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Posted: 12/6/2025 11:03:28 AM EDT
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Hi from the meeting. This info is maybe 30 minutes old, so I didn’t have time to organize these notes. Please let me know if you have questions. Pre-May to transferable continues. More guns are being found and reclassed to transferable. NFATCA is involved with SOF and other groups in lawsuits to remove suppressors, SBRs, and SBSes from the registry. Marking variances now handled by a new division (microphone went out; couldn’t hear name). The new group has 4x the staff working on these compared to old tech branch. But they are backed up due to government shutdown. ATF expects 3-7mm forms on eforms in 2026. They have streamlined the process; timing is entirely FBI response to background check. Compare this to: 2023 average F4 time: 219 days. Number of forms not on PowerPoint. 2024: 46 days. 1.1mm+ forms. 2025: 17 days. 1.4mm+ forms. VITAL DATES! Dec 26: eF1 and eF4 go offline. Dec 31: All tax paid forms on hold get tossed. Any tax money paid refunded. Must start over! Average approval time is 17 days for 2025, so plan accordingly. Jan 01: New F4 goes live. They are expecting a huge flood and potentially a system crash. Two weeks of grace before complaining, please. As if 01/01, individual-to-individual eF4 goes live. Post-sample law letters becoming an eForm. Over 50% of law letters are rejected. The largest problems are not filling in all boxes and the signer not responding to ATF. “Internal control number” is the SOT’s number for their internal reference. Assign by customer to look up their papers. Delayed forms of 60+ days should be withdrawn and started over. SSN isn’t required but the new functionality moves a lot faster with it to speed approvals. Most common errors: Date of birth, bad photo upload / wrong photo upload, non-immigrant exemption missing or expired, failure to complete or upload trust and tribal documents, not hand-signing uploaded documents, and law letters / going out of business letters. And while not a “form error,” no fingerprint cards means no background check and eventual disapproval. Wrong yes/no box checked is now an auto-disapproval; nobody ever sees these forms. They anticipate a ton of “internal” transfers of individual to trust or back. Multiple firearms will be able to go on one eform, which will replicate. SOT renewals going to eForms. Pay by 07/01 or you’ll get penalties and interest. If you make a mistake on a F2 NOT S/N RELATED, email [email protected] S/N errors require withdrawal of F2 and submission of new one. |
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Quoted: Good info, thanks for posting. Will the individual-to-individual eF4 allow transfers to/from trusts? Yes! That’s the reason they expect a low of 3,000,000 forms submitted next year when this year won’t even be half that. Plus some people may pull things from trusts to move them to individual or a corporate entity. |
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Quoted: Yes! That’s the reason they expect a low of 3,000,000 forms submitted next year when this year won’t even be half that. Plus some people may pull things from trusts to move them to individual or a corporate entity. OK, I get it now, "individual" as in not a dealer. Thanks! I'm one of those planning to move a couple items from an old trust to me personally for estate planning. |
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Two other things which made me laugh that I didn’t mention above: 1. There have been problems with store employees changing their names to “Hugh Jass” and similar. When WTF catches this, the customer’s forms get disapproved, the store owner learns they’re locked out of eforms for misuse, and there’s a discussion about the penalties for fraudulently submitting/signing forms. So unless your name really IS “Richard Head,” don’t do that.  2. The submitted photo of the transferee must be of the transferee in a passport-style photo. Do not submit wedding or other group photos. Do not submit photos of the gun. And do NOT submit photos of “bodily parts,” aka dick pics. You will be disapproved and transmitting unsolicited photos of genitals is illegal.  ——— 
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Quoted: I'm most intrigued by multiple firearms per form part, if I have multiple silencers in my SOT's inventory will we be able to enter one Form 4 for all of them or will that only apply for Form 1s? It should be functional for F4. That way, if a customer buys multiple guns, you just fill out things once and then the forms replicate into multiple forms. |
