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Low budget Annealing (Page 1 of 3)
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Posted: 1/24/2015 12:43:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3][Edited]
 Edit to fix pics and thread. 5/7/2018. LOW BUDGET ANNEALING: My equipment, torch: pan to drop hot cases in, battery powered screwdriver to rotate cases with hex to 1/4 or 3/8 drive adapters, deep sockets, 3/8 for 223/300 blk 1/2 for 308/30-30, and 750 degree Temiplaq. The Temiplaq is a must have. $24 [/url]https://www.midwayusa.com/product/988733/tempilaq-temperature-indicator-750-degree-2-oz Better price here; [/url]http://www.mcmaster.com/#temperature-indicating-liquid/=vlxyes Notice that no water is needed to cool off cases you never overheat the cases when you use Tempilaq. For annealing to work properly, cases should cool to room temperature by themselves. Takes about 5 minutes.  Place case into socket and rotate case with screwdriver (you could use a drill, use a slow speed). Notice the blue drop of Tempilaq on the inside of the case mouth. Case in socket has been annealed and notice that the Tempilaq disappears/melts. Place flame of torch on the neck of the rotating case. You can see the spot of Tempilaq as the case rotates. When the Tempilaq melts (disappears) drop case in the pan. Takes 4 to 5 seconds for this to happen.  Here are my results. Some 300 blk brass ready to run through the 300 blk sizing die to form the shoulder. If you try this without the Tempilaq, you will over heat the brass and get poor results. I sure did. I like to anneal before the shoulder is set when forming cases. 3/8 deep socket for 223, 300 blk 7/16 deep socket for 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39 1/2 deep socket for 308, 30-30, 30-06, ect 
300 blk cases after forming shoulder ready to trim to length. I trim to 1.360, then debur and chamfer. Notice crumpled case, that's what happens when you don't put a small bit of Imperial inside the case neck. Lube placed on Q tip, then inside case mouth. This thread is meant for the low budget folks, please keep this thread free from the commercial annealers and the home built annealers. Here is the DIY thread, https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/DIY_Annealing_Machine/42-434088/? If you want to post about these machines, start your own thread or post in the above thread. Thank you. Ask your basic low budget annealing questions in this thread. No need to discuss that was the method used before Tempilaq and rotating cases. If you wish to discuss it please start your own thread. It's a waste of time anyway. |
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Thanks for the timely post.
Getting the annealing process figured out is on my list for this week. Previous attempts either in in puddles of brass slag or brittle brass. 
Seeing as how I have 500 some odd pieces of my wife's 6.5x55 European, (as in correct case head) screwing them up is not an option. Now to find the bottle of Tempilaq I bought a while back. Semper Fi |
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Originally Posted By Grasslander: Is there any specific way to adjust the flame, or does it matter? After you get the hang of it, could you skip the Templaq on each case? Just adjust torch for the longest blue part of the flame. Put case neck about 1/8 to 1/4 inch into the blue part of flame. I place Tempilaq in every case, it makes it easier to get consistent results. I tried what you suggested and it doesn't get consistent results to suit me. I was overheating my cases before I started using Tempilaq. I figure if you are going to the trouble to anneal, do the best job you can. If your doing 50 cases, by the time you have Tempilaq on 20 cases, the first ones you did are dry, so there is no real drying time. When you start annealing start with the dry cases and the last ones will be dry by the time you get to them. I dip the built in the cap brush into the Tempilaq and it does 2 cases, dip and repeat. Good luck |
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Originally Posted By dave5339: Thanks for the timely post. Getting the annealing process figured out is on my list for this week. Previous attempts either in in puddles of brass slag or brittle brass. Seeing as how I have 500 some odd pieces of my wife's 6.5x55 European, (as in correct case head) screwing them up is not an option. Now to find the bottle of Tempilaq I bought a while back. Semper Fi I had promised another poster to get this thread up, finally got around to it. Practice on some 223 or other cases to get the process down, then do the 6.5x55. |
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This is by far the best way to anneal on the cheap with acceptable consistency.
