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Posted: 5/7/2023 7:29:57 AM EDT
Long story short, I helped broker an MG-34 in Oregon. Paperwork was moving at a snails pace until last December when ATF said its a pre-sample.  Talked to the original owner and its a 1968 Amnesty bring back and he shows the papers for it. Guy is 93 years old and a Korean war veteran and retired Oregon National Guard. Had to send his Amnesty papers to the ATF this January 2023 and finally last week, they accepted and updated the records to reflect that its a transferable. Better question I want to know is that if the ATF can be fuck ups on even papered guns, how accurate IS the registry in reality?  I'm not gonna give them any fucken praise. The client is going to keep it for now. We busted it out for the range and with the tripod setup and his unopened Romanian 8mm ammo, it ran fine. Attached File Attached File |
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I know of them f*cking up an Amnesty registered transferable M3 Grease Gun (said it was pre-sample), a pre-sample Uzi (said it was post sample), and a transferable MP-40 (said it was a post sample). Going through the process of providing the paperwork THAT THEY SHOULD ALREADY HAVE of previous transfers of all thee firearms. Keep your paperwork people and be nice and pass it on to the next owner when your turn as the caretaker of these pieces of history has ended and it is time for a new caretaker. Total clown shoes over there. As a side note: nobody I know that files Form-3 and Form-4 via snail mail is having these problems. Only people that are doing e-File, and all the issues are popping up with the Form-3 transfers. |
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Yep, guy is 93 years old. He was a good friend of former governor Vic Atiyeh . Attached File Attached File Attached File We didn't do the Eform. We opted for mail in slow mail paper process. New buyer opted out after finding out it was a pre sample. We gave his money back which was half down. After we sent a notarized copy of the amnesty paperwork and then also, he opted to do a correction on the paperwork. I don't think this guy is gonna kick the bucket soon. He has a lot of energy, he works out and walks quite a lot and still operates his printing business part time. |
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I've had a mac10 since 2000 on a form 4. Decided I'd take it with me to florida so submitted travel papers 5320.20. Get paperwork back declined gun not registered in my name.  Redid paperwork sent in with copy of form 4 and they authorized, but to late for trip So I'd say their paper work is screwed up and most likely a lot of guns lost because of their mess.  Defund ATF |
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Quoted: I've had a mac10 since 2000 on a form 4. Decided I'd take it with me to florida so submitted travel papers 5320.20. Get paperwork back declined gun not registered in my name. Redid paperwork sent in with copy of form 4 and they authorized, but to late for tripSo I'd say their paper work is screwed up and most likely a lot of guns lost because of their mess. Defund ATF I wasn't expecting this to happen. His papers are pretty bulletproof and we all assumed it was fine and correct. He went to mg shoots in other states before and his permission slips was always approved. They need to do another amnesty and open up the registry. It's a shit show. I'm also dealing with a faked transfer Fleming sear which was stolen from the OG owner. That's another story. |
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Yeah, watched something similar happen with a pile of Benelli M1 SBSes from a PD. They were all transferable. Some months later, ATF contacts the SOT and informs him that they’re all post-68 imports. All transfers which hadn’t already been done, even if approved but the customer hasn’t picked them up, are nullified. The customers who already picked them up have the option of undoing the transfer or can keep them with all future transfers having to follow post-68 import rules. The SOT lost a lot of money on that one. |
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Quoted: Yeah, watched something similar happen with a pile of Benelli M1 SBSes from a PD. They were all transferable. Some months later, ATF contacts the SOT and informs him that they're all post-68 imports. All transfers which hadn't already been done, even if approved but the customer hasn't picked them up, are nullified. The customers who already picked them up have the option of undoing the transfer or can keep them with all future transfers having to follow post-68 import rules. The SOT lost a lot of money on that one. Quoted: Yeah, watched something similar happen with a pile of Benelli M1 SBSes from a PD. They were all transferable. Some months later, ATF contacts the SOT and informs him that they're all post-68 imports. All transfers