Armory Sponsor
Posted: 11/6/2023 3:48:49 PM EDT
|
Let me preface this with the fact that I am a USPSA Open Division shooter that is very familiar with high pressure 9mm Major ammunition, which is well beyond typical 9mm powder charges. Do not copy my loads. This idea started several years ago after I saw the excellent gel performance of Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullets loaded by Underwood, and I was particularly impressed by how well they did through various barriers, from wood, to drywall and sheet steel, and even soft body armor. I knew that velocity was what was helping the 90gr +P+ version penetrate the soft armor, as I had seen the 90gr +P variant fail to penetrate the vest. I purchased a couple hundred of the 65gr Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender .355 bullets, found the Lehigh load data, which is no longer available but I believe it was 9.9gr of Silhouette that produced the highest velocities. I loaded these with CCI 550 primers in mixed nickel pated 9mm brass. Firing these from my stock CZ P10 C I exceeded the Lehigh listed velocity (which I believe was 1800fps) achieving an average of 1861fps from that 4.0" barrel. Accuracy was superb as well, bringing this group at 25 yards from a bench with a red dot.  This became my carry load from that day. My carry gun evolved slightly, adding a factory CZ threaded barrel and a Parker Mountain Machine compensator.  The compensator is extremely effective with those loads, which I have been carrying for the last couple of years. In fact, it is the softest shooting 9mm I have ever put through this gun. Fast forward a bit and I decided to place an order for more of the 65gr Xtreme Defender bullets. At this time Lehigh has introduced a 68gr version of the bullet that is made with a new pressure forming process, and the result is a very similar bullet that costs half as much. Along with this new, heavier version of the bullet comes reduced load data. They are now calling for 9.2gr max with Silhouette. Being the fan of high pressure that I am, I decided to use the Shell Shock Technologies NAS3 9mm cases. The company claims that these cases have been tested to over 50k PSI without failure. Perfect. I have fired quite a few of these cases with +P charge and had no concerns about pushing the envelope. I loaded a handful of these cases with the new 68gr XD bullet at the same 9.9gr charge of Silhouette and took them to the range.  This was the result.  Excellent. No pressure signs on the cases. Let's go a little further. 10.2gr of Silhouette  Almost there. A little bit of extrapolating and I went to 10.5gr of Silhouette.   There we go. In excess of 2,000fps and 600ft-lbs of energy. From a 4.61" barreled handgun. There were a couple of weird low velocities of 1918fps and 1985fps, with all of the other 11 shots falling in between 2,004 and 2,016 FPS. Throwing out those two oddballs gives an average of 2,010 FPS and 610 ft-lbs of energy. That exceeds even my hottest 9mm major loads, which are a 115gr JHP at 1,525 FPS and 594 ft-lbs, from a longer barrel. My typical 10mm loads fall in the 550-650ft-lb range, so this is significant.  These cases and primers still look fine. At this point I am not planning on going any further as that may bring me into the real danger zone, and there just is not enough room in the case to proceed without making a big powder mess on my press.  This picture shows the difference between a stock Glock 17 barrel on the left, and a stock CZ P10 C barrel on the right.  The CZ barrel has slightly more meat to it, and better case support. I don't think that I would have undertaken this quest with the Glock barrel. Edit: link to 8.5" and 16" velocities |
|
I’ve been using the 68 +P from Underwood. The difference in the weight of loaded mags is significant. I considered buying some of the bullets to load my own, but I wasn’t sure I had the right powder (what I have is too slow I think) and since I couldn’t find any decent load data, I thought it would be sorta pointless. Maybe not now. I really like this OP. 2000 fps is wicked out of a 9mm handgun!  -ZA |
|
Quoted: The way you are slinging powder on that Dillon, how do you expect a consistent load? Too hot for me to try. Any powder you see, other than what is in the grease on the case pusher, is all that spilled while loading over 150 rounds of this ammo. It is very minimal, especially since I have a roller indexer, roller shell plate bearing and the Arredondo shell stabilizer. |
|
Quoted: I’ve been using the 68 +P from Underwood. The difference in the weight of loaded mags is significant. I considered buying some of the bullets to load my own, but I wasn’t sure I had the right powder (what I have is too slow I think) and since I couldn’t find any decent load data, I thought it would be sorta pointless. Maybe not now. I really like this OP. 2000 fps is wicked out of a 9mm handgun! -ZA I use Silhouette in my 9mm major loads and I have a lot of confidence in it when pushing things. As a percentage, these are less overloaded than my 9mm major loads are. I am looking into ordering some ballistic gel to test this with. The extra velocity may have an unforseen consequence. |
|
awesome! Really curious if you'd be able to get to the point of elastic damage in a pistol round. That would change the equation some... Also would love to see these numbers out of a ~6" 1911 or PCC. When I was competing I was running minor and went kind of the opposite direction. I have a recipe somewhere with a 147gn bullet and 2.3gn powder 
|
|
