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Posted: 1/23/2007 9:13:22 PM EDT
I'm buying one soon. What's your experience with yours? Good reliable gun?
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 9:15:35 PM EDT
[#1]
mine goes bang everytime..
Just keep a good buffer in it and you will be good to go..
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 9:20:50 PM EDT
[#2]
hello. mine has had litterally thousands of rounds through it! runs all day without any problems. if the gun your looking at hasnt been converted to sten mags, make sure you get it converted. absolutely the best money you can spend on it. i have well over 100 mags for mine, and i can think of only 2 mags that ever gave me problems.  you will eventually wear out the sear and the sear trip, so it wont fire semi-auto. who cares! you dont need semi on a mac-11.  you will want to get extra cocking knobs because they like to break. i finally made one out of solid steel, and havent had any problems with it.  make sure you get a can for it also.    kirk
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 9:25:54 PM EDT
[#3]

Originally Posted By kirkinwisc:
make sure you get a can for it also.    kirk


Ditto. I have an M10/45, and am very happy with the GemTech Viper. They make a model for 9mm also. Nice thing about the Viper is it has a locking collar so it doesn't accidentally come unscrewed.
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 9:29:04 PM EDT
[#4]

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By kirkinwisc:
make sure you get a can for it also.    kirk


Ditto. I have an M10/45, and am very happy with the GemTech Viper. They make a model for 9mm also. Nice thing about the Viper is it has a locking collar so it doesn't accidentally come unscrewed.



Those big ass threads on the bbl, can you get an adapter so you can use the same can on a 9mm pistol?
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 10:31:31 PM EDT
[#5]
hello. yes, mark tross makes an asapter for it. www.trosusa.com.  
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 11:29:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 12:49:30 AM EDT
[#7]

Originally Posted By tony_k:
I like M11's -- they are a hoot to shoot, and the cheapest way to full-auto. But the QC of factory parts and components is miles below that of an Uzi or M16. I swear the Cobray parts musta been pounded outa old nails and rusty rails by trolls living under bridges. I hope your new toy is reliable; if not, just buy quality aftermarket upgrades, and don't look back.



Are you refering to small upgraded internals and FCG parts, or add ons like the Lage/Stoney Creek uppers?

Can you point another soon to be M11 owner in the direction of quality aftermarket upgrades?  
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 8:16:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 9:25:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: anr6t] [#9]
Tony - thanks for a comprehensive, well written response.  Couple of questions, inserted into quotes from you:


Originally Posted By tony_k:
You can tell when yours was made by the serial number -- the first two numbers are the year of production, so the following applies to "86-" SN M11's:


The one I have on the way is an 85-something-I-cant-recall .  While I realise that you've stated its important to check for the following problems regardless of they year, does the fact that it wasn't a "rush" gun mean that they are SIGNIFICANTLY less likely?

Out of curiousity, is there any way to date the gun by the rest of the SN?


Originally Posted By tony_k:
--First, check the welds on the rear of your receiver, where the flat is folded up and welded on the sides. A significant number (maybe 5-10%) of "rush" guns had poor welds. Check used guns for cracks, and keep an eye on NIB examples when you first shoot them. Cracks are easy to fix if noticed asap; if ignored, the rear can bend or even let go. Usually if the first 500 rounds are fine, your welds will hold forever. (Just never, ever fire an M11 with an age-deteriorated buffer, or no buffer at all.)


Why never fire it with a buffer - the receiver will bend?  I bought a used gun - is/was it a common practice to fire them without buffers?  Should I be concerned about abuse from the previous owner?


Originally Posted By tony_k:
--<snip> soft bolts and sears <snip>

The problem is that a lot of those 1986-rush soft-metal bolts are still in inventory today, so a factory replacement bolt purchased today may go bad just as fast. I finally took all my "rounded" bolts to my machining genius, who rewelded them, recut the notches, and once fixed they have never worn again. I can't recall what metal he used, offhand, but if someone needs to know I'll ask him.

Sears are the same -- soft metal that rounds off, allowing runaways. I've got a whole bag of worn-out examples of 'em. Some of the improved aftermarket ones are supposed to be better, but I don't have enough experience to recommend anyone. IMHO, it'd be worth having a good welder redo these as well.


Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the registered part is the receiver?  So if one is not friends with a welder genius type character, they could just purchase a new bolt/sear and drop it in?  Any need for some type of headspacing?


Originally Posted By tony_k:
--Keep an eye on misc pins and springs. Fer instance, the retaining pin that holds in the stock catch likes to break, which will allow your stock to slide out and fall off the gun. It won't happen while you are shooting -- the recoil keeps it in -- but it gets embarrassing to have your $3k toy fall apart when you are showing it to friends. Some of the aftermarket stocks do not use the factory catch, so I vote for those as a better alternative.


