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Sturdy vs. Brown vs. ??? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 1/12/2012 1:06:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mabuz][Edited]
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Ok, ok, I know there are countless "which safe" threads here and everywhere else, so I apologize for just adding to that, but I'm having a hard time getting what I feel is enough info to compare these two manufacturers. I thought I had it figured out, then I kept looking and shit happened.
I know we have some resident safe experts in this place, so anyone that can add valuable information, please do so. So to get down to business here:: I've been reading up on things for the past 4 months, trying to decide whom to go with, had it down to Sturdy due to the reviews of their quality and tolerances, but as OCD as I am when spending this much money on something, I have to be sure I've done enough research, so I looked around some more, and a few weeks ago I read some things about the Browns and am now back to undecided (at least between these two manufacturers). Both seem of high quality, tight tolerances, and thicker than most (in similar price ranges) solid steel plating for construction. I picked these two setups both because I'm interested in something like this, and they are about as close as you can get between two different manufacturer's configurations, and I want to keep a level field here when comparing safes. Lets look at Brown's 6048 safe (OD = 61"T x 49"W x 27.5"D; standard interior) against Sturdy's 4824 safe (OD = 60"T x 48"W x 24"D; painted option), both without fire lining (I chose the painted finish on the Sturdy b/c that's what I would be getting and since the Brown comes in a variety of colors standard; also the standard Brown interior is similar to Sturdy's easy out rack). If any of the info I have here is incorrect, please feel free to let me know and I will change things. I'm hoping to get an informative thread with factual information out of this comparison rather than just feelings on which safe is best b/c you spent your money on that one and you want to justify it. (Hopefully the formatting shows up ok for everyone's layouts.) I will highlight what I feel are the advantages to each safe, until good conversation (not bickering) shows otherwise. SPECS...........................................................STURDY:.............................................................................BROWN:............................. OD.........................................................60"T x 48"W x 24"D.................................................................61"T x 49"W x 27.5"D...................... ID.........................................................59.6"T x 47.6"W x 21"D...........................................................60"T x 48"W x 22"D...................... Weight.............................................................953 lbs.................................................................................1400 lbs............................. Body Construction.....................................5 Gauge Solid Steel Walls.......................................................1/4" Thick Solid Steel Walls............... Door Construction...........................................5/16" Steel Plate............................................................1/2" Thick Solid Steel Door................ Rating.............................................None (Presumed RSC Comparable)..............................................................B Rate Safe.......................... Price...............................................................$3,017...............................................................................$3,557................................ Shipping..........................................................Included..........................................................................$700-$800............................... Both safes are made in USA. Both have great door to body tolerances to help against prying (have seen the many pics of Sturdy's, have only read about Brown's however). Both have great warranties (Sturdy = lifetime, Brown = 50 years). Sturdy is a great safe at a good value, but does going from the 5 gauge (0.2092") bodied Sturdy to the 1/4" (0.2500") bodied and B-Rated Brown justify the difference in price? I would guess it may since everyone makes a huge deal about going from a standard 12 gauge (0.1046") body to Sturdy's standard 7 gauge (0.1793") body. (The extra 450 lbs of the Brown shows how much extra steel is used in making it.) Now, the Brown is a double door safe vs. Sturdy being a single wide door. Would a double door safe be less secure in the event of an attack, or would it be better than a single very wide door due to the possibility of flexure? I'll update as I learn more, and as others post. Thanks to everyone for helping out. ETAI - added freight/packaging estimate from Brown. ETAII - added Sturdy's solid steel thickness of their doors (5/16") |
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It's not really a good comparison because you're comparing a gun safe to a real safe. Once you get to a "true" B rate uninsulated safe with solid A36 1/4" body and 1/2" door, you're in commercial safe territory.
Built in the US isn't always a good thing, but there's cetainly nothing wrong with it here. Just make sure everything you put in it is US made too. 
The warranties mean very little in real life, although they make for great marketing. I do work for several manufacturers, and can tell you that the vast majority of warranty work that we perform is on electronic locks. I can also tell you that almost all of the claims, regardless of the reason, occur within the first year of ownership. 450 pounds worth of extra steel for a $500 difference is a great deal. Double doors can be just as secure as a single door, and on a wide safe, are better. A single wider door will swing further out than dual narrow doors. This can cause the safe to be tipsy, and will require more space to open once installed. |
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Thanks a1abdj, I appreciate the info. I was leaning the same way considering the B-Rated safe, just haven't really looked into anything with that type of rating much until recently, so I wasn't sure on if it was that much of a step up over what Sturdy offers, as far as being more secure or providing a little more resistance in event of an attack.
Either way I go, it will be a manual dial lock, not interested in electronics for something like this. |
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Out of the two you listed, I would go with Brown hands down.
Sturdy is nice, and they have a loyal following, but as was stated, the Brown B rated safe, for an extra $500 is a whole lot more peace of mind IMO. Sturdy claims to exceed the UL RSC requirements, but that only proves that they can meet them. They don't say they meet a higher level of UL rating because they don't. My pickup exceeds 500HP to the ground. Its actually only at 515-525HP, but it sounds cooler and better to say that it exceeds 500HP to the ground. The Brown is a B-rated Safe. Not a residential security container. For an extra $500, even if you have to pay shipping on top of the purchase price, its worth it. Or you can save yourself a lot of money, watch your local craigslists and such and pick up and actual safe, like a TL-30, and build your own interior. (What I am doing...) |
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The only person I know that owns both a Sturdy and a B rate Brown safe posts here and he says the Sturdy is the better safe of the two. Also, Sturdy uses A36 plate as a minimum but grade 50 steel when available which has a higher yield strength (50 KSI) than A36. The steel body thickness of the two are essentially equivalent especially if the Sturdy is grade 50 and the Brown is A36. Brown certainly has the Sturdy beat on door thickness but of the Brown safes I've seen, the tolerances and bolt support is far superior on the Sturdy safe. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but either are a good choice and I don't think you will regret buying whichever you choose.
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I'm the guy with both of the safes you asking about.
I think they're both good safes but the Sturdy has tighter tolerences and is a more thought out design (for the reasons that have been previously discussed.). The Brown is a typical no frills B rated burglary safe. In addition the charge to crate, and ship from Brown, were pretty substantial so you're going to need to add that to the equation. This can cause the safe to be tipsy,
Regardless of which on you get bolt it down! |
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Originally Posted By rockola: The only person I know that owns both a Sturdy and a B rate Brown safe posts here and he says the Sturdy is the better safe of the two. Also, Sturdy uses A36 plate as a minimum but grade 50 steel when available which has a higher yield strength (50 KSI) than A36. The steel body thickness of the two are essentially equivalent especially if the Sturdy is grade 50 and the Brown is A36. Brown certainly has the Sturdy beat on door thickness but of the Brown safes I've seen, the tolerances and bolt support is far superior on the Sturdy safe. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but either are a good choice and I don't think you will regret buying whichever you choose. Do you have detailed pics on the Brown? I've been curious about their bolt work for a while now. |
R.I.P. Jasper 12/23/2011
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
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Originally Posted By aklferris:
Originally Posted By rockola:
The only person I know that owns both a Sturdy and a B rate Brown safe posts here and he says the Sturdy is the better safe of the two. Also, Sturdy uses A36 plate as a minimum but grade 50 steel when available which has a higher yield strength (50 KSI) than A36. The steel body thickness of the two are essentially equivalent especially if the Sturdy is grade 50 and the Brown is A36. Brown certainly has the Sturdy beat on door thickness but of the Brown safes I've seen, the tolerances and bolt support is far superior on the Sturdy safe. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but either are a good choice and I don't think you will regret buying whichever you choose. Do you have detailed pics on the Brown? I've been curious about their bolt work for a while now. It's stout, I'll say that. I haven't seen a floating pic around of a Brown's interior linkage and bolt work - maybe for good reason. Same with Graffunder. I can tell you the bolt work is fully supported and welded, not a 1.5" locking bolt attached with a 3/8" bolt. Relockers are strung with a cable, along the lines of how Graffunder does theirs, but i don't think Brown randomizes the relocker position. |
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Originally Posted By krecon1: Graffunder doesn't mind showing off their inner workings:Originally Posted By aklferris: Originally Posted By rockola: The only person I know that owns both a Sturdy and a B rate Brown safe posts here and he says the Sturdy is the better safe of the two. Also, Sturdy uses A36 plate as a minimum but grade 50 steel when available which has a higher yield strength (50 KSI) than A36. The steel body thickness of the two are essentially equivalent especially if the Sturdy is grade 50 and the Brown is A36. Brown certainly has the Sturdy beat on door thickness but of the Brown safes I've seen, the tolerances and bolt support is far superior on the Sturdy safe. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but either are a good choice and I don't think you will regret buying whichever you choose. Do you have detailed pics on the Brown? I've been curious about their bolt work for a while now. It's stout, I'll say that. I haven't seen a floating pic around of a Brown's interior linkage and bolt work - maybe for good reason. Same with Graffunder. I can tell you the bolt work is fully supported and welded, not a 1.5" locking bolt attached with a 3/8" bolt. Relockers are strung with a cable, along the lines of how Graffunder does theirs, but i don't think Brown randomizes the relocker position. http://www.graffundersafes.com/doc/inside-graffunder.pdf ETA my observations: 1.) Holy sh*t that's some awesome armor around the lock 2.) Holy sh*t that's some awesome armor around the lock 3.) Holy sh*t th... well, you get my point 4.) It sure seems like a weak linkage for locking the hinge-side bolts (relies on the rack and pinion system to secure them). It must just be my lack of understanding. |
R.I.P. Jasper 12/23/2011
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
Lots of good info here everyone, I appreciate it. I'm not sure if it's making it easier or harder to decide though, haha. 
