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Posted: 1/31/2025 4:34:18 PM EDT
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Was at the range today (Full-Auto Friday!!) and put on the bone-stock / OEM / factory upper. I haven't shot it in that configuration since getting the LAGE MAX11/15 (which ROCKS). Using the Shockwave mags, good ammo - every few rounds I'd get a jam, a few squibs, I'd clear it, drop the mag, reload, etc...bang a few more off, same thing...chocked it up to "maybe a bad firing pin" (I'd get a lot of this with the old plastic factory mags too). I noticed the charging knob felt a little hinky / not as smooth. OK, well, after three mags (2 - 30 and 1 - 50), enough of that! Time to switch over to the MAX11/15 upper, easy peasy. I'm ripping away and ALL IS GOOD, zero issues! I put everything away and go to discuss my issue with the on-site gunsmith, I describe the issue and pull out the upper receiver (it was a little dark in the range/bay so I didn't see this before) to show / examine...holy moly! The upper receiver has a slight buckle / deformation at the front of the charging knob slot!! We break it down and the charging knob nub breaks off...looks like one of the squibs had a "traffic jam" so to speak and caused a fair amount of force to cause the deformation! The firing pin looks good. The spring seems good, the smith thought maybe the extractor seemed a little stiff...that could be causing the issue? Anyway...just a boogered upper receiver (I'll try to post a pic later), could have been much worse! So - thoughts on root cause? I am trying to decide on replacing the OEM receiver (if I can find one at a reasonable price) and / or biting the bullet and going with another LAGE product - the VERSA-11 Upper Receiver w /Glock Mags. Thoughts? Worth it to even try to get the OEM functionality back to have "originalness" to it? I know, it's just an M11/9. But there is something about having a factory condition SMG along with all the other options. Thoughts on best place to get a good factory upper receiver? Appreciate the input! BTW - I shot an M240 today - that was AWESOME!! |
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I don't have any thoughts on the cause of your issues. The stock uppers are so fast it would be hard to identify anything as it happened anyway. Practical Solutions makes good stock style uppers if you are in need of a replacement. As for the Lage, I would absolutely get a VERSA upper. I'm on the list for the 12 for my M11A1. Looking forward to it. |
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I would get both a spare original config upper and another Lage - It seems as if it is nice to have the factory style option and far cheaper than Lage but not as nice as Lage. Squibbs are not fun. I had it happen once and luckily it was a crap round that didn't even have enough energy to work the bolt back. Unloaded the gun and checked with a rod - sure enough a slug was half way down the barrel. If another one would have followed would have been a bad day. Took it all apart, pounded the projectile out - BUT had I not checked and re-racked it and fired - could have ruined the upper or me. |
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Originally Posted By Landric: I don't have any thoughts on the cause of your issues. The stock uppers are so fast it would be hard to identify anything as it happened anyway. Practical Solutions makes good stock style uppers if you are in need of a replacement. As for the Lage, I would absolutely get a VERSA upper. I'm on the list for the 12 for my M11A1. Looking forward to it. Yeah, incredibly, crazy fast - I've shot it for so long that I'm pretty good at just getting 2-3 round bursts but still... Yes, have looked at Practical Solutions (just a few minutes ago, thank you!). Yes, just emailed Jackie to be added to the VERSA-11 list!! |
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Originally Posted By cherenkov: I would get both a spare original config upper and another Lage - It seems as if it is nice to have the factory style option and far cheaper than Lage but not as nice as Lage. Squibbs are not fun. I had it happen once and luckily it was a crap round that didn't even have enough energy to work the bolt back. Unloaded the gun and checked with a rod - sure enough a slug was half way down the barrel. If another one would have followed would have been a bad day. Took it all apart, pounded the projectile out - BUT had I not checked and re-racked it and fired - could have ruined the upper or me. WOW!!! Copy that!! I'm pretty good at making sure I see the round(s) fall before putting the mag in and proceeding, yeah, that would've been BAD!! I like your solution of getting both original upper and another Lage. Appreciate your input! |
