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Posted: 8/9/2021 6:35:43 AM EDT
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My goal was 3000fps and <0.6 MOA. Freefloated, freshly cleaned 16" carbine, 4x scope, 2-stage trigger, rested on sandbags Prone. Attached File Once-fired IMI Razorcore cases sized to -0.006" headspace clearance, 0.218" ID neck, trimmed to 1.750", VLD chamfered, primer crimp reamed. The flash holes were some of the best I've ever seen - only one had a burr to remove - so I didn't bother uniforming. CCI #41s were seated flush. The 62gr Gold Dots were seated to a COAL of 2.250" +/-0.005". Attached File Interesting cap that looks crimped onto the base. Attached File Next to a moly'd M855 bullet. 0.905" to 0.810" long. Attached File Hodgdon lists the MAX .223 charge under 60gr VMAX and 63gr SP as 26.7gr making 3150fps from a 24" barrel. Hornady lists MAX .223 charge under their 60-62gr bullets as 27.4gr making 3200fps from I assume 24" barrel. Hornady's MAX 5.56 charge is 27.7gr making 3150fps from I assume 20" barrel. "Real world" data says 26.8gr makes 2840fps and 27.5gr made "about" 2900fps from 16" barrels. I had 30 bullets slated for testing, but my habit of 10rd groups kinda screwed things up. I selected 26.0, 26.7, and 27.5gr. I should have done 5rd groups of 26.0, 26.3, 26.6, 26.9, 27.2, and 27.5. 27.5gr fills to the top of the shoulder, so I'm fairly sure there's some compression. Attached File What do you do when you forget a tripod for the chronograph? Move some busted concrete blocks 15ft forward of the muzzle and git-r-dun. That's also why I chose Prone. Attached File Weather: sunny 95*F, 800ft ASL, 29.9in/Hg, 40% humidity, wind generally head-on up to 8mph I had a long Friday night and Saturday, and the day was quite warm, so I didn't shoot my best and omit the furthest outlier I called in each group. Reference/fouler load: 27.5gr powder under moly'd Hornady 55gr FMJ - about 3000fps. Attached File 26.0gr powder under 62gr Gold Dot: 2737, 2707, 2794, 2805, 2805, 2807, 2792, 2836, 2827, 2775. Average - 2689fps. Extreme Spread - 129fps. Standard Deviation - 40fps. Attached File 26.7gr: 2853, 2856, 2915, 2852, 2848, 2882, 2905, 2845, 2892, 2894. Avg - 2775fps. ES - 70fps. SD - 26fps. Attached File 27.5gr (sat in sunlight for a few minutes): 2978, 3006, 3013, 2988, 3015, 2994, 3025, whoops, 2997, 2978. Avg - 2899fps. ES - 47fps. SD - 17fps. Attached File Fired cases L to R: 27.5, 26.7, 26.0gr. It's only 40 rounds through a cleaned barrel, but these all came out as clean as they went in. I think any flattening is due to the headspace clearance. There were some very slight visual swipes, which I attribute to carbine gas system timing with a slow powder. Nothing else catches my eye or raises my neck hair. Attached File If you have data regarding CFE223 and 62gr Gold Dots, I welcome you to share it. I'm considering testing up to 28.2gr if the case capacity allows. |
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Attached File Speer lists 27.8 gr of CFE223 as a max load that is not compressed in a Federal case. Although I think Federal are one of the cases with more internal volume? I'm interested in this thread and should be able to provide some data soon. I have a bulk pack of 1000 of these projectiles. I think your stated goal of accuracy is optimistic however. Gold Dots are pretty accurate for bonded bullets, but the "best" I've been able to do is about 1" in other calibers. If I have similar results with CFE223 in my barrel at or near max, i.e. <2 MOA accuracy and about 30000 fps, I'll call it good enough for soclal work and load a bunch. |
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Quoted: Mean radius. I'm already better than needed, but if I can go faster and maybe tighter, why not? I initially missed the aspect of accuracy as mean radius not group size. Now I see what you're trying to do. If you can go faster with better accuracy, by all means. CFE223 typically produces better accuracy at higher loads. |
