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Garand Loading (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/30/2019 9:15:19 PM EDT
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I've been researching loads for the Garand rifle. It's only been in the last few years that loading manuals have actually published loads specific for the M1. But folks have been loading for this rifle for a very long time despite minimal published data.
So I spent quite a bit of time on the CMP forums, The Firing Line, and others, trying to find out what the old hands at M1 handloading thought. It was interesting. Basically, I gathered that IMR 4895 or H4895 or IMR 4064 are great for 150 grain bullets, and anywhere from 46 to 49 grains of these powders with anything from Winchester's WLR through Federal GM210M primers makes a reasonably accurate Garand round. Now since I want to develop a round that is easy on the shoulder and fairly accurate for both my M1 and my 1903A3, this concept intrigues me. But nowhere do any of the discussions I found with this sort of advice bother to mention anything about whether this kind of load shot anywhere near iron sight settings. So, fellow Garand fans, do I need to get close to M2 Ball velocities to be on target with iron sights? |
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What distance? Typical gun club 200 and under? Pffffft, you can load a lot less powder and still get a garand to function, I want to say 39 grains of IMR 4895 will still operate a garand. You can also load a lighter bullet. I was shooting Speer 125s for awhile for club milsurp shoots. |
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Well you can index a Garand rear sight to match whatever range you want, so no issue there. But mine is pretty spot on using the 2,3,4,5 marks on the elevation drum if I keep my loads around 2600-2700 fps, so yeah, M2 Ball spec I guess. Using IMR 4064, pretty much anyone on the CMP forums will tell you 46.5 grains under a 168 grain bullet is the ticket. I use CCI #200 primers, Winchester WLR primers are my secondary. |
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Originally Posted By mechtaco04:
Well you can index a Garand rear sight to match whatever range you want, so no issue there. But mine is pretty spot on using the 2,3,4,5 marks on the elevation drum if I keep my loads around 2600-2700 fps, so yeah, M2 Ball spec I guess. Using IMR 4064, pretty much anyone on the CMP forums will tell you 46.5 grains under a 168 grain bullet is the ticket. I use CCI #200 primers, Winchester WLR primers are my secondary. Only difference is I use CCI 34 primers. |
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Garand is such a bulky rifle. Recoil with any ammo is tolerable even for recoil sensitive folks like me. I always use a shoulder pad though.
46 gr Varget, M34 primer, 168 gr Nosler CC is my load of choice but I also have some steel target loads using surplus H335. |
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Originally Posted By AeroE:
Nope. Work out come ups for your ammunition, which most of us would do for "standard" loads. |
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http://www.provenreloads-handloads.com/articles/2016/10/22/30-06-springfield-part-2-service-rifle-loads
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL316%20Partial.pdf http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=65824 http://radomski.us/njhp/ http://web.archive.org/web/20000620055732/home.att.net/~Masterpo/M1load.htm https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Reloading-recipes-specific-to-the-Garand/6-481859/ Some nightstand reading... Remember, if you start playing around with other people’s loads for bullets above 168 grains, they may fail to mention they might be using an adjustable gas plug to reduce the loads on the op rod. |
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol:
46.0 grains of IMR-4895 or H4895 with 168 grain SMK's was a standard match load for Garands for decades. The powders are close but not interchangeable. H4895 velocities are a bit higher. |
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Originally Posted By Keystone10mm:
This load is pretty accurate in every Garand I’ve ever used it in. The powders are close but not interchangeable. H4895 velocities are a bit higher. Originally Posted By Keystone10mm:
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:
46.0 grains of IMR-4895 or H4895 with 168 grain SMK's was a standard match load for Garands for decades. The powders are close but not interchangeable. H4895 velocities are a bit higher. Iirc I have only used three powders in my garands, IMR 4064, IMR 4895 and H4895. I will always keep IMR 4064 around because it is always an easy to work up powder for some reason. I have settled on H4895 and will use up my IMR 4895 and consolidate with the H version. I still am working an 8 lb jug of IMR 4895 though. The M1A I have used all sorts of powder though the above three, Varget, 844, W748, BLC2, RL15. RL15 is a solid .308 powder in my guns. |
