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Posted: 3/28/2009 4:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ridewaves][Edited]
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The saga of my DBT FAPC…
On January 14th, 2009 I placed an order for the DBT AW-FAPC I had read about it in MM’s review and liked the design and concept. I decided to get one for myself. My initial order included a Ranger green plate carrier complete with cummerbund, QVA armor inserts, and a range of accessories for the accessory pouch system (pistol holster, mag pouches, zipper conversion, etc.). Along with the DBT Ultra Concealable Level 3 plate set (mine were a size large), my order came out to a little under $1200. One of my concerns regarding the plates was the amount of play when installed due to the reduced thickness. I was reassured that they fit well and did not “bounce around” by a DBT rep. Order received 3/2. About 2 weeks over the 1 month wait time quoted. At first glance the carrier seemed well made. Materials and stitching were typical of any reputable tactical gear manufacturer. When I went to put my new kit together, I noticed that something looked funny… It took me a few minutes of flipping the carrier over and over again before it actually registered: The FRONT accessory pouch (one of the new defining features of this system) was sewn on the BACK of the carrier. Where the hell… 
Oh, there it is… but… draghandle… what… 
After staring dumbfounded at the carrier for a few minutes, I called DBT and explained the situation. They arranged for a FEDEX pickup the following business day. In the meantime, I decided to investigate further… as it was being returned anyway. I put everything together and tried it on… I have to say I was disappointed. My email to DBT sums it up… Sir/Ma'am
I received my highly anticipated order of an AW-FAPC and associated accessories yesterday. I must say that I was disappointed. The overall construction of the gear is excellent, but for the following issues: • The Front Low Profile Pocket has been installed on the back of the plate carrier. Yes, the back. • The Utility Pouch Zipper Conversion Kit (BLP41SP) snaps do not line up with the snaps on the carrier’s pocket. I do not know if this is because the Zipper Kit is out of spec or the pocket itself (it IS on the wrong side of the carrier to begin with). • The Cross-draw Holster (BLP35SP) does not have a thumb break as pictured on your web site and catalog. • When opening the carrier to install the Ultra Concealable Level 3 Ballistic Rifle Plates, the snap on the plate compartment closure broke off. • When the Ultra Concealable Level 3 Ballistic Rifle Plates are installed in the carrier there is a large amount of extra space, allowing for plate movement when jumping, running, etc. When ordering, I was told by your representative (whose name escapes me) that this would not be an issue. • The cummerbund system fit will not work for me. In my opinion, the cummerbund should be smaller for the size carrier it was ordered with. Despite attempted adjustment the unit stuck out excessively (in my opinion), causing obstruction of movement and a loose unsecure feeling of the armor system as a whole. <snip> Sincerely, ridewaves Broken snap 
Holster sans thumb break… I have no idea WTH the other thing is… 
I ended up sending the entire order back for a refund. DBT said that they would put in a rush replacement order to be charged when shipped. At this point I declined the cummerbund system (there was just no way the single size only cummerbund would work with my size carrier) as well as a replacement set of plates. On 3/3 FEDEX picked up my package as scheduled and delivered it to DBT on 3/6. When I hadn’t heard anything by 3/9 I called in for a sitrep. I was told that the return should be processed by 3/11. 3/13… nothing. I called again and was told my refund would be processed by COB that day. 3/18… nothing. Called again and was told that I had to contact their financial department. I must have called 5 times that day. 3/19 refund processed. On 3/23 I got an email saying that my replacement order was ready and would ship on 3/27. When I called to confirm this on 3/24 I was told that the replacement carrier would actually be shipping out that day. Package arrived 3/27. All items present and accounted for. This is what I got… AW-FAPC size Medium, Rabger Green w/QVA armor. QVA shoulder inserts Pistol pouch Pistol mag pouch Zipper conversion kit. Price as delivered: $484.75 
The first thing I did was give everything a good once over. I immediately noticed an area on the top left corner of the rear plate pocket where the stitching was either done improperly or had failed. 
Buttons were all solid this time. The accessory pouch was on the front. 