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You weren't shooting pmc ammo were you? I had two instances of danger with pmc on my m11. Instance one was a squib that cleared. It bucked like a mule and blew smoke out of the magazine upper and everywhere The second was what we (arfcom experts) think was a round that was too far seated did the same thing. It kicked so hard for a 9mm never felt anything like it. Instantly knew something was wrong. I found the case and the head stamp was completely flattened and shaped to the bolt. Major overpressure.. FA is fun, but when shit goes sideways it happens faster than one can react to. Pmc did offer to replace all my ammo though, with more shitty ammo... Attached File ^one of the spent rounds from that lot |
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Originally Posted By ggllggll: Pmc did offer to replace all my ammo though, with more shitty ammo... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/10799/20240205_060737_jpg-3450766.JPG ^one of the spent rounds from that lot |
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Originally Posted By ggllggll: You weren't shooting pmc ammo were you? I had two instances of danger with pmc on my m11. Instance one was a squib that cleared. It bucked like a mule and blew smoke out of the magazine upper and everywhere The second was what we (arfcom experts) think was a round that was too far seated did the same thing. It kicked so hard for a 9mm never felt anything like it. Instantly knew something was wrong. I found the case and the head stamp was completely flattened and shaped to the bolt. Major overpressure.. FA is fun, but when shit goes sideways it happens faster than one can react to. Pmc did offer to replace all my ammo though, with more shitty ammo... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/10799/20240205_060737_jpg-3450766.JPG ^one of the spent rounds from that lot WHOA!! Crazy!! No, it was LAX Ammo 115 Gr FMJ. I’ve shot it with no issues prior (in this and in other normal pistol and PCC). |
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Posts:
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A couple thoughts. 1. Back in the day when there weren’t any aftermarket, side-charging uppers, it was not uncommon for the charging handle to break off. It was more common with the taller knobs like what you have, as they had more mass slinging back and forth at high rates of speed. The reduced section just can't handle the cyclic stresses indefinitely. More often, the knob would come off and hit the shooter in the forehead. Yours is odd in that it broke below the flange, still retaining the knob in the slot, but allowing it to wobble, leading to your boogered-up upper. 2. You can probably get your upper back in working order. It won't ever be pretty, but it wasn't all that attractive to begin with. Remove the barrel and use a square steel bar for a backer. Actually, your bolt will probably work. Just shim the bottom of the bolt so it fits tightly in the receiver channel. Then tap it flat with a hammer. Smooth out the channel with a file and then try a bolt with cocking knob by hand and check for binding. Worst case, the upper is still messed up. But i bet you can get it running. 3. When you say you are getting squibs, what exactly do you mean. Usually a squib is a round with a primer and no powder charge. The primer often has enough energy to push the bullet out of the case into the barrel. But not enough for the bullet to clear the barrel. The next round then fires into a plugged barrel. This will often bulge the barrel. Look down your barrel and you can often see a ring when this happens. Also, run your fingers along the barrel after you pull it out to fix the upper, and you can often feel the bulge, even if you can't see it. If so, that barrel is trash and you will want a new one. More often, when you get a squib, the bullet doesn't go into the barrel far enough to allow the next bullet to seat fully in the chamber. This stops the gun, but doesn't result in any damage. You just have to tap the bullet out with a rod. With an open-bolt subgun, the bullet stops the next cartridge, but the firing pin will still contact the primer, detonating the cartridge without the benefit of the chamber for support. Below is what that looked like from an Uzi. I was shooting suppressed, so it was pretty loud when all of the gas / noise came out the ejection port. The photo below wasn't from a squib. It happened when a piece of stepped brass failed, leaving a ring of brass in the front of the chamber. But a squib bullet would give the same result. 
