Hey guys, this isn't my first post about the Ferfrans bolt carrier I was really interested in them several years ago before the Navy sent me somewhere that I couldn't enjoy my M16. Tonight however, I was surfing and came upon Rally Point Tactical selling the Ferfrans bolt carrier group for $260.00.

I'm about to order one to try out but before I do I wanted to ask if anyone else has tried one? Anyone felt with Rally Point Tactical?

Rally Point Tactical Ferfrans BCG w/ rate reduction system

I placed my order for one on Sept 13th and still dont have it yet.  Got an automated email on the 18th saying order was 'complete'...but no tracking info.
Emailed them and was told that the factory normally sends tracking direct to customers and they make sure of that and it should be another day or two.  That was a week ago.  Still nothing.  I emailed them again asking for an update and now 6 days with no response to my email.

I was really excited to see these available.  I was hoping to try it out on some various uppers but I actually already have most configurations running at RoFs I like including my Shrike.  
12.5" M855 630 RPM 16" barrel M855 693 RPM16" barrel M193 661 RPM

I was thinking if it works well to modify a CMMG 9mm Guard carrier for an identical reciprocating weight trip.
Was thinking about modding this one: https://www.cmmginc.com/product/action-tuning-kit-mkg/
But also thinking that material probably cant take the shock and will break.

Surefire has a rate reducing BCG now as well. You have to swap out the buffer and spring but seems to be of high quality and can be purchased directly from surefire so you can avoid the whole "its in stock....just kidding! You are actually on a back ordered list that's 6 months long but now we have your money so you are screwed!".

I'm personally not onboard the Surefire BCG.  Extending the stroke is great but not so good for the bolt catch on the last round....would be good on something like the Shrike but the Shrike has a proprietary carrier...
I do like the spring loaded weight and geometry change of the cam pin.
However, I think the Ferfrans with the trip on the weight itself will be a slower cyclic rate but then I am concerned about breakage....but it's a toy....

I believe you could use the surefire carrier with a standard buffer to limit the over-travel (and not batter the LRBHO) and still take advantage of the spring loaded weight and cam pin geo change.

Good point....I think I'll see if this Ferfans BCG ever shows up...

Man that is disheartening. I was hoping they would have shipped and others would have experience with them. I may go ahead and place an order with the understanding that it'll show up when it shows up...

The surefire bolt carrier looks great and I'll likely buy one too, but it's a different concept. I think the delayed sear trip on the Ferfrans BCG would cause more reduction. That being said, maybe a modified SF bolt carrier that has a FF style trip would be the best of both world.

I'm excited to start playing with these systems and like amphibian I'd love to incorporate the delayed trip into my 9mm guard or shrike.

Left them a VM tuesday to call me and no response.
Sent them another email today....may have to contact my CC company if they keep ignoring me.

I was thinking this would be a good candidate for a FF style trip....
The LWRC DI bolt is machined from a solid piece so no bolts.  So you could use like an A5 tube and carbine buffer with the appropriate spacers to increase travel.
Then machine the bottom for a FF style trip.  Wouldn't get the secret sauce cam pin path as the SF but not sure I'm sold on that either since RoF will definitely go down with the FF style trip.

Just an FYI...I think I got things squared away with RP Tactical and I'm supposed to receive my FerFrans BCG on Monday.
I'll definitely be doing some RoF testing with it.

What barrel length you running it in?

Various.  Will most likely use a MK18 for a baseline config.  .070 gas port, M855, standard spring and H2 buffer.  Unsuppressed.
Then suppressed w/ .070" gas port.
Suppressed again w/ .049" gas port.

But my favorite config is a 12.5 mid, with A5 tube, 556 Tubb flat wire spring and 9mm Blitzkrieg/Kynshot Hydraulic buffer (same length compressed as an A5 buffer).  I think I'm already in the 600's with that setup but need to clock it again.

With a suppressed (556 Saker),  MK18 upper and .049 gas port and the buffer configuration above, I'm already getting 671 RPM w/ M855
Same setup, unsuppressed 716 RPM.
Looking forward to seeing how much RoF will drop with the Ferfrans.

I saw you mention to do a search for some of your vids on youtube...I think I've seen every Youtube vid I could find on the Ferfrans....should I search for Stukas87 with Ferfrans to see yours specifically?  Most vids are from folks in CA or the Phillipines.

Also regarding not breaking the bolt catch is unfounded from the other thread, I personally have never broken a bolt catch either...  I just see all these people saying they have broken them with straight blowback 9mm configs where they are running really heavy buffers and strong springs.  Then people started coming out with these longer buffers to reduce the stroke on those 9mm blowback setups.

Obviously, for the standard AR gas system, most likely won't be running those super heavy buffers and strong springs so you're right may be a non issue but then again not many people out there running 'long stroke' carriers on 556 for any extended period of time since it is all relatively new.