Without the use of tempilaq your just guessing and setting yourself up for a catastrophic failure. The odds are against you. Being a new home annealer, couple of questions I can not find the answer to anywhere on the Internet. Short cases scare me. Understanding the acceptable agreed upon cartridge case annealing temp. Is 750 degrees F at the neck then drop. Once the heat source is removed molecular grain structure alteration stops and air cool is all that is needed. Cartridge brass is 70 percent copper and 30 percent zinc. It begins to anneal at 482 degrees F. Heat the head to that 482 degree temp. and it's junk. I use 450 degree F tempilaq on the case heads up the body to the shoulder on 300BLK and shorter cases. Here is the the $20,000 question. How long is the case head? The 450 degree tempilaq melts about halfway up from the base of the head. Anywhere above the web is safe? Side note: Please don't slap me, but the cheapest place for tempilaq is Mcmaster-carr at about $17USD. |
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I've used dryflash3's method several times, and I feel it works quite well. Importantly, it keeps my efforts consistent.
The deep socket does a couple of things. First, it lets you just drop the case out of it by just turning your wrist, which really makes the process pretty fast. Second, it only exposes a certain amount of the case to the flame, so you can't heat the wrong part of the case even accidentally. And last, it completely shields the rest of the case from getting very hot, so the case head never gets very warm. The socket WILL get really hot, but not anything like hot enough to hurt the brass...just your fingers! My biggest challenge with this method is to make the Tempilaq dots more consistent. Using the brush in the cap, I get anything from perfect dots to smears to globs. I probably need to work at consistency in dipping the brush and in how many cases I do per dip. But while the Tempilaq is kind of pricey, it doesn't take much to mark a bunch of cases, so experimenting isn't expensive. |
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Thanks for this post. Very informative...
Couple questions/comments. Any responses would be greatly appreciated. I have been wanting to do this for my Grendel cases. I bought Lapua cases and they haven't seen that many uses yet. 1. How often do you anneal your cases? (after how many firings). I just don't see the point for 223/300BO. I get a ton of firings for 223 even with hot loads and the brass is so cheap. For 300BO, I am running only subs. I have picked up fired bullets that almost appear to be reloadable. Only sign of firing is the striations from the rifling. 2. Do you think annealing helps with accuracy? If only helps with reloading count, then I will pass on 223 and 300BO Your comment about getting poor results without Tempilaq. 3. Perhaps you will answer this in #2, but are you talking accuracy, round count, or both? If round count, not sure how you would test that theory unless you actually kept at it for a while without Tempilaq.. Did you? Last question (s): 4. Basic battery powered drill too fast? Does the smaller electric screw driver go slower? And is slower better? |
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Originally Posted By Flashbang1: This is by far the best way to anneal on the cheap with acceptable consistency. Without the use of tempilaq your just guessing and setting yourself up for a catastrophic failure. The odds are against you. Being a new home annealer, couple of questions I can not find the answer to anywhere on the Internet. Short cases scare me. Understanding the acceptable agreed upon cartridge case annealing temp. Is 750 degrees F at the neck then drop. Once the heat source is removed molecular grain structure alteration stops and air cool is all that is needed. Cartridge brass is 70 percent copper and 30 percent zinc. It begins to anneal at 482 degrees F. Heat the head to that 482 degree temp. and it's junk. I use 450 degree F tempilaq on the case heads up the body to the shoulder on 300BLK and shorter cases. Here is the the $20,000 question. How long is the case head? To me the solid portion which end about, depends on case, 1/4 inch from the end of the case, then the case walls taper to the case shoulder/mouth. The 450 degree tempilaq melts about halfway up from the base of the head. I only use the 750 inside the case mouth. Anywhere above the web is safe? Not sure what you are asking here. Side note: Please don't slap me, but the cheapest place for tempilaq is Mcmaster-carr at about $17USD. Good to know. Added link to first post, thanks.  |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Originally Posted By Flashbang1:
Please don't slap me, but the cheapest place for tempilaq is Mcmaster-carr at about $17USD. Good to know. I priced around.. didn't check McMaster's website.. but most of the other sites wanted >$10 for shipping. I ordered a $4. free shipping item at Midway (and had to place another order anyway) so net was cheaper for me at Midway. And I get a cool dart tactical knife.. for what? I have no idea. Perhaps it will help in the Zombie apocalypse. It's too bad Brownells doesn't have the 750 version. They have 700deg. They are my go-to place. They are cheaper and now with the "Edge" program, I get free shipping. Wonder why they don't have 750? |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Originally Posted By Flashbang1:
This is by far the best way to anneal on the cheap with acceptable consistency. Without the use of tempilaq your just guessing and setting yourself up for a catastrophic failure. The odds are against you. Being a new home annealer, couple of questions I can not find the answer to anywhere on the Internet. Short cases scare me. Understanding the acceptable agreed upon cartridge case annealing temp. Is 750 degrees F at the neck then drop. Once the heat source is removed molecular grain structure alteration stops and air cool is all that is needed. Cartridge brass is 70 percent copper and 30 percent zinc. It begins to anneal at 482 degrees F. Heat the head to that 482 degree temp. and it's junk. I use 450 degree F tempilaq on the case heads up the body to the shoulder on 300BLK and shorter cases. Here is the the $20,000 question. How long is the case head? To me the solid portion which end about, depends on case, 1/4 inch from the end of the case, then the case walls taper to the case shoulder/mouth. The 450 degree tempilaq melts about halfway up from the base of the head. I only use the 750 inside the case mouth. Anywhere above the web is safe? Not sure what you are asking here. Side note: Please don't slap me, but the cheapest place for tempilaq is Mcmaster-carr at about $17USD. Good to know. Thanks for the info. What I mean is, as long as the temperature does not exceed 482 degrees F from above the web or thickest part of the head [some imaginary line] (assuming 1/4 of a inch up from the end of the case towards the mouth) to the base or end of the case. |
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Originally Posted By Vinny302:
On the subject of over annealing. Could you just heat the case and drop it in a pan of water to quick quench it. Would that not harden the brass again? V Only want to heat near mouth. You are softening, not hardening by annealing is my understanding. The rest of the case should remain hard. Prevents mouth from splitting. |
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Originally Posted By djryan13: Thanks for this post. Very informative... Couple questions/comments. Any responses would be greatly appreciated. I have been wanting to do this for my Grendel cases. I bought Lapua cases and they haven't seen that many uses yet. 1. How often do you anneal your cases? (after how many firings). Most folks suggest after 5 firings. Or when doing case forming. I shoot 7-30 Waters, which is a 30-30 case with a blown forward shoulder and necked to 7mm. For case forming all you have to do is lube 30-30 case and run it through 7-30 Waters sizing die. Then you load case with a starting load and fireform. This finishes blowing the shoulder forward. If you don't anneal, cracks can form in the new shoulder. Had this happen to me because case shoulders were hard. Ruined 100 cases this way once years ago.  Now I anneal before forming the shoulder and no problems during case forming. I just don't see the point for 223/300BO. I get a ton of firings for 223 even with hot loads and the brass is so cheap. For 300BO, I am running only subs. I have picked up fired bullets that almost appear to be reloadable. Only sign of firing is the striations from the rifling. Completely up to you. I have had better results with annealed 300 blk cases. I anneal the cut off case before forming the shoulder. 223, anneal for precession loads. Not needed for blasting loads. 2. Do you think annealing helps with accuracy? If only helps with reloading count, then I will pass on 223 and 300BO Answered above. Your comment about getting poor results without Tempilaq. 3. Perhaps you will answer this in #2, but are you talking accuracy, round count, or both? If round count, not sure how you would test that theory unless you actually kept at it for a while without Tempilaq.. Did you? Originally Posted By djryan13: Thanks for this post. Very informative... Couple questions/comments. Any responses would be greatly appreciated. I have been wanting to do this for my Grendel cases. I bought Lapua cases and they haven't seen that many uses yet. 1. How often do you anneal your cases? (after how many firings). Most folks suggest after 5 firings. Or when doing case forming. I shoot 7-30 Waters, which is a 30-30 case with a blown forward shoulder and necked to 7mm. For case forming all you have to do is lube 30-30 case and run it through 7-30 Waters sizing die. Then you load case with a starting load and fireform. This finishes blowing the shoulder forward. If you don't anneal, cracks can form in the new shoulder. Had this happen to me because case shoulders were hard. Ruined 100 cases this way once years ago. Now I anneal before forming the shoulder and no problems during case forming. I just don't see the point for 223/300BO. I get a ton of firings for 223 even with hot loads and the brass is so cheap. For 300BO, I am running only subs. I have picked up fired bullets that almost appear to be reloadable. Only sign of firing is the striations from the rifling. Completely up to you. I have had better results with annealed 300 blk cases. I anneal the cut off case before forming the shoulder. 