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Posted: 8/17/2026 6:52:55 PM EDT
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So I’ve loaded plenty of fodder pistol ammo over the years and I’m normally chasing the lowest cost per round. Recently I’ve taken to revolvers and I’m interested to load some more accurate ammo. I’m currently loading some 38 special +p with a 158 gr bear creek supply SWC with CFE pistol powder on my Hornady lock n load using Lee dies and the Lee factory crimp die for 38/357 for the final crimp. Using mixed brass, my extreme spread is currently over 100fps. With mixed brass is this the best I can expect? With this being 38 special there is some wadcutter brass mixed in, and I’ve not trimmed the brass to a uniform length. Should I choose a different powder? What do you think is acceptable for extreme spread in pistol ammo? Should I just shoot for groups and move on? |
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Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger: Should I just shoot for groups and move on? Unless you're doing bullseye or shooting so far that you're dropping your pistol bullets in a rainbow-trajectory, this is exactly what you should do. Don't overthink it, it's not that deep. Don't get me wrong, ES can affect groups, but at pistol distances, group size and shape will tell you what you need. IMHO, unless you're doing bullseye-type shooting, there's a real limit at which chasing pistol accuracy just doesn't matter any more. Speed of sight acquisition and trigger pull then become your goal. Move between different targets, hitting each one once, twice, three times, etc.. |
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Originally Posted By GlutealCleft: Unless you're doing bullseye or shooting so far that you're dropping your pistol bullets in a rainbow-trajectory, this is exactly what you should do. Don't overthink it, it's not that deep. Don't get me wrong, ES can affect groups, but at pistol distances, group size and shape will tell you what you need. IMHO, unless you're doing bullseye-type shooting, there's a real limit at which chasing pistol accuracy just doesn't matter any more. Speed of sight acquisition and trigger pull then become your goal. Move between different targets, hitting each one once, twice, three times, etc.. Fair enough, that’s normally where I’m at, but this instance I could occasionally notice the lower velocity rounds from the recoil difference. That might be due to me loading in the higher end of the 38 spectrum. I’ll also say that I had loaded some 45 AR with some 255gr SWC and was experiencing some fairly odd accuracy from that load at 100 yards with acceptable accuracy, all in the black of a B8, at 25. I’ve adjusted the crimp to see if that was affecting anything but haven’t had the chance to test that load at distance again and put it all on the Doppler. |
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Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger: Fair enough, that’s normally where I’m at, but this instance I could occasionally notice the lower velocity rounds from the recoil difference. That might be due to me loading in the higher end of the 38 spectrum. I’ll also say that I had loaded some 45 AR with some 255gr SWC and was experiencing some fairly odd accuracy from that load at 100 yards with acceptable accuracy, all in the black of a B8, at 25. I’ve adjusted the crimp to see if that was affecting anything but haven’t had the chance to test that load at distance again and put it all on the Doppler. Yeah, if you can FEEL the difference in recoil... that's a lot. If that's the case, I'd check as well. I don't know 38spl +p loads, but I've seen similar with low-power, fast-burning charges in .45acp. Bumping up the charge helped, but if you're already in +p territory, that's probably not it. Hotter primers for more consistent ignition maybe? |
| Yeah the difference with a 158 going 1025 or 1125 was noticeable in my lighter 67-1 and since I was paying attention to it even in my 19-10. I’m using Winchester SP primers so I was doubting ignition issues. I’ll try a lower load and see what happens. The higher load I initially tried was too much for what I’m trying to achieve. |
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I am not sure about the Lee FC but most other brands of crimping depend on brass length for a uniform crimp. Having said that I have not trimmed 38 spl brass in 40 years. I might suggest the op buys one bag of new 38spl brass and try his load in that and see if his extreme spread or his accuracy improves . If so I might sugest he brand sorts his mixed brass and possibly tries trimming some to see if stuff settles down. I have never tried CFE and for 38spl I am kind of old school----Bullseye, green dot ,231 or 700X |
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One of the beauties of 38 spl is all the hard work has been done as far as load developing. Hollow based wadcutter (like the Hornaday with 2.7-2.9 grains of Bullseye. You flair out the case so you don't scrape up the soft lead bullet then after seating flush you use the crimp die to bring the case back to straight . Not crimped , just moving the case mouth back to straight |
OP, don’t listen to the people telling you to settle for good enough. These are all 50 yard groups. Attached FileAttached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By rock71: OP, don’t listen to the people telling you to settle for good enough. These are all 50 yard groups. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55995/IMG_3142_jpeg-3813111.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55995/IMG_3143_jpeg-3813112.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55995/IMG_4247_jpeg-3813113.JPGThat’s some amazing shooting right there. The load I’m working on is an affordable field load for practice. I’ve got a handful of the Buffalo bore 38+p SWCHP and the lost river 38+p loads that I’d like to get close too. This is also a test bed for when I load the rim rock 158 SWCHP gas check that is used in the BB loads. The average velocity is about right where I want it and offhand I was able to keep in the black of a B8 at 30 yards yesterday, but the extreme spread and felt recoil had me pause. I’ll probably dig out some starline brass to load a couple cylinders to see what that does for my consistency. |