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Quoted: My goal was 3000fps and <0.6 MOA. Freefloated, freshly cleaned 16" carbine, 4x scope, 2-stage trigger, rested on sandbags Prone. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20210612_130232_jpg-2045981.JPG Once-fired IMI Razorcore cases sized to -0.006" headspace clearance, 0.218" ID neck, trimmed to 1.750", VLD chamfered, primer crimp reamed. The flash holes were some of the best I've ever seen - only one had a burr to remove - so I didn't bother uniforming. CCI #41s were seated flush. The 62gr Gold Dots were seated to a COAL of 2.250" +/-0.005". https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20210728_100935__1_b_jpg-2046015.JPG Interesting cap that looks crimped onto the base. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20210730_093616_HDR_jpg-2046017.JPG Next to a moly'd M855 bullet. 0.905" to 0.810" long. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/Message_1627656085351b_jpg-2046019.JPG Hodgdon lists the MAX .223 charge under 60gr VMAX and 63gr SP as 26.7gr making 3150fps from a 24" barrel. Hornady lists MAX .223 charge under their 60-62gr bullets as 27.4gr making 3200fps from I assume 24" barrel. Hornady's MAX 5.56 charge is 27.7gr making 3150fps from I assume 20" barrel. "Real world" data says 26.8gr makes 2840fps and 27.5gr made "about" 2900fps from 16" barrels. I had 30 bullets slated for testing, but my habit of 10rd groups kinda screwed things up. I selected 26.0, 26.7, and 27.5gr. I should have done 5rd groups of 26.0, 26.3, 26.6, 26.9, 27.2, and 27.5. 27.5gr fills to the top of the shoulder, so I'm fairly sure there's some compression. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20210730_115614_jpg-2046016.JPG Prior experience with this Shooting Chrony indicates that it overreads by 100fps. What do you do when you forget a tripod for the chronograph? Move some busted concrete blocks 15ft forward of the muzzle and git-r-dun. That's also why I chose Prone. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20210807_130454b_jpg-2046024.JPG Weather: sunny 95*F, 800ft ASL, 29.9in/Hg, 40% humidity, wind generally head-on up to 8mph I had a long Friday night and Saturday, and the day was quite warm, so I didn't shoot my best and omit the furthest outlier I called in each group. Reference/fouler load: 27.5gr powder under moly'd Hornady 55gr FMJ - about 3100fps. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/27_5gr_CFE223_under_55gr_FMJ_jpg-2046000.JPG 26.0gr powder under 62gr Gold Dot: 2737, 2707, 2794, 2805, 2805, 2807, 2792, 2836, 2827, 2775. Average - 2789fps. Extreme Spread - 129fps. Standard Deviation - 40fps. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/26_0gr_CFE223_under_62gr_Gold_Dot_jpg-2046001.JPG 26.7gr: 2853, 2856, 2915, 2852, 2848, 2882, 2905, 2845, 2892, 2894. Avg - 2875fps. ES - 70fps. SD - 26fps. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/26_7gr_CFE223_under_62gr_Gold_Dot_jpg-2046002.JPG 27.5gr (sat in sunlight for a few minutes): 2978, 3006, 3013, 2988, 3015, 2994, 3025, whoops, 2997, 2978. Avg - 2999fps. ES - 47fps. SD - 17fps. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/27_5gr_CFE223_under_62gr_Gold_Dot_jpg-2046005.JPG Fired cases L to R: 27.5, 26.7, 26.0gr. It's only 40 rounds through a cleaned barrel, but these all came out as clean as they went in. I think any flattening is due to the headspace clearance. There were some very slight visual swipes, which I attribute to carbine gas system timing with a slow powder. Nothing else catches my eye or raises my neck hair. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20210808_225151_jpg-2046020.JPG If you have data regarding CFE223 and 62gr Gold Dots, I welcome you to share it. I'm considering testing up to 28.2gr if the case capacity allows. Not Gold Dots, but I use these 62 grain Hornady, HP BT w/c, exclusive from Midsouth Shooters Supply: 22 Caliber .224 Diameter 62 Grain BTHP With Cannelure I load 26.2 CFE 223 and average 1 MOA with both a 20 inch rifle and a 16 inch carbine. Powder is clean, meters well and since the load is not compressed, I can use my Redding Competition Seater Die: Redding Competition Bullet Seating Die |
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Quoted: Got any velocity numbers? I do now that I am home, I posted earlier from work. My notes say that these shots were from 26.0 load of CFE 223. I increased to 26.2 and the group shrank but I didnt bother to shoot over the chorny. 5 shot average out of the 20 inch AR 2835 FPS 2791 2807 2813 2860 2903 and 5 shot average from the 16 inch 2720 FPS. 2712 2735 2743 2712 2698 Shooting Beta Chorny, 10 - 12 feet in front of muzzle. I have compared to other chronographs and have not had the 100 FPS variation that you stated. Mine has been precise. Hope this helps. Good luck! |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/314595/Speer_62GD_556_Data_JPG-2046109.JPG Speer lists 27.8 gr of CFE223 as a max load that is not compressed in a Federal case. Although I think Federal are one of the cases with more internal volume? Huh. Comparing their .223 to 5.56 data - maxes of 26.0gr makes 3140fps and 27.8gr makes 3088fps respectively, from 24" barrels. Weird. |