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47-48gr IMR4895 with a 150gr
Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel: The 4064 recoil impulse seemed a bit stiffer for the same velocity than IMR 4895. It was generally a bit tighter grouping with IMR 4064 though. Iirc I have only used three powders in my garands, IMR 4064, IMR 4895 and H4895. I will always keep IMR 4064 around because it is always an easy to work up order for some reason. I have settled on H4895 and will use up my IMR 4895 and consolidate with the H version. I still am working an 8 lb jug of IMR 4895 though. The M1A I have used all sorts of powder though the above three, Varget, 844, W748, BLC2, RL15. RL15 is a solid .308 powder in my guns. |
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Yes, in theory you do need to be around M2 Ball velocities to hope to match up the trajectory to elevation settings. My advice: -after 2-300yds, regardless of using M2 ball, the settings start to drift away from another- they aren't a precise match. SO: Find an accurate load for you, what ever that means to you. Shoot it out as far as you want, record the setting and be done. If those come ups match the drum, Great! If they don't write them down. You need to confirm your zero's regardless to whatever distance you plan on shooting anyways. Don't overthink this...…. |
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I always wrote the come ups on the leather 1907 sling. The vast majority of my M1 loading, and my families has been with 4895 or Varget. They're nice, because they're pretty close to universal bottle necked rifle powders. There is zero point in using heavy bullets for less than 300yds. Load 110-125s, cast bullets, etc. Surplus 147gr M80 bullets suck other than for plinking, I definitely wore out a M1 barrel early with them, and they don't shoot for shit compared to virtually any other choice. |
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Originally Posted By djryan13:
Garand is such a bulky rifle. Recoil with any ammo is tolerable even for recoil sensitive folks like me. I always use a shoulder pad though. 46 gr Varget, M34 primer, 168 gr Nosler CC is my load of choice but I also have some steel target loads using surplus H335. |
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Since 46 grains of H4895 is close to a starting load for 150 grain bullets in Hornady’s manual (for Service Rifle loads), I felt it was what I might think of as a reasonable starting point. I never even considered just loading up a bunch of rounds with X4895 or 4064 and calling it done. Some sources actually give velocities for those starting loads, even down to around 43 grains IIRC, with velocities (again if memory serves) not too much below 2400 FPS. Since M2 Ball is spec’d to go around 2700, it doesn’t seem to be a huge challenge to get close to that without pushing. I’m not looking for a bullseye-quality load at the moment, just a “close enough to M2 Ball” load for practice, both with the Garand and ‘03A3, and with the process of loading such large cartridges. The 168 grain, target-quality bullet loads will be another project. Since I have a pound of H4895 I’m going to start with that, and the WLR primers I have, and 150 grain FMJs. I also found a fascinating discussion of why those velocity specs come with “at 78 feet”. The old chronographs needed a long space between the start and stop screens because the electronics were pretty primitive. The screens were set at 3’ and 153’, so the mid point was 78 feet from the muzzle. Estimates of actual muzzle velocity add somewhere between 65-70 FPS. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Since 46 grains of H4895 is close to a starting load for 150 grain bullets in Hornady’s manual (for Service Rifle loads), I felt it was what I might think of as a reasonable starting point. I never even considered just loading up a bunch of rounds with X4895 or 4064 and calling it done. Some sources actually give velocities for those starting loads, even down to around 43 grains IIRC, with velocities (again if memory serves) not too much below 2400 FPS. Since M2 Ball is spec’d to go around 2700, it doesn’t seem to be a huge challenge to get close to that without pushing. I’m not looking for a bullseye-quality load at the moment, just a “close enough to M2 Ball” load for practice, both with the Garand and ‘03A3, and with the process of loading such large cartridges. The 168 grain, target-quality bullet loads will be another project. Since I have a pound of H4895 I’m going to start with that, and the WLR primers I have, and 150 grain FMJs. I also found a fascinating discussion of why those velocity specs come with “at 78 feet”. The old chronographs needed a long space between the start and stop screens because the electronics were pretty primitive. The screens were set at 3’ and 153’, so the mid point was 78 feet from the muzzle. Estimates of actual muzzle velocity add somewhere between 65-70 FPS. 
