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Posted: 12/9/2021 8:31:33 PM EDT
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Ok, so I’ve been getting more into annealing. There is a lot of discussion on correct temperature. The common thinking is 750 at the neck is correct temp. There are some very smart people however that note that this is based on graphing centered around an hour. Obviously you can’t hold the brass at 750 for an hour. They suggest somewhere around 1000 at the neck. There are others that say color change is a good way to gauge this. That a dull red indicates this temperature. There are even others that say it’s not really that important. As long as you are getting past the fat middle range of temperature and get over that threshold, going over doesn’t really matter much. Looking for everyone’s opinion on this. |
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Turn off the lights. When the neck begins to glow red in the dark is the old school way to know when to stop. If I were going to do this I would look at more modern methods. So that’s a common method, and one backed up by some smart guys. A dull red glow is right at that higher temp. But playing around tonight with that method, you would need to make sure you had a room that could constantly be a given brightness when using it. Even a small amount of light can change when you see it. |
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Originally Posted By Flynnchester: I have loaded tons of GI brass in 06 , .308 and 5.56, and never annealed any of it. I know it comes factory annealed. What’s the advantage to this method? <This I reload brass in semi-autos no more than five firings, counting the first. Surplus brass is too cheap to monkey with. |
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I load a pretty hot 300 rum load using a 230 berger @3220fps with a coal of 3.950", in testing I took it all the way up to 3350fps which showed ejector swipe, flattened primer and a slight resistance in the bolt...That same load has gone 15 reloads, and still going strong, unheard of with 300rum and RP brass..I use a hotter Mapp gas, and I anneal twice per loading...One good way to get more consistency is just as the case reaches temp, you will see orange sparkles in the flame..very easy way to get more consistent annealing....
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider: I load a pretty hot 300 rum load using a 230 berger @3220fps with a coal of 3.950", in testing I took it all the way up to 3350fps which showed ejector swipe, flattened primer and a slight resistance in the bolt...That same load has gone 15 reloads, and still going strong, unheard of with 300rum and RP brass..I use a hotter Mapp gas, and I anneal twice per loading...One good way to get more consistency is just as the case reaches temp, you will see orange sparkles in the flame..very easy way to get more consistent annealing.... Yea I’ve tried to look for that too, but can’t seem to get there. Are you annealing brass before it’s cleaned? |
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Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: Yea I’ve tried to look for that too, but can’t seem to get there. Are you annealing brass before it’s cleaned? No, I de-prime, run thru the FA rotary cleaner, bump shoulder, Then neck size on a bushing, mandrel die to bring neck ID to .306", trim chamfer, then neck die down to .304", second anneal, second FA rotary, mandrel die for final neck size(.305") and prime/charge/seat bullet... |
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Originally Posted By Hoser: I use an AMP and take all the guessing out of it. Long range ammo gets annealed before each reload. AMP uses 850 btw, in case OP is curious. OP, I made my own induction annealer. You can make one for less than $50 from parts that are available from Amazon. |
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Turn off the lights. When the neck begins to glow red in the dark is the old school way to know when to stop. If I were going to do this I would look at more modern methods. While slow, I have had good results with this. A lot of people seem to use music with a strong beat, but I’m tone deaf like that. My eyes are pretty well calibrated, and the resulting discoloration is pretty dang consistent when I turn the lights on. Of course, the ears and eyes will never beat a properly tuned machine. And you can easily work on other stuff while the machine runs. |
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Originally Posted By GimpyPaw: I can't be the only one who's desire to know more just got triggered. Yea. I’ve seen a few dyi setups, but would love to see his too. Although I’m probably going to stick with my Annealeez, it does seem to have a lot of benefits over flame. |
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Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: Yea. I’ve seen a few dyi setups, but would love to see his too. Although I’m probably going to stick with my Annealeez, it does seem to have a lot of benefits over flame. I can do the parts list later when I'm at my PC. I really just built it as a proof of concept of the components. I plan on automating it...it is a winter project that Iay or may not get to, but I have all the electronics on hand. It is currently air cooled, and allows for about 6/min in its current form. It takes about 6 seconds to anneal, plus four seconds of fan to cool down. At this 10 seconds per round it is essentially able to be ran as long as you'd like. The chassis was designed in SolidWorks and 3D printed. The fan triggers right after annealing completes, and it's designed to cool the coil. The area the brass sits in can be swapped for different calibers and has a built in trap door. After annealing, spin the disc 120 degrees (it is indexed) and it drops the brass and it's ready for the next round. Rather than using the programmable relay board, I'll be automating with an Arduino Nano. I just need to get around to modeling the device itself. Attached File Attached File A little jig to make the coil (coil is #8AWG solid copper wire). Attached File |
