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SBR "juice worth the squeeze"? (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: I’d love to be wrong. Trust me. I want to be wrong. Show me I’m wrong. Show me I’ve been doing it wrong. I’ll wait. Originally Posted By Brahmzy: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: You are wrong, and are spreading misinformation. I’d love to be wrong. Trust me. I want to be wrong. Show me I’m wrong. Show me I’ve been doing it wrong. I’ll wait. You implied initially that you are stuck with the listed barrel length on your stamp form. This is not correct. |
It was not preached to the crowd,
It was not taught by the State.
No man spoke it aloud,
When the English began to hate.
It was not taught by the State.
No man spoke it aloud,
When the English began to hate.
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: All of these questions and more have been answered ad-nauseum in our very own Armory section. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm not, I'm just suggesting you not get the OP worked up. I asked the question because I already know the answers: - You probably should have an upper with the barrel length as noted on your stamp, but this isn't in writing anywhere that I am aware of. - There has never been a case that I'm aware of where someone was charged for the wrong length on an otherwise legal registered lower. - You are not stuck with the barrel length on your stamp as you initially claimed |
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Worth the squeeze? I don't know, but I'm about to find out. My 12.5" pistol built to satisfy IN handgun hunting requirements, apparently might be called a SBR depending on the mood of whoever decides to stop me and check my papers. SBR are now legal equipment for deer hunting in my state, so I'm going for it. |
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: Ya better F1 a handful of lowers because you're stuck with a certain barrel length on each one you F1 - whatever you listed on your F1. Telling you. Variety and options are king here. And yes the ATF cares about a 10.3" barrel vs a 10.5" barrel. If you F1'd a lower for a 10.5, it better be 10.5 upper that ends up on that lower. 
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An armed society is a polite society.
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy:  Sure wish I knew this was a thing. I'da done the same. From the sounds of it, it doesn't matter WTH you put on the form, lol. 
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An armed society is a polite society.
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: Ya better F1 a handful of lowers because you’re stuck with a certain barrel length on each one you F1 - whatever you listed on your F1. Originally Posted By Brahmzy: Ya better F1 a handful of lowers because you’re stuck with a certain barrel length on each one you F1 - whatever you listed on your F1. You can use any barrel length or caliber at any time (even if the change is permanent). Originally Posted By ELittlefield:This is utterly false. You can mix and match uppers on an SBR lower to your heart's content as long as the change is not permanent. So don't weld the upper receiver to the lower, and you're fine. They have asked that you notify for permanent changes, but it's not a requirement. The ATF does not consider any caliber or barrel length changes on any ARs to be permanent. |
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Originally Posted By fulautotank: I have several form 1 lowers that list barrel length at 5" to 15.5". It also lists multiple calibers. It's like when someone advertises a drop-in HK MG sear pack as, "Registered in 3 calibers!" versus one simply registered in 9mm (or "N/A" which is how it's supposed to be listed). Doesn't matter. You can use either MG conversion in any caliber host you'd like, at any moment. No, ATF doesn't accept multiple calibers or lengths anymore, because it's technically incorrect to list anything that way. They want to know about the current configuration. This doesn't mean you're prevented from changing the configuration later. |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: Cool, but it doesn't make any difference. People with NFA forms listing only 1 length and 1 caliber still have exactly the same options as you. It's like when someone advertises a drop-in HK MG sear pack as, "Registered in 3 calibers!" versus one simply registered in 9mm. Doesn't matter. You can use either MG conversion in any caliber host you'd like, at any moment. No, ATF doesn't accept multiple calibers or lengths anymore, because it's technically incorrect to list anything that way. They want to know about the current configuration. This doesn't mean you're prevented from changing the configuration later. Hell, I can't even remember what is listed for barrel length on some of my form 1 lowers 
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An armed society is a polite society.
