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Posted: 6/28/2023 12:22:45 PM EDT
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I've had large fireproof safes for around 30 years, and always followed the rule of bolting them to concrete floors and keeping my valuables in them. When I moved to Sanibel Island a decade ago I had two Liberty Fatboys installed on my lowest level. I set up my reloading bench and stored about 100,000 rounds of ammo there. I moved our passports, birth certificates, family photos and everything else of value to those safes as we felt they were the safest place. We moved our boat to Fort Lauderdale in the summer of 2022 to have work done, and traveled to Lauderdale in September of 2022 to bring our boat back to our house in Sanibel. There was a small storm off Africa, and we didn't think much of it at the time. We locked the doors to the house and drove away with dirty dishes in the sink and were expecting to come back in a few days. I spent a few days in Lauderdale and had a crew lined up to run with me through the Keys and up the west coast. As the storm got closer it grew and was forecasted to come up the east coast, so we felt good about our choice to move west. It was eventually named hurricane Ian. The morning we were supposed to depart I got up and started engines and generators and decided to check weather one last time - and the storm track had moved to the west coast. I powered down the engines and called off the crew, and we ended up riding out hurricane Ian in Fort Lauderdale a few days later - watching the storm destroy our house on Sanibel on our marine radar. Here's the eye about to cross over our house in Sanibel.  The challenge is that because the Sanibel causeway was knocked down, we were not able to return for over a month. During that month everything that flooded sat and "stewed." In our case our safes got between 4' and 4.5' of saltwater in them, and they never really drained. What was left was unrecognizable. Every family photo we ever had (two generations worth) were destroyed. Every firearm in the safe was destroyed. Firearm magazines were unrecognizable. Every round of ammunition stored in that room that wasn't stored in a sealed USGI can was destroyed. Once we were able to return to the house I used sledgehammers and axes to tear the entire lower level out and carried everything out in wheelbarrows. Since my safes were old school dial locks (not electronic) I was able to open them. The interior was waterlogged and moldy and not salvageable. It really left me a bit bitter to think about how I went to the trouble to install great safes into concrete and store valuables there only to have them destroyed by a flood. I know it's obvious in hindsight, but everyone I talked to about it afterwards said "I never would have thought of that!" I don't post this story to get any pity about the hurricane or anything like that. I share because of the lessons learned. First, I left my house thinking I'd be right back. It's amazing how often we do that, but that one time gets you.... Second (and probably most important for this forum) - I never even considered installing significant safes on upper floors, and that was a mistake given my AO. We fled from many storms. We have annual storm surge alarms that never materialized. After a decade of disrupting our lives we learned not to trust the government warnings and grew complacent. An important note is that safes typically use drywall for fire purposes. When drywall gets wet it turns bad quickly. The way safes are fireproofed actually makes them worse than a metal box when they get wet, and the safe cannot be saved due to this. I had a small safe built into the floor of my office. It went underwater by 1" and was destroyed. I used lightweight safes on the third story (in my bedroom closet) to hold a few rifles, and they survived unscathed. I wish I had thought to put more gear up high. Third, I had purchased a bunch of the plastic ammo boxes (often shared here as a good option to USGI cans) since they were watertight and "just as good." In spite of their advertisements that they are watertight and have seals, they are NOT waterproof when underwater. The pressure collapses the sides and compromises the seals. They do a great job of keeping water inside them, though, once they're compromised  . I wanted my mistakes to help others avoid such mistakes, and hope this post helps! My safes after removing my gear. Notice the collapsing shelves and sides. The drywall in the sides has turned to goo.  My garage where we staged debris. You can see the waterline on the wall.  |
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First.... Jesus Christ! Second: I did not realize it about safes or the ammo cans. Third: What a fantastic well written and informative thread. I sincerely appreciate it. |
"Whoever makes himself great will be made humble. Whoever makes himself humble will be made great." -Jesus
"if it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth" - Linus from Charlie Brown
"if it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth" - Linus from Charlie Brown
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Great post and you are right, I wouldn’t have thought about that. I wonder if having some flex seal tape on hand would be a good idea for those of us that already have a safe and can’t mitigate the issue you discussed. Not a perfect solution but workable i suppose |
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I just installed a new "safe" in my basement and upon close inspection of it I came to that realization. I already put some documents and small valuables in waterproof containers. I guess I'm just going to have to becognizant that I can't leave shit in there for long if the basement floods. My biggest concern is if there is a fire, the basement will get flooded from putting the fire out and ruin everything anyway. |
“I was always willing to be reasonable until I had to be unreasonable”
