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Posted: 5/23/2025 5:20:05 AM EDT
| Has anybody had recent experience with the K&M M17S? Just trying to get an idea of some of the .308 bullpups on the market, and this is the one I've heard the least about. Been considering a Tavor 7 as I'd like to stay with the bullpup format, but I'm finding there is always something I don't like about the available options. |
| I was shooting with a friend this past Monday 05/19/25 who owns 2 of them. His older one works well seems to be 100% reliable and groups around 2MOA. The newer on one, I believe he purchased in November 2024, has problems. Reliability is is very ammo dependent. Some brands work ok and others not at all. None were 100%. The most fired with out a malfunction was 5 rounds. Changing gas setting did not help. The gas setting from 5 to 6 made a big difference. On five it seemed to be under gassed and on setting 6 very over gassed causing double feeds. Accuracy was not good averaging 4 to 5 MOA with all brands with Igman being the worst. The Igman NATO ammo would not function my M1A , that is not picky about ammo, at all. I found shooting the M17S to be pleasurable. For a 7.62 bullpup recoil was not bad. On par with my M1A. Ron said he is going to send the rifle to K&M hopefully to get it straightened out. |
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Originally Posted By LG45: I was shooting with a friend this past Monday 05/19/25 who owns 2 of them. His older one works well seems to be 100% reliable and groups around 2MOA. The newer on one, I believe he purchased in November 2024, has problems. Reliability is is very ammo dependent. Some brands work ok and others not at all. None were 100%. The most fired with out a malfunction was 5 rounds. Changing gas setting did not help. The gas setting from 5 to 6 made a big difference. On five it seemed to be under gassed and on setting 6 very over gassed causing double feeds. Accuracy was not good averaging 4 to 5 MOA with all brands with Igman being the worst. The Igman NATO ammo would not function my M1A , that is not picky about ammo, at all. I found shooting the M17S to be pleasurable. For a 7.62 bullpup recoil was not bad. On par with my M1A. Ron said he is going to send the rifle to K&M hopefully to get it straightened out. I appreciate the info, really want to keep with bullpups, but the Tavor 7 seems to be the only good option that I'm willing to look at, and I'm not thrilled about the weight of it. Don't really want to give my money to DT and those behind them, only to wind up with a last gen WLVRN when they announce the next version that'll probably be called the WPNX or something as silly as that. |
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke: I appreciate the info, really want to keep with bullpups, but the Tavor 7 seems to be the only good option that I'm willing to look at, and I'm not thrilled about the weight of it. Don't really want to give my money to DT and those behind them, only to wind up with a last gen WLVRN when they announce the next version that'll probably be called the WPNX or something as silly as that. If you look hard enough, you can find reasons to not give money to any manufacturer or those behind them. ALso..Why not the Keltec RFB? |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: If you look hard enough, you can find reasons to not give money to any manufacturer or those behind them. ALso..Why not the Keltec RFB? Fair enough about not giving money to companies. I just don't trust DT after watching everything go down from the launch of the MDR, and the group behind them give me more pause than usual. I looked at the RFB for a while, and beyond my general hesitance with Kel-Tec (I've owned a KSG that was fantastic, but everyone else I've personally known that has a Kel-Tec in some flavor has had repeated issues with several different products from their lineup), I'm also not wanting to get into the FAL magazine situation as most of the current production ones I've seen don't even have a good track record in the rifles they were designed for. Plus, last time I looked at getting surplus FAL mags, good ones were going for 45$ at minimum with many pushing upwards of 70$. If Kel-Tec could update the RFB to AR-10 mags, I'd probably be more inclined to give it a serious look. Already have a dozen good mags of that type, and they didn't run me more than 160$ for the dozen all together. I really love how the RFB looks though, and how compact and slick it is compared to many of its counterparts on the market. |
