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Posted: 6/16/2023 1:28:49 AM EDT
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Question: There's an AR15 lower. It was originally and actually made by a well-known Washington State OEM, but there was a variance letter done to have someone else's markings on it. No problem there, just an interesting red herring to the AR's story. :) In it's days on this earth, it wound up being sold to a different FFL/SOT, who SBR registers it via Form 2, and engraves their name/city/state on the lower and uses the original serial number, so now we've got one serial engraving and two name/city/state engravings That FFL removes the barrel, and poof, it's now a GCA Title 1 rifle, sells it to another FFL/SOT. Third FFL/SOT registers it as an SBR, adding HIS name/city/state to the growing list of engraving graffiti. So now we've got one serial engraving and three name/city/state engravings. Gun is parted out, barrel disappears again, and poof, it's GCA firearm again. Eventually it comes to yet another dealer... how should it be logged in? I assume it goes in the bound books with the original maker's name only, but all this sort of assumes the receiving FFL knows which ones are the original maker... And if this next FFL/SOT wants to SBR it again, the dang thing will now have one serial number but with four different maker marks engraved on it. Is there a ruling on multiple engravings and how to log in? |
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Originally Posted By swtc: Question: There's an AR15 lower. It was originally and actually made by a well-known Washington State OEM, but there was a variance letter done to have someone else's markings on it. No problem there, just an interesting red herring to the AR's story. :) In it's days on this earth, it wound up being sold to a different FFL/SOT, who SBR registers it via Form 2, and engraves their name/city/state on the lower and uses the original serial number, so now we've got one serial engraving and two name/city/state engravings That FFL removes the barrel, and poof, it's now a GCA Title 1 rifle, sells it to another FFL/SOT. Third FFL/SOT registers it as an SBR, adding HIS name/city/state to the growing list of engraving graffiti. So now we've got one serial engraving and three name/city/state engravings. Gun is parted out, barrel disappears again, and poof, it's GCA firearm again. Eventually it comes to yet another dealer... how should it be logged in? I assume it goes in the bound books with the original maker's name only, but all this sort of assumes the receiving FFL knows which ones are the original maker... And if this next FFL/SOT wants to SBR it again, the dang thing will now have one serial number but with four different maker marks engraved on it. Is there a ruling on multiple engravings and how to log in? Log it in with OEM Info since it is Title I. |
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Originally Posted By ctfish15: Something special about this lower? Is this a run of the mill Anderson pony? No, it's just a generic AR lower though. The point is just since it's got a few maker's marks graffiti'd all over it, it gets difficult to determine who is the SBR maker. (Ok, if it's got a Colt pony and 6920 rollmarkings on it, then its a bit more obvious that the original maker is Colt, right? But if it's a no-name lower getting logged in an a semi, do you log in with the info engraved by FFL#1, or FFL #2, or FFL #3?) Let's say you're a non-NFA gun dealer, and a guy comes in with a lower to sell. No ATF paperwork to reference because it's not NFA. Lower physically has one serial and three maker's names & addresses. Which do you put in your books as the maker? Just guess that the one closest to the magwell is the "right" one? If it is NFA SBR, then yes, if you have the Form 3 when the SBR transfers to you, it will say who you're getting it from and what it actually is. But absent that, in a crime trace, during an ATF audit, or when logging it in or out for gunsmithing that didn't require a Form 5, or someone receives it when it's an ex-SBR but it now has multiple marks on it, etc... it just gets messy and confusing to have a few makers marks on one single gun. |
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Originally Posted By swtc: No, it's just a generic AR lower though. The point is just since it's got a few maker's marks graffiti'd all over it, it gets difficult to determine who is the SBR maker. (Ok, if it's got a Colt pony and 6920 rollmarkings on it, then its a bit more obvious that the original maker is Colt, right? Originally Posted By swtc: No, it's just a generic AR lower though. The point is just since it's got a few maker's marks graffiti'd all over it, it gets difficult to determine who is the SBR maker. (Ok, if it's got a Colt pony and 6920 rollmarkings on it, then its a bit more obvious that the original maker is Colt, right? Colt is the original manufacturer, not maker. There is a difference. But if it's a no-name lower getting logged in an a semi, do you log in with the info engraved by FFL#1, or FFL #2, or FFL #3?) Colt as the manufacturer. ATF ain't gonna bitch about you listing all the subsequent NFA makers as well. Let's say you're a non-NFA gun dealer, and a guy comes in with a lower to sell. No ATF paperwork to reference because it's not NFA. Lower physically has one serial and three maker's names & addresses. Which do you put in your books as the maker? Having an SOT doesn't change how I record the acquisition of a Title I firearm. As RenegadeX explained, record the OEM. Just guess that the one closest to the magwell is the "right" one? Seriously Clark?  If it is NFA SBR, then yes, if you have the Form 3 when the SBR transfers to you, it will say who you're getting it from and what it actually is. But absent that, in a crime trace, during an ATF audit, or when logging it in or out for gunsmithing that didn't require a Form 5, or someone receives it when it's an ex-SBR but it now has multiple marks on it, etc... it just gets messy and confusing to have a few makers marks on one single gun. It gets messy because ATF's procedures are messy. That's one reason why they are asking Form 1 "makers" to submit photos of the markings on firearms. It's because people don't read the instructions and confuse "manufacturer vs maker". |
