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AZ, USA
Posted: 7/11/2024 2:47:15 PM EDT
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I ordered a $1000 AR-10 from Palmetto. I'm new to AZ so I used the FFL they recommended when I ordered. Tracking says my gun arrived several days ago, however, the information Palmetto gave me was Bogus and it looks like the FFL is no longer valid. I called Palmetto and they (very rudely) told me that I need to find them and sue the bogus (non existent) FFL Holder. So, let me understand this... THEY tell me who is the local FFL, I believe them and they ship my gun to some bogus person that probably has stolen my gun? Who are these worthless POS fukwads at Palmetto anyway? They seem like a Total SCAM to me. My ONLY recourse is that I have a great relationship with my bank and they are trying to reverse the transaction. |
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@palmettostatearmory Josiah may can sort it out. It had to be a valid FFL on file for PSA to ship it. |
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Originally Posted By Ohiogators: Yeah, I don't know that I agree with that. If PSA is gonna recommend FFLs (which they do), shouldn't they be verifying? I wouldn't expect them to constantly audit that list of FFLs on file to see when one goes out of business or fails to renew. As a buyer, you should absolutely be pre-screening your desired delivery FFL to make sure they are willing to accept the shipment, and of course are still in business, IMO. |
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Yea, well learned lessons are never free, right. I haven't bought a firearm for several years as I work in the Defense Industry and I was living in New Jersey until I move permanently to AZ. I heard good things about Palmetto so I ordered an AR-10. I have previously (over 20+ years) ordered various weapons in Texas and the seller always gave me a good FFL to receive my gun. I assumed (ass you me) that whomever Palmetto supplied would be satisfactory. Turns out all Palmetto has is an address, no other contact info. After doing some online digging the FFL appears that it may not be valid anymore. The shock to me was the rude, flippant attitude of Palmetto "Service" people. They essentially told me that this is my problem not theirs and I could pound sand. I guess I'm going to have to talk to the ATF and see if they can find the AHole who is running around with my gun. The FFL is Listed As: VIPER PRECISION INDUSTRIES 95 N MATTIE CANYON DR SAHUARITA, Arizona, 85629 However they are no longer "in business". This is a house and the current resident does not appear to have anything to do with the FFL Holder. |
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AZ, USA
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Seems like a wide open hole in the FFL process if they are just gonna send a firearm to some random address which used to be some sort of FFL. Maybe I'll get lucky and move to a home where there used to be an FFL holder and Palmetto will start shipping me free guns. I would think, that with all the regulations that Palmetto would be required to make sure the chain of custody of the firearm was to an actual, legit FFL holder at a valid address. I can't imaging that it would be easier for Palmetto to willy nilly ship guns out than it would be for a actual human to buy one from a gun shop. Good thing Hunter Biden didn't know all this. 
