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Page Armory » M-16
Posted: 1/19/2021 5:05:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SLAPPYROOTZ]
Looking for a registered receiver and wondering if one of these is more desirable/durable than the other...
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 5:38:21 PM EDT
[#1]
I keep hearing to select the one in the best condition.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:53:40 PM EDT
[#2]
i has a Sendra / BFA, it was excellent
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:16:00 PM EDT
[#3]
On a relatively sample size, I think the Sendras, on average have better fit with uppers than PAWS/Oly.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:29:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:47:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Sendra is forged, oly is cast.
Go with the Sendra, i have one and it has been a hoot, I have been experiencing with different uppers and love it
Ordered a 22, with 22 auto actuator.  hopefully it comes in before I run out of 556
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 2:01:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SLAPPYROOTZ] [#6]
Thanks all.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 2:14:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By colossians323:
Sendra is forged, oly is cast.
Go with the Sendra, i have one and it has been a hoot, I have been experiencing with different uppers and love it
Ordered a 22, with 22 auto actuator.  hopefully it comes in before I run out of 556
View Quote


The SGW/Olympic receivers furnished to PAWS were not cast.....they were forged.....A1 profile like the SGW "Stop Sign" receivers...

The cast SGW/Oly receivers were the ones they "replaced" post '86 in their sketchy/legally questionable debacle.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 11:46:24 AM EDT
[#8]
I've owned both and here's what you should know. The PAWS (Police Automatic Weapon Services) receivers are all forged, not cast , and were "factory" manufactured as full auto lowers, using receivers manufactured by Olympic for PAWS. That means the sear in holes are in the correct position and will function as they should. The one I had had no fitment issues and worked with every upper I put on it. True PAWS receivers serial numbers start with a "Z". I say this, because I've seen some receivers that were supposed to be PAWS, that were not.

Sendra receivers are also forged, but they all started as semi auto receivers and were converted to M16 profile by a wide variety of different manufacturers, including Bushmaster, Franklin armory, Rock Island Armory, and any number of private citizens that had a semi auto Sendra receiver and a Dremmel tool. That means you have to be careful about who did the conversion to make sure it was done right and will function properly. If you do internet searches on Sendra M16's, you may see a story that gunsmith Mike Klos (a truly gifted gunsmith in the St. Louis area), had a bad experience welding a Sendra receiver and claimed the receiver was made of sub-standard aluminum alloy and refused to work on them after that. Mike is a great gunsmith, and I don't doubt his word, but I think his experience was a fluke and I have never heard of anyone else having a serious problem with Sendra receivers.

That's probably more information than you wanted, but the bottom line is, either receiver is fine and should serve you well as long as the conversion was done properly.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 1:32:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Copper:
I've owned both and here's what you should know. The PAWS (Police Automatic Weapon Services) receivers are all forged, not cast , and were "factory" manufactured as full auto lowers, using receivers manufactured by Olympic for PAWS. That means the sear in holes are in the correct position and will function as they should. The one I had had no fitment issues and worked with every upper I put on it. True PAWS receivers serial numbers start with a "Z". I say this, because I've seen some receivers that were supposed to be PAWS, that were not.

Sendra receivers are also forged, but they all started as semi auto receivers and were converted to M16 profile by a wide variety of different manufacturers, including Bushmaster, Franklin armory, Rock Island Armory, and any number of private citizens that had a semi auto Sendra receiver and a Dremmel tool. That means you have to be careful about who did the conversion to make sure it was done right and will function properly. If you do internet searches on Sendra M16's, you may see a story that gunsmith Mike Klos (a truly gifted gunsmith in the St. Louis area), had a bad experience welding a Sendra receiver and claimed the receiver was made of sub-standard aluminum alloy and refused to work on them after that. Mike is a great gunsmith, and I don't doubt his word, but I think his experience was a fluke and I have never heard of anyone else having a serious problem with Sendra receivers.