I grabbed some Emdom mag pouches and threw everything together. Observations: The QVA armor (aside from the optional shoulder inserts) is sewn into the carrier. This is so you will always have the soft armor in conjunction with your plates… reducing the improper use of non-stand alone plates. The downside to this is that you more or less just have to trust that whoever put your rig together installed the correct armor in the correct way. How the shoulder inserts go in. 
Without the cummerbund there is a severe lack of real estate. You are maxed out at 3 mag pouches up front. 
The accessory pouch employs a full Velcro panel on the inside of the front panel only. Making for a somewhat unsecure attachment of the accessory pouches 
The pistol pouch will not accommodate a pistol light equipped gun. 
The thumb break secures to the holster via Velcro, then to the front and back of the accessory pouch with snaps. I found the break to be decidedly unsecure for my 1911. I could easily slide the gun out without disengaging the break. There is also not very much tab to disengage the break. 
The mag pouches secure to the accessory pouch in the same manner, via Velcro and snaps. The pouch seems to be designed for 9mm double stacks only. It is possible to get 2 1911 mags in… barely. The Wilson 47Ds I managed to cram in were so tight that when I tried to pull a mag out it ripped the entire mag pouch out of the accessory pouch. 
Donning the carrier was not the easiest thing. It is definitely not something you can just throw on, even when pre-adjusted to your body. When released, the shoulder adjustment points allow for the shoulder straps to slide completely out of their retainers. 
The side buckles were lightly difficult to secure unless loosened up a bit. It should be noted that if employing a cummerbund, these buckles must be secured first, then the cummerbund is secured over the side straps, and under the front accessory pouch panel and rear panel with velcro. 
The buckle adjustment failed the first time I pulled on it. 
When fully loaded the front of the panel feels “floppy” for lack of a better word. The design of the accessory pouch allows for a lot of slack between the plate pocket exterior and the accessory pouch interior. The fact that your primary mag pouches are attached to the accessory pouch exterior only makes things worse. Even with SAPI plates installed, the whole front end flops around and generally feels like it’s about to fall off when running or jumping. An additional Velcro panel connecting the front of the plate pocket to whatever is installed in the accessory pouch might reduce this. 
Based on the failed stitching alone, I would already be sending this back for a refund. Based on the two carriers I received, it would seem that their QC could stand some improvement. IMO, the design on this carrier needs some work. Donning the system is awkward. The adjustment points are prone to failure. Main feature that sets this system apart (the modular accessory pouch system) is a good concept, but needs to be re-engineered. Everything looks like it should be great in theory… but proves awkward or unserviceable when you try to use it. Even the way the carrier rides is weird... the back must be worn much higher than the front or the damn thing tries to choke you out. This makes the use of the side straps or a cummerbund even more difficult. WTH is that grommet doing there? 
Zipper conversion kit… with that same thing that I still can’t figure out a purpose for. 
Too bad. Looked like a damn cool rig. Although they have a glacier like operating pace, DBT’s customer service has always been friendly, professional and a pleasure to deal with. My main contact there was Cindy, who would shoot off multiple inquiries to different departments each time I called to try and figure out WTH was going on with my return. My impression is that some kind of new system has been implemented in their returns department that they haven’t quite gotten used to yet. Despite the personable staff, I have to say that I do not think DBT will get much more of my business. Experience has severely degraded my confidence in the integrity of their product. I wonder how long my refund will take this time?? 
5/22/09 - Interesting and pleasant suprise ending... Received an unexpected Fed Ex box today containing a DBT hat, gift certificate and the following. 
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...and how can man die better, than facing fearful odds; for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods?
SGT Steven Checo
OEF 21 DEC 02
SGT Steven Checo
OEF 21 DEC 02
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There is a "kangaroo" pouch on the front of the MTV along the lines of what you have on the DBT. It is useless for anything other than a small piece of map or VS-17 panel (cut down). Its pretty obvious once you put a hard plate in the front of that thing that you aint gonna be able to use it.