I started another thread about replacing the factory stock - so far the choices I've seen have been the Lage fixed/sidefolder, the mini Uzi sidefolder conversion, and the Stoney Creek sidefolder.  I also understand there is an Ares underfolder conversion out there, but havent been able to find an image of that.

Can you chime in about any experiences you may have had with these?  As you stated earlier, I've heard nothing but praise about ALL the Lage products, and I'm leaning that way, but in the other thread the Uzi conversion was highly recommended.

Once again, thanks for your time, and I hope captainpooby doesnt mind the thread hijack too much
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 10:13:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cmeyer001] [#10]
with good mags and my Lage upper, the gun runs great.



Buy spare buffers and change them when they get chewed up.

For mags I run zytels and Recon Ord mags. The Zytels work 100%. the Recon Ord
mags have need some tweaking, but once fixed up are in great shape.

The barrel is one of Richards factory 3 lug barrels, I understand that TROS does the machining. This was an option on his latest run of uppers.
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 10:45:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: tony_k] [#11]
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 11:02:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: anr6t] [#12]


Originally Posted By tony_k:
I started another thread about replacing the factory stock - so far the choices I've seen have been the Lage fixed/sidefolder, the mini Uzi sidefolder conversion, and the Stoney Creek sidefolder.  I also understand there is an Ares underfolder conversion out there, but havent been able to find an image of that. Can you chime in about any experiences you may have had with these? I bought an ARES underfolder when they came out in 2001 or so, and liked it a lot. I don't have any firsthand experience with the others, but again, I've been very impressed with Richard Lage's and Practical Sam's products. I haven't seen a Stoney Creek, so I can't speak to it.

As you stated earlier, I've heard nothing but praise about ALL the Lage products, and I'm leaning that way, but in the other thread the Uzi conversion was highly recommended. AFAIK, the Uzi conversion will not work on an M11/9 -- it is designed for M10's only. That's because Uzi mags are double-feed like the M10, but the M11 bolt is machined for use with single-feed mags like Zytels and STEn mags. I do not know of anyone who is re-machining M11 bolts for use with Uzi mags.




I was actually refering to the mini-uzi stock deal, not the magwell conversion.


Any images of your ARES underfolder?  Or where one could purchase one?  The ARES site isnt much help

Also, since all new old stock buffers would probably be deteriorated, where can one safely purchase a new NEW buffer without fear of ruining their new purchase
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 11:29:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cmeyer001] [#13]
Buffer Technologies sells buffers, these seem to be what came with the Max-11

Tactical Innovations sells buffers

Cobray sells buffers

I have ordered buffers from all. will probably use buffer tech exclusively once I shoot up all the ones I have.

When you order, buy a bunch, leave the extras in your shooting bag.
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 12:26:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 8:27:12 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm another satisfied M11/9 owner.  Another part to upgrade or keep spares on hand is the selector lever.
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 10:27:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/25/2007 9:33:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Spoke with my dealer regarding this question, and he couldnt answer it, so I'll post it here:  

Approximately how often does one need to change the buffer, in terms of round count, or elapsed time?

Tony, got any pictures of what a "bad", or worn out buffer looks like, so us newbies know what to watch out for?  Thanks again for all your help.
Link Posted: 1/25/2007 10:25:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 944turbo] [#18]

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By kirkinwisc:
make sure you get a can for it also.    kirk


Ditto. I have an M10/45, and am very happy with the GemTech Viper. They make a model for 9mm also. Nice thing about the Viper is it has a locking collar so it doesn't accidentally come unscrewed.


+1 for satisfied Viper owner.

ETA, Tony's post about M11 failures is the best I've ever read and mirrors my experiences with two '86 made M11s.
Link Posted: 1/25/2007 1:20:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 1/25/2007 2:16:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: anr6t] [#20]

Originally Posted By tony_k:

--There's also the MacJack, a honkin' big block of hard white plastic. On a suppressed M11/9 they can get your ROF up to 2,000 rpm, but I've never seen one deform or break -- the material is too hard to wear out.



Does ramping up the ROF so high cause any additional wear on the other parts?  That sounds fun...

PS:  Heres 1 vote for turning all this good info into a tacked MAC FAQ.  This is/was incredibly helpful.
Link Posted: 1/25/2007 4:02:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 1/25/2007 4:26:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: anr6t] [#22]

Originally Posted By tony_k:
Shooting suppressed with warm ammo, my MacJacked M11 would empty a 50-round Lanchester mag in 1.5 seconds.


So whats the deal with ammo selection for a M11 - I read on some board that its unwise to shoot +P, +P+ or that super +P+ IMI ammo as it will also unpleasantly wear on the parts.  

Will higher pressure ammo adversely wear on my mac?  

Also, I read that HP ammo essentially wont feed - that tend to be true?