That's probably more information than you wanted, but the bottom line is, either receiver is fine and should serve you well as long as the conversion was done properly.
View Quote


Great info, thanks.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 7:06:17 PM EDT
[#10]
I've owned a Sendra converted by Bushmaster for that last 18 years and love it. Its a dedicated 22 rifle now but ran uppers in 22, 9mm, 223/556, a Shrike and a Freedom Ordnance FM-9 with no issues.
I agree that who did the conversion makes a difference but that can be said for all.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 12:20:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: jbntex] [#11]
As mentioned above all of the proper Oly variant A1 M16s are forged receivers.   Oly didn't start making cast receivers until after the 86 ban with the most prolific cast guns being the much maligned "plinker" series in the early 2000s.   However early on they did make some "milled" barstock receivers that are really funky and some of those receivers were converted into M16s.  During the time period Oly was doing receiver replacements in the mid aughts they would replace pretty much any receiver sent to them requesting it be done, both forged and milled.

There are many folks who claim PAWS are factory machineguns and while I think they are great guns and represent a good value, I think its a stretch to call them "factory" machineguns in the traditional sense.

The PAWS (Police Automatic Weapon Systems) guns were turned into full auto M16s by the owner of PAWS (Bob Imel).  PAWS was a different FFL in a different State.  Oly was in Washington and Bob Imel / PAWS was in Oregon.

In terms of selector marking the early PAWs guns the selector markings are just "S - F -  A" (and the A is clearly hand stamped and often not straight)  the later PAWS guns are marked "Safe  -  Fire - Auto"  (Not Safe - Semi -Auto) and the "Auto"is clearly a different font and is not always marked parallel to the "Safe" marking.  These marking mirror what was on semi auto Oly/SGWs of the time.

The sear pin holes on the Oly/PAWs guns are not anodized unless they have been reanodized post conversion.

From my point of view its hard to call these "factory" machineguns in the same way a Colt M16 is a factory machinegun.

That said, I don't doubt Bob got receivers from Oly pre-clearanced for M16 autosears to minimize the milling that needed to be done and  that he had a professional relationship with Oly to get receivers premarked with his logo and custom serial number range.  However its pretty clear Bob registered them as machineguns, drilled the auto sear,  and stamped the "A" or "Auto" selector marking.  However, these guns didn't come out of the Oly/SGW factory doors as machineguns as Oly wasn't a 07/02 manufacturer back in the 80s.

Also, from memory almost every Oly/PAWS M16 I have ever seen the serial starts with a "P" and they run between P001A and P500A something.   I have never seen a Oly PAWS M16  with a serial that started with a "Z". (although there are "Z" serial Oly/SGW M16s as I have one in my safe)

I think the poster above may be confused with the "model" of the PAWS M16s many of which is the model is ZX16A1, although I have also seen PAWS with the model listed as XM15A1 as well, which was one of the original Oly semi auto model number.  (I also have another Oly/SGW model XM15A1 RR from another C2)

In terms of the OP question, I don't think an Oly forged M16 is better than Sendra or vis-versa.   I would get one where the conversion was well done and is in good condition vs. being "brand" specific and of course the price and sales terms fit your needs.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 3:45:31 AM EDT
[#12]
I've had a Sendra/B.F.I. lower for about 15 years with myself, 2 sons and 3 grandsons and other friends and relativities sending rounds downrange with minimal problems.  
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 12:02:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbntex:
As mentioned above all of the proper Oly variant A1 M16s are forged receivers.   Oly didn't start making cast receivers until after the 86 ban with the most prolific cast guns being the much maligned "plinker" series in the early 2000s.   However early on they did make some "milled" barstock receivers that are really funky and some of those receivers were converted into M16s.  During the time period Oly was doing receiver replacements in the mid aughts they would replace pretty much any receiver sent to them requesting it be done, both forged and milled.

There are many folks who claim PAWS are factory machineguns and while I think they are great guns and represent a good value, I think its a stretch to call them "factory" machineguns in the traditional sense.

The PAWS (Police Automatic Weapon Systems) guns were turned into full auto M16s by the owner of PAWS (Bob Imel).  PAWS was a different FFL in a different State.  Oly was in Washington and Bob Imel / PAWS was in Oregon.

In terms of selector marking the early PAWs guns the selector markings are just "S - F -  A" (and the A is clearly hand stamped and often not straight)  the later PAWS guns are marked "Safe  -  Fire - Auto"  (Not Safe - Semi -Auto) and the "Auto"is clearly a different font and is not always marked parallel to the "Safe" marking.  These marking mirror what was on semi auto Oly/SGWs of the time.