which hadn't already been done, even if approved but the customer hasn't picked them up, are nullified. The customers who already picked them up have the option of undoing the transfer or can keep them with all future transfers having to follow post-68 import rules. The SOT lost a lot of money on that one. Transfer them without barrels as Title I firearms and send a letter to ATF stating they're permanently rendered Title I. Then the new owner(s) can register it as a SBS again and re-attach the barrel. Post-68 restriction is now gone. Quoted: I'm also dealing with a faked transfer Fleming sear which was stolen from the OG owner. That's another story. |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/313126/20141221_110406_jpg-2809675.JPG We didn't do the Eform. We opted for mail in slow mail paper process. [...] After we sent a notarized copy of the amnesty paperwork and then also, he opted to do a correction on the paperwork. Man that Lafette brought a tear. With the MGZ40 and battery box! Tripod alone is $8-$15K What was the correction in the paperwork that needed to be done? It is THEIR mistake. |
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Quoted: Man that Lafette brought a tear. With the MGZ40 and battery box! Tripod alone is $8-$15K What was the correction in the paperwork that needed to be done? It is THEIR mistake. Quoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/313126/20141221_110406_jpg-2809675.JPG We didn't do the Eform. We opted for mail in slow mail paper process. [...] After we sent a notarized copy of the amnesty paperwork and then also, he opted to do a correction on the paperwork. Man that Lafette brought a tear. With the MGZ40 and battery box! Tripod alone is $8-$15K What was the correction in the paperwork that needed to be done? It is THEIR mistake. My feeling is that they just want people to just ROLLOVER and give up on a fight. I don't think the registry is very accurate for them to just make up fucken shit along the way and just say " Oh well, this is a pre-sample MG-34, you need to turn it in. How the ACTUAL FUCK does an NFA owner figure that out. So if there are only less than 200k transferables in the registry( I find that to be highly suspect and there is more), how and where did it fuck up that they said..... This isn't a transferable. The numbers have been the same. The information has always been the same so what changed? Is it the fire from the 70s? They honestly don't have a registry and it is just made up bullshit? The lawyer was saying "hey its a great day, we saved a historic firearm from the clutches of the AFT gang" I'm like If the registry is 100 percent accurate, we wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. 
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Totally agree. The Registry is a mess, totally inaccurate. I'd be willing to bet if 1000 people submitted Form-4s for shit that didn't exist, 10% would get approved. If 1000 people submitted Form-4s for stuff that does exist, 10% would get denied. Every time I come across a transferable whose last transfer was prior to the late-1970s, I know there will be a challenge. You're right, I think they are just trying to frustrate people into giving up legitimate NFA firearms. My advice to everyone with NFA items: hold on to all paperwork. Ask the seller for a copy of their Form-4. Ask the transferring dealer for a copy of the Form-3. Do a FOIA if you have time. It feels like 'guilty until proven innocent', doesn't it? |
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Quoted: Yeah, watched something similar happen with a pile of Benelli M1 SBSes from a PD. They were all transferable. Some months later, ATF contacts the SOT and informs him that they’re all post-68 imports. All transfers which hadn’t already been done, even if approved but the customer hasn’t picked them up, are nullified. The customers who already picked them up have the option of undoing the transfer or can keep them with all future transfers having to follow post-68 import rules. The SOT lost a lot of money on that one. @Prebans Just realizing I could be in a similar position….never even crossed my mind. Do you have more details? I am seeing various sources say that a lot of Benelli SBS were imported as title 1 guns, and barrels shortened or swapped in the USA via Form 2’s by Benelli. (Most of the ones I have are HK marked, a few are not). Did not see anything on the Form 3 about them only being samples. Just trying to figure out if I need to separate the barrels and sell the receivers as title 1 firearms, and the buyers can do a Form 1 if they want to, or if some or all of them are transferable as they are. Afraid if I ask ATF they will literally take a wild guess at this point. Kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other, but hate breaking up OEM shotguns if I don’t have to. So if you have more details or info on how that played out, would appreciate it… |