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Thanks for the detailed write up! Quoted: OK, I get it now, "individual" as in not a dealer. Thanks! I'm one of those planning to move a couple items from an old trust to me personally for estate planning. Yep, I’m planning on doing the same for my old trust stuff. It was one of the first things I thought of when the zero dollar transfers were a possibility. I’ve wanted to move them out for a few years but the tax stamps add up. |
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Quoted: When is ATF going to officially announce this to FFLs and the general public? That’s one question for which I have no answer. All I can say is that came from the joint NFATCA-ATF meeting held at 7:00 AM AZ time on Saturday 12/06/2025 at the SAR Show in Phoenix AZ. The dates specifically came from Rebecca Sinclair of the ATF (whose title I missed) who flew in from Martinsburg to give the presentation along with Firearms Branch Head Matt Scheer (pardon if last name isn’t spelled right) and NFA Division Chief Steve Albro. Neither gentleman contradicted or contravened any of Ms. Sinclair’s statements, and both had ample opportunity to do so. |
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Just returned from SAR-West but see “prebans” already posted the relevant information revealed during the ATF industry briefing. He also did so much more completely and yet more concisely than I would have been able to. Thank you prebans! The only thing I will add is that always try to keep in mind that nobody at ATF nor in the industry nor likely the entire enthusiast community was even alive when the NFA was passed in 1934. We are ALL just left to deal with the law as written and work within it (or work to get it changed) as best we can. Right now (and even during the Biden Administration) there is a real effort from ATF to streamline and simplify the NFA process as much as possible while remaining compliant with the law. Why? Well, in simplest terms, making it easier for them to do what is required by law, makes it easier for us to conduct business and enjoy our pursuits. Insults, idle threats and obscenities do NOTHING to ease the burden nor increase the speed of the process. That GS-11 working somewhere would much rather efficiently process thirty-four forms in a day and go home to their family than struggle through only four and drive home hating their life (I made-up all of those numbers). The desire for job satisfaction is pretty universal. I know this is more of a GD issue but thought it worth posting here. I had fun at the show. Saw people I only see once or twice a year. Missed people I will never see again. |
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Quoted: This got me thinking! That’s a great idea! Prebans, thanks for all the info, and the laughs! Quoted: Quoted: OK, I get it now, "individual" as in not a dealer. Thanks! I'm one of those planning to move a couple items from an old trust to me personally for estate planning. This got me thinking! That’s a great idea! Prebans, thanks for all the info, and the laughs! Yeah, I have a couple dozen items on a legacy trust that my lawyer is not quite sure HOW to amend and guarantee it will hold-up to challenges from claims from perceived beneficiaries. Before I get too much older, I would like to X-fer them to myself as an Individual and let them convey to the named heirs in my simple Will, on a form 5. |
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Quoted: Just returned from SAR-West but see “prebans” already posted the relevant information revealed during the ATF industry briefing. He also did so much more completely and yet more concisely than I would have been able to. Thank you prebans! The only thing I will add is that always try to keep in mind that nobody at ATF nor in the industry nor likely the entire enthusiast community was even alive when the NFA was passed in 1934. We are ALL just left to deal with the law as written and work within it (or work to get it changed) as best we can. Right now (and even during the Biden Administration) there is a real effort from ATF to streamline and simplify the NFA process as much as possible while remaining compliant with the law. Why? Well, in simplest terms, making it easier for them to do what is required by law, makes it easier for us to conduct business and enjoy our pursuits. Insults, idle threats and obscenities do NOTHING to ease the burden nor increase the speed of the process. That GS-11 working somewhere would much rather efficiently process thirty-four forms in a day and go home to their family than struggle through only four and drive home hating their life (I made-up all of those numbers). The desire for job satisfaction is pretty universal. I know this is more of a GD issue but thought it worth posting here. I had fun at the show. Saw people I only see once or twice a year. Missed people I will never see again. Well, crap! Now I’m up to two other Arfcommers who were there that I would have loved to meet. Were