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Originally Posted By tet493: The biggest upside to 11.5” is parts longevity. 10.3/5s are disproportionately more violent on cycle of operations. Someone please correct me if this is no longer true. Originally Posted By tet493: Originally Posted By the-answer-is-42: Its all diminishing returns under 14.5. After a decade of having a bunch of 10-12" setups I've gotten rid of them in favor of just one 10.5 SBR for 'cqb larping' and my other SBR lower is now a 14.5 but not P&W. The ballistics and balance is much better IMO when you go 14.5" and up. The useable rail space sucks on shorter uppers as well. I will admit 11.5 is probably the best medium between 10.5 and 14.5 but if you're going to have a token SBR why not just go as short as you reasonably can which is a 10.5. This obviously is for 5.56, as a 4-8" 9mm SBR is pretty awesome and a standard length range, as well as 4" .22LR barrel SBRs, and 10" or less AKs The biggest upside to 11.5” is parts longevity. 10.3/5s are disproportionately more violent on cycle of operations. Someone please correct me if this is no longer true. In my experience, you're unlikely to see any meaningful difference in parts life between an 11.5" and a 10.3" -- especially assuming the latter is properly ported. I've put north of 27k on my main 10.3" .070" CQBR, and the only major parts swap was the barrel at 17k. And that's not entirely fair, because 14k of it was steel case bi-metal projectile garbage. It's still using the same C158 bolt, and I didn't even change gas rings until 20k (it can basically run without gas rings). Obviously, not every bolt is going to last 27k, regardless of the barrel length. However, it does serve to illustrate that individual parts life can vary quite significantly. That's going to matter a lot more when talking about an individual rifle. Any minor statistical difference in parts life you might see comparing 11.5" to 10.3" over a huge sample size doesn't tell you much about how long an individual part is going to last. And that's putting aside that the vast, vast majority of AR owners will never shoot enough to need to worry about it in the first place. |
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IG: @cqbr.kurdt
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IG: @cqbr.kurdt
Looking for: Savannah Mk18 RIS II in light blonde/bronze - LMT SOPMOD Gen 1 Tan - Aimpoint Comp M3 w/ Lens Covers
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Originally Posted By krdt: In my experience, you're unlikely to see any meaningful difference in parts life between an 11.5" and a 10.3" -- especially assuming the latter is properly ported. I've put north of 27k on my main 10.3" .070" CQBR, and the only major parts swap was the barrel at 17k. And that's not entirely fair, because 14k of it was steel case bi-metal projectile garbage. It's still using the same C158 bolt, and I didn't even change gas rings until 20k (it can basically run without gas rings). Obviously, not every bolt is going to last 27k, regardless of the barrel length. However, it does serve to illustrate that individual parts life can vary quite significantly. That's going to matter a lot more when talking about an individual rifle. Any minor statistical difference in parts life you might see comparing 11.5" to 10.3" over a huge sample size doesn't tell you much about how long an individual part is going to last. And that's putting aside that the vast, vast majority of AR owners will never shoot enough to need to worry about it in the first place. Agreed. I’ve got multiple 10.5s/10.3s and they’ve been my longest-owned, most-shot SBRs. Probably 4 or 5 different barrels ‘ configurations over 20-25 years. Tons of rounds. I’ve never had any of the infamous reliability issues or hard wear I hear about. Not saying that a sample size of ~5 vs 10,000 10.5 guns tells the story but I’m just not seeing it. Dead reliable for me. No broken parts. I haven’t I’ve put 27k rounds on a single bolt in one particular 10.5, but I bet I’ve had at least 12k-15k on a single bolt in a single 10.5. I generally end up somehow swapping/buying parts often enough, not to mention “spreading the load” between many different rifles. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy my 11.5s - absolutely do and shoot those a ton, but there’s something kinda magical about a suppressed 10.5 - super handy rifle. |
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I might argue “it depends”; for me, it depends mainly on the platform. For example, my PTR SBR vs. a folding mini-14:  I have a suppressor for the MP5 clone. It is shorter, lighter, handier, and quieter than an AR, even SBRed. And having been around short barrel ARs, I don’t want to deal with that concussive force inside my house for HD, so the MP5 clone gets the job. That being said, I might SBR my AR lower if the engraving requirement goes away and stamps are still $0, just to never worry about it again. I do have a 5.56 can in jail, so I might change my mind about OAL after it gets free, and an already SBR’ed lower makes that much, much easier. But to answer OP: I would say “it depends”, and other than a way to hedge my bets for the future, I don’t see much benefit to an SBR’ed AR. But MMMV once I get a can appropriate for purpose. |
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I don't think I own any 5.56" rifles that aren't SBR'd. Let me check my 9mm PCCs are sbr'd. my kids 22 ars are sbr'd. my 300blks are sbr'd. my 6.5 grendel is sbr'd. all my 5.56 are sbr'd. the shortest is 11.5, the longest is 14.5. i haven't dipped into the .308 yet. oh wait, i totally forget, my .350 legend and .458 socom are 16". the kids .22 bolt action and lever action are not sbr'd. everything is suppressed. now i'm mad i didn't wait. only four of the sbrs were $0 and none of the suppressors. |
| i know most men here are young six foot bodybuilders. i'm not. i'm a pretty healthy 72 year old. my shoulder joints ain't good, so i have found that a shorter lighter gun is easier & more fun to shoot. it's hugged up closer to me, a lot less stress on the joints. so i have 3 stamps pending, a 9mm & a 45 ar pistol, both 6 inch with a can, just waiting to lose the braces & use a good stock. the 5.56 will be 12.5 inch mid gas with a yhm turbo k/rb and a superlative adjustable gas block. |
"I came into this world naked, screaming, & covered with someone else`s blood. I plan on going out the same way."