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Quoted: I wasn't expecting this to happen. His papers are pretty bulletproof and we all assumed it was fine and correct. He went to mg shoots in other states before and his permission slips was always approved. They need to do another amnesty and open up the registry. It's a shit show. I'm also dealing with a faked transfer Fleming sear which was stolen from the OG owner. That's another story. @Jozsi You have to tell that story. Can’t leave us hanging…. |
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I don't think that Laffette is $8k+.. but it will definitely be expensive. I would LOVE to get one for my MG-34.. Sadly it is a preMay, but it is beautiful. See if the ex-governor wants to sell some 8mm ammo and send him my way. I'm always up for buying quality surplus! |
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Quoted: My feeling is that they just want people to just ROLLOVER and give up on a fight. I don't think the registry is very accurate for them to just make up fucken shit along the way and just say " Oh well, this is a pre-sample MG-34, you need to turn it in. How the ACTUAL FUCK does an NFA owner figure that out. So if there are only less than 200k transferables in the registry( I find that to be highly suspect and there is more), how and where did it fuck up that they said..... This isn't a transferable. The numbers have been the same. The information has always been the same so what changed? Is it the fire from the 70s? They honestly don't have a registry and it is just made up bullshit? The lawyer was saying "hey its a great day, we saved a historic firearm from the clutches of the AFT gang" I'm like If the registry is 100 percent accurate, we wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. What has changed is you have tools like this in charge of the ATF doing the bidding of a corrupt government.  Matt Gaetz Excoriates ATF Director Steven Dettelbach Over 'Terrible Abuse Of Power' |
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Quoted: @Jozsi You have to tell that story. Can’t leave us hanging…. Quoted: Quoted: I wasn't expecting this to happen. His papers are pretty bulletproof and we all assumed it was fine and correct. He went to mg shoots in other states before and his permission slips was always approved. They need to do another amnesty and open up the registry. It's a shit show. I'm also dealing with a faked transfer Fleming sear which was stolen from the OG owner. That's another story. @Jozsi You have to tell that story. Can’t leave us hanging….  This kind of stolen? |
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Quoted: @Jozsi You have to tell that story. Can’t leave us hanging…. Quoted: Quoted: I wasn't expecting this to happen. His papers are pretty bulletproof and we all assumed it was fine and correct. He went to mg shoots in other states before and his permission slips was always approved. They need to do another amnesty and open up the registry. It's a shit show. I'm also dealing with a faked transfer Fleming sear which was stolen from the OG owner. That's another story. @Jozsi You have to tell that story. Can’t leave us hanging…. TLDR.. Be careful of your friends and who they are. A so called scum of a cesspool took advantage of a client and did a transfer behind his back on his sear. It got approved and so called friend took off to another state. This was 20 years ago. Ex friend died and we found the sear in his name. Wife is cooperating. Sear is coming back the slow way via a transfer from wife estate to dealer in other state and dealer to me soon afterwards. We all found out two years ago when we went to fire the clients hk91 and it didn't work in FA. Normal trigger pack is in it. Long story short. Be careful of everything and everyone. 20 years is a long time to report it stolen and its a civil matter now. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wasn't expecting this to happen. His papers are pretty bulletproof and we all assumed it was fine and correct. He went to mg shoots in other states before and his permission slips was always approved. They need to do another amnesty and open up the registry. It's a shit show. I'm also dealing with a faked transfer Fleming sear which was stolen from the OG owner. That's another story. @Jozsi You have to tell that story. Can’t leave us hanging…. https://photos.smugmug.com/Shooting/Organized-Gatherings/Oregon-ARFcom-shoot-07-1/i-svk4x4V/4/bf83afde/L/ARFcom%20shoot%20'07%20522_edited-1-L.jpg This kind of stolen? That guy rots in jail for 40 years for attempted murder. GOOGLE IT.. Carlos Roa in Oregon. Guy shot a sheriffs deputy in the balls. I can't make that shit up. My uncle ended up getting all of the shit Roa stole including over 80k rounds of ammo in storage and several pre samples and post samples and transferable. |
