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Posted: 9/12/2023 1:41:50 AM EDT
Recently Liberty Safe gave the FBI a combination to a safe with a Manual Dial lock. Liberty had the combination on file. They also store electronic lock super codes and Master reset codes. All the dial combinations, super codes, and master reset codes are unique. They do not set anything in "Batches". In most cases you can have your dial combination changed. You can also get your super code from the factory and change it, master reset codes get a little trickier, but its possible to change some. Storing combinations, super codes, and master reset codes was an industry wide practice (at least until until recently  ). Liberty has a process now to have your combination/code removed from their database. this is it: https://www.libertysafe.com/pages/combination-removalIf anyone needs a tech to help them swap a lock, set a combo, etc..... you can search for one here. Set the distance to "any". http://www.savta.org/savta_tech.php I am a safe and vault technician for a living. If you folks have questions about a lock, a safe, a certain manufacturers practices, etc... Feel free to ask here. Lets keep it technical though. |
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| I do not know, but I have someone I can ask tomorrow. I would say it is not likely. They pretty much do commercial safes, and most commercial safes leave the factory with a default code of 50 on dials, and 123456 0r 502550 on commercial electronic locks. The installer or a tech is supposed to set a code onsite at the time of delivery/install. |
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: I do not know, but I have someone I can ask tomorrow. I would say it is not likely. They pretty much do commercial safes, and most commercial safes leave the factory with a default code of 50 on dials, and 123456 0r 502550 on commercial electronic locks. The installer or a tech is supposed to set a code onsite at the time of delivery/install. That's good to know. I worked with a guy on a job who did time for cracking safes. I think he was a former tech iirc. |
By RebFootCav: It could be raining pussy, and I'd go outside and catch a 5 gallon bucket of dicks.
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I have an older AMSEC safe, a big one, and the hinges are wearing. The door is too low and hits the bottom when closing. These hinges have no adjustment screw and they are welded to the body and to the door.
Is there a quick fix, or do I need to pull the door and add some spacers to the pin? I have a question about a replacement electronic lock for this one. It has a spring loaded relocker built into the casting of the lock. I haven't been able to find a replacement, but I know it is old and want a fresh one to install. Thx. |
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Originally Posted By wildearp: I have an older AMSEC safe, a big one, and the hinges are wearing. The door is too low and hits the bottom when closing. These hinges have no adjustment screw and they are welded to the body and to the door. Is there a quick fix, or do I need to pull the door and add some spacers to the pin? I have a question about a replacement electronic lock for this one. It has a spring loaded relocker built into the casting of the lock. I haven't been able to find a replacement, but I know it is old and want a fresh one to install. Thx. They just fixed a safe at work that had the same problem. Its an ancient Mosler that weighs about 3 tons... We had to push the door almost all the way closed, then lift the door handle while some one shoved really hard against it to get it closed. The repair guys took the door off, pulled the guts out of the hinges (3), replaced the pins and what looked like a copper or bronze sleeve looking thing in the hinge, put it back on and rebalanced it the safe. The door moves like its on wet glass now, you can open and close it with a finger tip. Prob took them an hour to do. |
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In response to the Diebold Question: I talked to a guy that used to work for Cook Security. He said they typically had a standardized reset cod eon the electronic locks, and most of the techs that worked with Diebold in a commercial setting would know how to reset the lock back to the factory numbers (which would give them access). He was not aware of any standard operating procedures for storing dial combination numbers. |
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Originally Posted By high_order1: two questions: 1 - are the 'codes' hard coded into the system? 2 - where is a leaked recent copy of all the drill points? please and thank you kindly in advance and things  1- are we referring to the "system" for storing codes at the factory, or the "system" inside the lock body? 2. With Jimmy Hoffa's body. |
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Originally Posted By wildearp: I have an older AMSEC safe, a big one, and the hinges are wearing. The door is too low and hits the bottom when closing. These hinges have no adjustment screw and they are welded to the body and to the door. Is there a quick fix, or do I need to pull the door and add some spacers to the pin? I have a question about a replacement electronic lock for this one. It has a spring loaded relocker built into the casting of the lock. I haven't been able to find a replacement, but I know it is old and want a fresh one to install. Thx. You probably have to install bushings between the hinges to shim the door. Got a picture of the relocker you are referring to? |
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I recently purchased a home with a floor safe that has a S&G dial with the traditional 4 number combination. However, the number we were given at escrow close is not the correct combo. The safe was unlocked at 95 when I checked it, so I left the lid open before I locked it to check and now the supposed combo does not work. Do I remove the back cover of the lock and line up the discs like I read on S&G's web site? I also don't have the special key that will be needed to set a new combo if the above works. I just want to make sure I'm pursuing the correct method for doing this as the safe is in a very uncomfortable location. |
