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Posted: 9/13/2025 8:00:03 AM EDT
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I am an SOT, trying to help another SOT (mfr) with an AK project. Ideally we would like to remove a serialed AK front trunnion from one receiver (this is the only serial on the firearm) and swap in a different front trunnion and barrel. The removed trunnion and barrel will be used in a different project, trunnion will get scrubbed for that as it is going on a US serialed receiver. The receiver in question has already been engraved with the other SOT’s info and the serial number added to the actual receiver as part of that engraving, so it isn’t like the receiver will ever not have a serial on it. Anyhow he asked ATF about it and got a response that made me wonder if they even realized he was an FFL/ SOT MFR…. Said that serial numbers can never be moved, and that it would be illegal to separate the trunnion from the receiver since it was the only serial on the gun. Now I know serials can be moved, have heard of it being done at times for various reasons. Does anyone know what the real answer is to this? (I am not sure the flunky who answered the email question didn’t just think it was from a random gun owner and not an SOT.) If we cannot separate the trunnion then I think we have two routes forward- just swapping out the barrel only and forcing the headspace possibly via bolt swapping or oversized pin, or just destroying the receiver and using a new generic receiver. Option 1 might be a pain to do, as I will end up dealing with headspace on the build plus again when I reuse the barrel. Option 2 will be more paperwork as the receiver has already been Form 2’d into a MG, but might be the easier route. However if we could just legally relocate the serial officially to the receiver life would be a lot easier… Any info, letters, etc would be helpful, thanks! |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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Serial numbers cannot be moved. It is ridiculous, but it’s the truth. There is no reason why an SOT should not be allowed to relocate the serial number to a different location on a receiver, but it is verboten. For this reason, when an HK91 is converted into a 21, 21e, or 23e the serial number is left attached to the receiver by a small isthmus of steel while the rest of the magwell is removed. The serial number is then transposed up and welded in place, leaving the isthmus attached so that the serial number never technically left the receiver. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: Serial numbers cannot be moved. It is ridiculous, but it’s the truth. There is no reason why an SOT should not be allowed to relocate the serial number to a different location on a receiver, but it is verboten. For this reason, when an HK91 is converted into a 21, 21e, or 23e the serial number is left attached to the receiver by a small isthmus of steel while the rest of the magwell is removed. The serial number is then transposed up and welded in place, leaving the isthmus attached so that the serial number never technically left the receiver. That is a wild way to handle it. Yet why can I find reference to Browning Hi Powers having the serial moved from the front of the grip so the metal could be checkered? Or shotguns with a serial near the loading port having the serial moved so the port could be machined wider? And I am pretty sure I recall reading about serials being moved on FAL receivers that were remachined to look like something other than a cast Type 3 receiver? Are all these folks just doing whatever? Or is ATF giving inconsistent information? |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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Originally Posted By tac556: Now I know serials can be moved, have heard of it being done at times for various reasons. Does anyone know what the real answer is to this? I only know of 2 instances, and both required written approval from a DepDir. One was a drill out SN, the other was a bullet hit to the SN. In both cases the lawful owner did nothing wrong and this relocation was a condition of returning it to the owner. ATF outsourced the SN fix to a FFL. |
| I have an M1 carbine and the SN has been moved further towards the rear of the receiver. It's an import, SN & features put it as a Saginaw receiver. |
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Originally Posted By tac556: That is a wild way to handle it. Yet why can I find reference to Browning Hi Powers having the serial moved from the front of the grip so the metal could be checkered? Or shotguns with a serial near the loading port having the serial moved so the port could be machined wider? And I am pretty sure I recall reading about serials being moved on FAL receivers that were remachined to look like something other than a cast Type 3 receiver? Are all these folks just doing whatever? Or is ATF giving inconsistent information? ATF guidance from decades ago allowed remarking the serial # or even marking a wholly new firearm with that number. At one time ATF would allow manufacturers to exchange a irreparable silencer with a replacement having the same serial# to avoid another Form 4. They have not allowed that for some time. |
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Well got this done, leaving the original S/N’d trunnion with the receiver since moving a S/N is prohibited. What a pain in the neck. Tried to guess which barrel would best work, that did not really work out, ended up finally finding a bolt that would then headspace without needing to do an oversized barrel pin. All because ATF says you can’t move a stupid serial number. So typically ridiculous and lacking in common sense. |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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Originally Posted By tac556: All because ATF says you can’t move a stupid serial number. So typically ridiculous and lacking in common sense. A couple years back, I asked about an SBR that had no less than four maker's marks on it. It had been made as a rifle, remade/marked as SBR by a 07/02, un-SBR'd by selling as stripped, SBR'd again by a different maker, etc., etc... Since the regs literally say "to avoid confusion", I asked if I could take all but the original marks and my SBR marks off of it to avoid confusion of having a gun with multiple marks in my books. (No one would be able to correctly tell which was the "current" vs. orignal vs. intermediate markings to log it in. It wasn't a major manufacturer's marks in an obvious marking location.) Noope. Can't remove any of them. Funny thing is, then the brace debacle went down and then they were like "Oh, just reuse the original manufacturer's marks." The sooner one comes to terms that none of this stuff makes sense, it gets easier. :D |
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