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Well, the FFL # is still valid. Presumably the resident signed for the gun - have you tried going there and asking if they got a package for you? https://fflezcheck.atf.gov/FFLEzCheck/fflSearch https://www.ffls.com/ffl/986019075e06386/viper-precision-industries-llc |
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Originally Posted By LWB78750: So, if I walk into some sort of Gun Shop it is **MY** responsibility to make sure they are a legit FFL??? Wow. No, but it is your responsibility to know where you want your gun shipped. I always give my FFL a heads up as a courtesy that he has something coming. |
"Some people have issues. Sounds like he signed up for an entire subscription." ~Brohawk
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Originally Posted By LWB78750: So, if I walk into some sort of Gun Shop it is **MY** responsibility to make sure they are a legit FFL??? Wow. It's your responsibility to establish communications w/ the receiving FFL before they receive your gun. I might be on vacation. I might charge $500 per SN per transfer. Did you call their 800 # & leave a message? |
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AZ, USA
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OK Thanks. That's good news. I will go there today/tonight. What if the "resident" is NOT the FFL holder - Hopefully he will hand me the gun? In that case there is no FFL paperwork? I'm sure the ATF would love that. I'm sure that some sort of felony. What if he refuses to hand me the gun? Recourse? After all Palmetto does not give a shit, so I'm sure they won't help me. Also, the person who signed was named "Johns" but the current tax records say "Muhammad" lives there. Is there a name associated with this "Viper" place? |
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I would tend to believe that most online buyers are more like me than like you. Remember, Palmetto told be who was "legit" and they are guiding people through the process. I'm sure there was a time when even you had no idea that you should do some sort of "verify" first. At the very least, I believe Palmetto should be obligated to have some sort of warning message, at least if they want to avoid litigation. Hell, even the gas pump says "Do not drink". I suspect that there is more chance of this happening to your average person than of an average person drinking gasoline. |
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AZ, USA
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Thanks for the help. I tried to find something like this. Even if I do have success getting my gun, I think that it just might be in Palmettos interest to provide THIS sort of support rather than you (nice) guys. Thanks again. BTW I have considered getting an FFL myself. I work for the Defense Industry (I worked on the Javelin and Patriot programs, along with a lot of others since the 1990s). I know a lot of people who buy guns. Is it worth the hassle? |
Did I make it in before OP gets his own custom lower receiver?  My man, in this day and age, it is common for some random dude to operate an FFL out of his house. You don't just order a gun and have it sent somewhere without first calling that somewhere to make sure they are accepting items. There's a million reasons they could say no, like if they're on vacation or they plan on being locked up over the weekend for a DUI. Your pharmacy strawman argument isn't even close to valid, unless you can find where it is possible for some everyday joe with no schooling to get his kitchen table licensed as a pharmacy and then accept customers' drugs mailed to his house. |
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Originally Posted By Make_Mine_Moxie: It was your job to verify the local FFL was legit before you clicked the purchase button. Originally Posted By Make_Mine_Moxie: Originally Posted By LWB78750: So, if I walk into some sort of Gun Shop it is **MY** responsibility to make sure they are a legit FFL??? Wow. Do you think the shipping FFL is absolved of knowing the same thing? |
The Second Amendment: Preserving our right to petition the government - with malice.
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'."
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Virginia Is For Loners (™)
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Originally Posted By d16man: No, but it is your responsibility to know where you want your gun shipped. I always give my FFL a heads up as a courtesy that he has something coming. Originally Posted By d16man: Originally Posted By LWB78750: So, if I walk into some sort of Gun Shop it is **MY** responsibility to make sure they are a legit FFL??? Wow. No, but it is your responsibility to know where you want your gun shipped. I always give my FFL a heads up as a courtesy that he has something coming.
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Originally Posted By Lexington: Do you think the shipping FFL is absolved of knowing the same thing? I doubt they regularly go back and reverify their status, and I doubt Midway, Brownells, etc,do either. |
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Originally Posted By Make_Mine_Moxie: Initially? No, of course not; they should verify it is legit before they add them to their database customers can choose from. I doubt they regularly go back and reverify their status, and I doubt Midway, Brownells, etc,do either. Originally Posted By Make_Mine_Moxie: Originally Posted By Lexington: Do you think the shipping FFL is absolved of knowing the same thing? I doubt they regularly go back and reverify their status, and I doubt Midway, Brownells, etc,do either. Shipping to an active unexpired FFL is inherent in every FFL's responsibilities. Why would they not actively maintain their databases or use the ATF FFL EZ Check? |
The Second Amendment: Preserving our right to petition the government - with malice.
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'."
Virginia Is For Loners (™)
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'."