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Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: I can do the parts list later when I'm at my PC. I really just built it as a proof of concept of the components. I plan on automating it...it is a winter project that Iay or may not get to, but I have all the electronics on hand. It is currently air cooled, and allows for about 6/min in its current form. It takes about 6 seconds to anneal, plus four seconds of fan to cool down. At this 10 seconds per round it is essentially able to be ran as long as you'd like. The chassis was designed in SolidWorks and 3D printed. The fan triggers right after annealing completes, and it's designed to cool the coil. The area the brass sits in can be swapped for different calibers and has a built in trap door. After annealing, spin the disc 120 degrees (it is indexed) and it drops the brass and it's ready for the next round. Rather than using the programmable relay board, I'll be automating with an Arduino Nano. I just need to get around to modeling the device itself. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467079/IMG_20211210_104253_jpg-2198732.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467079/IMG_20211210_104251_jpg-2198733.JPG A little jig to make the coil (coil is #8AWG solid copper wire). https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467079/IMG_20211210_104302_jpg-2198735.JPG Man that’s cool! Looks like a lot of thought went into the design. |
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I believe a member on this forum said he was shooting a Palma match and asked the top shooters what they were using for annealing. I had been shopping and even had parts to build my own. I just never took the time to follow through. He said the top shooters were using this, and I bought it, Mikes Reloading Bench:  It comes with all the conversion parts and is super easy to set up and use, at a price point I could live with. |
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Originally Posted By wildearp: I believe a member on this forum said he was shooting a Palma match and asked the top shooters what they were using for annealing. I had been shopping and even had parts to build my own. I just never took the time to follow through. He said the top shooters were using this, and I bought it, Mikes Reloading Bench: https://i.imgur.com/BXMb5ht.png It comes with all the conversion parts and is super easy to set up and use, at a price point I could live with. I run the Annealeez. Looks very similar in design. |
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Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: Ok, so I’ve been getting more into annealing... There is a lot of discussion on correct temperature... Looking for everyone’s opinion on this. I have recently concluded a couple of experiments into this very topic. Full disclosure I do have a financial interest in annealing products, but these experiments were designed to learn the process more so than for marketing. There are two big reasons to anneal. First is the well understood and long accepted application to mitigate neck cracking. Second is the rather new and very theoretical idea that it can help accuracy. It is entirely probable that "correct temperature" is different for the different applications. In fact, it is possible that even within this annealing-for-accuracy field there are different temps, as there are multiple theories on the mechanism of improvement (IE consistency in shoulder geometry vs. neck tension), and if both mechanisms are active they might themselves require different annealing conditions for optimal results. I am not convinced that annealing for accuracy is a real phenomenon, and make no claims about my products with regards to accuracy. I have done no experiments in that direction, but I do not discourage others from doing so, and would be happy to discuss theories and experiment design on the matter. However, I am a firm believer in annealing to extend case life, and for that I have good evidence to support 500°C as being the prime target number. Somebody stated in an earlier post that AMP anneals at 850F, I don't believe that. Their machines induce a big drop in hardness, along with significant grain growth. In my tests I had to anneal at 700°C (1292F) to achieve similar results.  |
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As far as why anneal? I cut and processed these .300 cases from .223. Whether they may be work hardened or not, from forming and trimming, I like to be sure and just anneal them for a full reset on the metallurgy. Consistent neck tension is the goal. Peeps tell me this makes cases more accurate, and I am not planning on doing the testing they did to prove it. You never regret buying a quality tool, and it often costs you very little to use when you look at future resale value. The bonus is that once I have this tool, I can anneal all of the things. That means for me: .30-06, .308, 5.56x45, .30-30, and if the only thing I achieve is longer case life, I am winning. I tried the cheap-o socket-in-drill method. I also tried the put-case-in-tray-of-water method, where you heat the neck and then tip the case over into the water. My time is mostly worthless, but just not that worthless. I prefer it to be worthless in other areas beside annealing.