223, anneal for precession loads. Not needed for blasting loads. 2. Do you think annealing helps with accuracy? If only helps with reloading count, then I will pass on 223 and 300BO Answered above. Your comment about getting poor results without Tempilaq. 3. Perhaps you will answer this in #2, but are you talking accuracy, round count, or both? If round count, not sure how you would test that theory unless you actually kept at it for a while without Tempilaq.. Did you? Over annealed cases can make the case head soft and cause a K boom when case head blows out because it was weakened. Case head needs to be hard, case mouth should be soft. Speaking in brass soft/hard terms. Study the pics, if the discoloration of the case extends down the case further than in the pic and the case body gets a silver color = over annealed. BTDT Last question (s): 4. Basic battery powered drill too fast? Does the smaller electric screw driver go slower? And is slower better? You need a slow speed so that you can see the blue dot of Tempilaq as the case is heated and rotated. High speed, can't see the blue dot of Tempilaq. Battery powered screwdriver has lots of torque (not needed for annealing) and a slow speed that is just right for annealing. Also a drill is much heavier and you will soon discover why I suggest a battery powered screwdriver when you arm starts aching. |
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Originally Posted By Vinny302: On the subject of over annealing. Could you just heat the case and drop it in a pan of water to quick quench it. Would that not harden the brass again? V That's the old school, you never know how it's going to turn out method. I tried several times over the years to make this work and saw no benefits. Take a once fired or loaded Mil 5.56/7.62x51 case, study the anneal on the case. That is the result you are looking for. Good luck duplicating that result without Tempilaq every time. That's what the Tempilaq does for you. Makes your results correct and repeatable. |
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I think you guys are misunderstanding my question. Say you have been annealing but you have over annealed some cases. Could you just reheat them red hot then quench them quickly. Would that quick quench return the hardness to the brass? This is just a question I have been thinking about, I am using Templaq and have been annealing properly.
V |
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Originally Posted By Vinny302:
I think you guys are misunderstanding my question. Say you have been annealing but you have over annealed some cases. Could you just reheat them red hot then quench them quickly. Would that quick quench return the hardness to the brass? This is just a question I have been thinking about, I am using Templaq and have been annealing properly. V From my research no. Once over annealed it's finished as a reloadable case. Quenching has zero effect on brass. Unlike steel heat treating/quenching/hardening have different properties. What does happen is you make the brass "dead soft" and there is no going back. Annealed soft can be work hardened back to a harder state for lack of a better term. |
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Originally Posted By Vinny302: I think you guys are misunderstanding my question. Say you have been annealing but you have over annealed some cases. Could you just reheat them red hot then quench them quickly. Would that quick quench return the hardness to the brass? This is just a question I have been thinking about, I am using Templaq and have been annealing properly. V What you made is scrap bucket fodder. Toss them. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3:
What you made is scrap bucket fodder. Toss them. Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Originally Posted By Vinny302:
I think you guys are misunderstanding my question. Say you have been annealing but you have over annealed some cases. Could you just reheat them red hot then quench them quickly. Would that quick quench return the hardness to the brass? This is just a question I have been thinking about, I am using Templaq and have been annealing properly. V What you made is scrap bucket fodder. Toss them. Brass ain't cheap.. any scrap value in brass? Worth keeping a bucket near your reloading bench for those cases that just don't work out.... |