you set up with tables or just wandering the show? I was generally with Hamilton & Sons (the people with the 75 mm recoilless at their tables). Thank you for the high praise. +1 on the above. There are times the ATF deserves our criticism and worse. There are specific individuals who deserve outright hatred. But I try to give every individual the benefit of the doubt, and even kindness, unless they show they don’t deserve it. That’s really the biggest secret to getting anything done, anywhere. You get more flies with molasses than vinegar. The biggest secret to ATF? Go in expecting inconsistency. Things may be consistent for a period of time, but that’s it. The agency is schizophrenic and its moods change with political winds. They couldn’t get a low level secretary to come to the NFATCA meetings in the Biden years. Now we’ve got three division chiefs with an industry-positive attitude. And three years from now, I know it could be back to nobody again. That’s also why I don’t get worried or upset when a question is answered here one way by poster x and another way by poster y. People assume someone’s making things up or lying. No, both posters probably just asked that same question but to different people and/or at different times, so they got wildly different answers. They’re both replying with truth. The only thing consistent about ATF is inconsistency. You just hope you ask the right person at the right time. And if it’s something major or you’re building a business on that answer, you try to get it in writing and keep the original and copies at your counsel’s office, with trusted friends, uploaded… |
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Spot-on @prebans. I was at Dennis Todd’s tables. Not an employee or representative in any way, more of a minion that works for meals and trigger time  I remember the display at your tables. ETA- next year we should start a thread BEFORE the show to schedule an ARFCOMER meet-up. |
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Quoted: Spot-on @prebans. I was at Dennis Todd’s tables. Not an employee or representative in any way, more of a minion that works for meals and trigger time I remember the display at your tables. ETA- next year we should start a thread BEFORE the show to schedule an ARFCOMER meet-up. In that case, we probably did meet. Just don’t know it! Yeah, next year. Have to rope in @nvgeologist too. |
 My days of not taking you guys seriously have certainly come to a middle. I usually have a SAR thread in the AZ HTF, but I didn't get one done this year. Great write-up, I'm going to seal parts of it for my own that I'll be throwing up on the MOA website and a few social media outlets. I know I've got Ms Sinclair's title in my notes so I'll update you here when I go through those as well. |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/152077/1000002149-3671428.jpg My days of not taking you guys seriously have certainly come to a middle. I usually have a SAR thread in the AZ HTF, but I didn't get one done this year. Great write-up, I'm going to seal parts of it for my own that I'll be throwing up on the MOA website and a few social media outlets. I know I've got Ms Sinclair's title in my notes so I'll update you here when I go through those as well. I’m still laughing that we met but didn’t know it, and over that shirt. I think the old NFA Liat had shirts like that too. Awesome then, and awesome now. |
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Quoted: So, does anyone have an idea when the new paper form 4, with a zero tax selection might be available? I would like to get this filled out to mail Jan 1. ATF is highly discouraging paper submissions. They will take a long time. My understanding is that individuals will be able to use eforms for eform 4 transfers (individual to individual within the same State, individual to Dealer, et.al.) |
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@prebans Any idea on expected eForm 1 wait times starting January 1? I just picked up a HK SP5 pistol that I planned to SBR January 1, but now I'm wondering if I should just pay the $200 to do it now if it's expected to become a several month wait due to an overwhelming number of submissions. |
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Quoted: I just picked up a HK SP5 pistol that I planned to SBR January 1, but now I'm wondering if I should just pay the $200 to do it now if it's expected to become a several month wait due to an overwhelming number of submissions. NICS is the primary factor with current eForms processing delays and that's not changing. If your NICS checks are instant you should be fine, assuming eForms itself hasn't crashed due to a high volume of users. |
