Armory Sponsor
Member
Joined:
Jun 2022
Posts:
24
EE: 100% (2)
TX, USA
Posted: 3/16/2023 9:16:20 PM EDT
| Just a few weeks till mandatory. I ordered early February and no joy yet. Anybody got em yet? |
|
Ordered mine on 2/7, arrived on 2/28. Much better rollout than ATF did on the previous revision where they automatically sent every dealer a pack of 50....and then didn't fulfill orders for 6-8 weeks. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By Vague: From a customer standpoint are there any big changes? Just more questions for customers to skip.  Changes: Que 10. adds "Reside in City Limits?" Ex. Your address may be 14150 Wunderlich Rd, Houston, TX............but thats not within the city limits of Houston. The reason they now ask is due to new federal laws that require notifiying your local LE when a buyer is denied by FBI NICS. With this address it would be either Harris Co. Sheriff or Harris Co. Constable Office, not Houston PD. Que. 21 b. Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s), or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m), or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception? c. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense? |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
| Thanks guys. I live in a township outside city limits and I only buy my guns as a hedge against a zombie alien horde, so I guess it's business as usual for me. I appreciate it. |
"Preferred pronouns in social media bios are like bright, vibrant colors on snakes and frogs. Its nature's way of telling you to stay the fuck away". -Grottski, '22
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Just more questions for customers to skip. Changes: Que 10. adds "Reside in City Limits?" Ex. Your address may be 14150 Wunderlich Rd, Houston, TX............but thats not within the city limits of Houston. The reason they now ask is due to new federal laws that require notifiying your local LE when a buyer is denied by FBI NICS. With this address it would be either Harris Co. Sheriff or Harris Co. Constable Office, not Houston PD. Que. 21 b. Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s), or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m), or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception? c. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense? Had multiple customers yesterday say “WTF is this run-on sentence bullshit??” to 21b and 21c, including an FBI agent … One even asked “does this mean if I become a felon, I’ll have to sell my guns? So I answer “yes”?” 
|
|
Originally Posted By Bhart89: If you answer yes to the last sentence would you get denied? I understand that a person who answers “yes” to question 21.n.1. is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm, unless the person answers “yes” to question 21.n.2. and provides the documentation required in 26.d |
|
Originally Posted By RenegadeX: I understand that a person who answers “yes” to question 21.n.1. is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm, unless the person answers “yes” to question 21.n.2. and provides the documentation required in 26.d Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Originally Posted By Bhart89: If you answer yes to the last sentence would you get denied? I understand that a person who answers “yes” to question 21.n.1. is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm, unless the person answers “yes” to question 21.n.2. and provides the documentation required in 26.d Why the heck did they put this disclaimer at the end of 21.n.2, instead of right at the front? “U.S. citizens/nationals leave 21.n.l and 21.n.2 blank” Someone reads 21.n.1 and answers it “No” because they are not an Alien but a U.S. citizen, proceeds to reading question 21.n.2 and then they see the “U.S. citizens/nationals leave 21.n.l and 21.n.2 blank” instruction? On the previous 4473 it was only question 21.1.2 that would be left blank by US citizens, 21.1.1 would be answered “no” |
|
Originally Posted By Scollins: Why the heck did they put this disclaimer at the end of 21.n.2, instead of right at the front? “U.S. citizens/nationals leave 21.n.l and 21.n.2 blank” Someone reads 21.n.1 and answers it “No” because they are not an Alien but a U.S. citizen, proceeds to reading question 21.n.2 and then they see the “U.S. citizens/nationals leave 21.n.l and 21.n.2 blank” instruction? On the previous 4473 it was only question 21.1.2 that would be left blank by US citizens, 21.1.1 would be answered “no” Because ATF has complete and total dumbasses in the Division of Form Design, Implementation and Obfuscation. I would love to go to Congress and have a Congressman read, complete and sign the Form 4473 and then sit there while I hand it back because he left stuff unanswered or answered questions he wasn't supposed to answer. The best part of the new 4473 is the page and a half of blank space. A space where they easily could have put the continuation sheet that is now a separate form. Or they could have gone back to the five lines for firearms from the pre2020 version. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By Burnsome-: Ordered a week or so ago. When are they mandatory? TIA This Saturday, April 1st, 2023 If you don't get them by then: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: This Saturday, April 1st, 2023 If you don't get them by then: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download Thank you |
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Just more questions for customers to skip. Changes: Que 10. adds "Reside in City Limits?" Ex. Your address may be 14150 Wunderlich Rd, Houston, TX............but thats not within the city limits of Houston. The reason they now ask is due to new federal laws that require notifiying your local LE when a buyer is denied by FBI NICS. With this address it would be either Harris Co. Sheriff or Harris Co. Constable Office, not Houston PD. Que. 21 b. Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s), or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m), or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception? c. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense? This also helps in states where the agency of where you resides has to do another background check for pistol or "assault weapons," like WA does... until the state system goes online. |