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I had a bunch of AR pattern rifles, the shortest of which was 14.5 pinned to 16". I did my first form 1 10 years ago for a 11.5" 5.56. Now I only have three that are NOT SBRs. If you go less than 11.5, switch calibers or it just becomes a noisemaker. |
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Originally Posted By twoisone: I had a bunch of AR pattern rifles, the shortest of which was 14.5 pinned to 16". I did my first form 1 10 years ago for a 11.5" 5.56. Now I only have three that are NOT SBRs. If you go less than 11.5, switch calibers or it just becomes a noisemaker. |
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer
I know you are asking about sbrs, op, and I concur with those that say you need to do one or more. 11 or 12 up to 14.5 inches are fantastic and very handy. But since you mentioned having multiple lowers, have you ever shot a 20 inch barrel with the full a2 stock? They are really nice smooth shooting rifles and then you would have all the bases covered. Just a thought for you and your collection 
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Originally Posted By slap_shot: I know you are asking about sbrs, op, and I concur with those that say you need to do one or more. 11 or 12 up to 14.5 inches are fantastic and very handy. But since you mentioned having multiple lowers, have you ever shot a 20 inch barrel with the full a2 stock? They are really nice smooth shooting rifles and then you would have all the bases covered. Just a thought for you and your collection I used to only have 20" rifles, got way from them for reasons I can't remember. |
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Originally Posted By Chowser: I don't think I own any 5.56" rifles that aren't SBR'd. Let me check my 9mm PCCs are sbr'd. my kids 22 ars are sbr'd. my 300blks are sbr'd. my 6.5 grendel is sbr'd. all my 5.56 are sbr'd. the shortest is 11.5, the longest is 14.5. i haven't dipped into the .308 yet. oh wait, i totally forget, my .350 legend and .458 socom are 16". the kids .22 bolt action and lever action are not sbr'd. everything is suppressed. now i'm mad i didn't wait. only four of the sbrs were $0 and none of the suppressors. Same. 11.5 bcm raider. 11.5 superduty. 11in mr556a4. 10.3 urgi and 13.5 lmt 308. |
| I went ahead and registered a lower and put 11.5" on the form 1. Got it back approved in four days counting the weekend. Right now the lower is just sitting unassembled in the safe because I'm still trying to find somebody local to do the engraving and I wasn't planning on buying the rest of the parts to finish it until after Thanksgiving. Maybe if I wait long enough the rules will change and I won't have to do the engraving. |
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Originally Posted By rb889: Depends on if you're adding a suppressor. Suppressors make rifles much more pleasant to shoot, provided they're tuned to not gas you out. A can on a 14.5" or longer is just a bit obnoxious, and about the limit of tolerable, depending on the rest of the setup. Moving to a 11.5" balances much better, despite the change in weight being pretty minimal. Shifting that 12+ ounce can a few inches closer makes a hell of a difference as far as handling characteristics. This is pretty much what i found if you have to really carry a gun around in the feild. I have a kind of light weight 16" Grendel that i use hunting but with small light Ti can. It handles pretty good but really is about my limit even with the Ti K can. If you compair it to my 14.5 with a heavier barrel and steel K can. The 14.5 still feel noticably smaller to me. Then a 10.5 or 11.5 with a good can ends up about the size of a unsuppressed 16". Suppressors really change the ballance of a rifle a lot. As much as i like cans, everytime i screw them off a 16" i think "man, this is how this rifle should feel. The 14.5 didnt feel that way to bad. The 10.5s not at all. |
SBR "juice worth the squeeze"? (Page 2 of 2)
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