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Quoted: NICS is the primary factor with current eForms processing delays and that's not changing. If your NICS checks are instant you should be fine, assuming eForms itself hasn't crashed due to a high volume of users. Is it all automated now if there isn't a NICS issue? If an actual human has to look at each form then I wonder how long it will take to get through the hundreds of thousands if not million that will drop in January. |
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I saw this on eforms last night. Curious what "processed before Jan 1" means. To me, it reads as your form will be approved or disapproved by Dec 31. But how could they rush the NICS check? It either can get done in time, or it won't. So will uncompleted NICS check by then just get auto disapproved? Or does it just mean "Dec 31: All tax paid forms on hold get tossed. Any tax money paid refunded. Must start over!" I just submitted a form 4 yesterday for a can. I'm hoping it gets approved before the debacle. My NICS checks are typically instantaneous and haven't had a form 4 or 1 go longer than single-digit days since early 2024, and there's been quite a few I have submitted 
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Hi. I see a bunch of questions. Not ignoring you or abandoning my thread; I only returned home late last night. This SAR Show was just one part of an 8,500 mile road trip over three weeks. I’ve been gone since before Thanksgiving. There’s some client and tenant drama taking precedence, unloading my truck in -5 degree weather, laundry, my parents furnace kicking out, tending to my dog, etc. So I appreciate your patience and will be back either tonight (Sun) or tomorrow (Mon) to answer to the best of my ability. |
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Quoted: I saw this on eforms last night. Curious what "processed before Jan 1" means. To me, it reads as your form will be approved or disapproved by Dec 31. But how could they rush the NICS check? It either can get done in time, or it won't. So will uncompleted NICS check by then just get auto disapproved? Or does it just mean "Dec 31: All tax paid forms on hold get tossed. Any tax money paid refunded. Must start over!" I just submitted a form 4 yesterday for a can. I'm hoping it gets approved before the debacle. My NICS checks are typically instantaneous and haven't had a form 4 or 1 go longer than single-digit days since early 2024, and there's been quite a few I have submitted https://i.imgur.com/GYhrfy3.jpeg |
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@woodenword @topgunpilot20 @stillgonnasendit @JJL0325 The new Form 1, Form 4, eF1, and eF4 will be available 01/01/2026. They offered no approval timeframes. But consider the following: a. They’ve received 1.4 million forms in 2025 and expect 3.0 - 7.0 million forms in 2026. b. There’s no indication of additional staffing. c. The eForms site, while improved, still isn’t 100% solid. d. They specifically asked for two weeks of understanding/patience/etc. before complaining. So more than double to five times the workload with no additional staffing or resources and the existing system isn’t 100%… Let’s just say that if they took bets on this in Vegas, I’d put down serious money on approvals taking significant additional time, especially in the beginning. Paper forms aren’t going away. If anything, I could see litigation from parties without internet. The second amendment doesn’t except weird guns for people without Internet connections. DDs and MGs are still taxed. During the presentation, the official speaking said that if a F1 or F4 isn’t approved on or before 12/31, you’re getting disapproved, refunded, and then you just start over. The 12/26 deadline for taking forms offline is what’s described in their site. Either way, I’m sending an eF1 AOW registration today. While I’d love to save the $200, I value time over money right now. |
Want to thank the OP for this info, I had no idea eForms would be scrubbed, and thought I would be smart and submit two form 1s after New Year Eve. I will wait and take my chances with the wait after the first now, and will redo them as well. I got three 'amnesty' lowers, should have submitted more....hindsight. |
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One last thought. Yesterday I filed an eF1 for an AOW, paid the $200, and mailed my last set of prints on file. “But if you waited, it’d be free!” Yes, but we’ve already established the likelihood of a long wait. In addition, the government likely shuts down again on January 30, 2026. (Just used the first article which came up on Google; no preference toward or against the source.) Yes, the NFA Branch went back to work the last time. It only takes one judge on the bench in Hawaii or wherever to put a hold on that if some gadfly whines. YMMV, but this is why I’m spending the money and doing it now. |
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