I updated my OP with an estimated shipping and crating charges from Brown...looks like it's going to run about 25% of the price of the safe extra to have it shipped as well, so that's something for me to think about. |
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Graffunder doesn't mind showing off their inner workings:
http://www.graffundersafes.com/doc/inside-graffunder.pdf Now you've done it. You posted an article written by one of the best known professional safe crackers on the planet, and he mentioned the AMSEC BF safes in the same breath as the Graffunders. He even said they "stood out". That won't go over well here.
It's stout, I'll say that. I haven't seen a floating pic around of a Brown's interior linkage and bolt work - maybe for good reason.
Here's some Brown boltwork: 
For comparison, here's some of the boltwork on one of the B rates I sell: 
And to compare two more safes to the other two previously mentioned, although taller units: SPECS............................................STURDY:..............................................................BROWN:............................................ZYKAN B RATE: OD..........................................60"T x 48"W x 24"D..............................................61"T x 49"W x 27.5"D...............................72"T x 42"W x 28"D ID........................................59.6"T x 47.6"W x 21"D...........................................60"T x 48"W x 22"D................................67.3"T x 39"W x 22"D Volume......................................34.5 Cubic Feet.....................................................36.5 Cubic Feet........................................33.5 Cubic Feet Weight..............................................953 lbs.................................................................1400 lbs.................................................1,550 lbs Body Construction............5 Gauge Solid Steel Walls..................................1/4" Thick Solid Steel Walls...............True Composite (1/8", Cast Fill, 1/8") Door Construction.......................5/16" Steel Plate.......................................1/2" Thick Solid Steel Door............................. True Composite Rating..........................None (Presumed RSC Comparable)....................................B Rate Safe.......................B Rate Safe - 90 Minute Fire (1/4", Cast Fill, Plate, Fill, Plate, Total 1/2") Price................................................$3,017...................................................................$3,557......................................................$2,550 Shipping........................................ Included.............................................................$700-$800.............................................. $400-$500 Total Cost Per Cubic Foot..............$87.45................................................................$119.37......................................................$91.04 Total Cost Per Pound.....................$3.17.....................................................................$3.11........................................................$1.96 AMSEC BF7250 OD...................................71.25"T x 50"W x 28"D ID.....................................67.25"T x 46"W x 21.25"D Volume............................38 Cubic Feet Weight.............................1,682 pounds Body................................True Composite (1/8" outer, Cast Fill, 16 Gauge inner) Door.................................3/8" Solid Plate (1/2" on smaller models) Rating..............................UL RSC, 90 minute fire Price.................................+/- $4,000 Shipping...........................+/- $500 Cost Per Cubic Foot.........$118.42 Cost Per Pound................$2.68 |
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Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Here's some Brown boltwork: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/brownboltwork.jpg snip... So, am I missing something, or is it safe to say that the support there is not entirely impressive? At least compared to some of the others you posted, or even a Sturdy? |
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So, am I missing something, or is it safe to say that the support there is not entirely impressive? At least compared to some of the others you posted, or even a Sturdy?
It's a common misconception to think that the inside of a gun safe (or any other safe for that matter) should look like the inside of a 100 year old bank vault. The boltwork's job is to keep the door from opening, and it doesn't really take a whole lot to do that. In addition, just like a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so are safes. There is no need to put incredible boltwork inside of a safe that could be sliced open in short order during a dedicated attack. The Brown, Sturdy, and the Zykan B rates all use supported boltwork. Just a few extra inches of support can generate thousands, or even tens of thousands of pounds worth of leverage. You won't twist the bolwork in any of these safes with simple hand tools. Although the AMSEC is not using supported boltwork, it is using bolts longer than others. These bolts then attach to C channel instead of angle, and are also designed to prevent twisting. |
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Normally, I just lurk and chuckle when the "experts" who did research and bought a gun safe or two argue with professional safe technicians and tell them they're wrong, etc. But this irrational love that some fanboys have for Sturdy, has almost caused my head to explode. Statements like the Sturdy has a "more thought out design" than a Brown safe are ridiculous and uninformed. So I had to register and make a post comparing a Sturdy safe to a real commercial safe like a Brown safe.
Steel thickness of body and door: Not much to say here. Brown safes use steel plate and have thicker steel in the body and door, period. Boltwork Brown: This design has been used by at least 4 commercial safe manufacturers over the past 30 years. It has been used in everything from "B rated" safes all the way up to UL tested TLTR-30x6 safes. It has stood the test of time and more importantly, tests by UL. It's a very simple design with only 2 bolts or screws (3 if you include the safe handle bolt). Because of it's simplicity and very few parts, it's one of the most reliable designs ever made. Each bolt is fully supported by two pieces of 1/4" thick steel. If you want thicker steel supports for each bolt, you would have to go up to a Graffunder which has one .50" thick steel support for it's bolts. As I mentioned earlier, safes with this boltwork have passed many UL tests so it's a fact that you cannot pry the bolts off. If you could, they would have not passed the tests done over the years. When you buy Brown's cheapest safe (B rated), you get the same boltwork used in their TL-30 safes. In the photos below you can see the thick welds and how the second supporting piece (the one on the left) is actually 4 inches long and has a 2 inch portion welded on the top and bottom to the door before it bends upward to hold the bolt. Sturdy: I think the boltwork design that Sturdy uses is solid and very strong. It's very simple and reliable and is very resistant to pry attacks. However, in my opinion, the fact that you cannot remove the cover and access the boltwork is a major flaw. I want to be able to inspect, clean and lubricate the boltwork of a safe. I don't care if it's the most reliable mechanical design in the history of the world, you should be able to inspect and service it. It doesn't matter what it is, if it's mechanical and has moving parts, you should have the option to open it up and inspect or service it. We're not talking about a sealed microchip with billions of transistors that cannot be serviced by an end user. We're talking about a few pieces of steel that are attached to each other and move back and forth. I also don't think that welding a cover onto the inside of the door so you cant access the boltwork is a revolutionary or ingenious design. I imagine the conversation where it came up went something like this: Steve: Hey Bob, I have this great idea! Bob: What is it? Steve: Let's make a super reliable and strong boltwork for our safes Bob: That sounds great Steve: But lets weld it shut so you can't access or service it! Bob: That makes perfect sense! Every engineer knows that you shouldn't be able to access moving parts for service or repair! There's a reason that just about every safe made today (and in the past) has a removable inside door cover so you can access the boltwork. Whether it's a safe that costs $500 or $200,000, they all have serviceable boltwork. Also, if you're going to compare a Sturdy to a Brown, you have to mention that the Sturdy boltwork (or safes for that matter) has never been tested by UL or one of the European testing groups. Door Frame Brown: As much as people