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Originally Posted By kalalp: I recently purchased a home with a floor safe that has a S&G dial with the traditional 4 number combination. However, the number we were given at escrow close is not the correct combo. The safe was unlocked at 95 when I checked it, so I left the lid open before I locked it to check and now the supposed combo does not work. Do I remove the back cover of the lock and line up the discs like I read on S&G's web site? I also don't have the special key that will be needed to set a new combo if the above works. I just want to make sure I'm pursuing the correct method for doing this as the safe is in a very uncomfortable location. The most common traditional UL listed dial locks are a 3 number combination= 4 Left 3 Right 2 Left turn to the right until the lock stops (which is usually 84-96 range). Some floor safes actually require stopping at zero and pushing in, then finishing rotating right. I would leave the service work up to an experienced tech. There are a few things that need to be checked out before hand, and the lock may even need to be serviced (especially if it hasn't been used in years). There are a few things that need to be checked after the combo is set as well. I can honestly say it took me a solid 6 months to become proficient at setting combinations and servicing locks. If you have a tech do the work, they are also on the hook if you have an immediate problem with the lock afterwards. |
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Originally Posted By Wangstang: Any experience with Big Red mechanical locks? What's your thoughts if so? I think they leave a little to be desired in the longevity and reliability department. S&G has the market cornered with the 6730, the 6741, and the 6630 dial boxes. |
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: I think they leave a little to be desired in the longevity and reliability department. S&G has the market cornered with the 6730, the 6741, and the 6630 dial boxes. Originally Posted By Snopczynski: Originally Posted By Wangstang: Any experience with Big Red mechanical locks? What's your thoughts if so? I think they leave a little to be desired in the longevity and reliability department. S&G has the market cornered with the 6730, the 6741, and the 6630 dial boxes. For a residential safe that would be accessed a once a week for the next 40 years, which dial box would you go with? Which big red units have you seen fail or require more service than you would expect and what type of applications were they being used in when they failed? |
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: 1- are we referring to the "system" for storing codes at the factory, or the "system" inside the lock body? 2. With Jimmy Hoffa's body. The real issue is, if there is an algo hard coded inside the lock body, a couple of purchased bodies off ebay (I'm sure I have one or two in my toy box) and doing a chip off might reveal a serious, serious vulnerability. There is a guy online who is asking for certain series locks, I am betting money he thinks the same thing, too. 2 - guess you just use the templates like most lower tier guys do. I've got a copy of an older LSS+,but I want the .gov version of the electronic one. I am sure it's floating around out there; I just haven't had the interest to search for it. |
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: In response to the Diebold Question: I talked to a guy that used to work for Cook Security. He said they typically had a standardized reset cod eon the electronic locks, and most of the techs that worked with Diebold in a commercial setting would know how to reset the lock back to the factory numbers (which would give them access). He was not aware of any standard operating procedures for storing dial combination numbers. Thank you OP. That answers an old question. |
By RebFootCav: It could be raining pussy, and I'd go outside and catch a 5 gallon bucket of dicks.
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: What's your take on the integrated digital+dial locks (the rotary serves as a backup in the event that the digital fails)? I even remember 1 that actually could be powered up just by spinning the dial a few times, then entering the combination. There are not any reliable locks I am aware of that have a backup rotary generator that takes over if a battery fails. The XO series lock with just a dial generator that power the luck are a pain in the neck, and amazingly expensive. |
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Originally Posted By Wangstang: For a residential safe that would be accessed a once a week for the next 40 years, which dial box would you go with? Which big red units have you seen fail or require more service than you would expect and what type of applications were they being used in when they failed? I personally have a 6730 S&G on my safe. That is what I would recommend in a standard residential application. It would be the big red CDL 3-wheel Group 2 that I have seen a ton of issues with. I actually replaced another one on an 8 year old Amsec BF7240 yesterday. I run into them mostly on Amsec Residential gun safes, and a few spotted commercial safe applications. Its almost like Amsec knows it sucks though, they put the S&G 6630 on most of their TL rated safes. I was actually taught how to manipulate on a BigRed CDL 3-wheel Group 2 dial lock. |