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Quoted: It's often spoken of how screwed up ATF's database is. Neat gun. There is video of a past ATF bigwig at some sort of meeting telling his fellow ATF agents that although we (the ATF) testifies in court that the registry is 100 percent accurate, they know that isnt true at all. "Always think forfeiture" isn't just some words on an ATF motivation gift. |
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I have an old Machine Gun News article talking about the ATF confiscating a widows MP40 up in Alaska that was papered properly. This was the mid 90s and it stated that they lost in court but the kicker was they DESTROYED the MP40 and couldn't find it anywhere. They ended up finding another MP40 that was in better condition, adding it to the registry and the widows lawyer picked it up. SHE HAD THE PAPERWORK but they claimed when the dealer in Alaska did the transfer, they couldn't find it in the system. They worked on confiscating it. TLDR. MP40 bring back was papered properly, ATF seized it and their Alaska field office destroyed accidently. Widow sued and won in court. ATF got another MP40 for her. |
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Quoted: @Prebans Just realizing I could be in a similar position….never even crossed my mind. Do you have more details? I am seeing various sources say that a lot of Benelli SBS were imported as title 1 guns, and barrels shortened or swapped in the USA via Form 2’s by Benelli. (Most of the ones I have are HK marked, a few are not). Did not see anything on the Form 3 about them only being samples. Just trying to figure out if I need to separate the barrels and sell the receivers as title 1 firearms, and the buyers can do a Form 1 if they want to, or if some or all of them are transferable as they are. Afraid if I ask ATF they will literally take a wild guess at this point. Kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other, but hate breaking up OEM shotguns if I don’t have to. So if you have more details or info on how that played out, would appreciate it… @tac556 Happy to help! These guns were all HK-imported and are HK-marked from the days before Benelli had a US manufacturing presence. They were all brought in as 14” guns, meaning that they’re legally post-68 import samples. But there are also Title 1 Benelli shotguns out there which are HK-marked, too. After Benelli established a US presence, it’s my understanding that they first imported them as 18” guns with the front sight mounted maybe 4.5” from the muzzle. Therefore, the guns were Title I legal but were set to be cut to 14” domestically. I suspect now they’re either making the barrels domestically or sending in 18” barrels to be cut down stateside and they just mount the sights post-cut here. Identifying these post-68 samples is all but impossible without involving ATF. You could try asking HK to research their records, but this is a rare instance that I think working with ATF would actually be easier.  It’s become a real DADT situation. It’ll probably stay that way because SBSes don’t transfer around very much, so they’re less likely to be caught. |
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Quoted: My feeling is that they just want people to just ROLLOVER and give up on a fight. I don't think the registry is very accurate for them to just make up fucken shit along the way and just say " Oh well, this is a pre-sample MG-34, you need to turn it in. How the ACTUAL FUCK does an NFA owner figure that out. So if there are only less than 200k transferables in the registry( I find that to be highly suspect and there is more), how and where did it fuck up that they said..... This isn't a transferable. The numbers have been the same. The information has always been the same so what changed? Is it the fire from the 70s? They honestly don't have a registry and it is just made up bullshit? The lawyer was saying "hey its a great day, we saved a historic firearm from the clutches of the AFT gang" I'm like If the registry is 100 percent accurate, we wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. I bought a premay 1919 from morphy’s last year and when they did the transfer ATF said it was a post sample. Now I wonder if ATF screwed up again. I just bought a premay Thompson that was listed in the seller’s eforms as a postie, so he has to submit a paper form 3. On another note, a AR15A2, a original MP43, and a M60 were seized and are destined for the shredder ): https://imgur.com/a/ny6Gg4q |