talk about the boltwork, the door frame is just as (if not more) important. Brown safes have a door frame made of a solid 1" thick steel bar in all four sides of the frame. The frame is welded to the plate steel of the body on all four sides as well. This is one of the things that a1abdj was talking about when he said that you cannot compare a gun safe to a real commercial safe. Many companies like Amsec with their BLB/BLC and TL rated plate safes and Graffunder also use this frame design. Like the boltwork, whether you buy a b-rate safe or TL-30 from Brown, you get the same door frame. This is a C rated safe with a 1" thick door, so subtract half an inch for the B rate. Sturdy: No contest with the 1" thick solid steel frame of the Brown. Sturdy seems to be very proud of the extra bend in their 5 or 7 gauge door frames. Relockers Brown: Brown safes have 3 external relockers plus the one in the lock for a total of 4. Two of them are relocking bolts that will keep the safe locked even if the main boltwork has been retracted. Very few manufacturers offer this type of relocker and it's usually only found on higher-end safes like Graffunders and UL rated safes. So, if the lock is attacked, a thief will have 4 relockers to deal with before they could open the safe. As with most of the features of a Brown safe, whether you buy a b-rated model or a TL-30, you will get all 3 external relockers. Here you can see one of the 2 relocker bolts that will lock the safe even if the safe's boltwork has been retracted. This is where the 3 external relockers are connected to the back of the lock. Sturdy: Sturdy safes have one external relocker and one in the lock for a total of 2. Hardplates Brown: I've drilled both the standard Sturdy hardplate and the standard Brown ball-bearing (non-TL) hardplate. I had to use a much more expensive bit to drill the Brown safe. Sturdy has an upgraded hardplate option that should be pretty hard to drill, but it voids part of the warranty. With Brown safes, on a B or C rated model, you can get an upgraded hardplate that is used on their TL-15 and TL-30 safes (tested by UL) that does not void the warranty. Locking Bolts Brown: Brown safes have hardened steel bolts. Not as good as Graffunder's stainless steel bolts, but better than mild steel. Sturdy: Sturdy uses mild steel bolts that are not hardened. I've cut a couple of them in a minute or so with a regular hack saw when they we're sticking out with the boltwork retracted and hitting the door frame. Warranties Sturdy has a lifetime warranty and Brown's is 50 years. The Brown warranty is much better if you want an electronic lock. The Sturdy warranty will be shortened to 2 years if you choose an e-lock and you will have to pay for a locksmith to open your safe if it fails (only if it's locked obviously) after 2 years. Brown will pay to have the safe opened and the lock replaced for the full 50 years. Door Gap: The Sturdy door gap is smaller than the Brown and with good reason. The Sturdy uses a thin bent steel frame and a thinner door so a small gap is more important. Brown's 1" thick solid steel frame and solid steel plate door .50" thick minimum means that you won't be able to pry it regardless of the 0.04-0.07 gap. There's a reason that Graffunder's cost a lot more than Brown and have incredibly low tolerances. If you want a real safe with awesome craftsmanship and tolerances than definitely get a Graffunder. But the security of the Brown is not affected and it has still passed UL's tests. Company: Brown: A real safe manufacturer that also makes gun safes What can Brown do for you? You want a 20 ton radiation-proof vault door for your nuclear accelerator experiments? No problem! When can you accept delivery? You want a vault door with 5” thick steel plate and 2” thick copper plate and 1” thick manganese hardened steel? Bam, done! You want to spend $100,000+ on safe because you’re bored of paying soccer moms to fight each other for money? Sure, will you be paying with cash or gold bars? Is your ex-wife handy with power tools and you need a TL-30 safe to keep your doll collection safe? No problem! Just aqquired an old bank building and you want the 30-ton vault door restored and installed in your secret island fortress? Done!!! I'm not suggesting that they're the best in the world or anything like that. In fact, in the world of high security safes and vaults, Brown is a very small fish and cannot be compared and is not capable of competing with giants like ISM, Rosengrens, Chubb, etc. Some companies have been making safes and vaults for 150 years. Sturdy: A former toolbox company turned gun safe manufacturer. They will be happy to make you whatever size gun safe or door you need as long as it’s made out of thin mild steel. I'm also not trying to say that Sturdy makes crappy safes. I think they make a good solid basic gun safe that's better than most cheap gun safes and imports. They offer a good value and are a great option for some people. But they are not comparable and are not in the same class as real commercial safes so lets not get crazy with it and suggest that they are. No amount of videos they make with forklifts and crowbars will change that fact. On a similar note, Brown makes quality commercial safes at a reasonable price that are a good option for some people. OP, I hope this information is helpful. |
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I'm also not trying to say that Sturdy makes crappy safes.
It sounds like that exactly what you are saying. Oh by the way, welcome to the forum 
I find it hard to believe this post isn't by you a1abdj but I'll bite anyway. Since you have the camera out, let's see the space between the door and body on that Brown. |
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I find it hard to believe this post isn't by you a1abdj .
Perhaps you don't recall, but I'm not exactly the biggest Brown fan out there. There's certainly no reason I'd be in here touting their products. Since you have the camera out, let's see the space between the door and body on that Brown.
I don't own a Brown, so there's nothing for me to take a photo of. However, this subject has come up before. The door gap isn't always a huge deal, especially as the steel gets thicker. Making thick steel fit tightly is expensive. That's one of the many reasons that the Browns cost less than the Graffunders. |
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Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I find it hard to believe this post isn't by you a1abdj .
Perhaps you don't recall, but I'm not exactly the biggest Brown fan out there. There's certainly no reason I'd be in here touting their products. Since you have the camera out, let's see the space between the door and body on that Brown.
I don't own a Brown, so there's nothing for me to take a photo of. However, this subject has come up before. The door gap isn't always a huge deal, especially as the steel gets thicker. Making thick steel fit tightly is expensive. That's one of the many reasons that the Browns cost less than the Graffunders. Well if it wasn't you, then sorry. I just couldn't imagine someone has been "lurking" around this forum then post a lengthy attack against a supporter to this website. Nice photos whoever posted them. Your argument doesn't convince me on Brown's B rated safe. It's not a TL rated safe we are talking about though in fact I don't think Brown offers TL rated safes (I.e., Safes that actually carry UL's TL rating) so they can construct them in any fashion they wish and claim whatever they want ... I could be wrong but I can't recall seeing any with actually tool ratings. |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
I'm also not trying to say that Sturdy makes crappy safes.
It sounds like that exactly what you are saying. Oh by the way, welcome to the forum
I find it hard to believe this post isn't by you a1abdj but I'll bite anyway Yes, it's all part of his evil conspiracy to create multiple accounts and educate people about safes. Since you're obviously paranoid, why don't you pm a mod and ask them where my IP address and his are coming from. It's just too crazy to believe that two people who know what their talking about might reach similar conclusions. It's not my fault if you think I'm making the Sturdy look bad, all I'm doing is compared to a Brown. I did not want to make the comparison (as there is no comparison) but it was you and your fellow gun safe expert btn13 who compared them and said how much better the Sturdy was. As for you caring so much about the door gap (The one thing that Sturdy has that's "better" than Brown), standby, I will take some pics. |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
I don't think Brown offers TL rated safes (I.e., Safes that actually carry UL's TL rating) so they can construct them in any fashion they wish and claim whatever they want ... I could be wrong but I can't recall seeing any with actually tool ratings.