Video links

FERFRANS 2X2X2 semi

FERFRANS in shorties

2x2x2 full auto

I have both a piston bolt carrier and  DI FERFRANS carrier.
I am currently only U.S. guy to have run one combat.

OK.. I have seen those vids...didn't know if there were some I haven't seen.
So you've been running it since 2012?  Pretty hard?  I'm concerned the sliding weight may break from all the shock of slamming into the carrier after seeing the sliding weight from a counterpoise system break.

Not going to break, Ive run my DI one pretty damn hard, still going strong
after all these years.

Thanks for the info.  Seems like such a great product/design.  It should have taken off by now.  Doesn't seem like they try too hard at marketing it.  Most people have never heard of it.

FERFRANS is currently focusing on military sales (Asian Pacific) which they are doing well in.
Not that big of a push for U.S. market yet except for the CRD.

Great! Let me know when it arrives. What was the issuer? If I order one you think they will ship soon??

Have no idea if you order and it will ship soon.

I finally got someone from RP to pick up the phone, they found my order in their system and said they would get back to me right away.  They ended calling me back the next morning and said still working on it and mentioned something about them contacting some distribution point in Kentucky?

In the meantime, I was able to contact Ferfrans in California directly.  They were able to pull up the order in their system.  They did mention that the order was listed as one of their CRD's not the BCG.  The tracking info shows the package being accepted in California which makes sense since that is where the Ferfrans US location is.

All I know is mine is scheduled to arrive tomorrow and I hope a RRS BCG is in the box and not a CRD.  I plan to do some testing on Friday if things go as planned.

Well If it does not look this then its a CRD!

I’m watching this thread, as this seems like a worthy upgrade. I watched the videos, and it seems amazing.

I’m really curious how it compares to a Surefire OBC, as another $100 doesn’t seem like a major price difference once we step away from Toolcraft BCGs.

@Stukas87
Have you ran your BCG with Russian steel case? Of so, how did it perform? Also, do you use a Giessele SSF?

Edit: spelling

I have not tried any steel case with it .. Yes
I've tried it with Geissele triggers runs fine.

The one I've used on downrange is currently sitting in a clone
of my old work gun with a JP trigger.
I also own a complete ferfrans 16 inch rifle with adjustable gas piston.
It has the ferfrans bolt carrier group flash hider and crd

Yah...not a CRD:



What I was curious about was the carrier mods....
If you look at the Ferfrans patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US8001881B2/en?oq=8001881





You can see that the weighted trip has a spring loaded ball bearing that engages a corresponding hole in the carrier (3a and 3b).

I can see that mine has the spring loaded detent but they didn't bother to add the corresponding holes to the carrier....I guess they stopped doing that?

tag i guess

I want to see if this is as slow as a heavy (hydro) buffer/spring.

I've already got my setups running at a nice RoF using a hydraulic buffer.  
MK18 w/ .052 Gas port, M855, 671 RPM.  I want to see how much slower I can get it with the FerFrans BCG.
I would like to get the 9mm Guard carrier modified for the Ferfrans weighted trip depending on the differences I see with a couple different 556 setups first.

I’ve wanted a previously “unobtanium” Ferfrans bolt carrier for several years, ever since hearing about the design and its effectiveness at reducing the cyclic rate. I ordered mine on October 19th, and received my package today. Unfortunately, my package contained this:



I was pretty bummed out, but not overly surprised, considering the issues reported by fellow arfcom member Amphibian in this thread. I sent an email to Rally Point Tactical yesterday, so hopefully they can sort this out in a quick and painless manner.

That sucks...I think they must not get many orders for the RRS BCG.

I did test mine and was hoping to do some more testing before posting results but have been doing more tuning with the 9mm Guard in full auto instead....
Anyways here is my current test data.

Below is what my MK18 clocked at the same day I tested the Ferfrans.  This is using LC M855, Sprinco white spring, Colt BCG and H2 buffer.  828 RPM.


Same exact configuration but just swapping the Colt BCG for the Ferfrans RRS BCG yielded 668 RPM.


So a 160 RPM drop instantly.  That is great....but I found it to be extremely bouncy.
I even had a friend shoot it and he said, 'this is terrible'.
Here is a standard M16 BCG that is NiBoR coated:


Now here is the FerFrans RRS:


Only a 1.4 Oz difference.  I really don't think that the mass of the 1.4 Oz sliding weight is what is making it so bouncy.  I think it must be a timing issue.
I'm wondering if the detent spring that is inside the sliding weight is too strong and is pushing up too much.  I was thinking about removing it or swapping with a weaker spring.

In contrast, below is what I have been running which is super smooth and a pretty close cyclic rate of 716 RPM.  This is using the A5 buffer tube, 556 Tubb flat spring and the 9mm Hydraulic Blitzkrieg/Kynshot buffer with a standard BCG.