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| The sturm board currently has some good deals on used Lage uppers, max 31, max 11s, max 11sk, to replace your original.. (not my ad, and I already have 2 of those 3). |
Ever see a lion after he eats a zebra? - MrClean4Hire (RIP Brother)
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
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Originally Posted By GarrettJ: A couple thoughts. 1. Back in the day when there weren’t any aftermarket, side-charging uppers, it was not uncommon for the charging handle to break off. It was more common with the taller knobs like what you have, as they had more mass slinging back and forth at high rates of speed. The reduced section just can't handle the cyclic stresses indefinitely. More often, the knob would come off and hit the shooter in the forehead. Yours is odd in that it broke below the flange, still retaining the knob in the slot, but allowing it to wobble, leading to your boogered-up upper. 2. You can probably get your upper back in working order. It won't ever be pretty, but it wasn't all that attractive to begin with. Remove the barrel and use a square steel bar for a backer. Actually, your bolt will probably work. Just shim the bottom of the bolt so it fits tightly in the receiver channel. Then tap it flat with a hammer. Smooth out the channel with a file and then try a bolt with cocking knob by hand and check for binding. Worst case, the upper is still messed up. But i bet you can get it running. 3. When you say you are getting squibs, what exactly do you mean. Usually a squib is a round with a primer and no powder charge. The primer often has enough energy to push the bullet out of the case into the barrel. But not enough for the bullet to clear the barrel. The next round then fires into a plugged barrel. This will often bulge the barrel. Look down your barrel and you can often see a ring when this happens. Also, run your fingers along the barrel after you pull it out to fix the upper, and you can often feel the bulge, even if you can't see it. If so, that barrel is trash and you will want a new one. More often, when you get a squib, the bullet doesn't go into the barrel far enough to allow the next bullet to seat fully in the chamber. This stops the gun, but doesn't result in any damage. You just have to tap the bullet out with a rod. With an open-bolt subgun, the bullet stops the next cartridge, but the firing pin will still contact the primer, detonating the cartridge without the benefit of the chamber for support. Below is what that looked like from an Uzi. I was shooting suppressed, so it was pretty loud when all of the gas / noise came out the ejection port. The photo below wasn't from a squib. It happened when a piece of stepped brass failed, leaving a ring of brass in the front of the chamber. But a squib bullet would give the same result. https://i.imgur.com/CcKktU8h.jpeg GarrettJ: I really appreciate the detailed reply! It makes sense regarding the taller / extra mass of the cocking knob. I might, just might try to repair the upper...the bolt looks like it is OK. I cleaned everything up later that night and checked it out, the barrel looks OK from what I can tell. I bagged it all up and put it in the safe, noodling on what to do. Taking a look at OEM uppers - just mainly to get original parts to (maybe?) keep some of the original value. I've since got on the list for the VERSA 11. Regarding the squib - or what I am apparently mislabeling as a squib - several of the misfires / incidents had a "traffic jam" / misfire of two bullets / cartridges, at least one (the tail / last one from what I recall) had a slight firing pin indention on the primer - apparently not enough to fire it off though. So that's why I thought that maybe it was a bad / worn firing pin. |
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Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: Appreciate the heads-up! I saw that you've got one for sale too! Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: Originally Posted By scottMO: The sturm board currently has some good deals on used Lage uppers, max 31, max 11s, max 11sk, to replace your original.. (not my ad, and I already have 2 of those 3). Appreciate the heads-up! I saw that you've got one for sale too! Where did you see an upper for sale that I had? I may have had one in the past, but don’t have one right now. Just wanted to confirm there wasn’t an ad floating around out there in my name? |
Ever see a lion after he eats a zebra? - MrClean4Hire (RIP Brother)
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
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Originally Posted By scottMO: Where did you see an upper for sale that I had? I may have had one in the past, but don’t have one right now. Just wanted to confirm there wasn’t an ad floating around out there in my name? Either Uzitalk or Sturm...you didn't have a pic posted, I swear it was you, the ad mentioned that pics were here on the EE listing as well. I don't recall if it was current, sorry!! Could've been an older ad. My mind is a blur with all of the listings I've seen lately! |
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Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: Either Uzitalk or Sturm...you didn't have a pic posted, I swear it was you, the ad mentioned that pics were here on the EE listing as well. I don't recall if it was current, sorry!! Could've been an older ad. My mind is a blur with all of the listings I've seen lately! Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: Originally Posted By scottMO: Where did you see an upper for sale that I had? I may have had one in the past, but don’t have one right now. Just wanted to confirm there wasn’t an ad floating around out there in my name? Either Uzitalk or Sturm...you didn't have a pic posted, I swear it was you, the ad mentioned that pics were here on the EE listing as well. I don't recall if it was current, sorry!! Could've been an older ad. My mind is a blur with all of the listings I've seen lately! I think that was for a CZ stock adapter that I am trying to put on the market. |