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Originally Posted By mechtaco04:
For my replica M2 ball load, I use a Hornady Interlock Softpoint 150gr item number #3031. The flat base was a big improvement over the boat tail FMJ's. Also, I get a box for free any time I buy a set of Hornady dies because of their rebate program. |
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I have some of those Hornady 3031s on the shelf. They've been run in 300 Blackout and worked well. I'll be sure to load some up once I get everything sorted out.
Anyone have experience with Speer's #2023 SP flat-base 150 grain bullet? they look to be similar to Hornady's bullet and may be in stock when Hornady's aren't. Do I have to pay attention to "military brass versus commercial brass" with .30-06? I've seen conflicting information that makes me wonder which direction some folks have gotten their information from. Edit to add question. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I have some of those Hornady 3031s on the shelf. They've been run in 300 Blackout and worked well. I'll be sure to load some up once I get everything sorted out. Anyone have experience with Speer's #2023 SP flat-base 150 grain bullet? they look to be similar to Hornady's bullet and may be in stock when Hornady's aren't. Do I have to pay attention to "military brass versus commercial brass" with .30-06? I've seen conflicting information that makes me wonder which direction some folks have gotten their information from. Edit to add question. |
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Old NRA info.
Good stuff. also - http://web.archive.org/web/20000620055732/home.att.net/~Masterpo/M1load.htm 
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I have set the toggle for this thread, as it seems like this topic comes up every couple of months.
So set your bookmarks. OP can come to this forum and click on MY TOPICS and this thread will be in the list. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I have some of those Hornady 3031s on the shelf. They've been run in 300 Blackout and worked well. I'll be sure to load some up once I get everything sorted out. Anyone have experience with Speer's #2023 SP flat-base 150 grain bullet? they look to be similar to Hornady's bullet and may be in stock when Hornady's aren't. Do I have to pay attention to "military brass versus commercial brass" with .30-06? I've seen conflicting information that makes me wonder which direction some folks have gotten their information from. Edit to add question. |
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Originally Posted By mechtaco04:
I would plan on only using military brass. My M1 beats up commercial brass real bad, so much so that after 2-3 firings its going in the trash. Ive got some HXP cases on 7-8 reloads with none split yet. Originally Posted By mechtaco04:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I have some of those Hornady 3031s on the shelf. They've been run in 300 Blackout and worked well. I'll be sure to load some up once I get everything sorted out. Anyone have experience with Speer's #2023 SP flat-base 150 grain bullet? they look to be similar to Hornady's bullet and may be in stock when Hornady's aren't. Do I have to pay attention to "military brass versus commercial brass" with .30-06? I've seen conflicting information that makes me wonder which direction some folks have gotten their information from. Edit to add question. |
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I dug into the specification data, how they measured velocity, and so on. The BC for the M2 bullet is listed variously from about 0.350 to about 0.405. Even with that wide variation, ballistics calculators (like CleverInsite) show a calculated muzzle velocity of pretty darn close to 2800 FPS given the GI spec of 2740 “at 78 feet”.