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Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger: That’s some amazing shooting right there. The load I’m working on is an affordable field load for practice. I’ve got a handful of the Buffalo bore 38+p SWCHP and the lost river 38+p loads that I’d like to get close too. This is also a test bed for when I load the rim rock 158 SWCHP gas check that is used in the BB loads. The average velocity is about right where I want it and offhand I was able to keep in the black of a B8 at 30 yards yesterday, but the extreme spread and felt recoil had me pause. I’ll probably dig out some starline brass to load a couple cylinders to see what that does for my consistency. Admittedly, Those are target loads. But, some of the good factory 158s aren’t far behind. Good luck. |
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Originally Posted By rn22723: Bullseye with a 148gr WC is like magic. 2.7 in 38 special case and 3.0 in 357 case!  Those are the same exact loads I use. And I do trim all of my revolver brass the first time I load it, never needs it again. I like perfect crimps, so I trim and debur. |
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OP, accuracy with +P loads is typically a more flexible concept than accuracy with mild, target loads. If your hot loads print pretty much where you want them, you’re probably doing fine. On the other hand, there are things you can do to reduce variability of your components, which should reduce your extreme spread, and maybe tighten your groups. The first one, and probably the most important here, is to use brass of the same length. Velocity depends on many things. But if the crimp on each round isn’t in the same place on the case, it won’t hold the bullet the same way. This will cause variability in the time between powder ignition and when the bullet moves. This will in turn cause small changes in chamber pressure, which will show up as changes in muzzle velocity. The more variability in that crimp, the more variability in velocity. In order to get a consistent crimp, you need cases that are the same length. That means either laboriously sorting cases and settling for some range of lengths, or trimming those cases to a single, standard length. That’s the bad news. The good news is that this is the last time you’ll trim those cases. |
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ES = 100 fps seems a little bit high to me but not unreasonable. I'll go and find some of my data for 38 +P. For now, here's some of my data on 45 ACP. WINCHESTER BRASS Mean, fps = 766.2 SD, fps = 17.4 ES, fps = 89.4 n = 32 MIXED BRASS Mean, fps = 836 SD,fps = 11.7 ES, fps = 47.7 n = 31 In both tests, the ES was driven upwards by an anomalously high velocity round. It is my belief this is caused by non-uniform thrown charge weights (W231), or at least that is a major contributing factor. Another observation, also unproven, many times the first round fired is different than those that follow (typically higher). To me, as long as the ES does not get out of hand, the relatively low SD is all that's important to keep my ammo reliable and safe. To me, that is all that matters, as long as they all stay in the black at 15-25 yards. I am not a bullseye pistol shooter ("Should I just shoot for groups?"). If you are, perhaps more work might be indicated. Do you have accuracy data for these loads? |
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Originally Posted By rock71: OP, don’t listen to the people telling you to settle for good enough. These are all 50 yard groups. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55995/IMG_3142_jpeg-3813111.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55995/IMG_3143_jpeg-3813112.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55995/IMG_4247_jpeg-3813113.JPGThat's good shooting, especially at 50 yards. |
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I looked through all the test results I have for 38 Special, including lightly loaded 357 cases, and multiple bullet weights and bullet types. For these cartridges, I have W231 and W296 data only. All the results indicate ES is about 100 fps. Some have higher ES, some have lower but they are all near enough to 100 fps as to make no difference. I have no accuracy data for any of them (no group sizes). All these loads use thrown charges. I hope this helps in some way. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer: I looked through all the test results I have for 38 Special, including lightly loaded 357 cases, and multiple bullet weights and bullet types. For these cartridges, I have W231 and W296 data only. All the results indicate ES is about 100 fps. Some have higher ES, some have lower but they are all near enough to 100 fps as to make no difference. I have no accuracy data for any of them (no group sizes). All these loads use thrown charges. I hope this helps in some way. Thank you. That was exactly the feedback I was looking for. I’m loading two cylinders of starline at my current load and then two cylinders of a lower load with the mixed brass to see if it makes any difference in the ES. Might be this weekend before I can shoot it though. |
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Originally Posted By nhsport: I agree, but I get noticeably better results with a magnum primer for the 3.0 357 case My groups got worst. Probably an individual gun thing. |
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There are some cheat code loads. The 38/357 load are golden with Bullseye I do not remember off the top of my head the USMC Marksmanship Unit 45 ACP the bullet is a Nosler 45 Cal 185gr JHP, N310, Winchester brass and WLP (Virgin brass for 50yd, 1-2X for 25yd). That is like cheating even with multifired brass. |