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Quoted: I bought a premay 1919 from morphy’s last year and when they did the transfer ATF said it was a post sample. Now I wonder if ATF screwed up again. I just bought a premay Thompson that was listed in the seller’s eforms as a postie, so he has to submit a paper form 3. On another note, a AR15A2, a original MP43, and a M60 were seized and are destined for the shredder ): https://imgur.com/a/ny6Gg4q Why were they seized? This provision is total bullshit. Transferable MGs going to the shredder is unacceptable. 26 U.S. Code § 5872 - Forfeitures (a) Laws applicable Any firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection (b)) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies. (b) Disposal In the case of the forfeiture of any firearm by reason of a violation of this chapter, no notice of public sale shall be required; no such firearm shall be sold at public sale; if such firearm is forfeited for a violation of this chapter and there is no remission or mitigation of forfeiture thereof, it shall be delivered by the Secretary to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such firearm destroyed or may sell it to any State, or possession, or political subdivision thereof, or at the request of the Secretary, may authorize its retention for official use of the Treasury Department, or may transfer it without charge to any executive department or independent establishment of the Government for use by it. |
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Quoted: I bought a premay 1919 from morphy’s last year and when they did the transfer ATF said it was a post sample. Now I wonder if ATF screwed up again. I just bought a premay Thompson that was listed in the seller’s eforms as a postie, so he has to submit a paper form 3. On another note, a AR15A2, a original MP43, and a M60 were seized and are destined for the shredder ): https://imgur.com/a/ny6Gg4q Absolutely fucking sickening |
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I am willing to bet based on the forfeiture notice these transferable machineguns were forfeited to the government due to a death/ estate issue. No offense to the female membership here, but the odds that "Susan" was the original owner of an M60 (plus an MP40 and M16) is probably close to zero. Again, speculation on my part but there are a couple ways this could have happened. Her husband/brother/etc. who originally purchased these guns died and the guns were never dealt with properly and were physically transferred to Susan but now can not be legally transferred or possessed. 1. Its very possible that they were technically owned by a legal entity like a Corp or LLC and either the original owner and/or Susan didn't keep the legal entity in good standing with the State of Incorporation. I heard of a transferable Thompson that went to the shredder last year due to this issue. Owner died, heirs got the physical gun but it was "owned" by a corporation that had essentially been dissolved by the State because annual paperwork and/or fees had not been filed in a decade or more. As a result there was no Corp, so no legal owner, so nobody could legally sign the transfer paperwork on behalf of the corp to get the gun out. The Thompson effectively "died" when the Corp was inadvertently allowed to die. In the case of the Thompson the heirs tried to go back to the State and get the Corp back alive but too much time had passed to fix so it had to be surrendered to the ATF. 2. If it was a Trust the original owner died and the original Trust paperwork was lost. I have a friend in this situation who I have told needs to execute a transfer of the NFA firearms out of his now "lost" Trust before he dies. He got a copy of the Form 4 from the ATF but they do not have a copy of the Trust and the attorney who created it is also deceased. Right now he as the original transferee who signed the Form 4 on behalf of the Trust as the Grantor could probably still submit a Form 4 to transfer the guns out to another Trust or himself as an individual. However, if he dies without the Trust paperwork proving who is the successor trustee and/or beneficiary, there is going to be nobody to legally sign a Form 4 on behalf of the Trust or take possession. If the ATF gets a Trust transfer request and the responsible party signing as the transferor on the Form 4 transfer application is not a known legal entity responsible party to the ATF for that Trust and there is no Trust paperwork to show who is a successor trustee/beneficiary for the Trust, than there is nobody who can legally transfer the guns out of the Trust nor who can legally take possession of the firearms on behalf of the Trust. Again in this case the Trust effectively "died" because the paperwork was lost and if the only known responsible party (Grantor) known to the ATF at the time of the original transfer then dies the gun also effectively dies as well. I suspect we will see a lot more NFA firearms be forfeited in the coming years due to the cottage industry that has sprung up over the past decade where everybody is now "legal expert" on Trust law and many folks also collect Trusts like one would collect baseball cards via a proliferation of "single shot" legal entities which makes keeping track of paperwork even that much more difficult. It certainly doesn't help that the government agency in charge