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Originally Posted By high_order1: Inside the lock mech, of course. I can't touch what they have at the factory, but if I can find a data line I can dump the prom. Sounds easier than drilling and spiking, anyway. The real issue is, if there is an algo hard coded inside the lock body, a couple of purchased bodies off ebay (I'm sure I have one or two in my toy box) and doing a chip off might reveal a serious, serious vulnerability. There is a guy online who is asking for certain series locks, I am betting money he thinks the same thing, too. 2 - guess you just use the templates like most lower tier guys do. I've got a copy of an older LSS+,but I want the .gov version of the electronic one. I am sure it's floating around out there; I just haven't had the interest to search for it. Some locks with eeproms can be reset, programmed, etc.... via an eeprom module. A lot of them require access to the circuit board in the lock or a secondary connector on the body (which you would not be able to access if the safe was locked close). I have a Little Black Box that works onn locked out safes. It makes you wait 15min, and it leaves a footprint in the lock, so it can be detected easily that it was used. It only works on certain age locks, and it only works on about 50% of the locks in the industry. If there was an algorithm to be exploited in them, I think my buddy Lance Mayhew Jr. would have exploited it by now. He is the electronic lock master, and has a giant book on all the industry safe locks. I have pioneered some drill points on a few of the current locks out there. I was one of the first guys to spin an S&G titan plastic block with an end mill, and I use a different drill point on the S&G 6120 than anyone else I know. I am actually spiking an Amsec ESL15 on a Major TL15 tomorrow. So that will be opened via the spindle/cable hole with a 9v. I have several drill rigs, one of them uses templates, but my Vac rig, adjustable rig, and free hand rig all require marking a spot on the door before drilling it. What is an LSS+? I am not sure what you are referring to with the .gov version of the electronic one? |
| The X10 generator series of locks are not reliable, in my experience. My building at work has one for access and we're on our 4th one in about 6 years. Uncle Sam picks up the bill for the new ones, it's his building. The ones on the safes have been fine, it may be the exposure to the weather for the one on the outside door? |
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: It would be the big red CDL 3-wheel Group 2 that I have seen a ton of issues with. I actually replaced another one on an 8 year old Amsec BF7240 yesterday. What issues did you see? LSS is Locks, Safes and Security from Marc Tobias. It exists in three version. One for the mortals, one for the locksmiths and one for the government. There is a digital supplement available which contains e.g. videos. |
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Originally Posted By MartinHewitt: What issues did you see? LSS is Locks, Safes and Security from Marc Tobias. It exists in three version. One for the mortals, one for the locksmiths and one for the government. There is a digital supplement available which contains e.g. videos. The most common is a drifted combination on one of the wheel packs. I have seen it off as far as 5 numbers. |
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Originally Posted By MartinHewitt: What issues did you see? LSS is Locks, Safes and Security from Marc Tobias. It exists in three version. One for the mortals, one for the locksmiths and one for the government. There is a digital supplement available which contains e.g. videos. there are several e-databases out there, I'd like to see what they have in them. |
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: You probably have to install bushings between the hinges to shim the door. Got a picture of the relocker you are referring to? They are really cheap hinges and the pins are welded to the door half. the hinges are also solidly welded to the door, or it would be easy to just move the door up. The e-lock also seems a bit cheap, so if something better is available......   |
Preferred pronoun: MARINE
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: The most common is a drifted combination on one of the wheel packs. I have seen it off as far as 5 numbers.
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Preferred pronoun: MARINE
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Originally Posted By Bandit432: The X10 generator series of locks are not reliable, in my experience. My building at work has one for access and we're on our 4th one in about 6 years. Uncle Sam picks up the bill for the new ones, it's his building. The ones on the safes have been fine, it may be the exposure to the weather for the one on the outside door? I've worked for the .gov for 25 years. Everything at work from rooms, to safes, to file cabinets, uses some version of the Kaba Mas generator locks. Most are the X-9's, some are the newer X-10's. Most of the ones I use on a frequent basis have been in constant use for over 10 years. In 25 years of using them, I have yet to see one fail. But I will admit, none that I have used are directly exposed to the elements. I dont think they are rated for wet locations. That said, they also cost as several times what a standard S&G mechanical or an AMSEC ESL lock costs. And the factory combo on those is 50-25-50... you would be amazed how many of them in secure .gov facilities still use the factory code... |
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Originally Posted By kalalp: I recently purchased a home with a floor safe that has a S&G dial with the traditional 4 number combination. However, the number we were given at escrow close is not the correct combo. The safe was unlocked at 95 when I checked it, so I left the lid open before I locked it to check and now the supposed combo does not work. Do I remove the back cover of the lock and line up the discs like I read on S&G's web site? I also don't have the special key that will be needed to set a new combo if the above works. I just want to make sure I'm pursuing the correct method for doing this as the safe is in a very uncomfortable location. Taking the back cover off and watching the dials is easy. My dad bought a safe at an auction when I was younger (10ish years old). It was open but nobody knew the combo. Within 15 minutes I handed him the combo, I just pulled the back cover and watched carefully. As far as setting your own combos that's a little more difficult but usually not so difficult that an above average homeowner can't do it. Change keys are available online. I have multiple safes with S&G 6730 locks (TL-15, TL-30, UL document safe, etc). I bought a change key for $10 (ebay IIRC) and had them all changed within about an hour. Just follow online directions for your lock. ETA, as OP says, it may need serviced. A simple clean and lube job is DIY territory, just be sure you use proper lube and don't disassemble anything unless you're sure it's meant to be disassembled and that bouncy things won't launch parts across the room. |