Well I guess since you don't think they do than they must not? They do, if you don't believe me, ask them. On their website, it clearly says "TL-15 and TL-30" brown safe I've even gotten quotes for TL safes from them. But then again, don't take my word for it (I mean what the hell would I know), ask them |
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Originally Posted By jimbojones21:
As for you caring so much about the door gap (The one thing that Sturdy has that's "better" than Brown), standby, I will take some pics. Looking forward to the pics. Ill bite my tongue for a little longer here, as some aspects of your last post seemed more than a bit biased. But hey, thats why I asked for opinions too, because Im not entirely sure if the Brown is worth the extra 25% more than the Sturdy. Keep the info coming though, Im far from an "expert", but when I read things from people arguing against "fan boys" an the such, I have to wonder how genuine their views really are. Make an argument, but leave the elementary school level taunts out of things. Your post would have carried more weight if that were the case. |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
Your argument doesn't convince me on Brown's B rated safe. You can lead a horse to water........ Here's the Brown door gap, but please also address all the ways that the Brown is far superior. You know all the silly things I mentioned and provided photos for like relockers, boltwork, door frames, hardplate, UL testing, uses the same boltwork as TRTL safes. You know, silly things. And here's the door gap of another brand ( US Security) TL-15 safe |
| Here's a thread where a Brown Safe employee states that they do make TL rated and tested safes: Link |
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Originally Posted By Mabuz:
Originally Posted By jimbojones21:
As for you caring so much about the door gap (The one thing that Sturdy has that's "better" than Brown), standby, I will take some pics. Looking forward to the pics. Ill bite my tongue for a little longer here, as some aspects of your last post seemed more than a bit biased. But hey, thats why I asked for opinions too, because Im not entirely sure if the Brown is worth the extra 25% more than the Sturdy. Keep the info coming though, Im far from an "expert", but when I read things from people arguing against "fan boys" an the such, I have to wonder how genuine their views really are. Make an argument, but leave the elementary school level taunts out of things. Your post would have carried more weight if that were the case. I'm not a safe expert but jimbojones21 posted compelling arguments as to why the brown safe is better, if someone posts arguments for the sturdy safe I am open to listen |
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JimboJones21- Let me be the first person to say "thank you"! You posted by far the most detailed information I have seen on Brown safes. I am interested in either a Sturdy or a Brown when I get my own house, and the only difference really knew of before you and a1 posted some pics was the door and body thickness (comparing Brown's basic weapons safes, that is). I enjoy doing research on my areas of interest (I guess those 8 years at the university and the "Dr" in front of my name prove it). However, it's hard to come by such information, presumably since I'm not an industry "insider". You've convinced me that there is quite a difference. I especially like how the relocking cables on the Brown are designed to be pushed off their posts when the spindle is hammered. As for the Brown not having an external relocker attached to the back of the lock, I figured maybe S&G's FOIL mechanism was supposed to negate the need for one (I have seen gun safes with those external mechanisms, but I thought those used cheaper S&G locks (6641?) that may not have had the FOIL mechanism). Thanks for setting that straight. You may have seen btn13 mention that he owns both a Sturdy and a Brown, and that he recommends the Sturdy from an end-user point of view. He has given the difference in door gap as his reason. Cost/benefit surely came into play as well for him. On another note, the author of the paper I linked to above is impressed that the Graffunder's key change hole is protected by an allen screw, preventing it from being scoped. While certainly an academically neat idea, is this honestly a realistic method used to attack safes? I can't imagine a) S&G leaving this vulnerability exposed, or b) anyone but the most professional of thieves trying to do this (who would surely have more effective methods). thief 1: Hey, wanna break into place xxxxxx and cut open the safe? thief 2: Sure, but lets buy an expensive borosope and scope the key change hole instead. Thanks again. ETA: BTW, awesome first post! That one puts you in the top 0.01%. |
R.I.P. Jasper 12/23/2011
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
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rockola- I think you just need to pause and take a deep breath, then re-read what our new member wrote. The only thing he wrote that I could see as a possible attack against Sturdy is that they started out making toolboxes. The entirety of his post was to show that Brown exceeds Sturdy in many ways. Of course, this also includes things like price (not good) and weight (not good for shipping cost and installation issues, good if you don't want to bolt down the safe but want it to still stay put). Taking everything I see hear at face value (i.e. that this new source is 100% correct with all information provided), I think most people that have done their research will still agree whole-heartedly that Brown and Sturdy each have their niche in regard to firearms security. Most people are unable or unwilling to pay the significant base price of a Brown, let alone the average 25% premium attached to shipping and installing something that weighs as much as a car. No one in their right mind would plan to pay the installation premium twice (e.g. someone that knows they will be moving within a few years). Sturdy may fill the need of people in these situations very well, and I think our new friend will agree with me. |
R.I.P. Jasper 12/23/2011
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
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Originally Posted By aklferris:
JimboJones21- Let me be the first person to say "thank you"! Thank you! It took me some time today to take the pictures and write everything up. I have no skin in this game and if OP gets a Brown or Sturdy then that's great and that's what fits his needs. That's the whole point, people need to find a product that works for their them and one safe brand or model does not fit all. But they need to have facts and information in front of them to make that decision. OP got the answer from a1 but I decided to make a detailed post to show why he said you could not compare a sturdy to a real commercial safe like a Brown. Originally Posted By aklferris:
You may have seen btn13 mention that he owns both a Sturdy and a Brown, and that he recommends the Sturdy from an end-user point of view. He has given the difference in door gap as his reason. And that's his opinion and I respect it. However, there are opinions and then there are expert opinions by people in the industry who work with safes every day. They have seen thousands of safes and boltworks and designs. They have seen safes that have been attacked by burglars, safes that have been fires, safes that have malfunctioned, etc. The opinion of these people should count for more than Joe Blow gun safe buyer. From what I've read in most gun forums, this is not case and the actual experts spend all their time arguing with people who quite frankly know almost nothing about safes. There's another thing that some people don't get and that's the difference between opinion and fact. You cannot argue with opinions trying to go against facts. Most of what I wrote in my post is a matter of fact and not opinion. Heck, I included photos of measurements with a Mitutoyo caliper In all seriousness, if I do include an opinion, I try to preface it with "in my opinion". I am not perfect and I don't always do this, but I try.
Originally Posted By Mabuz:
Make an argument, but leave the elementary school level taunts out of things. Your post would have carried more weight if that were the case. I have a sarcastic sense of humor so I apologize if I came across as petty or rude in my post. I think most people take themselves too seriously and you don't have to defend a safe to the death just because you bought it
Originally Posted By aklferris:
Graffunder's key change hole is protected by an allen screw, preventing it from being scoped. While certainly an academically neat idea, is this honestly a realistic method used to attack safes? I can't imagine a) S&G leaving this vulnerability exposed, or b) anyone but the most professional of thieves trying to do this (who would surely have more effective methods). This is not a realistic attack for the average safe owner to be concerned with. It requires training, experience, expensive equipment and restricted knowledge about the safe. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to do, even for someone with all of those things. You still have to drill the safe and know exactly where to drill, then you have to know how to use the optical equipment. Then, you have to know what you're seeing and how to translate that to a working combination. Don't get me wrong, it's great that Graffunder protects their safes from this attack. Yet another reason why you should buy one of their safes if you can afford it. Originally Posted By aklferris:
I think most people that have done their research will still agree whole-heartedly that Brown and Sturdy each have their niche in regard to firearms security. Most people are unable or unwilling to pay the significant base price of a Brown, let alone the average 25% premium attached to shipping and installing something that weighs as much as a car. No one in their right mind would plan to pay the installation premium twice (e.g. someone that knows they will be moving within a few years). Sturdy may fill the need of people in these situations very well, and I think our new friend will agree with me. Absolutely I agree with this. Everyone should get the product that suites their needs. I owned a Sturdy awhile back when I was living in an apartment. It suited my needs best at the time, so I bought it. But I knew exactly what it was and I didn't try to argue that it was something else. Don't forget that the most important factor of all in the decision of which safe to buy, is the value of the items that you're keeping in the safe. These are the general guidelines put forth by insurance companies (wording copied from a1's site): RSC: Residential Security Container. The minimum rating which should be used to protect assets from theft. This rating is usually not accepted for business use. Ability to withstand 5 full minutes of rigorous prying, punching, chiseling, and tampering attacks by UL technicians with a hammer and screwdriver. B Rate: Usually the safe door is 1/2 inch steel plate, and the safe body is 1/4 inch steel plate. Approximate insurance rating for up to $2,000 cash or liquid assets, or up to $10,000 in merchandise. C Rate: Usually the safe door is 1 inch steel plate, and the safe body is 1/2 inch steel plate. Approximate insurance rating for up to $5,000 cash or liquid assets, or up to $50,000 in merchandise. TL-15 (E Rate): Successfully resist entry for a net assault time of 15 minutes when attacked with common hand tools, picking tools, mechanical or portable electric tools, grinders, drills, or pressure devices. Approximate insurance rating for up to $10,000 cash or liquid assets, or up to $100,000 in merchandise. DEA approved for drug storage. TL-30 (F Rate): Same as TL-15 for a time period of 30 minutes. Approximate insurance rating for up to $30,000 cash or liquid assets, or up to $300,000 in merchandise. DEA approved for drug storage. |
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Originally Posted By jimbojones21:
Originally Posted By Mabuz:
Make an argument, but leave the elementary school level taunts out of things. Your post would have carried more weight if that were the case. I have a sarcastic sense of humor so I apologize if I came across as petty or rude in my post. I think most people take themselves too seriously and you don't have to defend a safe to the death just because you bought it
No need for apologies, if anything I should probably apologize for being a grump in my last post. I had just got done busting my ass around the house for most of the day and was in a less than good mood. I usually tend to appreciate sarcasm for some reason. Thanks for the pics though, they do help out a good deal. Looking for photos of Brown safes is quite a task for some reason, so I appreciate it, and your honest review of Brown's quality. |
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Normally, I just lurk and chuckle when the "experts" who did research and bought a gun safe or two argue with professional safe technicians and tell them they're wrong, etc.
I guess it's statements like this that make me chuckle, we are talking about a box; this isn't rocket science. Sturdy safes have one relocker in the sealed boltwork and one in the lock for a total of 2. There is no external relocker connected to the back of the lock and you will only have to deal with the one inside the lock. This is a serious flaw and it means I can show up for a job to open a locked Sturdy and if I forgot my drill, I can still open it. Almost every safe made today, except for the very cheapest ones, have an external relocker connected to the back of the lock. There is no reason not to have one and every safe should have at least one.