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Originally Posted By djryan13:
1. How often do you anneal your cases? (after how many firings). I just don't see the point for 223/300BO. I get a ton of firings for 223 even with hot loads and the brass is so cheap. For 300BO, I am running only subs. I have picked up fired bullets that almost appear to be reloadable. Only sign of firing is the striations from the rifling. <snip> Last question (s): 4. Basic battery powered drill too fast? Does the smaller electric screw driver go slower? And is slower better? I have a CHEAP electric screwdriver with an un-loaded speed of 200 RPM. It works fine. You don't want the cases to spin out of the socket, but you don't want them to move too slowly in the flame, either. An electric drill can go a LOT faster than 200 RPM (800-2500 RPM depending on the brand and model), so as long as your'e keeping it slow enough to see the indicator material inside the case, it will work. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
So far, I've just annealed .223 cases to form them to 300 Blackout. Annealing helps the brass remain springy, so you retain (or regain) neck tension, and neck tension is critical to accuracy. There are a number of ways to measure neck tension, but the easiest way for me is a gauge from Ballistic Tools. You size the case and then gauge it; if the inside is still within tolerance, the tension will be good. If it isn't in tolerance, the brass isn't staying springy and you need to anneal the necks. And I HOPE you're not actually seeing marks on teh case from rifling! I have a CHEAP electric screwdriver with an un-loaded speed of 200 RPM. It works fine. You don't want the cases to spin out of the socket, but you don't want them to move too slowly in the flame, either. An electric drill can go a LOT faster than 200 RPM (800-2500 RPM depending on the brand and model), so as long as your'e keeping it slow enough to see the indicator material inside the case, it will work. Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By djryan13:
1. How often do you anneal your cases? (after how many firings). I just don't see the point for 223/300BO. I get a ton of firings for 223 even with hot loads and the brass is so cheap. For 300BO, I am running only subs. I have picked up fired bullets that almost appear to be reloadable. Only sign of firing is the striations from the rifling. <snip> Last question (s): 4. Basic battery powered drill too fast? Does the smaller electric screw driver go slower? And is slower better? I have a CHEAP electric screwdriver with an un-loaded speed of 200 RPM. It works fine. You don't want the cases to spin out of the socket, but you don't want them to move too slowly in the flame, either. An electric drill can go a LOT faster than 200 RPM (800-2500 RPM depending on the brand and model), so as long as your'e keeping it slow enough to see the indicator material inside the case, it will work. Thanks. I think you misunderstood one thing. The striations are on the bullet after firing from the rifling. The bullet has no deformity. We find them all the time. They must bounce off the wood backdrop at such a low velocity that there is no sign of bullet impact. Velocity out of muzzle is fine. |
| Dryflash, So when converting 223 to 300blk do you anneal the chopped 223 cases and then form them (and final trim)? I have over 1,000 rounds already cut ready to convert, I'm sure the softer annealed brass would be better to form. Is this your thinking? Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By jcwallace84:
Dryflash, So when converting 223 to 300blk do you anneal the chopped 223 cases and then form them (and final trim)? I have over 1,000 rounds already cut ready to convert, I'm sure the softer annealed brass would be better to form. Is this your thinking? Thanks! This is the way I convert to 300bo brass. Cut, anneal, form, trim. |
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Originally Posted By snoog37:
This is the way I convert to 300bo brass. Cut, anneal, form, trim. Originally Posted By snoog37:
Originally Posted By jcwallace84:
Dryflash, So when converting 223 to 300blk do you anneal the chopped 223 cases and then form them (and final trim)? I have over 1,000 rounds already cut ready to convert, I'm sure the softer annealed brass would be better to form. Is this your thinking? Thanks! This is the way I convert to 300bo brass. Cut, anneal, form, trim. Ditto, per guidance from dryflash3. |
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I use a 90* angle drill (battery powered) set to low gear. Seems to be working fine. Found it easier to use propane than MAP as MAP gets too hot. Also learned a very valuable lesson last night...well, two lessons. Don't anneal (or use anything that requires fire) when tired, second when done annealing 100 or so cases DO NOT grasp the angle drill by the top to set it off to the side  .