I think this is important to verifying a hand load is “close to” M2 Ball for a shooter that has a modern chronograph that is set more like 10 feet from the muzzle rather than 3 to 150 feet away. My next task with this project is sorting cases based on how goobered up the rims are. Some of the brass I went through looks like it went through a garbage disposal, and I don’t know if I’ll try to clean up those rims or just recycle them... I have plenty of brass, just not a huge number of the same headstamps, so I’m thinking about consistency. |
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With the plan to share ammo across two rifles, the first thing I would do is measure the headspace of each to ensure your sized cases will fit either. If I were doing it again, I would pick H4895 as the powder, as you have done. Its insensitivity to temperature is the reason enough and it performs just as well as IMR4895 in all other respects, IME. I use the CCI MIL-SPEC primers for my Garands. But any primer will work just fine. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I dug into the specification data, how they measured velocity, and so on. The BC for the M2 bullet is listed variously from about 0.350 to about 0.405. Even with that wide variation, ballistics calculators (like CleverInsite) show a calculated muzzle velocity of pretty darn close to 2800 FPS given the GI spec of 2740 “at 78 feet”. I think this is important to verifying a hand load is “close to” M2 Ball for a shooter that has a modern chronograph that is set more like 10 feet from the muzzle rather than 3 to 150 feet away. My next task with this project is sorting cases based on how goobered up the rims are. Some of the brass I went through looks like it went through a garbage disposal, and I don’t know if I’ll try to clean up those rims or just recycle them... I have plenty of brass, just not a huge number of the same headstamps, so I’m thinking about consistency. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
With the plan to share ammo across two rifles, the first thing I would do is measure the headspace of each to ensure your sized cases will fit either. If I were doing it again, I would pick H4895 as the powder, as you have done. Its insensitivity to temperature is the reason enough and it performs just as well as IMR4895 in all other respects, IME. I use the CCI MIL-SPEC primers for my Garands. But any primer will work just fine. I have Clymer .30-06 headspace gauges. Since I was "rehabbing" the 03A3, I needed to verify it was safe. Since then, I have measured the shoulder position from the first 20 rounds (GI-type Korean M2) I fired in it, and recorded that data. I have not (yet) checked that with my Garand. I have CCI #35 primers, as well as a few other types (WLR, S&B, Wolf). I had expected to start out with the #35s and then test the rifle with the other types - carefully. From what I've read, if you take two otherwise identical Garands, one might be immune to slam fire while the other might be the opposite. For what it's worth, I was ready to tear down my first batch of .30 Carbine if my gun slammed with WSR primers, but there were no issues, so I've stuck with the WSRs. |
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I did a LOT of measuring this afternoon to see if there was a particular trend for “heavier military brass compared to commercial brass”, and my results surprised me. I took 10-case samples of an Imperial butt-load of different .30-06 head stamps and weighed them. All the brass was deprimed and wet tumbled, and the military (crimped) brass had intact crimps, proving that they were once fired. I weighed the cases with my Gem Pro 250, no florescent lighting or cell phones near by, The most consistent case weights of all the various brands/head stamps I had access to were Korean PS 75 cases. They varied over a range of 195.82 to 197.80 grains; a range of less than 2 grains. KA brass, on the other hand (still Korean military) varied quite a bit more: 192.14 to 197.22 for a range of slightly more than 5 grains. I had these Korean cases, RP and FC, some LC 67, HXP 71 and 78, and two flavors of Prvi (Cyrillic and Roman marked). Most headstamps had a range of about 5+ grains, except the HXP 71 stuff: it varied by over 9 grains in that 10 case sample, and the NNY Prvi cases varied by 9.9 grains! (The PPU stuff had a range of less than 5.) The FC cases were by far the heaviest, averaging 201.17 grains, and the NNY was lightest, with an average of 183.294 grains. USGI LC cases were not significantly different in weight from any of the others (except the FC), and the mode (the most common weight) for all of these cases was 196.42 grains. I - so far - conclude that there isn’t a substantial difference between military and commercial .30-‘06 brass weights, which implies that these cases’ volumes aren’t substantially different. |
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It is always good to inspect and play it safe and also to prevent wasting effort on poor brass.
Unless you are going past 300 yards, you can get away with lots of warts without heavy penalties in the pattern. Once you go past the 300 yard line, the brass needs to be worth the effort, so keep your best for those occasions and don't fuss too much on the short line loads. You get sighters for most matches, so those minor shifts that are due to brass designs are nothing you can't handle. |
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Thanks djryan and RegionRat. I'm considering both quantity and "warts" in selecting the brass I'm going to start with. Most of my PS brass is in good shape. The HXP, not so much. And I'm looking for sources of more once-fired brass. Interestingly, where Etsy used to only have a few "bullet cases for jewelry" vendors, now there are actual brass companies (with a presence other than on Etsy) selling once-fired, including .30-06 brass.