Do people actually test this stuff (really test it) before they produce it? Sometimes I get the feeling that companies send this gear out to their personal "testers" who are such gear whores that all they do is say "great piece of gear, send me more!" You think after a no BS review like this one they might have went back to drawing board? |
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I actually ran a DBT FAPC in Iraq, the desert tan color with the molle level IIIA cumberbund and level IIIA shoulders, (not your buckle settup.)
I ran it with the shoulders velcroed on top rather than under, as it was more comfortable and achieved the same end. I sewed a little velcro in with dental floss to make it compatible with the level III neck protector, and 100 mile an hour taped the inside of the neck protector so it was non abrasive as the 1000 denier nylon is. My only gripe was really slight lack of some vertical coverage on the sides of level IIIA soft armor, but then that rarely saves lives in Iraq anyway. I probably really benefited strongly from the cooling of not having it there. Some backup level IIIA (maybe 3" mounted under the sides and plate carrier would be cool) I think DBT is one of the best gear companies in the world. They have ex SF ownership and they have a lot of popularity with SF ODA's. They make creative, quality gear. Recently I've purchased their top bungeed single cell M4 with magnetic M9 molle pouches and they are fantastic. I have a DBT bino pouch that has med pouch style elastic loops internal perfect for storage and easy access to my backup/CLS CAT tourniquet which I can use if I'm conscious and have severe bleeding in a fight were my guys are occupied and can't access my side loaded, issued IFAK |
I hit a little Ivan first round at 300 meters with my 4.5" paclite Ruger MKII. Don't ask me to do it again, I can't. FFL type 07 C2 SOT. 262-613-8984 www.griffinarmament.com
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I've spoken to some other people who use their gear... thus far it seems like I just have bad luck or something. DBT has told me that they have not had reports of any issues similar to mine, though all positive reviews of the accessory pouch system have been from people using it as a utility pouch with the zipper conversion.
Cindy with DBT is great to deal with. She's been handling my orders since day 1. I will say that they have EXCELLENT customer service. Well, the plate carrier is all boxed up and ready to go back (again) tomorrow. Will post any noteworthy updates. |
...and how can man die better, than facing fearful odds; for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods?
SGT Steven Checo
OEF 21 DEC 02
SGT Steven Checo
OEF 21 DEC 02
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hopefully you have better luck.
The one problem with making gear overseas as I believe DBT does, is quality control isnt as hot as Eagle where things are sewn in the USA. Sounds like you got a carrier from a disgruntled employee in that other country that wasn't inspected here. |
I hit a little Ivan first round at 300 meters with my 4.5" paclite Ruger MKII. Don't ask me to do it again, I can't. FFL type 07 C2 SOT. 262-613-8984 www.griffinarmament.com
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I have one of the first gen FAPCs.
Other than adding some straps to the shoulders to keep things secure, it has been great. I just run it with SAPI plates and a small load of mags and a flashlight. It is lightning quick to don it on and off. I didn't want to deal with the cumberbund. The whole unit flops around a bit when running, but this isn't something I plan to run any marathons with or even wear for and extended period of time. The gen II FAPC came out right after I purchased mine, but it looks like they tried to make it too fancy for my needs. Less is more. |
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Originally Posted By Green0:
hopefully you have better luck. The one problem with making gear overseas as I believe DBT does, is quality control isnt as hot as Eagle where things are sewn in the USA. Sounds like you got a carrier from a disgruntled employee in that other country that wasn't inspected here. I could be wrong, but I think Diamondback still uses Savannah Luggage Works for their sewing. |
I have just receaved my DBT Fast Attack Plate Carrier Gen 2 (small) in desert tan with cummerbund. (sorry, no pictures at this time.) I placed my order about 2 weeks ago and paid extra for the next day shipping. It took them about 2 days to process my order. That friday I receved a phone call from one or there employees stating that where was an issue with the inventory and that my cummerbund was not going to be available for the next month. I explained that I was deploying to Iraq in a few weeks (military contractor) and would like to have my complete kit when I left. She said that she would investigate and see what she could do to come up with the part. 2 hours later I receaved an email stating that she had indeed found one set with an order that was not set to ship out for a month and sent it to me. I receaved both parts the next week. Im not sure exactly when because i was on a trip but they were waiting for me when I came home. Appon inspection I found that the plate carrier was not what I ordered. I ended up with a standard plate carrier . I called the next buisness day and talked to another friendly and helpfull employee. She apologised, made some calls, found me the right plate carrier which she shipped overnight free of charge and called Fedex for a next day pickup at my house free of charge. Sure enough the next day 8 AM pacific Fedex knocked on my door and picked up the miss shipped plate carrer. 3 hours later my new and propper carrier arived. I have never experenced shipping that fast....ever! I will continue to purchase my equipment from them because of the quality of customer service.