Didn't you say that you drilled through a Sturdy hardplate? The relocker is located behind the hardplate not in the sealed boltwork. This is the reason the locksmith entry portion of the warranty is voided if you upgrade the hardplate. As to which is better the 3 external on Brown vs the 1 external on Sturdy. Well the 3 external relocks on the Brown on only behind that mild A36 1/2" plate so assuming the person had a drill bit that could drill through the A36 and also the hardplate to break the glass it shouldn't take him too much longer to put three more holes in that mild steel to deactivate the relocks. Here's a letter from an owner who had a fellow safe tech like presumably you are deactivate Sturdy's relock after a burglary attempt. MITCHELL 11/21/2009 10:12:05 PM: "So, my house was robbed. The (burglars) went at the safe with a crowbar that in retrospect, should have been in the safe. The (burglars) didn't think to use the impact drill or 3" grinder on the floor next to it, rather they tried to file down the hinge with a hand file. It seems they gave up after about 8.7 seconds...I couldn't get in and had to call a locksmith. One of the relockers had been activated by the (burglars) trying to pound on the combination shaft. This guy breaks safes every day and it took him 4.5 hours to get in. He said it was the best gun safe he's ever opened. He also opens jewelry safes and much harder things to open. It was entertaining to watch the opening and repair. To repair it, we replaced the hardplate and put bearing steel in the holes of the door."
So 4.5 hours to deactivate tells me it's a pretty good location to put a relock. Door Gap:
The Sturdy door gap is smaller than the Brown and with good reason. The Sturdy uses a thin bent steel frame and a thinner door so a small gap is more important. Brown's 1" thick solid steel frame and solid steel plate door .50" thick minimum means that you won't be able to pry it regardless of the 0.04-0.07 gap. There's a reason that Graffunder's cost a lot more than Brown and have incredibly low tolerances. If you want a real safe with awesome craftsmanship and tolerances than definitely get a Graffunder. But the security of the Brown is not affected and it has still passed UL's tests. The reason the door gap is smaller is because Sturdy have a tight enough control of their process to make it that way just like Graffunder does; obviously Brown isn't quite there. If there is a gap in the door and especially if the door is not recessed, there is a chance it can be pried open. How would I do it? A sledge hammer with a couple wedges to open up the gap to where I could put 1 or 2 Enerpac 14 ton hydraulic spreaders (I have 5 of these available to me) in the gap now that 1" steel door stop on the body is helping me tear through that thin 1/4" plate that supports and guides the bolts. I do agree pry bars can't open this door but it is no problem for hand held hydraulic tools like Enerpac on others make. You can't do this type of attack on Sturdy's door because it is impossible to get it started due to the recessed door and the tight tolerances around the door. ... Sturdy uses A36 plate as a minimum but grade 50 steel when available which has a higher yield strength (50 KSI) than A36. The steel body thickness of the two are essentially equivalent especially if the Sturdy is grade 50 and the Brown is A36. Brown certainly has the Sturdy beat on door thickness but of the Brown safes I've seen, the tolerances and bolt support is far superior on the Sturdy safe. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but either are a good choice and I don't think you will regret buying whichever you choose.
This is what I said earlier and I stand by it. I had forgot about the discussion on the Brown having TL rated tested safes, I see I was even involved in that discussion. One more thing, Summit Denali bolt supporting plate is 3/4" so you don't need to buy a Graffunder to get a thicker bolt support than the 1/4" offered by Brown in and around this class of safe. |
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Jimbo,
If you haven't figured it out yet, these guys really like to argue about gun safes. They are very, very concerned happy customers that want others to know the merits of their particular choice for gun security. It reminds me of a guy with a Prius, a guy with a Volt, and a guy with a Geo Metro having a heated debate over which guy's car would win the Indy 500. Along comes a professional driver in his race car, and the three of them can't help but point out that his million dollar race car isn't really much different than what they're driving. The subject will turn towards things that aren't really important to winning the race, like cargo room, rear wipers, electric heated seats, etc. It will then be claimed that since the cars are all pretty much equal, but the Prius has cupholders, it should be the first choice of anybody in the market for a race car. 
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JimboJones21, thank you and welcome, I hope you stick around and contribute regularly. I found the post very informative, and by my take it seemed factual and not opinion based. I really like the Sturdy product and think it is miles ahead of most of the RSC's out there, and this is just MY OPINION based on 7 gauge steel vs. 10 or 12, gauge, supported bolts vs. non-supported, tight tolerances on the doors to resist prying, etc.
For whatever reason (likely because the reader spent their hard earned money on whatever is being attacked), people on the various forums get REALLY touchy about gun safes and dogmatism runs wild. The market sets the price for quality and features, pay more get more. If Brown cost more then Sturdy I would expect a list of upgrades you are getting for the extra money. When you jump to a TL-15 over a B or C rate obviously you get even more. Thanks again, some of the better information I have seen. P.S. Where is Snop? |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
Normally, I just lurk and chuckle when the "experts" who did research and bought a gun safe or two argue with professional safe technicians and tell them they're wrong, etc.
I guess it's statements like this that make me chuckle, we are talking about a box; this isn't rocket science. It's not rocket science, but there are people in the industry who design and work with safes and vaults that have graduate engineering degrees. Throughout history, some of the people who invented locks that are still in use today were geniuses and incredible engineers and designers. You may think it's just "a box", but there's a lot more to it than that. It takes many years and lots of learning and practice to be proficient. There are thousands of different safes designs and hundreds of different locks. Based on your posts that I've read, you know very little about safes. Don't worry, I'll show you point by point all the things that you were wrong about in your last post (I don't have time to do this for all your posts, both here and on that other site that banned you for arguing endlessly with experts). But first, let me say that you are correct and the Sturdy has the external relocker behind the hardplate and not in the boltwork. I have not seen one in years and I will edit my first post to reflect the correct information. Let's begin: Originally Posted By rockola:
As to which is better the 3 external on Brown vs the 1 external on Sturdy. Well the 3 external relocks on the Brown on only behind that mild A36 1/2" plate so assuming the person had a drill bit that could drill through the A36 and also the hardplate to break the glass it shouldn't take him too much longer to put three more holes in that mild steel to deactivate the relocks. This statement from you is a perfect illustration of why someone who knows nothing about safes should not be arguing with experts and giving other people advice about safes. First off, in the photo I posted of the back of the lock on the Brown safe, you can clearly see the external relocker to the right of the lock. Since they are just simple "boxes" I would have expected an expert like yourself to notice it. So, if you had noticed the relocker, you would also know that the relocker is behind the hardplate just like the lock. This is pretty much standard across the industry and every burglary safe worth buying (like the Sturdy ) will have the external relocker next to the lock behind hardplate. And then you claim that the Brown external relockers (the 2 of them) that are not behind hardplate are somehow not contributing much to the security of the safe. Seriously? Burglary 101: Time is money! The more relockers the thief has to drill the longer it will take him to get the safe open. Not only does he/she have to drill each of them, but most importantly, they have to know where to drill. To get this you would contact the manufacturer with proof that you are a licensed locksmith or safe tech, and then they would give you the drill points. This information is restricted and no safe manufacturer makes it available to the public.
So in summary, with respect to the external relockers(and there also one in each lock): Brown: 3 Sturdy: 1 No rational person can argue that somehow it's better to have less security features, but I can't wait for your reply where you tell me about the magical Sturdy external relocker. Originally Posted By rockola:
Here's a letter from an owner who had a fellow safe tech like presumably you are deactivate Sturdy's relock after a burglary attempt. MITCHELL 11/21/2009 10:12:05 PM: "So, my house was robbed. The (burglars) went at the safe with a crowbar that in retrospect, should have been in the safe. The (burglars) didn't think to use the impact drill or 3" grinder on the floor next to it, rather they tried to file down the hinge with a hand file. It seems they gave up after about 8.7 seconds...I couldn't get in and had to call a locksmith. One of the relockers had been activated by the (burglars) trying to pound on the combination shaft. This guy breaks safes every day and it took him 4.5 hours to get in. He said it was the best gun safe he's ever opened. He also opens jewelry safes and much harder things to open. It was entertaining to watch the opening and repair. To repair it, we replaced the hardplate and put bearing steel in the holes of the door."