The sear pin holes on the Oly/PAWs guns are not anodized unless they have been reanodized post conversion.

From my point of view its hard to call these "factory" machineguns in the same way a Colt M16 is a factory machinegun.    

That said, I don't doubt Bob got receivers from Oly pre-clearanced for M16 autosears to minimize the milling that needed to be done and  that he had a professional relationship with Oly to get receivers premarked with his logo and custom serial number range.  However its pretty clear Bob registered them as machineguns, drilled the auto sear,  and stamped the "A" or "Auto" selector marking.  However, these guns didn't come out of the Oly/SGW factory doors as machineguns as Oly wasn't a 07/02 manufacturer back in the 80s.

Also, from memory almost every Oly/PAWS M16 I have ever seen the serial starts with a "P" and they run between P001A and P500A something.   I have never seen a Oly PAWS M16  with a serial that started with a "Z". (although there are "Z" serial Oly/SGW M16s as I have one in my safe)

I think the poster above may be confused with the "model" of the PAWS M16s many of which is the model is ZX16A1, although I have also seen PAWS with the model listed as XM15A1 as well, which was one of the original Oly semi auto model number.  (I also have another Oly/SGW model XM15A1 RR from another C2)

In terms of the OP question, I don't think an Oly forged M16 is better than Sendra or vis-versa.   I would get one where the conversion was well done and is in good condition vs. being "brand" specific and of course the price and sales terms fit your needs.

View Quote


Superbly helpful.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 1:48:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Also, from memory almost every Oly/PAWS M16 I have ever seen the serial starts with a "P" and they run between P001A and P500A something.   I have never seen a Oly PAWS M16  with a serial that started with a "Z". (although there are "Z" serial Oly/SGW M16s as I have one in my safe)

I think the poster above may be confused with the "model" of the PAWS M16s many of which is the model is ZX16A1
View Quote


Yep, he's right. My PAWS was a model ZX16A1 and the serial number started with a P, not Z. My bad.
Link Posted: 1/22/2021 9:45:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: j3_] [#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Villafuego:


The SGW/Olympic receivers furnished to PAWS were not cast.....they were forged.....A1 profile like the SGW "Stop Sign" receivers...

The cast SGW/Oly receivers were the ones they "replaced" post '86 in their sketchy/legally questionable debacle.
View Quote

The lowers they replaced were forged A1 lowers and maybe an early billet lower. The remanufactured lowers were forged A2 style lowers not cast. They did a run of semi lowers they called plinker or something similar around 2000-2001 that were cast but sold forged lowers at the same time.
Link Posted: 1/22/2021 10:11:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By j3_:

The lowers they replaced were forged A1 lowers and maybe an early billet lower. The remanufactured lowers were forged A2 style lowers not cast. They did a run of semi lowers they called plinker or something similar around 2000-2001 that were cast but sold forged lowers at the same time.
View Quote


The "Plinker" lowers they did in 2001 under the old SGW name were 100% cast, and I can guarantee you at least some of the replacement M-16 lowers were cast A2 profile as well. I just need to dig out the pics.... I was offered one for sale about 10 years ago, and really wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole due to their questionable legal status.
Link Posted: 1/22/2021 11:53:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Villafuego:


The "Plinker" lowers they did in 2001 under the old SGW name were 100% cast, and I can guarantee you at least some of the replacement M-16 lowers were cast A2 profile as well. I just need to dig out the pics.... I was offered one for sale about 10 years ago, and really wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole due to their questionable legal status.
View Quote

They were forged. I have pics of I think three different ones that have come up for sale and have handled and shot one.
Link Posted: 2/11/2021 11:28:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Is US Anodizing still the gold standard for refinishing ($500)?
Link Posted: 2/12/2021 2:24:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SLAPPYROOTZ:
Is US Anodizing still the gold standard for refinishing ($500)?
View Quote
I believe they are the only outfit that will work on registered receivers and reanodize them.