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Quoted: Huh. Comparing their .223 to 5.56 data - maxes of 26.0gr makes 3140fps and 27.8gr makes 3088fps respectively, from 24" barrels. Weird. Quoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/314595/Speer_62GD_556_Data_JPG-2046109.JPG Speer lists 27.8 gr of CFE223 as a max load that is not compressed in a Federal case. Although I think Federal are one of the cases with more internal volume? Huh. Comparing their .223 to 5.56 data - maxes of 26.0gr makes 3140fps and 27.8gr makes 3088fps respectively, from 24" barrels. Weird. That is strange. I can't speak to the 62gr GD bullet in .223/5.56, but my experiences with 123gr 7.62x39, 90gr .380, 220 gr .35 Whelen, 250 gr .35 Whelen and 150 gr .308 are that if I followed Speer's data for their bullet, my results were in general agreement with their published data. Obviously every barrel is different. |
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Quoted: The 5.56mm data is from a 20" barrel. Quoted: Quoted: Huh. Comparing their .223 to 5.56 data - maxes of 26.0gr makes 3140fps and 27.8gr makes 3088fps respectively, from 24" barrels. Weird. I would just happen to take the dropdown menu route to a copy paste error. At least they changed the primer. Attached File |
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Quoted: Wow. Old barrel? Or maybe there's quite a difference in powder Lots. Quoted: Quoted: I'm at 2750fps, 27.2 gr from a 16" barrel. I think my chronograph is suspect. I've consistently gotten slower results than expected with everything I load. |
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Move your chrono in closer. It is not needed to be that far out. I run mine about 3-4 feet from the muzzle. If you have a muzzle brake or flash holder this works as most of the gas does not go strait ou. If the muzzle is bare then it can have an effect. For shotgun I run it about a foot in front and about 1-1.5 feet lower than the muzzle. Already have lost 2 of them shooting and testing slugs from the wads and gas seals. My 62gr hpbt hornady with 26.1gr Tactical Rifle from SW powders is going 2967fps out of my $30 barrel from Numrich arms. 16" Saber defence 556 NATO 1-8 twist I think. Shoots right at an inch. 22" save bolt gun it shoots under 3/4" with about 125fps faster. |
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Quoted: Huh. Comparing their .223 to 5.56 data - maxes of 26.0gr makes 3140fps and 27.8gr makes 3088fps respectively, from 24" barrels. Weird. Speer number 15 says to expect a 30 FPS loss per inch. So, translating the above to a 20 inch barrel = 3020 and 2968...... and a 16 inch would come out to 2900 and 2848. That is a bit faster that the data I posted above. Different cases, rifle, chrono and temperature could all cause that difference. |
I missed recording one shot of each string.  70*F. 27.8gr CFE223 2878, 2917, 2927, 2898. Average - 2905fps. Extreme Spread - 49fps. Standard Deviation - 22fps. Attached File 28.2gr CFE223 2905, 2930, 2917, 2942. Avg - 2924fps. ES - 37fps. SD - 16fps. Attached File 28.2gr and 27.8gr. 62gr Gold Dots in upper-left. Hornady 55gr FMJ lower-right. Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: I initially missed the aspect of accuracy as mean radius not group size. Now I see what you're trying to do. If you can go faster with better accuracy, by all means. CFE223 typically produces better accuracy at higher loads. True, but he is using a bullet that typically produces better accuracy at lower velocities. |
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Interesting to me as I recently went through this same exercise, albeit with H335. Attached File 24.4 and 24.6 were the richest groups. 25gr is the max listed by Speer, but I saw no pressure signs at 25 so I've considered going a bit higher. That said, I've not found the 62gr Good Dots to be that accurate which mirrors my factory Gold Dot tests. IMHO, this type of bullet suits itself well to a "velocity is king" mindset with the understanding that the best you're going to get is 1-2 MOA if you do that. I'm fine with that, YMMV and all. |
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