So 4.5 hours to deactivate tells me it's a pretty good location to put a relock. Nice anecdote! I'm assuming you have one where this same guy tried to open a Brown that had been attacked. You don't? OK, well than as a matter of comparing the two safes, this is irrelevant. However let me educate you about burglurized safes and their openings by safe techs. But first off, 4.5 hours like a long time to me to open the safe, but I wasn't there and I don't have any information about the opening so I have no place to comment on it. Back to burglarized safes. They will usually take much longer to open than a safe with a lost combination. That is why it costs more to open them when they have been attacked. You cannot use this to determine how long the safe will resist attack by someone who knows what they're doing. If you could, then Sturdy should call Underwriters Laboratories and tell them to get their TL-270 rating ready! As an example, a TL-30 that can resist attack for only 30 minutes might take a whole day to open or more after it's been attacked. This doesn't change the fact that it has been tested to offer 30 minutes of protection. Originally Posted By rockola:
The reason the door gap is smaller is because Sturdy have a tight enough control of their process to make it that way just like Graffunder does; obviously Brown isn't quite there. Wow! Where to begin? I'll start with Sturdy being compared to Graffunder. I'm speechless, I hope the absurdity of this statement in not lost on readers of this thread. If you have any doubt why this is a ridiculous comparison, just read that PDF about Graffunder posted earlier in the thread. Now, on to the statement of "Sturdy have a tight enough control of their process....obviously Brown isn't quite there." Yea, totally, as a safe company Brown is not quite there yet and can't compete with the big boy Sturdy. Hopefully they'll "get there" and improve their "process" after their done building real safes and vaults and things like 20 ton radiation proof vault doors for nuclear research. Maybe they'll stop and figure it out after they're done making vault doors for the government. Maybe they'll get "there" after they've stopped making Underwriters Laboratory tested TL-15 and TL-30 safes. This fixation that the Sturdy homers have with the small gap between the door and frame is important for their safes because the steel is thin and the frame is HOLLOW WITH ONLY BENT 5 OR 7 GAUGE STEEL. If you are making real plate safes, it really doesn't matter and will only increase the cost of the safe, which is why Brown won't make it tighter. Again, as has been mention a zillion times, Graffunder makes real plate safes with low tolerances in the door gap and they cost a lot more than a Brown. Brown safes have passed UL tests with that door gap so there is no security reason for them to increase it. It falls right in the range of typical commercial safes like the Amsec plate safes. Yesterday I even posted photos of another company's TL-15 plate safe with a 1" door frame and a gap larger than the Brown. So since certain people are obsessed with the gap, I will indulge them and engage in this rigorous and most important debate. Originally Posted By rockola:
If there is a gap in the door and especially if the door is not recessed, there is a chance it can be pried open. How would I do it? A sledge hammer with a couple wedges to open up the gap to where I could put 1 or 2 Enerpac 14 ton hydraulic spreaders (I have 5 of these available to me) in the gap now that 1" steel door stop on the body is helping me tear through that thin 1/4" plate that supports and guides the bolts. I do agree pry bars can't open this door but it is no problem for hand held hydraulic tools like Enerpac on others make. That's great that you have a hydraulic spreader (sorry "access to 5!). You know who else has them? UL testers and they use them on tests of TL-15 and higher safes. If you're wondering why I'm bringing up UL testing when talking about a B Rate safe? Then I guess you didn't read my first post where I talk about the boltwork design and it's history and how those same "thin" 1/4" plate supports hold the bolts on Brown's TL safes. And what exactly makes them "thin"? Have you seen at least the technical pictures and drawings of the boltwork of hundreds of safes made and tested all over the world? Many other safes that pass all kinds of burglary tests have thinner supports for than the Brown. It's funny how on the Brown .25" thick steel is "thin" when that's thicker than the .20" thick(or .19 for 7 gauge) body and door frame of a Sturdy safe. Heck, it's almost as thick as the .31" door of the sturdy! Let's talk a little more about the "thin" steel bolt supports of the Brown safe. The outer 1/4" thick support (right side if you're looking at my photos)on a 61" tall safe is 68" long and 2" wide. This is welded to the .50" thick plate door. The inner (left side if you're looking at my photos) 1/4" supports run 18" long by 2" wide, but because each support is bent and 2" of it lays flat and is welded to the safe door, you also have another 10" of welded steel on the top and bottom. So now your claiming you can "tear through that thin 1/4" plate that supports and guides the bolts" of a Brown safe and open it with "no problem". Fantastic! Please do so and make a video to show everyone. Where I come from we call a claim like that with no evidence "pulling something out of your  ". I'm not saying that's it's impossible, I'm just saying that claims introduced without evidence can be summarily dismissed. If it is possible, then just imagine what the tools would do to a Sturdy with it's .20" thick frame (vs 1" for Brown) and .31" thick door (vs .50" for Brown.
Originally Posted By rockola:
You can't do this type of attack on Sturdy's door because it is impossible to get it started due to the recessed door and the tight tolerances around the door. This is perhaps the most ridiculous statement from the whole post. So, let me get this straight, you can use a wedge and sledgehammer on the Brown to create a gap between solid 1" thick steel welded on all 4 sides to the .25" plate body, but you can't use the same tools on a Sturdy with a .20 thick door frame and only .31" thick door??????????? Because it's "recessed door with tight tolerances"????? I don't care if the gap is only 0.00000005 wide, forget the .31" thick door plate, all you have to do is move .20" thick bent steel with NOTHING behind it but air to the side. That's like saying if you take a 1" or even half inch thick solid steel bar and a .20" thick hollow steel tube, and hit both with a sledgehammer and and metal wedges and chisels, the hollow tube will be less bent or deformed. It doesn't matter that it's recessed, it's still hollow .20" thick steel! I guess Sturdy uses special air that gives the hollow frame the same support as a solid steel one. I must have missed the days in my physics courses where we discussed how a thinner hollow object has more strength and mass than a solid object of the same material and size. Again, I think this whole gap debate is ridiculous and it's a established fact that the thinner the metal, the more important it is to have a small gap. I made a first post with lots of facts and information, logical arguments, and photos and all I get back is "well the sturdy has a smaller door gap so it's a better safe". OK, that's fabulous but that doesn't address all the other areas that I clearly demonstrated where the Brown is superior. I don't know what else to post. It's great that you found a safe that you really love and think is awesome. I hope everyone finds that. But please don't make arguments for it that defy the laws of physics. |
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Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Jimbo, If you haven't figured it out yet, these guys really like to argue about gun safes. They are very, very concerned happy customers that want others to know the merits of their particular choice for gun security. It reminds me of a guy with a Prius, a guy with a Volt, and a guy with a Geo Metro having a heated debate over which guy's car would win the Indy 500. Along comes a professional driver in his race car, and the three of them can't help but point out that his million dollar race car isn't really much different than what they're driving. The subject will turn towards things that aren't really important to winning the race, like cargo room, rear wipers, electric heated seats, etc. It will then be claimed that since the cars are all pretty much equal, but the Prius has cupholders, it should be the first choice of anybody in the market for a race car.
That's a perfect analogy. I know that some gun safe owners like to argue ad nauseam about how awesome their gun containers are, but when I respond, I'm not trying to convince the person who posted the incorrect information or argument. I'm trying to make sure that other readers have more good information and learn more about safes (which I happen to think are awesome . As you've said before, there is no other group of safe buyers that are targeted by the safe makers with dog and pony shows and over-the-top advertising and claims like gun safe buyers.
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I'd say brown just because that's the brand that I've been drooling over for over a year. I plan to replace my Champion with their smallest double door safe once I save the money. My other optiion is to buy a used TL-15 and then just build my own gun racks inside. Amsec or graffunder are also good options. I like the idea of buying my next safe from a company that makes TL-15 or better safes as that technology tends to wind up in their cheaper safes.
Eta: I like you jimbo. And thank you for the pics of your brown safe. Makes feel even mo sure that they will be my next safe. |
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Normally, I just lurk and chuckle when the "experts" who did research and bought a gun safe or two argue with professional safe technicians and tell them they're wrong, etc. But this irrational love that some fanboys have for Sturdy, has almost caused my head to explode.
I happened to won both of the safes he was asking about, and like them both, that's why I responded to his questions. And no one was arguing with anyone, people were just giving their opinion in a very civil way. Congrats on turning this into a pissing match with your very first post on AR15. I want to be able to inspect, clean and lubricate the boltwork of a safe.
How many Browns have you worked on? How many Sturdy's? I can tell you from using both the Sturdy seems a lot smoother and less likely to need your services. No contest with the 1" thick solid steel frame of the Brown. Sturdy seems to be very proud of the extra bend in their 5 or 7 gauge door frames.
That's funny my B rated Bown doesn't have 1" thick steel, you must have a special model? (sarcasm) Brown safes have 3 external relockers plus the one in the lock for a total of 4.
Does that include my B rated Brown? The inside you're showing looks different then I remember mine. I'll have to check again in the next couple of days. I certainly don't remember a 1/4 bolt support, although I do hope that's the case. Brown safes have a door frame made of a solid 1" thick steel bar in all four sides of the frame
I'll check this as well but I'm pretty sure my door frame is not 1 inch thick. This is a C rated safe with a 1" thick door, so subtract half an inch for the B rate.