Now for the review: The cummerbund had lots of realistate and looks to be well made. It also came with removable pouches for side SAPI plates. The cummerbund also has pockets on both sides in which a map could be stuffed. I had to adjust it a little to fit my frame but all worked out (not unsual with me). I agree that the cummerbund size should be based on the carriers size. Over all seemed like a good envestment and if the carrier changes the cummerbund will be carried over. Over all im happy with it. The carrier it self had some minor issues. The sholder straps seemed a liitle too short for me. I have mine adjusted to the maximum limit to keep the plates from choking me. an extra 3 or 4 inches on the sholder straps would have been nice for more positive contact. The pouch on the front is ok but nothing that I would keep a pistol in. I just dont feel comfortable with the idea. But it seems to work well for maps and 9 line cards. I would also have liked to have some built in velcro on the upper two rows of MOLLE webing for IR tags or flag patches. Buckles on the sholders for getting out of the side of the rig easier would be nice as well. The buckles are nice without the cummerbund but with the cummerbund on, they seem to be in the way and could be uncomfortable with side SAPIs in place. Would also like to have seen some padding on the inside for comfort. I am a picky person when it comes to gear and with the several vests I have owned and used over the past 5 years I have never been fully satisfied. Untill I am It looks like the Tac gear companies will keep getting my money. Cry Percisions new carrier looks comfortable but im not about to pay 2k for a vest with out plates. |
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Fuck DBT.
THey had a sale here in their local wharehouse. I showed up to see what they had and grabbed a few small things. Then I saw that they had a bunch of soft armor inserts and backing panels on sale. I called a couple friends and asked if they wanted anything and then grabbed it all. When I walked up and laid it on the counter they asked me for some kind of proof that I was a cop. When I told them I wasn't LE they said "Sorry, no sale". Now that pisses me off, but the worst part is that in a local forum there was a thread running about the sale. When I posted my experience in the thread it seems one of the local cops decided to snitch me out for the review and DBT basically decided that I was no longer welcome at their company if they could figure out who I was I would be banned. Fuck DBT. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
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Originally Posted By MudBug:
Fuck DBT. THey had a sale here in their local wharehouse. I showed up to see what they had and grabbed a few small things. Then I saw that they had a bunch of soft armor inserts and backing panels on sale. I called a couple friends and asked if they wanted anything and then grabbed it all. When I walked up and laid it on the counter they asked me for some kind of proof that I was a cop. When I told them I wasn't LE they said "Sorry, no sale". Now that pisses me off, but the worst part is that in a local forum there was a thread running about the sale. When I posted my experience in the thread it seems one of the local cops decided to snitch me out for the review and DBT basically decided that I was no longer welcome at their company if they could figure out who I was I would be banned. Fuck DBT. So, what you're saying is that you asked DBT to violate their own policy on selling body armor to civilians. They didn't, you proceeded to talk shit about them, and now they don't like you. Am I getting this right? And somehow they are the assholes?