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Originally Posted By BattleRife: I have recently concluded a couple of experiments into this very topic. Full disclosure I do have a financial interest in annealing products, but these experiments were designed to learn the process more so than for marketing. There are two big reasons to anneal. First is the well understood and long accepted application to mitigate neck cracking. Second is the rather new and very theoretical idea that it can help accuracy. It is entirely probable that "correct temperature" is different for the different applications. In fact, it is possible that even within this annealing-for-accuracy field there are different temps, as there are multiple theories on the mechanism of improvement (IE consistency in shoulder geometry vs. neck tension), and if both mechanisms are active they might themselves require different annealing conditions for optimal results. I am not convinced that annealing for accuracy is a real phenomenon, and make no claims about my products with regards to accuracy. I have done no experiments in that direction, but I do not discourage others from doing so, and would be happy to discuss theories and experiment design on the matter. However, I am a firm believer in annealing to extend case life, and for that I have good evidence to support 500°C as being the prime target number. Somebody stated in an earlier post that AMP anneals at 850F, I don't believe that. Their machines induce a big drop in hardness, along with significant grain growth. In my tests I had to anneal at 700°C (1292F) to achieve similar results. https://ballisticrecreations.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/z-Consolidated-Cracking-2.jpg Very interesting. Thanks for the info. Now you know what I’m going to ask…. And I’m hoping you can answer. From the perspective of the average precision shooter, not bleeding edge, but trying to push for increased case life and whatever accuracy advantage it may or may not give….. what is the correct temperature or stage we should be pushing for? |
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Originally Posted By BattleRife: I have recently concluded a couple of experiments into this very topic. Full disclosure I do have a financial interest in annealing products, but these experiments were designed to learn the process more so than for marketing. There are two big reasons to anneal. First is the well understood and long accepted application to mitigate neck cracking. Second is the rather new and very theoretical idea that it can help accuracy. It is entirely probable that "correct temperature" is different for the different applications. In fact, it is possible that even within this annealing-for-accuracy field there are different temps, as there are multiple theories on the mechanism of improvement (IE consistency in shoulder geometry vs. neck tension), and if both mechanisms are active they might themselves require different annealing conditions for optimal results. I am not convinced that annealing for accuracy is a real phenomenon, and make no claims about my products with regards to accuracy. I have done no experiments in that direction, but I do not discourage others from doing so, and would be happy to discuss theories and experiment design on the matter. However, I am a firm believer in annealing to extend case life, and for that I have good evidence to support 500°C as being the prime target number. Somebody stated in an earlier post that AMP anneals at 850F, I don't believe that. Their machines induce a big drop in hardness, along with significant grain growth. In my tests I had to anneal at 700°C (1292F) to achieve similar results. https://ballisticrecreations.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/z-Consolidated-Cracking-2.jpg They state themselves their machines anneal at 850 as the target temp. I wasn't guessing. And as someone who experiments and has financial interest I assume you are aware annealing time vs temp graphs are different for open air vs salt bath. 
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Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: They state themselves their machines anneal at 850 as the target temp. I wasn't guessing. And as someone who experiments and has financial interest I assume you are aware annealing time vs temp graphs are different for open air vs salt bath. Can you point me to where they say that? The amp guys seem to have a ton of info out there on the web, but I don’t where that info is. |
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Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: Can you point me to where they say that? The amp guys seem to have a ton of info out there on the web, but I don’t where that info is. Let me see if I can find it. It was a white paper they released back when they first came to market. They based it around hardness targets for the neck and shoulder of the brass. They said they had kept an open mind on temp as they focused on results and the annealing time they were aiming for, 850 seemed to be the right temp in air. ETA actually found an article from them I had not read before, but saying that an hour at 750 decreased HV from 200 to 117. And that was an hour. Ideal HV is ~100. They were able to achieve target HV in 3.4 seconds by heating to 1000 degrees. The goal is to keep the case head under about 570 degrees, at which point it softens too much and essentially ruins the brass. The neck/shoulder obviously get worked more and this start at a higher HV value. Also, side note...for those that said they turn the lights down and wait for a faint red glow...brass starts glowing at 950.