I had them redo a forged Oly/SGW M16A1 receiver maybe 5 years ago and it turned out great.   I actually have another Oly M16 forged receiver with them right now getting redone.

Personally, I have never heard anybody say anything bad about Victors craftsmanship.
Link Posted: 2/12/2021 11:07:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbntex:


I believe they are the only outfit that will work on registered receivers and reanodize them.

I had them redo a forged Oly/SGW M16A1 receiver maybe 5 years ago and it turned out great.   I actually have another Oly M16 forged receiver with them right now getting redone.

Personally, I have never heard anybody say anything bad about Victors craftsmanship.
View Quote



Victor does awesome work. I would not trust anyone else to reanodize a transferable M16.
Link Posted: 2/13/2021 1:38:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoshNC:


Victor does awesome work. I would not trust anyone else to reanodize a transferable M16.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoshNC:
Originally Posted By jbntex:


I believe they are the only outfit that will work on registered receivers and reanodize them.

I had them redo a forged Oly/SGW M16A1 receiver maybe 5 years ago and it turned out great.   I actually have another Oly M16 forged receiver with them right now getting redone.

Personally, I have never heard anybody say anything bad about Victors craftsmanship.


Victor does awesome work. I would not trust anyone else to reanodize a transferable M16.


Sounds good. Does he/can he replace parts like a trigger guard and mag catch?
Link Posted: 2/15/2021 11:49:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SLAPPYROOTZ:


Sounds good. Does he/can he replace parts like a trigger guard and mag catch?
View Quote


When I sent mine in it had to be completely stripped.

I even washed mine with dawn soap and brushed out all of the tiny little holes to make sure it was completely clean of grease as to not cause any issues during the re-anodizing process.
Link Posted: 2/15/2021 12:05:34 PM EDT
[#23]
I have an Oly SGW NWAC and it's been solid.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 11:57:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SLAPPYROOTZ] [#24]
Prices have really jumped in the last six months on these. The last two PAWS ZX16s that I saw that sell went for $27k and $32k.
Link Posted: 7/21/2021 1:20:30 AM EDT
[#25]
PAWS ZX16 here. No fitment issues, runs like a sewing machine.
Link Posted: 7/21/2021 6:02:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SLAPPYROOTZ:
Prices have really jumped in the last six months on these. The last two PAWS ZX16s that I saw that sell went for $27k and $32k.
View Quote


Non BFI Sendra on sturm for 22k
Link Posted: 8/30/2021 12:34:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Today makes 200 days pending on my Sendra RIA... hopefully it gets approved soon!
Link Posted: 8/30/2021 12:49:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: colossians323] [#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BLACKENED21:
Today makes 200 days pending on my Sendra RIA... hopefully it gets approved soon!
View Quote

good luck with the Xiden ATF
Link Posted: 9/3/2021 1:16:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: gmtmaster] [#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BLACKENED21:
Today makes 200 days pending on my Sendra RIA... hopefully it gets approved soon!
View Quote


Amateur.... My M16 took 18 months...in 1992... After my dealer sent in my paperwork. The form 3 to him took maybe 60 days.  Dont bother calling NFA, it wont make anything faster.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 7:08:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Sendra=Jerry Drasen,met him in the early 80s,cool guy.
Link Posted: 9/24/2021 1:51:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By colossians323:
Sendra is forged, oly is cast.
Go with the Sendra, i have one and it has been a hoot, I have been experiencing with different uppers and love it
Ordered a 22, with 22 auto actuator.  hopefully it comes in before I run out of 556
View Quote



Wrongorama.    PAWS is forged.
Link Posted: 9/24/2021 1:52:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbntex:
As mentioned above all of the proper Oly variant A1 M16s are forged receivers.   Oly didn't start making cast receivers until after the 86 ban with the most prolific cast guns being the much maligned "plinker" series in the early 2000s.   However early on they did make some "milled" barstock receivers that are really funky and some of those receivers were converted into M16s.  During the time period Oly was doing receiver replacements in the mid aughts they would replace pretty much any receiver sent to them requesting it be done, both forged and milled.

There are many folks who claim PAWS are factory machineguns and while I think they are great guns and represent a good value, I think its a stretch to call them "factory" machineguns in the traditional sense.