Anyone make a beta(or larger then a Suomi drum) mag that'll fit a Mac yet, or is that a DIY project
Link Posted: 1/25/2007 11:54:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tony_k] [#23]
Link Posted: 1/26/2007 7:24:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StealthyBlagga] [#24]
In subgun configuration it's a very reliable platform. The weak link is the magazines; factory mags were "disposable" Zytels. Eventually the feed lips will wear down, or the rear seam will split. You can eliminate the wear problem with aftermarket metal feedlips, and the split can be repaired with epoxy, but the mags are fundamentally weak. I went over to converted Argie metal mags and haven't looked back.

As for the rest of the gun, it is cheaply made, with many internals being of low-grade materials (the safety slide comes to mind particularly). Heat treating on factory original parts was a big problem, particularly in '86 when they were making them as fast as they could. Some also had dodgy welds. However, none of this is a problem to fix - there are high-grade aftermarket internals, and several Macsmiths can weld up a gun in the unlikely event that this is necessary.

The biggest weakness is the high rate of fire. While 1300rpm sounds like fun, it is almost uncontrollable and wastes ammo at an alarming rate. I bought my M11/9 as a platform for a competition gun, and went into the deal with my eyes open to the above deficiencies. As soon as I got it, I replaced all the internals with quality aftermarket parts, and I installed a Lage MAX-11 slowfire upper and folding stock; now the ROF is a very manageable 650rpm. Here are some pics:





This gun is simply AWESOME, and I would (in a competitive situation) put it up against any other submachinegun in the world at any price - including the Uzi, the MP5 and the M16-9.

So despite my comments above, I highly encourage you to buy one of these now - they are the last good deal in the transferrable machinegun world, especially with the aftermarket parts available these days.
Link Posted: 1/26/2007 7:41:02 PM EDT
[#25]

Originally Posted By anr6t:

Originally Posted By tony_k:

--There's also the MacJack, a honkin' big block of hard white plastic. On a suppressed M11/9 they can get your ROF up to 2,000 rpm, but I've never seen one deform or break -- the material is too hard to wear out.



Does ramping up the ROF so high cause any additional wear on the other parts?  That sounds fun...

PS:  Heres 1 vote for turning all this good info into a tacked MAC FAQ.  This is/was incredibly helpful.


This video is 32 rounds being fired from an otherwise unmodified M11/9 with a Macjack.  Ammo is 147 gr subsonic.

The echo lasts longer than the actual shots.
Link Posted: 1/28/2007 7:29:31 PM EDT
[#26]
I have to agree with StealthyBlagga, I love my MAX-11.  Can't be beat for the price.  Here is my baby.



Jeff
Link Posted: 1/29/2007 11:42:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Thanks Tony K, this is just what I've been looking for.
Link Posted: 1/30/2007 9:09:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MyakkaVice] [#28]
Link Posted: 1/31/2007 4:09:36 PM EDT
[#29]
I took the plunge and bought one recently. Who is the best source for Sten mag conversion and how much should I expect to pay?
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 1:17:17 PM EDT
[#30]
For the price, this is the best sub-gun out there. As someone else pointed out, the mags are the issue after the MAX-11 kit. It you do the sten conversion, I would think you'd be reletively trouble free.

Link Posted: 2/2/2007 5:53:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Bruh44... whose flashhider do you have on there ?
Link Posted: 2/4/2007 9:30:11 PM EDT
[#32]
It's an Ameetec Arms, that I had Phil at PF Custom drill out so it would work for a 9mm.
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 10:10:05 AM EDT
[#33]
My first NFA was/is a M-11/9.  Mine didn't run so good at first, and I eventually figured out that it had trouble ejecting for a couple of reasons.  One was that over time, the stock ejector rod bends slightly, and also mushrooms at the tip.  If you clean up the tip and resquare it, that will get the empty pointing the right direction, out the ejection port.  Also straighten out the ejector rod, get it as straight as possible.  This isn't so hard cause the stock one is made of a soft metal.  The next thing I had to do was enlarge the front of the ejection port by about .030".  It was obvious that the empties had been hitting the inside of the port, cause they had actually bowed the upper receiver out just a little over time.  I just put the stripped upper in a mill and made one cut.  It went from running 95% to 100% with those 2 modifications.
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 10:13:11 AM EDT
[#34]
I posted two different posts cause they address different needs.

Now that I have my M-11/9 running 100%, it decided to give me different grief.  Now it is running away, and the bolt and sear appear to have worn.  Can someone post a pic or 2 showing a new, or near new, bolt and sear?  Specifically the areas where they contact?  I am thinking of having at least the bolt welded up and that area hardened, but I do not know how much mine has worn down.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 11:02:47 AM EDT
[#35]
2-08-07....APPROVED!