I have 3 full spam cans of HXP on Garand clips, and most of a fourth one to play with. I hope to get to the range this week and run some HXP and PS through both the 03A3 and the M1 so I can assess how each rifle handles (and perhaps "mangles") the brass. I also cleaned my brand new Hornady .30-06 dies, and ordered a Lee FCD as well. I'm looking forward to actually putting together some test loads soon. |
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I got to the range today and ran some HXP and PS (and commercial RP) through both my '03A3 and my Garand. The only difference I noticed was that the PS, which I had loaded onto clips myself, seemed to eject half to the left and half to the right. The Springfield was pretty nice to shoot, but the Garand was smoother, obviously because of the gas system.
I didn't see a lot of chewed up rims on my brass. Since the HXP and PS were both M2 loads, I'm concluding that neither rifle is likely to chew rims. That's good news. Next comes brass processing. My LnL bushings should be here on Saturday, so I can start in earnest then. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I got to the range today and ran some HXP and PS (and commercial RP) through both my '03A3 and my Garand. The only difference I noticed was that the PS, which I had loaded onto clips myself, seemed to eject half to the left and half to the right. The Springfield was pretty nice to shoot, but the Garand was smoother, obviously because of the gas system. I didn't see a lot of chewed up rims on my brass. Since the HXP and PS were both M2 loads, I'm concluding that neither rifle is likely to chew rims. That's good news. Next comes brass processing. My LnL bushings should be here on Saturday, so I can start in earnest then. 
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I got to the range today and ran some HXP and PS (and commercial RP) through both my '03A3 and my Garand. The only difference I noticed was that the PS, which I had loaded onto clips myself, seemed to eject half to the left and half to the right. The Springfield was pretty nice to shoot, but the Garand was smoother, obviously because of the gas system. I didn't see a lot of chewed up rims on my brass. Since the HXP and PS were both M2 loads, I'm concluding that neither rifle is likely to chew rims. That's good news. Next comes brass processing. My LnL bushings should be here on Saturday, so I can start in earnest then. |
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Thanks for the info, Jeremy. It will be useful as I develop my loads.
I measured cases fired in my Garand, and put all of that data, as well as the data from my Springfield cases, into a nice big spreadsheet. It was encouraging. Basically, I think the data says that I can size my cases to push the shoulders back just a bit and still have them chamber fine in both rifles. This assumes I'll get the case diameters down correctly, of course. And it is also encouraging in that "common wisdom" is to essentially size the crap out of the cases so they'll chamber reliably in the Garand, and "be satisfied with short case life." That's not something I'm interested in, given the effort I am putting into these cases. Here's the data: SAAMI cartridge headspace specs: 2.0457 to 2.0527". SAAMI chamber headspace specs: 2.0487 to 2.0587". 20 PS-marked cases fired through my '03A3's chamber averaged a shoulder datum (with the Hornady 0.375 comparator insert) of 2.0406". 24 HXP cases from my Garand averaged 2.0407", and 8 PS cases averaged 2.0445". The SDs for all of these numbers were pretty low; just over 0.001 for the PS cases in the '03A3 and about 0.0018 for the HXP cases in the Garand. The PS cases fired in the Garand had and extremely low min and extremely high max (2.0370 and 2.0690), which made the SD for that brass much higher: 0.0100. Anyway, I'm farther along than I had expected on this front. Since the numbers are so close for both rifles, I won't have to worry about which one I'm sizing cases for. Tomorrow my Lee FCD and a bunch of Hornady LnL Bushings will arrive. I'll be doing a lot of decrimping before I start sizing, but I think I'll be ready to make some cartridges pretty soon... |
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I got started decrimping brass this evening. I started out with the HXP brass, since it only has three small stab crimps - no matter what year it is marked.
I used Hornady's primer pocket reamer (Large) and checked for fit with Ballistic Tools' large pocket crimp gauge. The stuff I fired last week almost didn't need any treatment. It had such minimal crimps that just a twist of the Hornady reamer and the crimps were completely gone. Some other HXP, was a different story. Years like 71 and 78 took quite a bit of reaming, while some others only took a little. I also gauged the PS I fired last week. It too seemed to be almost crimp-free. I was very careful not to mix up my brass - this stuff was indeed once fired. I'm puzzled but I'll take the reduced work required. |
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I did case prep on my military brass. It was more of a chore than I had expected it to be.
