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Posted: 8/4/2026 10:01:38 PM EDT
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45ACP RMR 230gr fmj loaded with 4.6 gr Titegroup with an oal of 1.23x-1.24x (Mixed brass) has been my go to but im out of Titegroup. I loaded up 50 cartridges with same specs of WST. This is a mid-level load based on everything I've read. They shot soft but pretty smokey. Google suggests I should increase length to 1.25-1.26. Reason being, the concave lead base is vaporizing. Went further to suggest if I keep my oal I should reduce the WST load to 4.2-4.3gr. This is google AI but dammit, it sounds logical.  What do you guys think? I understand the concept, not sure which direction to go. |
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Your COAL of 1.230" explains exactly why the load is running smokey, as it is seated significantly deeper than the standard industry specification for a 230-grain Round Nose FMJ.The standard Cartridge Overall Length for a typical 230gr FMJ (like the RMR Bullets Round Nose FMJ) is 1.260" to 1.275". By seating down to 1.230", you have pushed the bullet deep into the casing, severely crushing the internal powder capacity. What is Happening Inside the Casing The Pressure Spike: Seating a deep, heavy 230gr bullet down to 1.230" spikes chamber pressures much faster than the standard mid-range data suggests. The Quick Escape: Because Winchester Super Target (WST) is an incredibly fast-burning powder, it reaches peak pressure almost instantly. In a deeply seated cartridge, it blows the bullet out of the case mouth very aggressively before the powder can fully combust. The Unburned Powder Smoke: The powder charge hasn't fully burned by the time the bullet leaves the case and the action begins opening. The residual unburned powder and super-heated gas exit the breech, creating the distinct "smoke" cloud you are seeing. The Clean Casing Clue: The fact that your brass is only a little black confirms that you have enough pressure to achieve case obturation (the brass is sealing against the chamber walls properly). The smoke is not leakage blowing backward past the rim; it is simply unburned fuel escaping out of the muzzle and open breech. Actionable Steps to Fix It Lengthen your COAL: Move your seating die out to an overall length of 1.260". This is the standard profile length for 230gr round nose profile bullets. It restores the proper internal combustion area, slowing down the initial pressure curve and allowing the powder to burn completely inside the barrel rather than out in the air. Perform a Plunk Test: Drop one of your newly seated 1.260" dummy rounds into your removed pistol barrel. It should drop in flush under its own weight and spin freely. If it does, you are good to go. Keep the 4.6gr Charge: Do not increase the powder charge while your COAL is at 1.230", as you are already playing with elevated pressure due to the reduced case volume. Once you extend the length to 1.260", your 4.6-grain charge will perform beautifully, feel much smoother, and burn noticeably cleaner. This is what google says^. |
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I usually use 4.5 - 4.8 of WST for 155s to 230s. No problems with smoke if shooting jacketed or plated. Cast bullet lube will make nasty smoke (especially noticeable indoors). Winchester 2003 data: Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Redman556: First thing OP, don't ever ask AI about anything regarding load data. Get a load data book, or three. At least go to the powder manufacturer's website and get your load data from there. |
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Originally Posted By Redman556: First thing OP, don't ever ask AI about anything regarding load data. Get a load data book, or three. At least go to the powder manufacturer's website and get your load data from there. I assure you, I confirmed load data with various sources including the mfg.. fmj 230gr RN 4.1-4.9 and that's loaded to 1.220.  That said, nobody seems to be disputing the advice AI gave me as posted above... |
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Originally Posted By cb4017: I've used WST for years in .45 acp. I use 4.5-4.9 grains behind a 230 gr bullet, cast, plated or FMJ. OAL around 1.250", depending on the bullet. I don't recall excess smoke with any of them. I don’t remember my load in .45 ACP, but don’t recall excessive smoke. |
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Smoky loads almost always point to incomplete powder burn. Some powders like Unique need to be loaded a little warm before the smoke clears, to make a mild pun. WST is considered a "low smoke" powder, so I'd compare your OAL with some load data from a couple of different manuals to see if you just have a not-so-great combination of powder weight and OAL. Also, to "vaporize" exposed lead, not only would the expanding powder gas need to be really hot, it would need contact with the bullet base for long enough for that heat to transfer to the bullet, and need plenty of hot mass for that heat transfer to actually work. That's almost certainly not going to happen with powder gasses in a 5-inch long pistol barrel. Here, I call Google's AI out for BS. It pulled that explanation out of its digital orifice. |
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I am trying to rack the ol’ memory banks here, but this might be the very first time I have heard of using WST for .45ACP. WST for major power factor .40 cal loads? Yeah, definitely. I am a Clays guy for .45ACP. First. Then Winchester 231 / HP-38 is my second choice. Unfortunately, reloading 12 gauge with Clays has cut into my inventory. If this war in Ukraine would ever end, maybe that factory in Canada would start making Clays again. |
| Yeah funny how General Dynamics makes 3031 4350 in Canada. But of course 4227 and 8208 are made down under! |
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Don't be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better.