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Having an SOT doesn't change how I record the acquisition of a Title I firearm. As RenegadeX explained, record the OEM. And that was the point of the Colt example vs. a no-name lower: What if the FFL doesn't KNOW the OEM. ("Obviously if there's a Colt pony...") But what if there's NOT? Then it's a lower with a bunch of boutique unknown-brand markings on it. In this case, we don't know which marks are the maker(s) and which is the manufacturer. Saying "log it in as the OEM" suggests we know who the OEM was vs. who the downstream maker(s) are. The line "Just guess that the one closest to the magwell is the "right" one?" was sarcastic frustration at the situation. When you said "It gets messy because ATF's procedures are messy." There we absolutely agree and that was probably the main point of this post. :) Just a little venting. It's pointing out a somewhat theoretical situation that illustrates how messed up ATF's requirements to have a confusing amount of different engravings on one single firearm. But as a side note to make a tangible example of how easily ATF is confused in practice, I once had an ATF audit where they dinged me with a couple violations. They found I had a "U.S. Machinegun, 5.56mm" or some such approximate name, but with no paperwork for it. They also found I had a Form 3 for a M249 in my inventory but couldn't find the gun. You already can see where this is going: I flipped the gun around and showed the IOIs that both violations were in error because the single gun was both of their records. The left side of the gun was engraved with what was on the Form 3. The right side of the gun said something else, so corresponded to nothing in my A&D books. They corrected my demerits and we all had a good chuckle. |
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Originally Posted By swtc: That was the point of the "Let's say you're a non-NFA gun dealer, and a guy comes in with a lower to sell. No ATF paperwork to reference because it's not NFA." It wasn't about whether or not a SOT changes how you record acquisitions, it was about not having a Form 3 to reference to tell you who the OEM was. Originally Posted By swtc: That was the point of the "Let's say you're a non-NFA gun dealer, and a guy comes in with a lower to sell. No ATF paperwork to reference because it's not NFA." It wasn't about whether or not a SOT changes how you record acquisitions, it was about not having a Form 3 to reference to tell you who the OEM was. A Form 3 may not be accurate. The factory Benelli M1 Super 90 SBS I received last week shows the model as "11245".....thats an inventory stock#, not the model name as marked on the firearm. Benelli has been doing that for years. You won't find "11245" anywhere on the gun. Thats seems to be the practice by Benelli when they file their Form 2's.....but they aren't marking the firearm with that info. ATF apparently doesn't care. Similarly, if you make an SBR using a Colt lower receiver, complete the Form 1 with "swtc" as the original manufacturer .......in the past ATF has approved that Form 1. Even though it's not correct. They can't see what is in your hands. You could lie about caliber, OAL, bbl length whatever and it gets a stamp. You subsequently transfer that firearm and guess what....ATF gets upset if the Form 3 or Form 4 doesn't match the original Form 1. And that was the point of the Colt example vs. a no-name lower: What if the FFL doesn't KNOW the OEM. ("Obviously if there's a Colt pony...") But what if there's NOT? There are hundreds of OEM lowers manufacturers that don't have the Colt pony. It just takes a smidge of common sense to read whats engraved and determine who is a "maker" vs "manufacturer": Big Bob Family Trust, Palmetto State Armory. InGodWe Trust, Spikes Tactical. Mike Hunt Plano TX, Anderson Mfg. Any guess as to who the maker is? The OEM manufacturer?  If you have a homemade, 80% or privately made lower......it now has to be engraved per ATF Ruling 2021R-05F. That means the first FFL to acquire that homemade lower will have to engrave it if the original maker did not....and record in his books who he received it from. Then it's a lower with a bunch of boutique unknown-brand markings on it. In this case, we don't know which marks are the maker(s) and which is the manufacturer. Saying "log it in as the OEM" suggests we know who the OEM was vs. who the downstream maker(s) are. Since 1968, ATF and federal law has required certain markings on firearms. I'm unaware of any AR lower manufacturer that doesn't engrave their name/model/serial# on the lower. The line "Just guess that the one closest to the magwell is the "right" one?" was sarcastic frustration at the situation. I hope. If you truly don't know which marking is the OEM........Google, call ATF, post a pic in this subforum. There are dozens of guys in this subforum that would be delighted to help. When you said "It gets messy because ATF's procedures are messy." There we absolutely agree and that was probably the main point of this post. :) Just a little venting. It's pointing out a somewhat theoretical situation that illustrates how messed up ATF's requirements to have a confusing amount of different engravings on one single firearm. But as a side note to make a tangible example of how easily ATF is confused in practice, I once had an ATF audit where they dinged me with a couple violations. They found I had a "U.S. Machinegun, 5.56mm" or some such approximate name, but with no paperwork for it. They also found I had a Form 3 for a M249 in my inventory but couldn't find the gun. You already can see where this is going: I flipped the gun around and showed the IOIs that both violations were in error because the single gun was both of their records. The left side of the gun was engraved with what was on the Form 3. The right side of the gun said something else, so corresponded to nothing in my A&D books. They corrected my demerits and we all had a good chuckle. They have one silencer in my eForms that I've never had in my possession. It was Form 3'd to me, but never shipped. My eForms also has a Benelli Nova SBS listed twice....identical entries. They can't figure out how it happened or how to remove the duplicate. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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I've always thought it'd be a fun exercise to see how many manufacturers we could get on a lower, and see how the atf would react to it. I could build a receiver, sell it to the next manufacturer, who would mark it and install or change one part, or refinish or something before selling the receiver (eventually to be a regular rifle) to the next manufacturer. Repeat until there's no more places to mark it. 
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