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That is the biggest downfall with the RFB, the magazine. I get it, when they first came out, we were in the heyday of FAL surplus and you could get a good Austrian mag for $5-$8 a pop. SR-25 mags were $100 a piece if you could find them. Funny how its switched but the FAL got sunset around the world while the SR-25/LR-308 pattern exploded. I have a healthy stockpile of FAL mags since I was around back then but folks just now finding an RFB won't have that luxury. I am somewhat surprised Kel-tec hasn't done an RFB G2 to change the magazine, it seems like it would be a worthwhile and smart investment at this point in the market. They've certainly evolved the Sub 2K and have the resources to build dumb shit, so why do it to a really good design they have and improve it for the 2020s? Ignoring the mags, it seems the RFB follows the usual Kel-tec MO: most of them are fine but there's an occasional epic lemon. They tend to have good CS though and will eventually take care of it. When faced with this decision, I ended up going Tavor 7 myself. If they'd go back and update the RFB some, I'd probably buy one too, but it seems like the height of early-2000s pre-ban era bullpup design right now. |
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A switch to AR-10 mags and updating the handguard to something a bit more modern would be great. Maybe even finding a way to make the gas system a bit more accommodating with less adjustment necessary. Though that would likely require a larger change than what'd they be happy with. I vaguely remember years ago that someone was saying that Kel-Tec was looking into doing a .308 version of an RDB, but it probably got lost in all their creative coke lines. Maybe if I find a ridiculously good deal on an RFB, I'd be willing to spend money on mags. |
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke: A switch to AR-10 mags and updating the handguard to something a bit more modern would be great. Maybe even finding a way to make the gas system a bit more accommodating with less adjustment necessary. Though that would likely require a larger change than what'd they be happy with. I vaguely remember years ago that someone was saying that Kel-Tec was looking into doing a .308 version of an RDB, but it probably got lost in all their creative coke lines. Maybe if I find a ridiculously good deal on an RFB, I'd be willing to spend money on mags. Sometimes there are good deals on RFB. I scored a used on on Gun broker sometime in 2021 for 800$..But turned around and sold it because I already had one and just wanted data to compare the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 systems. As for mags or needing to update to the SR25..Meh..The SCAR uses a modified FAL mag..While there is a lower you can bolt on for A SCAR for it to use SR25 mags..Most folks dont bother. If the aftermarket wanted to do this for the RFB, they would have by now, there just isnt an interest. I have surplus mags but I've been buying new DSA and metal mags from Keepshooting.com. Both are around 35$. I haven't had any problems with these. I also have several older 30rounders from DSA that folks said had problems. Fortunately that didn't happen with mine. Handguard already has an update from LuckyIrishman. Its what I run. The nice part about the tunable gas system in the RFB is it makes it soft shooting. Its really an advanced feature that usualyl costs money to add to other systems. The RDB is actually a quite fun 556 system. But basically everything that looked cool (6.5grendel RDB and the M43RDB) when poof a long time ago. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Sometimes there are good deals on RFB. I scored a used on on Gun broker sometime in 2021 for 800$..But turned around and sold it because I already had one and just wanted data to compare the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 systems. As for mags or needing to update to the SR25..Meh..The SCAR uses a modified FAL mag..While there is a lower you can bolt on for A SCAR for it to use SR25 mags..Most folks dont bother. If the aftermarket wanted to do this for the RFB, they would have by now, there just isnt an interest. I have surplus mags but I've been buying new DSA and metal mags from Keepshooting.com. Both are around 35$. I haven't had any problems with these. I also have several older 30rounders from DSA that folks said had problems. Fortunately that didn't happen with mine. Handguard already has an update from LuckyIrishman. Its what I run. The nice part about the tunable gas system in the RFB is it makes it soft shooting. Its really an advanced feature that usualyl costs money to add to other systems. The RDB is actually a quite fun 556 system. But basically everything that looked cool (6.5grendel RDB and the M43RDB) when poof a long time ago. The M43 was really cool and I was pretty interested in the concept. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. As the RFB/mag thoughts, my personal feeling is the cheapest new RFB I can find is $1300 with most around $1500 up to $1800. Given it’s a niche platform already, there’s not a large market for aftermarket upgrades. And the Handl lower for the SCAR is several hundred dollars? I’m not going to want to buy a $1500 niche rifle to spend another several hundred to use better mags. At least with the SCAR, FN is making new mags even at their overpriced level. I think they’d see more people willing to jump in on the RFB if it was turn-key ready to go with a cheap and easy mag. Kinda like my thoughts on the Stribog, I have no desire to buy into a cheap platform to spend a lot more just to convert it to use a better magazine. For $800 though, I’d buy one, that’s for sure. 