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Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By MudBug:
Fuck DBT. THey had a sale here in their local wharehouse. I showed up to see what they had and grabbed a few small things. Then I saw that they had a bunch of soft armor inserts and backing panels on sale. I called a couple friends and asked if they wanted anything and then grabbed it all. When I walked up and laid it on the counter they asked me for some kind of proof that I was a cop. When I told them I wasn't LE they said "Sorry, no sale". Now that pisses me off, but the worst part is that in a local forum there was a thread running about the sale. When I posted my experience in the thread it seems one of the local cops decided to snitch me out for the review and DBT basically decided that I was no longer welcome at their company if they could figure out who I was I would be banned. Fuck DBT. So, what you're saying is that you asked DBT to violate their own policy on selling body armor to civilians. They didn't, you proceeded to talk shit about them, and now they don't like you. Am I getting this right? And somehow they are the assholes? Yeah, I'm at a bit of a loss trying to figure out why you are surprised that they decided they didn't want to do business with you anymore. |
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.
| The policy is strange... but a liability reducing policy I suppose. Pinnacle has similar rules I believe? It's up to them I don't consider a company assholes if they won't sell to civilians, but then I'm in the military so it doesn't apply to me.. if it helps the armor is average. Nothing special just level IIIA soft armor- availible everywhere. |
I hit a little Ivan first round at 300 meters with my 4.5" paclite Ruger MKII. Don't ask me to do it again, I can't. FFL type 07 C2 SOT. 262-613-8984 www.griffinarmament.com
| I have seen some DBT gear in person and it looks nice.. But handling a buddy's rig in the office or at the trunk of his car going "Ohhh and Ahh!" is far from running and testing. I have varying opionins but I take them all with a grain of salt. For what its worth, that was a very nice review and write up. Like the pictures and updates. Very informative. Thanks for the write up. |
"Whiskey Tango Foxtrot .... Over...."
"Its all fun and games until he runs out the backdoor..."
"Its all fun and games until he runs out the backdoor..."
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Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By MudBug:
Fuck DBT. THey had a sale here in their local wharehouse. I showed up to see what they had and grabbed a few small things. Then I saw that they had a bunch of soft armor inserts and backing panels on sale. I called a couple friends and asked if they wanted anything and then grabbed it all. When I walked up and laid it on the counter they asked me for some kind of proof that I was a cop. When I told them I wasn't LE they said "Sorry, no sale". Now that pisses me off, but the worst part is that in a local forum there was a thread running about the sale. When I posted my experience in the thread it seems one of the local cops decided to snitch me out for the review and DBT basically decided that I was no longer welcome at their company if they could figure out who I was I would be banned. Fuck DBT. So, what you're saying is that you asked DBT to violate their own policy on selling body armor to civilians. They didn't, you proceeded to talk shit about them, and now they don't like you. Am I getting this right? And somehow they are the assholes? Yup, That's what I'm saying. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
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Update on my review on the FAPC Gen 2. Today, not even a week after purchasing the vest and only wearing it around the house testing for fitting I have allready have had one loop for the shock cord on the cummerbund break. I then took the vest down to my local tactical shop who deals in Condor, the popular airsoft gear company as well as Tactical Taylor. The staff and I compaired the quality of work between the different products they had in the store. I was not expecting what we found. First I was seconded by everyone in the shop on the few small things such as velcro not being where we would have liked with some waisted realistate on the front pannel and so on (for details se previous post). No real big deal there and at that point everyone had agreed that there was nothing that wouldnt hinder them from buying one or steal mine. But when we started looking at the stiching we found it to be almost identical with the condor gear. With the name and reputation like DBT we all expected alot more in stiching. The stiching was not the kind that is unexceptable but we were expecting alot more double and cross stitching than what little we found. The quality would of this vest would hold up to the abuse of the typical tactical range class and general tactical use but I dont see this vest surviving the hard use a grunt would put on the vest in Afganistan or another war zone for an extended deployment and defenately not two or three trips.