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Google's comments on what should be the 45's OAL are pure nonsense. It's proof that it has no clue about ammunition, at all. Load manuals data for the OAL of 230 gr. round nose, FMJ or cast, are all over the map, from 1.200 and up, but not to exceed 1.275" which is the SAAMI max for the 45 ACP cartridge (longer than that might not fit in the magazine). Follow the OAL suggested by whatever load manual you're using for the exact bullet you're using. Here's what matters. It has to fit in the magazine. It has to feed reliably. It has to pass the plunk test = it must fit in the chamber freely and rotate and drop out without sticking. Here's instructions on the plunk test: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/99389 |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter: Smoky loads almost always point to incomplete powder burn. Some powders like Unique need to be loaded a little warm before the smoke clears, to make a mild pun. WST is considered a "low smoke" powder, so I'd compare your OAL with some load data from a couple of different manuals to see if you just have a not-so-great combination of powder weight and OAL. Also, to "vaporize" exposed lead, not only would the expanding powder gas need to be really hot, it would need contact with the bullet base for long enough for that heat to transfer to the bullet, and need plenty of hot mass for that heat transfer to actually work. That's almost certainly not going to happen with powder gasses in a 5-inch long pistol barrel. Here, I call Google's AI out for BS. It pulled that explanation out of its digital orifice. This is where we get into the “old wive’s tales” or “urban legends” in reloading. Supposedly, the USPSA open division guys like shooting jacketed hollow points through their compensator equipped race guns. The theory is that an FMJ type bullet has an exposed lead base, and that lead gets deposited on the baffles of the compensator. With a JHP bullet, the base is completely wrapped in the copper jacket, so no lead is exposed. In turn, no lead gets deposited on the compensator baffles. That’s their theory…anyways. As I cast more lead 9mm boolits, powder coat them, and shoot them through my two Open guns, ya’ll be the first to know if my baffles have turned blue. |
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Originally Posted By rn22723: Yeah funny how General Dynamics makes 3031 4350 in Canada. But of course 4227 and 8208 are made down under! I would be curious if the Australians are making their own nitrocellulose, too. I think I read somewhere that our main nitrocellulose plant here in the US was in Virginia or maybe West Virgina. So between that and St. Marks, talk about putting all your eggs in one basket.  |
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Originally Posted By WeimaranerDad: I would be curious if the Australians are making their own nitrocellulose, too. I think I read somewhere that our main nitrocellulose plant here in the US was in Virginia or maybe West Virgina. So between that and St. Marks, talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. Originally Posted By WeimaranerDad: Originally Posted By rn22723: Yeah funny how General Dynamics makes 3031 4350 in Canada. But of course 4227 and 8208 are made down under! I would be curious if the Australians are making their own nitrocellulose, too. I think I read somewhere that our main nitrocellulose plant here in the US was in Virginia or maybe West Virgina. So between that and St. Marks, talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. https://saami.org/saami-welcomes-supply-energetics-to-institute/ https://www.supplyenergetics.com/ Relief is coming, I hope. It's a part of D&M holdings, which owns white river energetics. |
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Originally Posted By SBR7_11: WST been the way to do lead for many yr here, recoil softer than everybody favorite 231 I called somebody yrs ago about lack of data for WST in 45acp, they got upset and told me WST is not for 45acp. Load yours and use chrono to check where you be Pffft you can make some match accurate .45 ACP with WST and Clays. Yes they’re fast and clean but I wouldn’t push them hard with those two. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter: Smoky loads almost always point to incomplete powder burn. Some powders like Unique need to be loaded a little warm before the smoke clears, to make a mild pun. WST is considered a "low smoke" powder, so I'd compare your OAL with some load data from a couple of different manuals to see if you just have a not-so-great combination of powder weight and OAL. Also, to "vaporize" exposed lead, not only would the expanding powder gas need to be really hot, it would need contact with the bullet base for long enough for that heat to transfer to the bullet, and need plenty of hot mass for that heat transfer to actually work. That's almost certainly not going to happen with powder gasses in a 5-inch long pistol barrel. Here, I call Google's AI out for BS. It pulled that explanation out of its digital orifice. I want to add to this. Cast bullets that are lubed, smoke like crazy. It's the lube burning off. Just a tidbit for those starting to shoot cast. |
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Originally Posted By PoppaCapp: I want to add to this. Cast bullets that are lubed, smoke like crazy. It's the lube burning off. Just a tidbit for those starting to shoot cast. |
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Originally Posted By cb4017: I've used WST for years in .45 acp. I use 4.5-4.9 grains behind a 230 gr bullet, cast, plated or FMJ. OAL around 1.250", depending on the bullet. I don't recall excess smoke with any of them. Op. I doubt melting lead is smoking. |
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I was digging thru my pistol reloading notes today and remembered this thread. In 2005 I was loading 5.2 grs WST with a 200 gr cast SWC. Was a fine shooting load given to me from a shooting buddy. Loaded that load many times my notes showed until the 3 pound tin went dry. Then I discovered Clays, and used that for my SWC loads. |
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Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
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