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Sometimes there are good deals on RFB. I scored a used on on Gun broker sometime in 2021 for 800$..But turned around and sold it because I already had one and just wanted data to compare the Gen 1 vs Gen 2 systems. As for mags or needing to update to the SR25..Meh..The SCAR uses a modified FAL mag..While there is a lower you can bolt on for A SCAR for it to use SR25 mags..Most folks dont bother. If the aftermarket wanted to do this for the RFB, they would have by now, there just isnt an interest. I have surplus mags but I've been buying new DSA and metal mags from Keepshooting.com. Both are around 35$. I haven't had any problems with these. I also have several older 30rounders from DSA that folks said had problems. Fortunately that didn't happen with mine. Handguard already has an update from LuckyIrishman. Its what I run. The nice part about the tunable gas system in the RFB is it makes it soft shooting. Its really an advanced feature that usualyl costs money to add to other systems. The RDB is actually a quite fun 556 system. But basically everything that looked cool (6.5grendel RDB and the M43RDB) when poof a long time ago. I was seeing a green RFB being sold for 1,200$, which is tempting. I did see those Keepshooting mags pop up yesterday, with rather favorable reviews. Don't know why those didn't show up on my search the last few times I looked into FAL mags. The Lucky Irishman handguard is definitely what I had in mind if I got an RFB. Oh, I didn't mean to get rid of the tuneable gas, I genuinely prefer adjustable gas, but it just seems that the RFB's is quite fine on adjustment especially when involving ammo changes and suppressing it. I'd be strictly keeping with it suppressed with bog standard FMJ for the most part, so it might not be the biggest issue. |
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke: I was seeing a green RFB being sold for 1,200$, which is tempting. I did see those Keepshooting mags pop up yesterday, with rather favorable reviews. Don't know why those didn't show up on my search the last few times I looked into FAL mags. The Lucky Irishman handguard is definitely what I had in mind if I got an RFB. Oh, I didn't mean to get rid of the tuneable gas, I genuinely prefer adjustable gas, but it just seems that the RFB's is quite fine on adjustment especially when involving ammo changes and suppressing it. I'd be strictly keeping with it suppressed with bog standard FMJ for the most part, so it might not be the biggest issue. I like the tuneable system. Typically tho, I only change the gas when switching bullet weights.. Brass cased Match 168/178 usually work on the same setting. Brass cased factory 150gr is another. Most work on the same setting once set. Steel cased 150 is another. Surplus 150gr is all over the place.. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Handguard already has an update from LuckyIrishman. Its what I run. On the topic of the Lucky handguard, do you think it'll accommodate a direct thread Dead Air Nomad on the 18" barreled RFB? Looks rather long and I'd hate to eventually grab the handguard just to have an issue with fitment. |
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Thought the RFB is using a tilting bolt like the FAL, so the FAL ended up being the most suitable magazine. RDB uses a rotating bolt like an AR, so uses AR mags. Don't think it's just a magwell swap to get to SR-25 mags. |
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke: On the topic of the Lucky handguard, do you think it'll accommodate a direct thread Dead Air Nomad on the 18" barreled RFB? Looks rather long and I'd hate to eventually grab the handguard just to have an issue with fitment. Should fit. Handguard begins almost immediately after that threads end |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Thought the RFB is using a tilting bolt like the FAL, so the FAL ended up being the most suitable magazine. RDB uses a rotating bolt like an AR, so uses AR mags. Don't think it's just a magwell swap to get to SR-25 mags. Well..You wouldn't be able to just swap the magwell..The entire lower would have to change as the SR25 mags are slightly larger than FAL mags..and if ya did that..might as well add a push button mag release up front The bolt could be machined (at the bottom of it) slightly smaller to fit into the magazine like it does on the fal as SR25 patern magazines have larger lips. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Thought the RFB is using a tilting bolt like the FAL, so the FAL ended up being the most suitable magazine. RDB uses a rotating bolt like an AR, so uses AR mags. Don't think it's just a magwell swap to get to SR-25 mags. Yeah, I wouldn't assume it was as simple as a magwell swap, but I would certainly like to see it happen. I'm gonna hold out till sometime around Black Friday before I make a decision. Keep jumping between the RFB, a Galil Ace in .308, an SFAR, or even go for something a bit slower paced and putting together a lightweight folding bolt action. |