Ever see a lion after he eats a zebra? - MrClean4Hire (RIP Brother)
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
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Originally Posted By scottMO: Where did you see an upper for sale that I had? I may have had one in the past, but don’t have one right now. Just wanted to confirm there wasn’t an ad floating around out there in my name? @scottMO - found it! https://www.uzitalk.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-mac-11-9-mk2-upper.100721/ |
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Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: @scottMO - found it! https://www.uzitalk.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-mac-11-9-mk2-upper.100721/ Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: Originally Posted By scottMO: Where did you see an upper for sale that I had? I may have had one in the past, but don’t have one right now. Just wanted to confirm there wasn’t an ad floating around out there in my name? @scottMO - found it! https://www.uzitalk.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-mac-11-9-mk2-upper.100721/ Yep, you’re right, forgot all about that one, lol. |
Ever see a lion after he eats a zebra? - MrClean4Hire (RIP Brother)
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
| Original 11/9 bolts were all generally crap. I have an original that developed a crack at the breech face after what could have been more than a thousand rounds. The steel along the crack looks like crystals. I keep that hunk of..some kinda metal…around just in case I ever nee to return the gun to the configuration noted of the form 4. Otherwise, Lage everything! |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: Original 11/9 bolts were all generally crap. I have an original that developed a crack at the breech face after what could have been more than a thousand rounds. The steel along the crack looks like crystals. I keep that hunk of..some kinda metal…around just in case I ever nee to return the gun to the configuration noted of the form 4. Otherwise, Lage everything! The original cast bolts were iffy. I've never shot the cast bolt that came with my M11-380. And I've had generally but not 100% good luck with MAC parts from Lage, Practical Solutions, and FTF. Pretty much like buying AR parts from anybody these days, I guess. Hope for the best, but don't be surprised when you get a dud. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
| I think - and I NEED to check it VERY carefully - I think that my bolt is A-OK...still, I'd really rather start with a complete fresh upper - meaning all new internals, new upper, etc. I might try to tweak on the boogered one that I have. Really, the only reason I want an original upper is so I have the "original condition" on the Form 4 - like mentioned - guess it's more to "keep the value" of it? Honestly though, does that really do anything for it since it's crappy to start with? Honest opinions on that? I'm on the list for the Lage VERSA-11...and that's going to be EPIC! I am thinking about getting a MAX-11k or MAX-11 mk2 - but that may all be redundant anyway, with the VERSA-11....thoughts? |
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Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: I think - and I NEED to check it VERY carefully - I think that my bolt is A-OK...still, I'd really rather start with a complete fresh upper - meaning all new internals, new upper, etc. I might try to tweak on the bogered one that I have. Really, the only reason I want an original upper is so I have the "original condition" on the Form 4 - like mentioned - guess it's more to "keep the value" of it? Honestly though, does that really do anything for it since it's crappy to start with? Honest opinions on that? I'm on the list for the Lage VERSA-11...and that's going to be EPIC! I am thinking about getting a MAX-11k or MAX-11 mk2 - but that may all be redundant anyway, with the VERSA-11....thoughts? There’s a cheap max-11s on the sturm board. I’ve got an S and a mk2 but will prob end up shooting the versa 11 the just. Hoping to have mine soon. |
Ever see a lion after he eats a zebra? - MrClean4Hire (RIP Brother)
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
I hate waiting, but I really hate waiting to wait. - sgtgeo (having to wait on a Form 3 before sending a Form 4).
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I went another direction with mine. It has a CF-W bolt instead of another upper. It has made it into a very useable subgun for its size. I can effortlessly squeeze off doubles and it actually hits where you put the rudimentary sights. With the YHM R9 installed, it easily fits into a man purse. The only other changes it has are a few Lage internals, Lage grip and a Practical Solutions mini Uzi style side folding stock. It costs more than a Lage upper currently, but it does make for a very manageable shooter and in a tiny package. |
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I sold my SWD upper and that paid for 2/3's of my lage upper. I don't miss my OG upper and I don't care if it ruined the value for some Toy story fucken collector. |
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These two I must have.
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For liberty, I’ll sacrifice
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