Guaranteed the meat from the side of your hand will roll over the not too cool socket! Gave myself a pretty deep burn, the kind that the skins just flashes white. Because of the way the skin cooked I really didn't expect huge blister I woke up with. Now maybe, just maybe being tired kept me from thinking through grabbing the drill but the fact remains I was tired and playing with fire and got myself hurt. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Ditto, per guidance from dryflash3. Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By snoog37:
Originally Posted By jcwallace84:
Dryflash, So when converting 223 to 300blk do you anneal the chopped 223 cases and then form them (and final trim)? I have over 1,000 rounds already cut ready to convert, I'm sure the softer annealed brass would be better to form. Is this your thinking? Thanks! But I do debur before forming because my Band Saw leaves a ragged edge that lets brass collect in my sizing die, which scratches the cases. Scratched cases. Edit to remove pic. My 300 blk forming process. I will remove this pic tomorrow, as it gets stolen a lot. Done. |
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Originally Posted By djryan13:
I think you misunderstood one thing. The striations are on the bullet after firing from the rifling. The bullet has no deformity. We find them all the time. They must bounce off the wood backdrop at such a low velocity that there is no sign of bullet impact. Velocity out of muzzle is fine. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3:
But I do debur before forming because my Band Saw leaves a ragged edge that lets brass collect in my sizing die, which scratches the cases. OP, cutting the cases first puts the most error-prone part of the conversion process up-front. It's possible to cut the case wrong, or damage the case in cutting. On the other hand, the only way to really screw up annealing is to overheat the case. If you use Tempilaq and keep an eye on when it "changes appearance", it's so far been "Glenn proof," which says something about how easy it is to do right. 
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Thanks dryflash, very informative and I appreciate you taking the time to take pictures and post them.
I'm guessing it's in the instructions, but tempilacque works as an indicator by becoming transparent once it reaches the indicated temperature, right. I believe that is what I read on another forum after some additional research after your previous download of some knowledge to me. It may be helpful to the original thread for us real new to reloading. Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By Shadowden: Thanks dryflash, very informative and I appreciate you taking the time to take pictures and post them. I'm guessing it's in the instructions, but tempilacque works as an indicator by becoming transparent once it reaches the indicated temperature, right. I believe that is what I read on another forum after some additional research after your previous download of some knowledge to me. It may be helpful to the original thread for us real new to reloading. Thanks! As case rotates you can see the spot of Tempilaq as it comes around. Apply heat to the case shoulder and the Tempilaq will disappear (melt) in 4-5 seconds. At this point take the heat away and drop case in metal pan to cool.
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Originally Posted By Vinny302:
I think you guys are misunderstanding my question. Say you have been annealing but you have over annealed some cases. Could you just reheat them red hot then quench them quickly. Would that quick quench return the hardness to the brass? This is just a question I have been thinking about, I am using Templaq and have been annealing properly. V Brass behaves differently than iron/steel quenching in water won't harden brass. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
The few times I've annealed case mouths, it was with the cases standing in a shallow pan filled with water (to ensure the case head does not get over 212 deg F and will not get annealed). The deep well socket does the same thing, but allows you to apply heat consistently around the entire case. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer: The few times I've annealed case mouths, it was with the cases standing in a shallow pan filled with water (to ensure the case head does not get over 212 deg F and will not get annealed). That's the old school uncontrolled, not using Tempilaq, method. Water no longer has a use if you use Tempilaq correctly, unless you want to add an unnecessary step and the drying time. |
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Originally Posted By catgunguy: I have read both pages of this good post about using Tempilaq 750 but have not read how one removes the Tempilaq once the cases are annealed, or is it necessary be fore loading. Thank you. There is a little discoloration inside the case neck, but it causes no problems. If your OCD, you could run a copper barrel cleaning brush through the neck a few times. I just load them as is after sizing and final trimming/deburing.
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Thanks for the excellent writeup Dryflash. I'm working on my automatic annealer, but I'll probably start using this method for small batches and until that is finished.