The wait for the forms to get back to my dealer is infinitely longer then the wait for the ATF to approve them.  


Pics coming!
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 11:37:25 AM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 11:38:18 AM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 12:03:03 PM EDT
[#38]

Originally Posted By mjm:
Can someone post a pic or 2 showing a new, or near new, bolt and sear?


Here is a close up of my M11/9 sear. This is an aftermarket part from WGA:





The factory original rounded off - didn't get bad enough to run away, but I changed it out just in case. I've been very happy with the WGA parts I bought, though some others have reported dimensional and hardness issues with these parts too. Welding and reprofiling would work, but if I were you I'd look at the "monster sear" from Stoney Creek.
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 12:12:29 PM EDT
[#39]
I think I remember hearing that the monster sear was full-auto only. I think it takes away the ability to go semi.
Link Posted: 2/12/2007 1:08:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Found some more pics here:  www.mac-11.net/

From the pics on the above site it appears my bolt may be ok.  Comparing my sear to the pics above it looks as if the sear is the culprit.  I'll check out the WGA sear.  Cobray FA sears are $40, thats not too bad, but I imagine it will wear out again.

Thanks guys for the help!

Link Posted: 2/13/2007 8:58:35 AM EDT
[#41]

Originally Posted By bruh44:
I think I remember hearing that the monster sear was full-auto only. I think it takes away the ability to go semi.


Correct - the current monster sear is designed specifically for the Stoney Creek Suomi upper (which is full-auto only). They are supposedly working on a select-fire version of the sear which will be available "soon".
Link Posted: 2/13/2007 9:42:04 AM EDT
[#42]
This site may help you out too: uzitalk/mac10
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 1:07:49 AM EDT
[#43]
So, despite the fact that this gun came to me without a functional buffer...



Link Posted: 3/10/2007 8:32:58 PM EDT
[#44]
I had no problems until 10k plus rounds!  I ordered a lage upper and it will be here next week.  It will be a new gun and does not look all jerry rigged up.  I use zytels and recons.  Zytels are great until they are not.  They will spread and ammo will pop out while cyling.  This can cause a double feed and a kaboom at 1200 RPM.  I have replace my sear and it is nearly due again.  My trigger spring is weak and I tweaked it, a new one is on order.
Link Posted: 5/18/2007 3:44:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Mine runs marginally with a macjack, just fine without it. My zytels are the problem, I believe. I'm trying to find better mags, or perhaps going to consider a sten conversion.
Link Posted: 5/18/2007 6:49:49 PM EDT
[#46]

Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Mine runs marginally with a macjack, just fine without it. My zytels are the problem, I believe. I'm trying to find better mags, or perhaps going to consider a sten conversion.


I was pretty close to getting the sten conversion myself until I posted on uzitalk, and got this back: uzitalk
Link Posted: 5/23/2007 4:02:59 AM EDT
[#47]
That thread didn't mention two of my major beefs with the sten mag conversion - the grip is enlarged (which is a big deal to me with my smaller hands, far less confortable) and - the OEM stock or anything used the full length rails, cannot be retracted with a magazine in place.  If your hands are normal to large and you don't use the cheesy OEM stock, neither will matter I suppose.
Link Posted: 5/25/2007 2:23:50 PM EDT
[#48]
I had a M11/9 cobray it was a DANGEROUS POS! Got it NIB for $600.00 shot it 6 times. Some times in would do a 3-5 round bust in semi, some times it would even run a whole mag in full auto and some times it even would go off all by its self! I let one other person who was very experinced shoot it once to try and figure out what was wrong with it, when I handed it to him "empty of course" I told him to hold it like a rattle snake because in my opinon it was just as dangerous. I replaced all of the internals and it then seemed ok but I still sold it to a dealer and was glad to be rid of in before someone got hurt of worse.....
Link Posted: 5/30/2007 11:57:01 PM EDT
[#49]

Originally Posted By M4-Daddy:
I had a M11/9 cobray it was a DANGEROUS POS! Got it NIB for $600.00 shot it 6 times. Some times in would do a 3-5 round bust in semi, some times it would even run a whole mag in full auto and some times it even would go off all by its self! I let one other person who was very experinced shoot it once to try and figure out what was wrong with it, when I handed it to him "empty of course" I told him to hold it like a rattle snake because in my opinon it was just as dangerous. I replaced all of the internals and it then seemed ok but I still sold it to a dealer and was glad to be rid of in before someone got hurt of worse.....


If you replaced the internals and still had the problem then it was most likely the bolt that was the problem. I've had mine for a month now and absolutely love it.!!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/2/2007 11:21:19 PM EDT
[#50]
I should have never clicked this....

Is there major quality difference between LAGE and Stony Creek. I'm kinda partial to LAGE as it stands now.
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