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Originally Posted By Oldgold: What about the electronic locks with the key backup? I see them advertised on some safes. I have no one seen answering your question, so I'll do this. I assume you do not mean the Amazon Basic shoe boxes, but locks looking similar to La Gard and S&G safe locks. I have seen in the US only electronic locks with integrated key backup that come from China. I do not know if every lock was made by the same company, but they are all like this one: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Electronic-Security-lock-Electronic-Safe-ATM_1600726166238.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_title.17db5bcfKtYVlD It is often sold under the brand Ambition and Omega. This lock was designed to look like a safe lock for a user. They did not put any effort in it to make it secure. E.g. I did not see anything going from the keypad to the safe lock which be related in any way to the PIN. So it might be possible to open a lock with a second keypad and default PIN. I could not test this as I had only one lock with keypad. On the other hand the reliability looks quite good due to the key backup. I know in Europe three electronic safe locks with key backup. The most common is the dormakaba Mauer B30 / B90. Standard mounting format, but a bit longer and requires a second hole for the cable. Then comes the Wittkopp two lock system. Two safe locks in line, which requires a special mounting option in the safe. And the last I know is from the Russian company Promet the PS-650. This is the newest of the three. I haven't seen it yet in a safe. It is thicker than a usual electronic lock, but it's mounting is most similar to the normal locks with a round pin pad and everything going through the spindle/key hole. But the key won't fit a spindle-only hole. Because UL is combination lock only with their high-security safe standards I doubt they could be UL listed. And that's why there is only that Chinese lock in the US. |
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Originally Posted By Oldgold: What about the electronic locks with the key backup? I see them advertised on some safes. All the locks with key backups have them because of how unreliable they are. I have seen 1 safe with a key bypass mechanism, that had a UL listed lock. However the safe was not UL listed, which is usually an indication that the lock mechanism would not pass the UL testing. |
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Originally Posted By wildearp: @Snopczynski They are really cheap hinges and the pins are welded to the door half. the hinges are also solidly welded to the door, or it would be easy to just move the door up. The e-lock also seems a bit cheap, so if something better is available...... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/41996/AMSEC_1_JPG-2953858.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/41996/AMSEC_2_JPG-2953859.jpg That relocker is designed to be re-used. It does not need to be replaced. |
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Originally Posted By NYresq1: I've worked for the .gov for 25 years. Everything at work from rooms, to safes, to file cabinets, uses some version of the Kaba Mas generator locks. Most are the X-9's, some are the newer X-10's. Most of the ones I use on a frequent basis have been in constant use for over 10 years. In 25 years of using them, I have yet to see one fail. But I will admit, none that I have used are directly exposed to the elements. I dont think they are rated for wet locations. That said, they also cost as several times what a standard S&G mechanical or an AMSEC ESL lock costs. And the factory combo on those is 50-25-50... you would be amazed how many of them in secure .gov facilities still use the factory code... We opened an X-09 up that had failed last month at a software company. |
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Originally Posted By Snopczynski: There are not any reliable locks I am aware of that have a backup rotary generator that takes over if a battery fails. The XO series lock with just a dial generator that power the luck are a pain in the neck, and amazingly expensive. Originally Posted By Snopczynski: Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: What's your take on the integrated digital+dial locks (the rotary serves as a backup in the event that the digital fails)? I even remember 1 that actually could be powered up just by spinning the dial a few times, then entering the combination. There are not any reliable locks I am aware of that have a backup rotary generator that takes over if a battery fails. The XO series lock with just a dial generator that power the luck are a pain in the neck, and amazingly expensive. Opinion? https://securamsys.com/safelocks/xtreme |
Texas -
Bigger than France.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
--RWR, 1964
Bigger than France.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
--RWR, 1964
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wonder what 0 day happened that caused them to remove the dial light? |
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Originally Posted By high_order1: wonder what 0 day happened that caused them to remove the dial light? I can't imagine a dial light would be an avenue to open the safe without the combo. |
Texas -
Bigger than France.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
--RWR, 1964
Bigger than France.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
--RWR, 1964
|
Originally Posted By high_order1: wonder what 0 day happened that caused them to remove the dial light? We have had 7 out of the 10 locks we installed fail. After we had 4 fail, the factory rep was convinced we were installing them wrong. He cam out, taught a 2 day class and we installed 2 locks on safes in our showroom with him supervising. One of the locks on the showroom safes stopped working about 3 weeks later. In my opinion there are not any dual entry type locks on the market that are reliable. Half the time that light had battery connection issues and wouldn't work. |
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