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So I assembled a few new loads and just shot for velocities out of my 67-5 This is a 130gr round nose from bear creek loaded with N310, mixed brass, and Argentinian primers. Attached File This was a 140xtp with starline brass and Ba7 1/2 Attached File This was the 158swc with a lower load, mixed brass cfe pistol, and win spp. Attached File This was the 158 swc with original warm load of cfe pistol, but with starline brass, and win spp. Attached File |
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Just for giggles I shot a 357 load form the 19-10. 158gr HP seconds, IMR 4227, mixed brass, and win smpp. Attached File So from what I’m seeing is that the starline brass made a small improvement on the 158 swc load. It’s possible that my sample size is too small though. The N310 load was also a small sample size but the ES was markedly lower than all the others |
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In reviewing my data, I found some strings of 3 or 5 or 6 shots whose stats differed from those of the 20 or 32 shot data. The small samples often had lower ES/SD. I largely disregard them, well, ... sort of. Tell me, how are you dispensing your powder for these loads - measured/weighed or thrown from a volumetric powder measure? I ask because I believe in my data powder charge variability is the biggest driver. I throw charges from the measure on my 550. I don't know how important the crimp is to velocity. I can say, if it isn't sufficient, bullet movement under recoil can lock up your cylinder. Don't ask how I know. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer: In reviewing my data, I found some strings of 3 or 5 or 6 shots whose stats differed from those of the 20 or 32 shot data. The small samples often had lower ES/SD. I largely disregard them, well, ... sort of. Tell me, how are you dispensing your powder for these loads - measured/weighed or thrown from a volumetric powder measure? I ask because I believe in my data powder charge variability is the biggest driver. I throw charges from the measure on my 550. I don't know how important the crimp is to velocity. I can say, if it isn't sufficient, bullet movement under recoil can lock up your cylinder. Don't ask how I know. All of these with exception of the 140 xtp load were loaded on my Hornady L-N-L progressive using the hornady case activated powder measure. The 140 XTP load was with a RCBS uniflow so same/ similar. At this point I think I might look at another powder for this specific load, I've got some longshot on hand and I might even try some autocomp. |
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OP, are you throwing charges? Even with a good powder hopper throws will generally be +/- .10 gn, with extreme spreads landing around the +/- .30 gn. Not usually significant with larger charges, but small pistol charges an extreme difference of .6 gn between highest and lowest will be noticeable. Throw in the variable of mixed, untrimmed brass, and you have some potential for tolerance stacking. If you have a good digital scale try hitting tare on each case, then drop a powder charge and weigh the case again. Dump and re-throw anything outside +/- .05 Load 10 that way and see what your velocity does. |
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For anyone interested in this I found that HP-38 and blue dot were also inconsistent. Autocomp faired a little better than the rest so I loaded the rest of the bullets I had with it. Autocomp was blastier which I did anticipate. If I had it on hand and wasn’t ready to get my press swapped over to 45 I would’ve tried accurate #5 and HS6. The lost river load that I was trying to approximate has an ES under 50 for reference. |
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What can a reloader do? Weigh cases and use only those closely grouped by weight. Uniform the primer pocket (just for the heck of it). Trim to uniform length (to aid in uniformity of crimping). Hand weigh powder charges. Maybe make a small batch (20 rounds) using those steps and see what you get. If that doesn't get you there, something is wrong. Because beyond those simple measures, it starts to get obsessive (OCD) with things like weighing and segregating bullets and case fillers on top of powder charge. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer: What can a reloader do? Weigh cases and use only those closely grouped by weight. Uniform the primer pocket (just for the heck of it). Trim to uniform length (to aid in uniformity of crimping). Hand weigh powder charges. Maybe make a small batch (20 rounds) using those steps and see what you get. If that doesn't get you there, something is wrong. Because beyond those simple measures, it starts to get obsessive (OCD) with things like weighing and segregating bullets and case fillers on top of powder charge. Yeah all that is many steps too far for me and what I am trying to achieve. The N310 having a low ES with the same loading process and mixed brass leads me to believe that my equipment is sufficient as long as the powder combination is right. I’m just not sure what the right powder is. I suspect the 38 special case having such large volume for its pressure really hurts it unless you have a position insensitive and fast burning powder, or a non canister grade like some loaders have access to. Now obviously wadcutter loads get around this by taking up more of the case volume with a large bullet. |
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Truly, it is too much for pistol loads. I posted that in the context of one small batch, one time only, to see if it made a difference. I suspect it would not. If you have a powder, process and result with which YOU are satisfied, then you are done. Load 'em up. |
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I would not be concerned with extreme spread. As you noted, the 38 Special's large case capacity is part of the problem. And, most important, ES and SD are not correlated with accuracy for the typical gun at 25 yards. See the article below. https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/ |
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