I do have a question though, have you ever tested pre/post annealed brass to see if it changes the headspace reading and/or the case length? I just finished making some 300 blackout and really don't want to go back and resize/trim again... I wasn't sure if you've done this measurement already. If not, I'll try to do it tonight? |
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Now days when I form 300 blk cases, I anneal before forming the shoulder. So headspace is set then and case final trimmed/deburred before loading. If you are going to anneal formed cases, I would anneal then run case through sizing die and check length. On cases I had formed pre annealing, after I fired them they were cleaned then annealed. Sized, trimmed as needed/deburred and loaded. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Now days when I form 300 blk cases, I anneal before forming the shoulder. So headspace is set then and case final trimmed/deburred before loading. If you are going to anneal formed cases, I would anneal then run case through sizing die and check length. On cases I had formed pre annealing, after I fired them they were cleaned then annealed. Sized, trimmed as needed/deburred and loaded. Yeah, I agree in the sense that I wish I would have annealed before I formed them.. I guess what I'm asking is... Is there any real proof that annealing changes the dimensions of the brass? I constantly hear people say not to anneal after forming, or if you do to resize them again, but I've never seen the data to suggest it actually effects the size. You would think the brass would expand/contract the same amount before and after heating, I don't understand why it would expand when you heat it but not contract back to the same size? I plan on annealing some when I get home, so I'll take some measurements before/after and see if I can prove either way. I figured you may have already done the measurements to see? |
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Originally Posted By drfroglegs: Yeah, I agree in the sense that I wish I would have annealed before I formed them.. I guess what I'm asking is... Is there any real proof that annealing changes the dimensions of the brass? I constantly hear people say not to anneal after forming, or if you do to resize them again, but I've never seen the data to suggest it actually effects the size. You would think the brass would expand/contract the same amount before and after heating, I don't understand why it would expand when you heat it but not contract back to the same size? I plan on annealing some when I get home, so I'll take some measurements before/after and see if I can prove either way. I figured you may have already done the measurements to see? Originally Posted By drfroglegs: Originally Posted By dryflash3: Now days when I form 300 blk cases, I anneal before forming the shoulder. So headspace is set then and case final trimmed/deburred before loading. If you are going to anneal formed cases, I would anneal then run case through sizing die and check length. On cases I had formed pre annealing, after I fired them they were cleaned then annealed. Sized, trimmed as needed/deburred and loaded. Yeah, I agree in the sense that I wish I would have annealed before I formed them.. I guess what I'm asking is... Is there any real proof that annealing changes the dimensions of the brass? I constantly hear people say not to anneal after forming, or if you do to resize them again, but I've never seen the data to suggest it actually effects the size. You would think the brass would expand/contract the same amount before and after heating, I don't understand why it would expand when you heat it but not contract back to the same size? I plan on annealing some when I get home, so I'll take some measurements before/after and see if I can prove either way. I figured you may have already done the measurements to see? No I didn't take any measurements. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
I did not use Tempilaq but it could have easily been added to the process, had I wanted to do so. I mentioned this method because none of the processes above monitor or control the temperature/temper of the case heads. The issue addressed by using water remains valid - it controls the temperature of the case head. If you heat the case mouth and melt the Tempilaq and maybe go above the minimum melt of the Tempilaq, what temperature did your case head reach? Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
The few times I've annealed case mouths, it was with the cases standing in a shallow pan filled with water (to ensure the case head does not get over 212 deg F and will not get annealed). That's the old school uncontrolled, not using Tempilaq, method. Water no longer has a use if you use Tempilaq correctly, unless you want to add an unnecessary step and the drying time. I did not use Tempilaq but it could have easily been added to the process, had I wanted to do so. I mentioned this method because none of the processes above monitor or control the temperature/temper of the case heads. The issue addressed by using water remains valid - it controls the temperature of the case head. If you heat the case mouth and melt the Tempilaq and maybe go above the minimum melt of the Tempilaq, what temperature did your case head reach? I think that's the point of the deep socket, to protect the rest of the case from the direct heat. The thermal conductivity of water is about 0.58 W/(m k) while brass is 109.. So we can pretty definitively state that water does nothing to prevent the brass from heating up in the 4 seconds it's exposed to heat. The only effect that water will have is protecting the area that is submerged from the direct flame (due to the low conductivity), which is virtually the same thing the socket is doing... I will concede that the water is definitely better than air (actually about 30x better), but I just simply don't think it matters very much when you consider ~218x the heat is transferred to the base via the brass heating than is transferred to the water to cool it... Just my $0.02. |
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Its' my understanding that up until the high 400's you're not making any changes to brass no matter how long you hold it at that temperature -
Optimal Case Temperatures for Successful Annealing Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature. The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged. If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F). The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft. Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft |
Low budget Annealing (Page 1 of 3)
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