Don't let the join date fool you... here since '97
Joined:
May 2014
Posts:
6532
EE: 100% (24)
VA, USA
|
Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: 21.b? It's literally asking if you intend to sell or give a firearm to a prohibited person. Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: Originally Posted By SpazzyMcgee123: I've been using the new forms digitally for a month or so. Have fun with 21.b everyone. Yup. We’ve had a ton of customers only read the first half and instinctively answer it the same as they did for 21.a. Others are getting lost in the wording about halfway through and have to ask for clarification. Maybe a 30% failure rate so far, and it’s an honest (albeit dumb) mistake every time. |
|
I just came home with a new FN last week. That new question about selling tripped me up pretty good. I had to reread the fuckin thing at least 10 times before I could discern what it was they were asking. I get the gist of it, but fuckin a...why word it like that? Why not just say in plain fuckin English what they want to know? Jeez. |
"The simple believe anything, but the prudent give thought to their steps"
|
Originally Posted By pestilence12: I just came home with a new FN last week. That new question about selling tripped me up pretty good. I had to reread the fuckin thing at least 10 times before I could discern what it was they were asking. I get the gist of it, but fuckin a...why word it like that? Why not just say in plain fuckin English what they want to know? Jeez. The wording of all the questions is based on the law and/or CFR, not plain English so people who aren't attorneys can understand it without reading it ten times. |
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.org/
|
Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: 21.b? It's literally asking if you intend to sell or give a firearm to a prohibited person. If only were worded like that. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: If only were worded like that. Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: 21.b? It's literally asking if you intend to sell or give a firearm to a prohibited person. If only were worded like that. For real! Half of the people do not comprehend the "legal-speak" used on forms like this. |
Don't let the join date fool you... here since '97
Joined:
May 2014
Posts:
6588
EE: 100% (24)
VA, USA
|
Originally Posted By itchytrigger: I'm getting tired of printing these out. |
www.HansohnBrothers.com
|
Originally Posted By RenegadeX: FYI There is a new 4473 coming late summer/fall to correct errors in the current one. Do you know if the upcoming "new 4473" rearranges the 21.b question that currently refers to questions that the buyers has not yet read ? We have an area meeting with our IOI coming up in later August, originally scheduled for July. Maybe this new form is the reason for the date change.  |
Steve Rose
"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks"
Thomas Jefferson - 1785
"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks"
Thomas Jefferson - 1785
|
Originally Posted By GunCat: Do you know if the upcoming "new 4473" rearranges the 21.b question that currently refers to questions that the buyers has not yet read ? We have an area meeting with our IOI coming up in later August, originally scheduled for July. Maybe this new form is the reason for the date change. IOI did not know what the changes were beyond what I wrote. |
|
There is a new one due out in the next couple months according to my IOI. They are re-arranging some of the new questions so that it's less confusing. Current version has questions on the front that reference questions on the back that you haven't read yet. So to truly understand it, you have to flip pages back and forth. Fastbound takes care of all of that though |
|
The new questions are silly. I get stuck with transfers solely because they answered the question wrong. As the FFL, i reread the question like 4 times before it made sense to me. But that is one tactic in the democracy handbook of denying rights is to put the questions at a reading level higher than most of the average adults. |
|
Not an FFL. I will say I got tripped up by those 2 stupid questions on a buy a month ago. I literally stood there dumbfounded for 2-3 minutes, re-reading the form. Ended up having to ask for help, which wasn’t that helpful. Freakin’ crap like that thrown in just to make life more difficult for all involved. Glad they’re changing it… |
|
Revised 4473 posted to ATF website. Hard copies not available until November 1st, 2023, mandatory for use starting February 2024. It's the same shitshow, with the order changed up on the questions. Old 21.b moved to 21.n (so at least you read all the questions before answering now) 21.n.1 and 21.n.2 are now 21.m.1 and 21.m.2 and the instructions for 21.m.1 and 21.m.2 are changed, again. Old form said to leave both blank if a US Citizen/Green Card holder. Now it says to answer "No" to 21.m.1 and leave 21.m.2 blank if a US Citizen/Green Card holder. There is no mention of the instructions near the questions like the old form, but buried in the "Notices, Instructions and Definitions" section. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/updated-atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-august-2023-revisions https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download (I didn't hotlink to ATF on purpose, though Safari automatically makes them links on my end.) |
Armory Sponsor