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Originally Posted By chaas67: Great post and you are right, I wouldn’t have thought about that. I wonder if having some flex seal tape on hand would be a good idea for those of us that already have a safe and can’t mitigate the issue you discussed. Not a perfect solution but workable i suppose If you KNOW that there are NO other ingress points (consider that the holes many have, for anchoring to the floor, will generally allow water ingress unless properly sealed), one option might be something like this, for an emergency evac where you don't have time to empty the safe Permatex 1-minute RTV Pressurized can (i.e. doesn't need a caulk gun etc.). Keep it in/near the safe. If you need it, Lock the safe. RTV the door. No idea how long it would hold, but it's been used for engine water pumps, oil pans etc. that hold for the life of the part/car. *** Actually, the proper/ideal application procedure would be - Open the safe door - apply bead all the way around the door - close the door and lock the safe. If the door is the only ingress point, this should make the safe waterproof. You'll just have to deal with the fact that you've more or less glued the door shut. A propane torch should be able to heat the RTV enough to help with opening it. |
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Originally Posted By ryandushku: I just installed a new "safe" in my basement and upon close inspection of it I came to that realization. I already put some documents and small valuables in waterproof containers. I guess I'm just going to have to becognizant that I can't leave shit in there for long if the basement floods. My biggest concern is if there is a fire, the basement will get flooded from putting the fire out and ruin everything anyway. As another poster commented, the heat should cause the gasket to swell and ‘hopefully’ give you some protection from the water used to douse the fire. In the event of a flood though you don’t have the heat to trigger the reaction. At least hopefully because otherwise it’s a soup sandwich all the way around. |
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Originally Posted By twoisone: Wow. Sorry all that happened to you. I’m paranoid about photos. I’ve scanned everything including the stuff in albums. It’s all backed up offsite. My safe will be moving to the second floor in the new house. Thank you. My understanding is that the problem with mounting a safe on the second floor is that a fire or other event is likely to make it drop a story - which will likely compromise the structure and fireproof nature of the safe. You're also typically unable to bolt the same to something solid - making it easy to tip over. They also typically require some additional framing (which a concrete slab has by default). My understanding is that the "time with tools" rating is highly dependent on your ability to get the safe onto it's back and either pry open the door or grind the corners, and that time is dramatically reduced by mounting on a wooden structure. In short, mounting a large safe on a second story (or higher) is generally a bad idea from a security or fire perspective. The only thing it buys you is either convenience or flood protection. It feels like with many things in real life - the answer is "it depends." 
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Thank you for sharing your story. I've got a couple of those plastic ammo cans and I was curious on how the compared to USGI cans. Guss I won't be buying anymore. I do need to buy a fireproof document holder of some sort for photos and paperwork. |
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Originally Posted By Vague: Sorry for the loss of all of your history and photographs. Thank you. We lost our house and all of our belongings. We were surrounded by people that had it much worse than us, though, and were very fortunate. My wife was a rock through it all, but she broke a little when we pulled our photo albums out of the safes. Like most, the lives of our parents and our children mean everything to us, and it was tough to see those memories destroyed. Again, I only share so that others may learn. I never considered flooding when placing safes. |
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Originally Posted By chaas67: As another poster commented, the heat should cause the gasket to swell and 'hopefully' give you some protection from the water used to douse the fire. In the event of a flood though you don't have the heat to trigger the reaction. At least hopefully because otherwise it's a soup sandwich all the way around. |
“I was always willing to be reasonable until I had to be unreasonable”
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Originally Posted By BlackFox: Thank you. My understanding is that the problem with mounting a safe on the second floor is that a fire or other event is likely to make it drop a story - which will likely compromise the structure and fireproof nature of the safe. You're also typically unable to bolt the same to something solid - making it easy to tip over. They also typically require some additional framing (which a concrete slab has by default). My understanding is that the "time with tools" rating is highly dependent on your ability to get the safe onto it's back and either pry open the door or grind the corners, and that time is dramatically reduced by mounting on a wooden structure. In short, mounting a large safe on a second story (or higher) is generally a bad idea from a security or fire perspective. The only thing it buys you is either convenience or flood protection. It feels like with many things in real life - the answer is "it depends." You are 100% correct in all of that. I have accepted that fire will claim what’s in the safe and so it is insured. The house will of course have an alarm, cameras, and other layers of security to keep people away from the safe. It will be assembled in a closet right above a load bearing wall and a triple lam beam spanning the garage. I suppose I could reinforce the door to buy more time. The only other option for placement is the workshop which has a half glass door and garage door facing the street as well as all the tools required to break into it. Also, the water heater and the water filtration system are in there. 
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Get both is the answer.
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