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To stay out of trouble with cartridge brass, try not to let the body get over 530 F in order to preserve the gradient of hardness. Without debating recrystallization slides, getting the body over 530 F has an effect we don't want in terms of tensile strength. We recommend 400 F Tempilaq is used on the body to guard against overheating. It keeps the margin on the 530 F concept, and, there is typically no need to go so slow with cartridge annealing that the heat should ever travel down the case that far. The "dull infrared glow in a darkened room" concept is still taught as the best process control point because it happens to line up with the right the temperature and visible to the human eye, and, also happens to be the right temp range to achieve annealing time based on the concept of the ramp rates for flame heat. Cartridge brass annealing happens on a time - temp basis so the ramp rates are important in terms of getting hot enough for long enough. Keeping the process very uniform and repeatable is one of the keys to getting a consistent ramp rate, and then using time to the glow point at the baseline is how you adjust. This reference is a little old and outdated in some ways, but the sections that talk about deep drawing, cold working, and annealing brass, are still relevant today. Short of some very expensive engineering texts, it is a good reference. https://ia801603.us.archive.org/28/items/AmmunitionMakingNRAByG.Frost1990/Ammunition%20Making-NRA%20%20by%20G.%20Frost-%281990%29%20_text.pdf |
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Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: Now you know what I’m going to ask…what is the correct temperature or stage we should be pushing for? Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: Now you know what I’m going to ask…what is the correct temperature or stage we should be pushing for? Yeah, I did know you were going to ask, which is why I said it. 500°C is the best answer I have. At 450° there is still some tendency to cracking, but at 500° there is none. Obviously at some point between the two there is a transition. If I get bored I may do more tests to find that point more precisely. Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: They state themselves their machines anneal at 850 as the target temp. I wasn't guessing. And as someone who experiments and has financial interest I assume you are aware annealing time vs temp graphs are different for open air vs salt bath. I've never seen them state that, anything I've seen from them is that don't pay attention to temperature. Not that I've ever seen anyone in this industry post a time vs. temp graph, but if they did there is no reason there would be a difference for open air vs. salt bath, unless they were measuring time heat was applied instead of time the material was actually at temperature. The alloy doesn't care how it got to 500°. Also, side note...for those that said they turn the lights down and wait for a faint red glow...brass starts glowing at 950. 950°F is 510°C. I anneal around that temperature all the time and see no glow, in a dark room or otherwise. You have to get really close to 600°C before that starts happening. |
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"I anneal around that temperature all the time and see no glow, in a dark room or otherwise. You have to get really close to 600°C before that starts happening." Not sure how you are measuring temps, but many metals, not just cartridge brass, glow well below 600C. Plain iron will glow at 460C. |
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Originally Posted By RegionRat: The "dull infrared glow in a darkened room" concept is still taught as the best process control point because it happens to line up with the right the temperature... I don't see many people teaching that, the predominate idea now is to control with 750°F Tempilaq. Many claim that any glow is too hot and ruins brass. I don't agree at all, but it's a common viewpoint. |
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Originally Posted By BattleRife: I don't see many people teaching that, the predominate idea now is to control with 750°F Tempilaq. Many claim that any glow is too hot and ruins brass. I don't agree at all, but it's a common viewpoint. Yea I’ve seen that a lot, but I’ve also seen it explained why 750 just isn’t enough to get a full anneal, and the explanations make sense. I see some very impressive f class guys saying this is the way, and then I see some other impressive guys saying 750. |
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Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: Yea I’ve seen that a lot, but I’ve also seen it explained why 750 just isn’t enough to get a full anneal, and the explanations make sense. I see some very impressive f class guys saying this is the way, and then I see some other impressive guys saying 750. Nobody is getting a "full" anneal, not even AMP. And nobody wants it, either. Fully annealed brass has a hardness of about HV 70, your shoulders would collapse when seating a bullet, if there was any neck tension at all. In my experiments I had to anneal at 750C to get 100% recrystallization. |
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I acquired so much 223/308 brass I never needed to anneal cases However 2004ish I decided to convert 350 3006 LC-match cases to 8MM Mauser. These started to get split necks after 2 rounds so I annealed them and rarely had any further splits I simply laid a propane torch on the edge of a table, held the cases by my fingers one at a time at the base and turned the case back and forth until my fingers felt the heat then dipped the case in water and set it on a towel. The cases had a nice brownish tint like military factory ammo does from below the shoulder to the mouth Also do this with some 1960's LC-M 308 cases I really like. Could I get any more low tech? |
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Originally Posted By Wulfmann: I acquired so much 223/308 brass I never needed to anneal cases However 2004ish I decided to convert 350 3006 LC-match cases to 8MM Mauser. These started to get split necks after 2 rounds so I annealed them and rarely had any further splits I simply laid a propane torch on the edge of a table, held the cases by my fingers one at a time at the base and turned the case back and forth until my fingers felt the heat then dipped the case in water and set it on a towel. The cases had a nice brownish tint like military factory ammo does from below the shoulder to the mouth Also do this with some 1960's LC-M 308 cases I really like. Could I get any more low tech? People like you that don’t obsess over what are probably trivial details kinda piss me off. 