LC cases were a relative breeze. My Dillon Super Swage only required one setting and it made quick work of those 60 cases. PS cases were close to as easy. There were a few (5 or 6) of the 120 or so cases with pockets that refused to gauge OK, and that I had to ream. It was like their pockets were undersized, but with just those few, I didn’t sweat too much over them. Then there were the KA cases. I have 50 of these buggers. They simply would not swage, period. Not only did I have to ream every one, but often I had to swage them as much as I could before the reamer would start in the pocket. They seemed to have very undersized pockets, and frequently their flash holes were off center. I still have a bunch of WWII-era brass (TW, SL, and a few others marks) to take care of, but they’ll wait. |
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"Here's the data:
SAAMI cartridge headspace specs: 2.0457 to 2.0527". SAAMI chamber headspace specs: 2.0487 to 2.0587". 20 PS-marked cases fired through my '03A3's chamber averaged a shoulder datum (with the Hornady 0.375 comparator insert) of 2.0406". 24 HXP cases from my Garand averaged 2.0407", and 8 PS cases averaged 2.0445". " Will a fired case easily rechamber? The "flaw" in our collective logic when using these gages is that the brass size represents the chamber size. This is rarely true, it is almost always smaller. IME, it takes about 3 firings for the brass to reach its final size in your chamber and even then it is likely smaller than the chamber - close but smaller. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
"Here's the data: SAAMI cartridge headspace specs: 2.0457 to 2.0527". SAAMI chamber headspace specs: 2.0487 to 2.0587". 20 PS-marked cases fired through my '03A3's chamber averaged a shoulder datum (with the Hornady 0.375 comparator insert) of 2.0406". 24 HXP cases from my Garand averaged 2.0407", and 8 PS cases averaged 2.0445". " Will a fired case easily rechamber? The "flaw" in our collective logic when using these gages is that the brass size represents the chamber size. This is rarely true, it is almost always smaller. IME, it takes about 3 firings for the brass to reach its final size in your chamber and even then it is likely smaller than the chamber - close but smaller. As I mentioned earlier, I have checked the chamber headspace on the Springfield, and it easily passed the GO and NO GO gauges. What I don't recall is just how "easy" that "easy pass" on the GO gauge was. I just wanted to make sure I was not dealing with an unsafe gun. And now I'm not planning on bumping shoulders back by microscopic amounts. I merely want to avoid overworking my brass - and my shoulder while I run the press. I will get at this soon, since I'm close to the point where I'll start sizing brass, and I'll post what I find. |
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
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Heinlein
NRA Life Member
Glock Certified Armorer
Certified AR15 Armorer
Certified M1911 Armorer
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I have found 44.5g of IMR-4895 pushing 168g MidwayUSA "factory seconds" with an adjustable gas plug to be the ticket. Tuned that down so it runs well and flips brass about 3' at the 4:00 position making recovery easy.
I can shoot 100 rounds of it easy. Between that and the weight of the rifle, it is quite pleasant. |
If you cannot see the irony in having a gun ban enforced by men with guns, then you fail to understand why the Second Amendment was written in the first place.
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
Will a fired case easily rechamber? This makes me think the cases did pretty much form to the chambers, but since they're all once fired, I could be wrong. |
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
NRA Life Member
Glock Certified Armorer
Certified AR15 Armorer
Certified M1911 Armorer
Heinlein
NRA Life Member
Glock Certified Armorer
Certified AR15 Armorer
Certified M1911 Armorer
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Question: with flat-based bullets, should I consider using a Lyman M-die? Just need to chamfer the mouth. I just use my M dies for cast loads. |
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
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Thanks. I figured as much, but I wanted confirmation.
Since my Giraud trimmer chamfers as it trims, I am probably set. |
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
NRA Life Member
Glock Certified Armorer
Certified AR15 Armorer
Certified M1911 Armorer
Heinlein
NRA Life Member
Glock Certified Armorer
Certified AR15 Armorer
Certified M1911 Armorer
Garand Loading (Page 1 of 2)
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