Virginia Is For Loners (™)
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Originally Posted By LWB78750: OK Thanks. That's good news. I will go there today/tonight. What if the "resident" is NOT the FFL holder - Hopefully he will hand me the gun? In that case there is no FFL paperwork? I'm sure the ATF would love that. I'm sure that some sort of felony. What if he refuses to hand me the gun? Recourse? After all Palmetto does not give a shit, so I'm sure they won't help me. Also, the person who signed was named "Johns" but the current tax records say "Muhammad" lives there. Is there a name associated with this "Viper" place? You haven't even been to the location? How did you determine it was a bogus address? Welcome fellow firearms enthusiast.....  http://www.usbpdiecast.com/Contacts.html |
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PSA is one of the largest distributors of firearms in the nation and probably have more FFLs on file than anyone in the country. And for all intents and purposes their knowledge of the FFL you selected showed that they are in good standing with an active FFL. But since you didn’t do your due diligence as a purchaser and verify that the FFL you selected would be willing to do a transfer for you, it’s PSA’s fault? Situation sucks, but you need to own your part in it as well. There are 1000s of home based FFLs in the country and this might be one… or it might be some guy that got his FFL on file at PSA to buy for himself. You should have done a little research. |
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Originally Posted By Lexington: Shipping to an active unexpired FFL is inherent in every FFL's responsibilities. Why would they not actively maintain their databases or use the ATF FFL EZ Check? Originally Posted By Lexington: Originally Posted By Make_Mine_Moxie: Originally Posted By Lexington: Do you think the shipping FFL is absolved of knowing the same thing? I doubt they regularly go back and reverify their status, and I doubt Midway, Brownells, etc,do either. Shipping to an active unexpired FFL is inherent in every FFL's responsibilities. Why would they not actively maintain their databases or use the ATF FFL EZ Check? That's the problem - Viper's not changed their address. They're still showing as valid in EZ Check. |
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Originally Posted By LWB78750: OK Thanks. That's good news. I will go there today/tonight. What if the "resident" is NOT the FFL holder - Hopefully he will hand me the gun? In that case there is no FFL paperwork? I'm sure the ATF would love that. I'm sure that some sort of felony. What if he refuses to hand me the gun? Recourse? After all Palmetto does not give a shit, so I'm sure they won't help me. Also, the person who signed was named "Johns" but the current tax records say "Muhammad" lives there. Is there a name associated with this "Viper" place? OP, how the hell do you know Viper is out of business? Just b/c the house is owned by a Muhammad doesn't mean his renter isn't operating an FFL out of the house. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, how the hell do you know Viper is out of business? Just b/c the house is owned by a Muhammad doesn't mean his renter isn't operating an FFL out of the house. Reading back through the OP's posts, this is a good question. OP, have you had any contact as all with the person at the address? Originally Posted By coldair: wouldn't be the responsibility of the ATF to inform the shipper if the eligibility of the FFL to recieve the weapon has changed ? The Shipper will usually verify the FFL is still valid and at the same address, which it is. Valid at the Address the OP listed above and doesn't expire until May of next year. If PSA did their part and ran a check before shipping, it would have all look good to go on their end. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: That's the problem - Viper's not changed their address. They're still showing as valid in EZ Check. Originally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By Lexington: Originally Posted By Make_Mine_Moxie: Originally Posted By Lexington: Do you think the shipping FFL is absolved of knowing the same thing? I doubt they regularly go back and reverify their status, and I doubt Midway, Brownells, etc,do either. Shipping to an active unexpired FFL is inherent in every FFL's responsibilities. Why would they not actively maintain their databases or use the ATF FFL EZ Check? That's the problem - Viper's not changed their address. They're still showing as valid in EZ Check. That's the first break in the responsibility chain. |
The Second Amendment: Preserving our right to petition the government - with malice.
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'."
Virginia Is For Loners (™)
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'."
Virginia Is For Loners (™)
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So you didn't call them? The guy who owns the LLC is listed as owning that property at the address. Not sure what's supposed to be weird? Company website, Arizona Corporate Commission, County Assessor's office all line up. |
If you are putting a lot of effort into arguing with me, you are probably really just wasting your time, sorry.
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Originally Posted By perfectsilence: When I have purchased firearms online and had them sent to an FFL, the FFL has made clear to me that they want to be made aware of any incoming firearms. They don’t generally appreciate boxes of mystery guns showing up for them to deal with out of the blue. This, they want a heads up, it just takes a phone call. |
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