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Great thread! I noted once I stared annealing my 338 Lapua brass my ES / SD went down. Whether it was from the annealing or, better reloading practices, I’m not sure? With the cost of 338 brass, I anneal at 750° with my Annealeez every reload. It doesn’t seem to be hurting anything. My 250 gr loads are on the warm side. My one lot of brass has been reloaded 5 times, with no signs of getting wore out. This part of the forum is the main reason I stay here! |
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Originally Posted By Henny: Great thread! I noted once I stared annealing my 338 Lapua brass my ES / SD went down. Whether it was from the annealing or, better reloading practices, I’m not sure? With the cost of 338 brass, I anneal at 750° with my Annealeez every reload. It doesn’t seem to be hurting anything. My 250 gr loads are on the warm side. My one lot of brass has been reloaded 5 times, with no signs of getting wore out. This part of the forum is the main reason I stay here! I mainly started for 300 win mag, but I’m annealing pretty much everything now. It’s just too easy to not bring into the fold. My win mags usually open up on the primer pockets before I get near a split neck, but it definitely helped with sd and es |
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Originally Posted By nmxdavenn: If you should be getting to 750 or 751.55  My finger is my thermometer. I am sure it was in the 750-751 range by the nature of the finger tip burns but my bad for not writing it down Seriously I understand why some go through the extra trouble to to gain absolute consistency. Case prep is the most important aspect to accuracy so the more each case is annealed like every other in a batch will translate to tighter groups My annealing converted LC-M cases to 8MM Mauser is based only on prolonging case life nothing more Off hand shooting an 8MM K98k at 25-50 yards hardly classifies as something one wants to get that extra .10" on your group size I am impressed by the ability to anneal so consistent as some are doing and I would consider that is I was still looking for small groups. |
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Originally Posted By Wulfmann: My finger is my thermometer. I am sure it was in the 750-751 range by the nature of the finger tip burns but my bad for not writing it down Seriously I understand why some go through the extra trouble to to gain absolute consistency. Case prep is the most important aspect to accuracy so the more each case is annealed like every other in a batch will translate to tighter groups My annealing converted LC-M cases to 8MM Mauser is based only on prolonging case life nothing more Off hand shooting an 8MM K98k at 25-50 yards hardly classifies as something one wants to get that extra .10" on your group size I am impressed by the ability to anneal so consistent as some are doing and I would consider that is I was still looking for small groups. I once annealed over 500 308 LC cases using the finger method in 2 sittings.... after that my fingers convinced me to build a flame annealer. |
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Originally Posted By Blowout: I once annealed over 500 308 LC cases using the finger method in 2 sittings.... after that my fingers convinced me to build a flame annealer. Understandable. 308 is far more difficult than 8MM Mauser using the finger hold as I too found out The 308 being a X51MM and the 8MM being a X57MM that extra 6MM is a big deal when you are torching the shorter neck from the finger held base |
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Originally Posted By Wulfmann: Understandable. 308 is far more difficult than 8MM Mauser using the finger hold as I too found out The 308 being a X51MM and the 8MM being a X57MM that extra 6MM is a big deal when you are torching the shorter neck from the finger held base I haven't tried to anneal any 30-06 yet. When I do I'll have to try the old school finger hold method with 750 tempilaq on the ID of the neck to see if it gets there. I'd estimate a temp of 160F - 170F at the case head before you need to let go. I'm currently using 750F as an end point with the annealing machine. If I were ever to go to 950F I'd definitely use a stripe of 450F tempilaq down the case to see how far the heat migrates. I've seen a lot of pictures of folks with the flame not optimally positioned to the case. Hottest part of the flame is at the tip of the inner cone. Adjusting the torch so this inner cone just licks the case will provide the most heat transfer. Attached File It's not easy to maintain the optimum flame position while hand holding either the case or the torch. This was another motivator for me building a machine. |
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