Oh, so it's a half inch. I guess I'm confused I thought the OP was asking about a B rated Brown??? "Brown will pay to have the safe opened and the lock replaced for the full 50 years. " That's good to know, and I hope it's the truth, because my Brown lock is not as smooth as the one on the Sturdy, even though they're supposedly the same, and every now and then it refuses to turn when I close the safe. The Sturdy door gap is smaller than the Brown and with good reason. The Sturdy uses a thin bent steel frame and a thinner door so a small gap is more important. Brown's 1" thick solid steel frame
The Sturdy gap is less then half that on my Brown and I find your rational laughable. So one more time... the steel on my Brown frame is 1" thick? I can tell you in my opinion the Sturdy door frame is much more robust. Brown: A real safe manufacturer that also makes gun safes
For the record my Brown is a burglary safe, not a gun safe. I'm also not trying to say that Sturdy makes crappy safes.
It's not? Funny I read your first post on this forum as not even close to objective, very condescending attack on Sturdy while comparing them to a C-rated brown Safe. I find it hard to believe this post isn't by you a1abdj but I'll bite anyway. Since you have the camera out, let's see the space between the door and body on that Brown.
As I said Rock it's more then twice the space of my Sturdy. And yes the condescending tone and writing style do seem very familiar. Since you're obviously paranoid, why don't you pm a mod and ask them where my IP address and his are coming from. It's just too crazy to believe that two people who know what their talking about might reach similar conclusions.
Surely someone as smart as you should know what every 8 year old knows...that anyone can mask their IP address. I especially love the part where you say "wo people who know what their talking about might reach similar conclusions. " It all sounds so familiar.... your fellow gun safe expert btn13
I happen to own both safes, again how many B rated Browns have you worked on? Sturdy's? And here's the door gap of another brand ( US Security) TL-15 safe
I thought we/you were comparing them to Sturdy? You may have seen btn13 mention that he owns both a Sturdy and a Brown, and that he recommends the Sturdy from an end-user point of view. He has given the difference in door gap as his reason. Cost/benefit surely came into play as well for him.
I gave several reasons and I also mentioned price Dr. AKLFerris I think you just need to pause and take a deep breath, then re-read what our new member wrote. The only thing he wrote that I could see as a possible attack against Sturdy is that they started out making toolboxes. The entirety of his post was to show that Brown exceeds Sturdy in many ways.
Actually the whole post was a slanted condescending attack on Sturdy while talking up a C rated Brown. I only have 2 degrees but it was more then clear to me and a couple of other posters as well. I have no skin in this game and if OP gets a Brown or Sturdy
Sorry don't believe you. I have no skin in this game, I own spent my money on both of the safes the OP was asking about.. And that's his opinion and I respect it. However, there are opinions and then there are expert opinions by people in the industry who work with safes every day. They have seen thousands of safes and boltworks and designs.
Respect it? Thats a load of crap. Congrats on the most insulting 1st post I've ever seen. Again how many B rated Browns have you worked on? Sturdy's? You cannot argue with opinions trying to go against facts. Most of what I wrote in my post is a matter of fact and not opinion. Heck, I included photos of measurements with a Mitutoyo caliper In all seriousness, if I do include an opinion, I try to preface it with "in my opinion". I am not perfect and I don't always do this, but I try.
Funny I didn't see any measurements of a B rated brown or of a Sturdy? Did I miss them? I have a sarcastic sense of humor so I apologize if I came across as petty or rude in my post. I think most people take themselves too seriously and you don't have to defend a safe to the death just because you bought it
I bought both. And you did come across petty and rude, you seem to be the one who takes themselves too seriously. As for your insurance ratings I just had a discussion with my State Farm agent and according to him unless you have $250k worth of insured valuables they don't even require, or discount, based on a safe. Jimbo,
If you haven't figured it out yet, these guys really like to argue about gun safes. They are very, very concerned happy customers that want others to know the merits of their particular choice for gun security. Actually no one was arguing until Jimbo, whoever he is arrived. And since I own both safes your premise is once again clearly incorrect This statement from you is a perfect illustration of why someone who knows nothing about safes should not be arguing with experts and giving other people advice about safes.
So let me get this straight, only you and one other "safe expert" should be allowed to respond to questions from here on in? |
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Originally Posted By btn13:
That's funny my B rated Bown doesn't have 1" thick steel, you must have a special model? (sarcasm) Brown safes have 3 external relockers plus the one in the lock for a total of 4.
Does that include my B rated Brown? The inside you're showing looks different then I remember mine. I'll have to check again in the next couple of days. I certainly don't remember a 1/4 bolt support, although I do hope that's the case. Brown safes have a door frame made of a solid 1" thick steel bar in all four sides of the frame
I'll check this as well but I'm pretty sure my door frame is not 1 inch thick. This is a C rated safe with a 1" thick door, so subtract half an inch for the B rate.
Oh, so it's a half inch. I guess I'm confused I thought the OP was asking about a B rated Brown??? Funny I didn't see any measurements of a B rated brown or of a Sturdy? Did I miss them? Actually the whole post was a slanted condescending attack on Sturdy while talking up a C rated Brown. I only have 2 degrees but it was more then clear to me and a couple of other posters as well. OK, real quick here,I think I'm including all the "C rated" insults
I don't know what your particular safe looks like with regards to the frame. What I do know is Brown states that there are only 3 differences between the B and C. I did not show pictures or mention them. I mentioned the only difference with the frame is that it will be -.50" deep because the door of a B is .50 compared to 1" for the C. Again, clearly stated right under the photo. From their website: 
The paranoia with you and your buddy thinking I'm a1 is hilarious. How about you pm a mod to do a Whois on my IP address. It will show that I'm using a residential host with a residential ISP matching the provider of the email I used to sign up. But that's prob not enough for you so A1, is it snowing in St Louis? |
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But that's prob not enough for you so A1, is it snowing in St Louis?
Missouri's weather changes to all extremes from one day to the next. Thankfully the snow is melting, as I have several gun safe deliveries that need to cross yards. For the record, I only personally know one safe guy from Texas, and his name is Ed, not Jim. Not only am I not Jim, but I don't even know who he is. In addition, you all know from a previous conversation that my first impression of a Brown safe was not so great. I have also admitted that although the safe I dealt with may have been a fluke, and they may have made changes since that safe was made, I have only seen a couple of their safes. I certainly don't own one, nor would I be going out of my way to defend their honor to the extent Jim is. Apparently he's a satisfied owner, and around here, that's a good enough reason to ramble on about them.
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Originally Posted By a1abdj:
But that's prob not enough for you so A1, is it snowing in St Louis?
Apparently he's a satisfied owner, and around here, that's a good enough reason to ramble on about them.
OK OK, I'll stop rambling on and going back and forth with the Sturdy twins 
OP should have plenty of photos and information already. Good luck and you should be happy with either one! 
Edit: Since I promised that I would not go back and forth anymore with the sturdy twins in this thread, I figured it wouldn't count if I just edited a post
btn seems to be very confused about the solid steel thickness with regards to the depth and width of the door frame of the B rate Brown. Since I did not have a B rate brown, I used a C rate to take the pictures because the C and B rate models are exactly the same except for the door and body steel thickness and hinges. I have posted a picture of their site where this is clearly stated. Of course don't take my word for it, ask them yourself if you like. I stated this clearly under the one photo that would show a deeper door frame than the B rate. I said to subtract half an inch and you will get the door frame depth for a B rate. Apparently he thinks this is "doublespeak" and I'm quoting marketing materials with 12 gauge safes, or something like that. So here is the photo with some nice arrows and stuff. So on a B-rate brown safe the door frame will be at least 1" deep. Now on to the width of the door frame. This image had no notation because these are the exact dimensions you will get on a B rate safe as well. It's 1" wide + a .50" x .50" solid steel lip. I only referred to the door frame as 1" thick in all my posts and I did not mention this additional half inch of steel. So in summary, the frame on Brown B rate safe is 1" deep x 1" wide of solid steel as I had previously stated numerous times. In fact, I didn't even mention the .50" x .50" lip that goes all the way around the door frame. So the frame, at it's widest point is 1.5" wide (with 1" of width being 1" deep .50" of width being .50" deep) and it's welded to the 1/4" steel plate on all four sides. All the security features (excluding steel thickness of body and door) are also exactly the same as the C rate safe. Now back to
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Thanks for all the info and pictures.