Now if I just put the Ferfrans RRS in the setup above, it doesn't reliably trip the autosear.  Like this buffer/spring configuration puts the BCG into battery too softly....Or again, maybe I just need to try removing the detent spring that is inside the sliding weight/trip.

Reading about full auto cyclic rates for years, I had always thought the only difference was how fast you emptied the magazine, so slower was always better.

Watching Forgotten Weapon videos with Ian's commentary, it's clear there are different nodes, or sweet spots, that allow more controllability in full auto.  Depending on ergonomics, reciprocating mass, recoil of a given cartridge, etc, faster is sometimes more controllable than slower.

Yes, I totally agree.  I have gotten my 9mm blowback and the 9mm Guard to run in the high 400's but they are too bouncy when that slow....however, I obtained those RPM's by adding weight and don't believe that is the best way to do that.
Likewise, I've been able to get 556 configurations to run really slow with weaker buffer springs and heavy buffers but again, too bouncy.
For gas operated actions, I much rather tune the gas system down to achieve slower RoF's.  I personally like in the 600's.
My favorite 556 setup is below, 12.5 Mid gas...timer battery died but it was 631 RPM unsuppressed with that buffer and spring configuration and super smooth.


Another 12.5 Mid setup suppressed with optimized port size.


On the 9mm blowback, I gave up years ago as it is just too bouncy when run slow and can't stand straight blowback.

Using the same buffer/spring/A5 tube pictured above for 556, I'm in the 600's with the 9mm Guard now....but will be posting more details about that later as I've done some additional tweaks to make that happen.

There's a couple of issues with overly slow full auto rate of fire (ROF) in hand held machine/submachine guns.  One is operational: when the bolt moves too slowly there can be failure to extract and/or eject properly on the rearward motion, and there can be failure to strip the cartridge off the magazine and/or feed the cartridge into the chamber properly on the forward motion.  The other issue is one of human anatomy and physiology: as is noted by several posts above, the 'bouncy', 'chuggy' feel many shooters experience with a low ROF.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

I hear you but I also think about the time I shot a full auto Ultimax.  RoF is 400 - 600 RPM and super smooth.
However it is open bolt and I don't think the bolt ever bottoms out on your shoulder.  Both of which make for a super smooth 556 LMG.
I know I'll probably never get as good as that on a closed bolt M16...but I'm trying to get as close as I can.

I've never shot one, but as another example the Sterling, also open bolt, enjoys a reputation as having a relatively ROF and smooth operation, and also has a generally winning subgun contest record to add credibility.

Best of luck with your quest.

@amphibian

Thanks for posting the information; knowing that it feels choppy helps me put it in perspective.

Are you planning to buy a SureFire OBC, or staying with normal BCGs?

As mentioned, I'm really happy with the buffer tube/buffer and spring I'm using now in all my 556 setups.  I was really hoping the Ferfrans would have worked in conjunction with that combination so I could port it over to the CMMG 9mm Guard carrier.  I may try the A5, 556 Tubb flat wire spring and a standard A5 buffer instead of the hydraulic and see if that will work just for the hell of it but even it does, I doubt it will be as smooth as what I have now...I just need to find the time to try that.

I've been too busy tuning my CMMG Guard to run as smooth as an MP5.
I've made some modifications to my CMMG Guard and have it shooting flatter than an MP5 but not as soft and I'm in the 600's so singles are quite easy.

At this point, I'm not going to mess with the OBC.  I have too many other configurations that have different carriers that depend on the standard AR15/M16 carrier travel, like the Shrike, FM9, 7.62x39 and 5.45x39, standard 556, 9mm Guard configurations.  I have specific carriers for all those except the standard 556.  I don't want to deal with the OBC which has its special buffer and extended carrier travel.

I'm impressed with the ROF you're getting with the Hydraulic Buffer.

Do you happen to know how much the buffer reduces ROF in a standard Midlength 14.5-16"?

I haven't tried any of my 14.5 or 16" mid setups since moving to this buffer / tube / spring arrangement.  I can try and get back to you.
I'm guessing it will be in the high 600's based on my testing with my 12.5" mid gas unsuppressed.

That would be awesome.

I've been interested in reducing full auto rof for awhile, so that would be a great data point if you can.

I got an email today saying they can’t get them from Ferfrans right now. I asked them to keep my order open and fill it when ferfrans fills their order. Hopefully I can still get one of these, I’ve been wanting one forever!

Hope you have better results than I did regarding smoothness.
I believe this is their direct site: https://athenadef.com/
Shows out of stock there also.
Hit them up on Facebook, that is how I got my order cleared up.

Also, looks like the little spring loaded ball detent in the sliding weight/trip is pressed in so no way to get it out without damaging it.