Quoted: Are you using standard dies or did you buy the Shell Shock dies? I have the Shell Shock dies for when I reload the cases, but these cases are virgin, and likely will never be used again for high pressure loads. When reloading them I only use the sizing die, and I actually switched to the conical powder-through flare that came with my RL1100. I had a problem with using the standard expander, as no matter how much & cranked my Lee FCD down I could not get the case to tightly grab the bullet, and often the case would stick in the crimp ring and separate slightly when I lowered the ram. Since I stopped expanding, and switched back to my Dillon crimp die, everything is well. The Shell Shock sizing die does not size the cases down as much as the Dillon sizing dies I normally use, and since the Shell Shock case mouths have a chamfer to them it makes them load pretty smoothly with the slight boat tail on these bullets. I have not yet loaded them with a bullet that has a very square base, like a Federal HST, but I think it will go fine, because I only use Hornady seating dies in 9mm due to their centering collar keeps everything concentric. |
|
Quoted: I was reading their website. I like the spring loaded sizing die....thats clever It is quite effective at keeping the cases together. I have run some through a Dillon die and it does pull the bases apart slightly. Bullet seating and crimping can help push it together, but it just isn't ever the same again. |
|
Quoted: true that. Danm. Does the comp get a huge boost from the extra powder burning outside barrel? how is your muzzle flash? More powder means more gas, which is what makes a comp work. Silhouette is a flash suppressed powder, and I haven't seen much at all when shooting these loads. |
|
Quoted: I've got a ton of Shooter's World Major Pistol (my preferred 9mm powder). It's main use is for making major in 9mm. I load it fairly light, as I've gotten amazing accuracy with it. I don't know how it stacks up to Silhouette tho. -ZA Major Pistol is supposedly the same as Accurate #7, which I used to use in 9mm Major. I ran 10.5 under a 115gr JHP. I do not think you could physically get enough into a 9mm case to get into trouble with the 68gr Lehigh. 
|
|
I would only add that Ft/Lb is irrelevant in handgun chamberings. What does matter is ability to penetrate into and thru vitals and many (most) times achieve an exit. Having no idea of your possible intended targets, handguns achieve maximum horsepower not with lighter bullets at higher velocities but with: 1) Larger diameter bullets 2) Heavier bullets Of note is that, the largest mammals on earth are not (commonly) successfully killed with light for caliber higher velocity bullets but the biggest diameter, higher weight, largest meplat bullets at about the same velocity be it 357 mag or 475 Linebaugh. If you keep that weight and diameter but add velocity? It "may" be beneficial but may not. The Linebaugh symposiums proved that to the dismay of Mr. Linebaugh himself. The goal of reaching the magical (not really) 2000 fps "kill it now" velocity often cited (by small caliber advocates), doesn't really apply in handgun chamberings unless you're shooting a single shot rifle caliber gun. .44 Remington mag gets into (with the proper bullet at the proper velocity) the rifle class temp cavity damage according not to me but people who measure those things for a living as does (1880's) 45-70, and (1900) 12 gauge slugs. At much lower velocity than 2000 fps. There are a large number of pistol chamberings that bring much more power than the old .44 mag. But looking for high velocity, light bullet weight fast killing power as of current technology is a fools errand with a handgun. We know this because many, many people have and do kill things (large and small) with handguns and the efficiency of differing loads are all over the internet. The data on human size targets is also all out there. Bore diameter plus bullet weight kill harder and faster than light for caliber higher velocity in handgun rounds. Humans are much easier to kill, but those basics remain when you want to strike a hard blow to the target, at least for now. The monometal expanding bullets being the biggest exception to that rule. |
|
Quoted: Major Pistol is supposedly the same as Accurate #7, which I used to use in 9mm Major. I ran 10.5 under a 115gr JHP. I do not think you could physically get enough into a 9mm case to get into trouble with the 68gr Lehigh. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/74212/IMG_20231107_112916-3018976.jpg |
|
Quoted: 8.5" AR9 SBR velocities. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/74212/IMG_20231109_100554-3021231.jpg 655 ft-lbs energy. 16" AR9 velocities. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/74212/IMG_20231109_100612-3021230.jpg 809 ft-lbs energy. It was a struggle to get the velocity from the 16". I think the speed combined with the concave base made it very difficult to track. Neat. I figured the 8" would have a bit more punch considering the pistol velocities 16" really picked up the speed though |
|
Quoted: More powder means more gas, which is what makes a comp work. Silhouette is a flash suppressed powder, and I haven't seen much at all when shooting these loads. The NATO Reloading blog tested flash in a bunch of pistol powders, and strangely enough, ranking them for flash lines up with burn rates, but in the opposite way you would expect. The slower burning, the less flash. While I think its strange, this matches my own anecdotes, with rifles, too. Maybe slower powders have a greater tendency to have flash suppressants added? I also think Sil is a slower powder than people tend to think it is. I originally bought it for subs, but found it more suitable for hot loads and heavier bullets. Cool project, though. I’m not brave enough for it, nor do I have a suitable gun. |