I have owned several vests from military issue, Condor, Eagle, TAG, HSGI, and now Dimondback Tactical. I would place the quality of gear above Condor, about on par with Eagle and not on par with HSGI and Tactical Taylor. I will be using this vest when I redeploy here in a couple of weeks. I will continue to use the vest untill it has a severe failure or I get bored with it and order something else. If I sound bitter about the product, im not. I did however have a high quality, hand made, and bomb proof image of what I orderd and that is not what I receaved. I receaved the same quality as mass produced Eagle. Good gear, just not what I was looking for. DBT, if you have a rep reading this, please take at least the stitching to heart. I would have gladly paid 50 or 60 bucks more for the extra thread and time put into the vest. Your customer service has been top notch and that is why I will continue to order through you for many other purchases. I will do another update in a few months when I have had some considerable time with the vest. I will also post pics before leave of the vest. Semper Fi, Jerm |
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Just a final update. The FAPC was picked up by Fedex as scheduled... arrived back at DBT on 4/3. Shot an email into check on its status and got a reply from Cindy on 4/6 that she was checking, then another on Tuesday 4/7 saying that it was being processed. Refund went through on their end on 4/8 and posted to my account today.
DBT's customer service continues to impress, hopefully the gear catches up. |
...and how can man die better, than facing fearful odds; for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods?
SGT Steven Checo
OEF 21 DEC 02
SGT Steven Checo
OEF 21 DEC 02
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I too am annoyed with DBT. I ordered a bunch of gear from the 21 sale and it all was mixed up and they sent me instead of SR25 mag holders they sent me a buch of gernade pouches.
I once tried to buy a armor carrier for the side plates i had and they told me no becasue I wasn't a cop. What a bunch of loosers. I hope when the wars are over and we become their only customers they suffer as a result of these actions. Funny how they would go out of their way not to send me a pouch that holds ammor and go out of their way to send me pouches that hold gernades! |
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Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Will the carrier hold square plates too or just the shooters cut ones? Unless the FACP has been radically redesigned, you have to have 'clipped corner' plates for them to fit. |
" Most people dread going to the DMV; that such a state-run blueprint will now be superimposed on manufacturing, energy, health care, and banking should scare every American." – Victor Hansen
| That sux and will limit you to what type of plates you can use. A lot of the HDPE plates do not have the shooters cut. Also, what about the internal cummerbund, does it have one when you install the external one that comes with it? IE is it like the predator where it fits through a slot in the back and wraps around you under the carrier to help take the weight off your sholders? Or does it just put everything on your sholders even with the external cummerbund installed? |
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Originally Posted By dudeskis:
Thanks for the heads up on DBT. I'll steer my business to TT or HSGI from now on. Anyone have experience with Tactical Assault Gear quality? TAG are solid folks. Keep you eye out they have some great sales. They send out a calendar with sale dates on it. |
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Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
All of these are making me look harder at the blackhawk cutaway rig. Around in the same price arena as the DBT stuff and holds any stile plate. i cant speak for much else other than these 2, but i can say between the BH Strike cutaway OTV carrier and the DBT Predator otv carrier, the DBT was hands-down a better piece of kit |
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ridewaves - sorry that you had a bad experience with your AW-FAPC. the velcro thing that you can't figure out is an add-on bar which attaches to the row of PALS webbing immediately above the 9mm mag pouch, for extra security. i didn't find it necessary. if you look at the pics in my writeup closely, you can see it installed behind the pistol mag pouch.
i agree with your observation about the plates. my SAPI plate are the type with the padding in front, so they fit the pockets snugly. i can definitely see thinner plates making the pockets loose. i do mention that in my writeup on the original FAPC. i also found that the one size fits all cummerbund was too large for me. i brought it up to DBT and was told that two sizes would be available - i wasn't aware that it wasn't implemented - that's news to me. anyways, in my writeups, all i can do is write what i observe and experience - good and bad - but it's just one man's opinion and not everyone will come to the same conclusions. i'll forward this link to someone at DBT, if they haven't seen it already, so they can see what needs fixing. |
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sorry to bring this thread up but I didnt want to start a new thread to share my experience:
I've had the opportunity to buy a used/never used Gen 1 FAPC...I already have my SAPI and was not sure my plates would fit that carrier, so I wrote a email to DBT asking if a Large SAPI would fit a Medium FAPC (I had to ask because their website says both M and L will fit 10x12 plates  )
the answer to my simple qestion was: "Yes, it will fit!" of course the plate wont fit the carrier 
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