Got a chance to get this data. (14.5 mid)
LC M855 used in all testing.  Notice no compensator either.
Baseline, H2 buffer and white Sprinco spring (in carbine buffer tube).  839 RPM.


Same exact setup but tried swapping for the FerFrans BCG:...682 RPM....157 RPM reduction...but kinda bouncy like I mentioned before.


My current favorite buffer/spring/tube setups (A5 buffer tube, 556 Tubb flatwire spring, and 9mm Blitzkrieg/Kynshot buffer).  636 RPM and smoother than the FerFrans.  203 RPM reduction from baseline.


Just for yucks I tried using the FerFrans with this setup anticipating it wouldn't run like it didn't when I tried in my MK18 but to my surprise it ran all 10 rounds but kinda bouncy again.
Coming in super slow at 474 RPM though wow...365 RPM reduction from baseline!!!  
I only fired those 10 rounds and didn't have time to do more extended testing.

damn

you run that same buffer with a shrike? How does that work.

eta found a old post

it that buffer better than the enidine? I broke two of those in short order in my m16.

I have been waiting 3 years for that pic of a broken Enidine hydraulic buffer to show back up.
It has been getting passed around the internet since at least 2007 and you say it yours?
Hydraulic buffers not working well is a complete myth brought on by internet lore such as this pic.
In fact aside from those two pics there are no other examples of broken hydraulic buffers anywhere
Except in this article I wrote on the subject. In which I broke a Enidine buffer after maybe 30,000rds. The life of at least two barrels.
Why 3 years...that's when I wrote this 3 years ago
Defense Review Hydraulic Buffers

I cant wait until another 3 years and someone else posts it up as "evidence" of how bad Hydraulic buffers are

New complete FEFRANS 14.5 rifle with adjustable gas piston...

@Stukas87.  I thought the same thing when I saw TaylorWSO's post.  I read your article a long time ago on DR.  I haven't seen much data at all on the Enidine's failing and was surprised to see this.

@TaylorWSO, again, surprised to hear it was your Enidine that failed and two of them at that??

So I had an old 'Colt' hydraulic buffer back around 2001 or so that did end up leaking on me.  I can't recall any gun forums on the Internet back then.  I just threw it out but I was always leery of hydraulic buffers when that happened to me.  However, I know hydraulics are used in many industrial applications and it would be stupid to dismiss them just out of my one experience.

I did get an Enidine carbine buffer when they first came out.  Never had that one fail on me but there was no configuration that I used the Enidine in that I favored it over anything else.

Now with the Kynshot, they come in more variants than the Enidine did.  I have two of the '9mm' versions that again are the same length compressed as an A5 that I've been running heavily and yes also in the Shrike.  My old Enidine buffer is stiffer to compress than the 9mm Kynshot.  I also picked up a standard Kynshot carbine buffer and it is the same as the Enidine in terms of stiffness to compress....and I don't like either one of them for any of my configurations.  I personally think this is because all of my gas operated setups are all 'tuned' with optimal gas port sizes for unsuppressed and suppressed modes....I don't really have any 'overgassed' setups.  I think the hydraulic action isn't really getting a chance to do anything when the piston is too stiff....but again this is in 'MY' builds.  Most builds are overgassed and most people would benefit from the standard version if they have not done any tuning of the gas system and they have a barrel that is ported to run Tula while the person only shoots LC for example.

There is also an 'L' - light version which is easier to compress than the standard and '9mm'.  I haven't done extensive testing with that one yet.

In regards to the reliability of the Kynshot hydraulic buffers, mine have been great so far and I'll keep running them.  In their Youtube video they mention how they have some process to ensure that no air gets into the cylinder which is what has caused failures in the past.

No other examples on the  internet so it must be fact

They are both mine. I even posted a thread about it.

If you are trying to call me out on it you can get bent. Idgas if yours lasted 30k. My 2 did not.

Thanks for using my pic. Go add the other one. So you can update the only pic on the internet myth.

Yes they were mine. I posted about it in the AR forum they didn't last for shit.

On top of Kynshot,

Crosshair buffers work well also. The one I mention in my article that at the time not fully tested,
it still going strong in a gun now for what 3 years.

@TaylorWSO   I can get bent? .............okay sure...
if it is your pic
I hope you have updated that hideous blue carpet or vacuumed it at least

That's a old shop towel on top of a bench mr observation. It's supposed to be dirty.

I'll post pics later when I get home so you'll know there is more than one picture and your precious article is wrong and your wrong for trying to call me a liar

Geez man, hope you have a merry Christmas.

I get tired of people trying to call me out

When did I call you a liar?  ...So angry
Also you being the owner of the broken buffer does not make my article wrong...I just now know who keeps posting
the same pic up, every time the subject of Hydraulic buffer comes up! Its been 10 years, We get it, you don't like Hydraulic buffers.

Post all the pics you want, I bet at this point no one cares