The PAWS (Police Automatic Weapon Systems) guns were turned into full auto M16s by the owner of PAWS (Bob Imel).  PAWS was a different FFL in a different State.  Oly was in Washington and Bob Imel / PAWS was in Oregon.

In terms of selector marking the early PAWs guns the selector markings are just "S - F -  A" (and the A is clearly hand stamped and often not straight)  the later PAWS guns are marked "Safe  -  Fire - Auto"  (Not Safe - Semi -Auto) and the "Auto"is clearly a different font and is not always marked parallel to the "Safe" marking.  These marking mirror what was on semi auto Oly/SGWs of the time.

The sear pin holes on the Oly/PAWs guns are not anodized unless they have been reanodized post conversion.

From my point of view its hard to call these "factory" machineguns in the same way a Colt M16 is a factory machinegun.    

That said, I don't doubt Bob got receivers from Oly pre-clearanced for M16 autosears to minimize the milling that needed to be done and  that he had a professional relationship with Oly to get receivers premarked with his logo and custom serial number range.  However its pretty clear Bob registered them as machineguns, drilled the auto sear,  and stamped the "A" or "Auto" selector marking.  However, these guns didn't come out of the Oly/SGW factory doors as machineguns as Oly wasn't a 07/02 manufacturer back in the 80s.

Also, from memory almost every Oly/PAWS M16 I have ever seen the serial starts with a "P" and they run between P001A and P500A something.   I have never seen a Oly PAWS M16  with a serial that started with a "Z". (although there are "Z" serial Oly/SGW M16s as I have one in my safe)

I think the poster above may be confused with the "model" of the PAWS M16s many of which is the model is ZX16A1, although I have also seen PAWS with the model listed as XM15A1 as well, which was one of the original Oly semi auto model number.  (I also have another Oly/SGW model XM15A1 RR from another C2)

In terms of the OP question, I don't think an Oly forged M16 is better than Sendra or vis-versa.   I would get one where the conversion was well done and is in good condition vs. being "brand" specific and of course the price and sales terms fit your needs.





View Quote



PAWS are factory MGs
Link Posted: 9/24/2021 2:02:39 PM EDT
[#33]
There used to be a shop outside of Salem, Oregon called P.A.W.S..   It stood for Police Automatic Weapons Service.  They would convert AR15's to M-16 specs back when it was legal to do so (prior 1986).
Link Posted: 10/29/2021 2:51:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By colossians323:
Sendra is forged, oly is cast.
View Quote


Incorrect
Link Posted: 10/29/2021 2:52:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gmtmaster] [#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By colossians323:

good luck with the Xiden ATF
View Quote


He has nothing to do with it.
Link Posted: 11/1/2021 7:26:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nutter] [#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:



PAWS are factory MGs
View Quote



Wrong! They did conversions....
Link Posted: 2/26/2022 10:06:38 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nutter:



Wrong! They did conversions....
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nutter:
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:



PAWS are factory MGs



Wrong! They did conversions....

Yep,you are correct.Former CL3 dealer early 80s here.These newbies have no idea ,they all yearn for a fucking "fun switch" LOL
Link Posted: 6/1/2022 10:36:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VK2XXM:

Yep,you are correct.Former CL3 dealer early 80s here.These newbies have no idea ,they all yearn for a fucking "fun switch" LOL
View Quote


Learn something here, then move along. This isn't GD. None of us care  what you formerly were.
Link Posted: 6/25/2022 7:15:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:


Learn something here, then move along. This isn't GD. None of us care  what you formerly were.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By VK2XXM:

Yep,you are correct.Former CL3 dealer early 80s here.These newbies have no idea ,they all yearn for a fucking "fun switch" LOL


Learn something here, then move along. This isn't GD. None of us care  what you formerly were.

And none of us gives a flying fuck what you think.
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 10:21:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SLAPPYROOTZ] [#40]
To get this thread back on track, Ruben has a nice PAWS listed for $30k... there hasn’t been much of a price change in the last 9-12 months, but the M16 conversion inventory still seems really low. I think there is, or was, a Sendra listed on the EE. Not sure if it ever sold.
Page Armory » M-16
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