In my mind, safes are like anything else. You decide what you want and how much you want to pay, and then you balance what you can afford/want. I own a sturdy and I see sturdy as one of the better RSCs out there. It is not a true "safe", but then it doesn't cost what a true "safe" cost, but it is also worlds above the $600 Costco special, or even most of the $1000-1500 gun store RSCs. I bought mine in person, and got a "scratch and dent" fire lined about 8 years ago for around $1700 and I am happy with it. If I wanted to break into a sturdy,(with the very limited safe knowledge that I have) I would cut through the wall with a grinder, and I bet I could make a decent sized hole in less than an hour. It doesn't make sense to me to build some "super door" when that is not the easiest place to get in. To me the sturdy's door fits the rest of the product. It would be very difficult to pry, and would probably be harder to get through than the wall, so I would go elsewhere to break into it. Lets face it, with anything less than 1/2" steel walls you could get into it with a grinder pretty darn easily. If I were going to break into a Brown I would do the same, and I will bet it wouldn't take much more time. With 1/2" I just think that it will take more time. Why mess with some engineered door with relockers if you don't know what you are doing? Just cut a sqare hole in the side and get the stuff out. On the flip side, why build a $3000 door on a safe with a 1/4" wall? If you look at the total prices of the two safes in the initial post it is $3000 vs about $4200. Which one do you think will be better? I would hope the 1/3 more you are paying would get you more features and a better product. In my mind Sturdy occupies a price point at the upper end of a basic RSC, and also provides a product at the upper end of the RSC market, but is not a safe. It is a "Honda Accord" or a "Toyota Camry", not cheap, but at a sweet spot in terms of price to value. If that is what you want, get it. If you don't have the money, get something cheaper, if you want a real safe pony up the extra $1200. If that is important to you, and you have the money, then get what you want. However, it makes no sense in my mind to be so biased about a product that you don't realize its limitations. In my mind the specs on the "Zykan" are pretty good for the price as well. You are buying a foreign made product, which doesn't have a track record behind it and you don't know if "Zykan" will be around in 15 years, but lets face it, its a metal box with pretty basic technology if something goes wrong with it. I would be more concerned about the lockwork rusting, or some other problem, long term, but if you kept things lubricated than ?maybe it would be worth it? |
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I mentioned the only difference with the frame is that it will be -.50" deep because the door of a B is .50 compared to 1" for the C.
Oh, I must of missed that. Or perhaps if it was in your post it was couched in double speak like the rest of what you had to say. Regardless it's like saying the side of our 20" deep safe is made from a 20" piece of steel. The door and the door jamb are both made from .5". I guess it was too difficult for you to just come out and say that. Or do you always just quote marketing material? Whats next? Are you going to be talking to us about "thick 12 gauge side walls?" I'm just curious Jimbo as to why you're so offended think my Sturdy is better then my Brown? And I'm sure the OP appreciates all the pics of the C rated Brown along with all your condescending tone and clear slanting of "the facts." And for the record our arguments about Sturdy occurred on a different message board, our (my) arguments on here have been about how rude and condescending your "expert" friend was when he joined this site. So how exactly do you know about what occurred on that other forum?? Regardless the OP was thinking about buying a B rated Brown. All this conversation may be for nothing we he discovers what Brown will be charging him for crating and shipping. Chance are that will bring his price to over 4K. And last but not least good luck moving those safes. |
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Originally Posted By btn13:
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if you want a real safe pony up the extra $1200.
Most "safe experts" don't consider a B rated safe a "real safe" either. Didn't you just call it a safe? |
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Originally Posted By jimbojones21:
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
But that's prob not enough for you so A1, is it snowing in St Louis?
Apparently he's a satisfied owner, and around here, that's a good enough reason to ramble on about them.
OK OK, I'll stop rambling on and going back and forth with the Sturdy twins
OP should have plenty of photos and information already. Good luck and you should be happy with either one! Is there some arrogance qualification needed to become a safe tech? I really didn't read your response jimbo just skimmed through a few lines here and there. There something in there about laughable that two 14 ton spreaders could bend 1" that door jam I believe. I'll let your engineer friend explain that one to you although I did say the 1/4" bolt guide would fail long before the spreaders would start bending that 1" A36 bar. I know you said a lot more than that Jimbo but I really didn't have the time or care to read through it especially hearing that familiar condescending tone. OP: You asked for a comparison of a Brown B rate to a Sturdy with 5ga. You'll have to decide if you think the little extra steel (your initial weight estimates are for 7ga body I believe so it probably will be another 75Lbs or so more for that size with 5ga on the Sturdy) is worth $1200. I think they both will provide a good level of security but neither are TL rated or even close to it despite what some "expert" might imply. |
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Most "safe experts" don't consider a B rated safe a "real safe" either.
I certainly do. A B rate is usually the entry level for insurability on a commercial policy when valuables are concerned. I even consider document safes real safes, as they are certified to provide a real level of protection, even if it is just from fire. I do not consider most gun safes real safes, as they usually offer very limited burglary protection, very limited fire protection, and most are unrated. Is there some arrogance qualification needed to become a safe tech?
I just think you think it's arrogance because you're of the opposite opinion. If you went into the doctor with a diagnosis you made yourself from the internet, and you were wrong, he would probably give you the facts. I'm also sure you'd think he was an arrogant prick for not sharing your views. I take security pretty seriously. Part of that means that I have to know some specifics about what you're planning on using the safe for, and be honest with you regarding the ability of certain safes to perform those tasks. As a professional, I could certainly be sued for knowingly providing somebody a safe that I know is not suitable for the task at hand. My insurance company agrees with me, as part of my policy covers these types of risks. Even though I'm not here selling anything, I carry that same practice over to the forums I belong to. If somebody asks a question, I'm going to answer it as honestly as I can. I can certainly see where somebody with an opposing viewpoint could see that as arrogance. I could also see where somebody, somewhere, is going to get upset if they loose a sale because of it. |
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I certainly do. A B rate is usually the entry level for insurability on a commercial policy when valuables are concerned
Not according to State Farm. I had a long discussion with them recently because I needed to increase my insurance. As I mentioned earlier they don't even care if you have a safe until you have $250k worth of valuables. As for a B rated safe being considered a "real" safe all of the experts I spoke to locally didn't. Now that doesn't mean I agreed, after all I ended up buying a B rated safe. However their arguments sound exactly like what we're hearing on here regarding Sturdy and other high end gun safes. All of these safes have their place in your total security plan. In fact when I had the head of the local burglary alarm place come by he considered the fact that it was bolted down more important then whether it was a gun safe, a B rated safe or a C rated safe. |
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Not according to State Farm. I had a long discussion with them recently because I needed to increase my insurance. As I mentioned earlier they don't even care if you have a safe until you have $250k worth of valuables.
Were you shopping a commercial policy or residential policy? Keep in mind that your average residential burglar will not attack a safe. The odds of a safe being attacked in a business burglary is much more likely. It's all about the statistical risks. With that said, I have come across a few commercial insurers that don't have much to say about safe ratings. I'm working with a guy who's opening a coin shop who's insurance company has no requirements for the safe, even though he's insuring a half million dollars in assets. As for a B rated safe being considered a "real" safe all of the experts I spoke to locally didn't. Now that doesn't mean I agreed, after all I ended up buying a B rated safe. However their arguments sound exactly like what we're hearing on here regarding Sturdy and other high end gun safes.
It's a real safe as far as insurability, even though it's a fairly low amount. It's usually less than $10,000 in my experience, and that coverage does not include the overnight storage of cash short of a change or petty cash fund. I call them "tin cans", and they certainly aren't "real burglary resistant safes". I have also seen B rate safes pried/beaten/torn open during a burglary. I have never seen a C rate or higher rated safe opened that didn't involve power tools. All of these safes have their place in your total security plan. In fact when I had the head of the local burglary alarm place come by he considered the fact that it was bolted down more important then whether it was a gun safe, a B rated safe or a C rated safe.
What is going on in your neck of the woods would probably not be the exact same as what is going on in mine. I rarely see safes attacked during home burglaries. It is also not very common to see a safe walk off, unless it is so small and light that it is easy to carry. The fact that you're using a safe at all, of any type, is a huge security gain. It doesn't matter if it's a $500 safe or a $50,000 safe. If a burglar doesn't touch it anyway, they'll both do the same job. However, you should be using a safe designed to do the task at hand. All safes, should also be bolted to the floor, although very few people ever do. |
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Again, thanks everyone for all the viewpoints and arguments, both for and against the different things to consider with the two manufacturers I asked about. Lots of good arguments, and I'm surprised the bickering was kept to a minimum (for a safe thread anyways).
All things noted, I have to figure out what I want to do now. Guess I'll update the thread once whichever I end up going with arrives, which wont be for at least a couple months, due to both companies having to make either one I am interested in. |
Sturdy vs. Brown vs. ??? (Page 1 of 3)
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