of all of this, has a leadership staffed primarily with people who hate guns and want to seem the shredded whenever possible so is decidedly unhelpful. I have actually personally witnessed this legal entity paperwork challenge first hand recently with my in-laws who got all fancy with Trusts, LLPs, LLCs, 501(c)(3)s etc. got in way over their heads when they were competent and are now both effectively incapacitated and in nursing homes. It has been a nightmare to deal with as a lot of the original legal entity paperwork is long since lost and some paperwork for Trusts and LLPs seems unrecoverable as nothing was filed with the Texas SOS in those cases. Most of the attorneys who set this stuff up are also now retired or dead. While we have power of attorney over them as individuals we have some legal entity assets that are effectively stuck as we don't have any way to show that we are legally now responsible due to lost paperwork and are having to get new attorneys involved to try and fix/recover the situation. If there were NFA firearms involved in this situation where say I opened a storage locker and found NFA firearms, I can say they would definitely be at risk for seizure right now as neither of my in-laws would be legally competent to have possession and depending upon the ownership structure even with an individual level POA my wife and I might not be able to take physically possession without the legal entity paperwork showing who is subsequently responsible. |
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Quoted: That guy rots in jail for 40 years for attempted murder. GOOGLE IT.. Carlos Roa in Oregon. Guy shot a sheriffs deputy in the balls. I can't make that shit up. My uncle ended up getting all of the shit Roa stole including over 80k rounds of ammo in storage and several pre samples and post samples and transferable. Hmm. Didn’t know who that guy was, but I kind of recall the shooting incident. I could see how that sear situation could have happened. My UZI was purchased from PAWS by a guy who never once fired it, PAWS did the bare minimum to make it F/A prior to the ‘86 deadline, and he never once fired it. About 30 years later I ended up with it, it didn’t really work well, had to swap out the selector bar and open up the slot for the sear to SMG specs. So I guess if you never shoot it, you might not know it doesn’t have the right stuff. Still- awful ballsy and obvious to do an improper transfer. But yeah after that many years it is civil. And the postings about the trusts are making me want to make sure all my documents are copied. No F/A stuff on mine, just SBR’s and cans, but still. Thankfully just a single trust. And Prebans- thanks for the info. |
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My 1919 I bought from a friend and previous dealer and manufacturer didn’t exist in the ATF database. He had to send them a copy of the original form so they could update their records. My North Korean M49 I bought from RIA was papered as a PPSh41 and country of origin as Russia and had a copy of the corrections letter they submitted to the ATF to fix it. |
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Quoted: My feeling is that they just want people to just ROLLOVER and give up on a fight. I don't think the registry is very accurate for them to just make up fucken shit along the way and just say " Oh well, this is a pre-sample MG-34, you need to turn it in. How the ACTUAL FUCK does an NFA owner figure that out. So if there are only less than 200k transferables in the registry( I find that to be highly suspect and there is more), how and where did it fuck up that they said..... This isn't a transferable. The numbers have been the same. The information has always been the same so what changed? Is it the fire from the 70s? They honestly don't have a registry and it is just made up bullshit? The lawyer was saying "hey its a great day, we saved a historic firearm from the clutches of the AFT gang" I'm like If the registry is 100 percent accurate, we wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. This is probably old news here but a lawyer several years ago who has a large library of firearms case precedent actually found court and congressional documents of an ATF agent mistakenly on the record saying the registry was actually inaccurate and that later Congressional testimony(I think at this point the late 90s) it was revealed that contract employees MAY have destroyed NFTR records in the late 80s pertaining to DeWaTs or Amnesty guns |
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Quoted: Dealing with a transfer now where the ATF screwed up the serial number on the transfer to the guy in 1984. ATF says the serial number does not exist in the registry even though a copy of that form 4 was provided. I recommend you switch your methodology to performing 2 separate actions:
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