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke: Yeah, I wouldn't assume it was as simple as a magwell swap, but I would certainly like to see it happen. I'm gonna hold out till sometime around Black Friday before I make a decision. Keep jumping between the RFB, a Galil Ace in .308, an SFAR, or even go for something a bit slower paced and putting together a lightweight folding bolt action. POF beats the SFAR by a clean pound... |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: POF beats the SFAR by a clean pound... I haven't looked at POF in years. Several of the people I've known that has a rifle from them have been less than thrilled about the performance for the price they paid. It also looks like the Rogue can be found for a little under twice what an SFAR goes for with a bit more proprietary parts. I could also just go with an AR-10 with ROAM receivers if I'm willing to build it, could fairly easily get lightweight with that too. Might just be good to put my .308 plans on the backburner for now as I still really hope the MBAR project eventually comes to the market, and that would suit my desires far better than anything currently available. Plus, I do need a 5.56 rifle since I have a fair bit of ammo and no rifle for it. |
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I had an M17S and unfortunately burned about 500 rounds through it just trying to get it to work right. It would randomly get spent cases stuck in that cavernous receiver opposite the ejection port, and at one point the trigger stopped working and I sent it back in. It flat out wouldn't run with a traditional backpressure can ( I think I ran a TBAC Ultra 7 and AAC Cyclone) because it was way overpressure. I went back and forth with the company owner who was very accommodating and made me a replacement gas plug with holes that were tiny, under .5 mm. Now it would kinda cycle but it was so picky that none of the settings were anywhere near reliable. Couldn't get through a 20 round mag. It would have probably ran ok with a low backpressure like a Hux because it seemed to run ok with no can. The problem is that it has a super short gas system, like close to carbine length on a 16" barrel. It was always going to be super finicky. The other issue that can't really be fixed without a major redesign is that the LOP is something like 16". This is probably ok on something like a Hellion that also has a ridiculous LOP but on a 308 where you have real recoil, you can't really square up to the gun correctly so it pulls hard to the side under recoil. If you've shot precision long range you'll understand the phenomenon. Overall it was a cool gun with an excellent trigger and decently accurate but has a couple major design flaws. If there was a Gen 2 with shorter LOP and longer gas system I would consider it. -Dan |
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Originally Posted By Shackleford_R: i don't have a tavor 7, but if i were to get any of them, it would be that. most companies that can't get military contracts should be avoided. there's usually a pretty good reason why. The reason could be they cant do the volume? |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: The reason could be they cant do the volume? some fun anecdotes about my m17s: the gas plug detent spring stopped working when it got fouled by carbon. it was stuck in a compressed state, which allowed the plug to spin freely. it was impossible to keep the port aligned with the correct gas setting. turned it into a bolt gun. this is a completely separate incident from when the gas plug detent broke entirely. the ability to produce in volume comes with company growth from sales. not to mention that military contracts are often filled by multiple companies manufacturing the same rifle. this is actually why the beretta had a bunch of problems back in the day, some manufacturers got lazy. 
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