|
Superb op. I have two boxes of the 65gr that I haven't used yet. See there is data for the 357 sig out there but what I'd really like to do is load them in my 9x25. Capacity of those cases must be similar to regular brass but stronger? Might get some just to confuse the bubbas at work. And I have never heard of PMM but they have some great stuff on their site so thanks for that too. |
|
Quoted: Superb op. I have two boxes of the 65gr that I haven't used yet. See there is data for the 357 sig out there but what I'd really like to do is load them in my 9x25. Capacity of those cases must be similar to regular brass but stronger? Might get some just to confuse the bubbas at work. And I have never heard of PMM but they have some great stuff on their site so thanks for that too. I've seen articles that say they have a very slightly reduced capacity and produce a slightly higher velocity. I know they are not as deep inside as a regular case, but their lack of taper does allow seating extra heavy/long bullets more easily. I killed a lot of brass reloading the 147gr HST because of its length and square base pushing out the case web. |
|
Quoted: It was a struggle to get the velocity from the 16". I think the speed combined with the concave base made it very difficult to track. Did you use a labradar for velocity? Curious if you used the rifle or pistol setting? Pistol only goes up to 1722fps so imagine rifle would be the best setting. How was accuracy? I get about 2160fps with 300blk w/110gr from a 8" barrel. Never imagined a 9mm getting close to that, even with a 45gr lighter payload. Very impressive! |
|
Quoted: Did you use a labradar for velocity? Curious if you used the rifle or pistol setting? Pistol only goes up to 1722fps so imagine rifle would be the best setting. How was accuracy? I get about 2160fps with 300blk w/110gr from a 8" barrel. Never imagined a 9mm getting close to that, even with a 45gr lighter payload. Very impressive! Yes, Labradar. The pistol setting didn't even try to track them even when I was under 1950fps, so I moved it to rifle and left it. The faster I pushed them the more failures to track that I experienced. It picked up about 1 in 3 shots, so I wasted quite a few. I had to adjust it so that the bullet was traveling slightly diagonally across the radar beam. I did not shoot them for groups while chronographing. I did previously out of the 8.5" SBR that was used for the chronographing and it put the 65gr and 9.9gr charge load into a roughly 1" 10 shot group at 25 yards (this is a particularly accurate 9mm barrel). Part of why I have been playing with the Lehigh is to see how close to 300BLK versatility I can get out of a suppressed 9mm SBR between subs and supers. |
|
Quoted: Yes, Labradar. The pistol setting didn't even try to track them even when I was under 1950fps, so I moved it to rifle and left it. The faster I pushed them the more failures to track that I experienced. It picked up about 1 in 3 shots, so I wasted quite a few. I had to adjust it so that the bullet was traveling slightly diagonally across the radar beam. I did not shoot them for groups while chronographing. I did previously out of the 8.5" SBR that was used for the chronographing and it put the 65gr and 9.9gr charge load into a roughly 1" 10 shot group at 25 yards (this is a particularly accurate 9mm barrel). Part of why I have been playing with the Lehigh is to see how close to 300BLK versatility I can get out of a suppressed 9mm SBR between subs and supers. Odd the labradar isn't picking all of them up. Have you tried a plug in kinetic trigger or mic? Might need it with a suppressor. I was having issues with the labradar picking up rounds, but figured out I accidentally set on doppler to trigger. 1"@25yds is great for 9mm or any other caliber. Nice to hear someone successfully pushing the limits of 9mm. Never heard of shell shock cases before this thread. Thanks for sharing! |
|
Quoted: Odd the labradar isn't picking all of them up. Have you tried a plug in kinetic trigger or mic? Might need it with a suppressor. I was having issues with the labradar picking up rounds, but figured out I accidentally set on doppler to trigger. 1"@25yds is great for 9mm or any other caliber. Nice to hear someone successfully pushing the limits of 9mm. Never heard of shell shock cases before this thread. Thanks for sharing! I have the parts to build a half dozen recoil triggers, I just haven't done it yet. I had frankly forgotten until now ?? I was not shooting suppressed when I was having the issues. It would trigger every time, but would say it was unable to track. Firing diagonally across the beam gave better results, but it of course wouldn't track as far out. |
|
Quoted: I have the parts to build a half dozen recoil triggers, I just haven't done it yet. I had frankly forgotten until now ?? I was not shooting suppressed when I was having the issues. It would trigger every time, but would say it was unable to track. Firing diagonally across the beam gave better results, but it of course wouldn't track as far out. I bought the parts too and somehow forgot where I put them. 
|
| Reminds me of these loads but with more energy. Awesome write-up!! If I had a non-glock 9mm, I would be tempted to replicate. |
|
Quoted: Believe it or not, there is minimal compression. The base of the 68gr bullet is concave, and not a whole lot of it is inside of the case. Photo from Lehigh. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/74212/IMG_20231107_035602-3018626.jpg Great info! When they were testing various bullet weight for the .458 Socom they just filled the case full with Reloader 7 and shot it, then looked for pressure signs. |
Armory Sponsor