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Posted: 2/29/2024 8:34:23 AM EDT
| I want a 16" Para FAL something awful and have for a long time. I plan to make it a reality in the next couple months. wanted to see what actual accuracy that people who own them are getting, rather than going off "the FAL is a 2-4 moa gun." Would love to see some firsthand experience. |
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| I won't know where any targets are but I seem to remember 2 moa or really close. any rifle is going to look its best with ammo tuned to it specifically. if you shoot battle pack 147s you will group larger than FGGM 168s. in my experience you can rank 308 battle rifles, scar 17s, hk91, fnfal a close third, m1a, but I have no experience with others. find the ammo it likes and you should be happy with the rifle from DSA. good luck! |
3-4 MOA seems to be average, check these guys out…… FN FAL Para to 500yds: Practical Accuracy (Iron Sights, South African) |
If a 147 grn 9mm at 1000 FPS is the hammer of Thor then a 165 grn. 40 at 1200 fps must a lightening bolt from Zeus!
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You cant get an exact answer unless you are measuring the exact rifle you are buying. But another thing to keep in mind is that the front sight is on the upper and the rear sight is on the lower, so when reading reviews its important to know if they are using irons or a mounted optic. If the optic is mounted then you remove this possible variable of tilt between the receivers, and can result in a better MOA reading. In my opinion if you are concerned with measuring moa on the rifle instead of minute of good enough then a FAL probably isn't for you. Not to say you cant get a FAL with decent accuracy, but there really are not any companies that make a tuned FAL, so it's something you would have to do yourself, or just get lucky. I got a stg-58 kit with earlier FN barrel, it floats around 2 moa for me depending on load and fire rate. But yeah, I would say on average with normal ammo expect around 3 MOA or so. |
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Is it just this specific rifle or is this an FAL thing? I've never owned a FAL, but growing up word on the street was they were pretty accurate. Fast foward 20 years or so and I want a FAL. Watched the same TFB video and basically left with the impression FALs are 3MOA guns. Acceptable, but I was under the impression they were 1.5-2 moa guns |
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OEM FALs were expected to perform better than 4 MOA from the factory or they were rejected. Militaries would also remove such rifles from service. The inaccuracy if the FAL is rather exaggerated. A competitive shooter on the FAL Files was able to achieve a sub-MOA mean radius. That said, DSA may not perform as well as an original. Hard to say for sure. |
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Originally Posted By campower: Is it just this specific rifle or is this an FAL thing? I've never owned a FAL, but growing up word on the street was they were pretty accurate. Fast foward 20 years or so and I want a FAL. Watched the same TFB video and basically left with the impression FALs are 3MOA guns. Acceptable, but I was under the impression they were 1.5-2 moa guns I have owned multiple M14 clones, G3s and their clones, FALs and AR-10s. The FALs are the least accurate of the bunch but they are perfectly suitable for what they were designed for…a battle rifle. |
If a 147 grn 9mm at 1000 FPS is the hammer of Thor then a 165 grn. 40 at 1200 fps must a lightening bolt from Zeus!
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Originally Posted By Ghostface: I have owned multiple M14 clones, G3s and their clones, FALs and AR-10s. The FALs are the least accurate of the bunch but they are perfectly suitable for what they were designed for…a battle rifle. Originally Posted By Ghostface: Originally Posted By campower: Is it just this specific rifle or is this an FAL thing? I've never owned a FAL, but growing up word on the street was they were pretty accurate. Fast foward 20 years or so and I want a FAL. Watched the same TFB video and basically left with the impression FALs are 3MOA guns. Acceptable, but I was under the impression they were 1.5-2 moa guns I have owned multiple M14 clones, G3s and their clones, FALs and AR-10s. The FALs are the least accurate of the bunch but they are perfectly suitable for what they were designed for…a battle rifle. Same, I dumped my G3 clone and FAL in favor of a M1A. I recently added AR10. G3 / FAL accuracy wasn't worth the price of ammo back then or now. |
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Originally Posted By MarkHatfield: Reliable sources have said that the FAL tends to walk its shots up as the barrel warms up. Vertical stringing is common to all the tilting bolt rifles I can think of. Something about the precise and minute geometry of the bolt lockup changing as the pressure from the magazine spring decreases. Or something. My French semi-autos seem to do it less than my FALs or FN-49. My brother's SVT definitely did it. |
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Originally Posted By marcus5819: Exactly. It’s damn battle rifle god sakes. Lol guys I'm not asking for it to be a precision rifle. I was just asking for some input from actual users on what to expect rather than just go off of the usual "it's a 4 moa gun" answer that I generally see. 2-4moa is perfectly acceptable for a battle rifle, especially a 16-18" one. Was just curious of real world results. Thank you |
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Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo: Lol guys I'm not asking for it to be a precision rifle. I was just asking for some input from actual users on what to expect rather than just go off of the usual "it's a 4 moa gun" answer that I generally see. 2-4moa is perfectly acceptable for a battle rifle, especially a 16-18" one. Was just curious of real world results. Thank you Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo: Originally Posted By marcus5819: Exactly. It’s damn battle rifle god sakes. Lol guys I'm not asking for it to be a precision rifle. I was just asking for some input from actual users on what to expect rather than just go off of the usual "it's a 4 moa gun" answer that I generally see. 2-4moa is perfectly acceptable for a battle rifle, especially a 16-18" one. Was just curious of real world results. Thank you I bought a used Para Congo last year and traded it off for two reasons. The accuracy sucked even by fal standards, and the recoil was just punishing. I'd take it to the range with a few mags and usually only shoot one mag though it because it was just unpleasant to shoot. I never tried different ammo, or mounted an optic....but I was getting 6-8moa groups. Part of that is my eyes not loving iron sights, but I get much better groups with the stg-58 kit build I have. I would not recommend buying one. I will say it was reliable though. As long as I had the gas adjusted properly I never had a malfunction. |
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Originally Posted By bigstick61: OEM FALs were expected to perform better than 4 MOA from the factory or they were rejected. Militaries would also remove such rifles from service. The inaccuracy if the FAL is rather exaggerated. A competitive shooter on the FAL Files was able to achieve a sub-MOA mean radius. That said, DSA may not perform as well as an original. Hard to say for sure. Heard the same as well, in particular with the Belgian rifles, with 168gr FGMM, MOA to 1.5 MOA was possible at 100. Had a friend on the Fal Files over 20 years ago who was getting that with his factory 50:00 iirc |
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| The ten FALs I own/have owned all shot no worse than 2.75 MOA with my reloads, with the best being 1.75. |
"What is socialism? The most difficult and tortuous way to progress from capitalism to capitalism." -Stated at an intel conference, East Berlin, Oct. 1988
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
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Originally Posted By lew: The ten FALs I own/have owned all shot no worse than 2.75 MOA with my reloads, with the best being 1.75. I have an issue if Guns & Ammo from the 80s in which they test various " assault weapons" including a factory FN FAL and using PMC ball ammo (IIRC) they got 1.75" grpups at 100 yards with it |
The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.
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Back when ammo was cheap , .15 to .20 , and I was shooting my DSA 21" regularly , a 3" group was fairly easy off the bench. Mine was made the Steyr barrels , which I understood were very good. The younger guy I shot with could put up a 2" group with Port ammo and irons with his FAL. Those younger eyes with that tiny rear sight! Always wanted a "Para" though. I should get my FAL out. 
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Originally Posted By bigstick61: I have an issue if Guns & Ammo from the 80s in which they test various " assault weapons" including a factory FN FAL and using PMC ball ammo (IIRC) they got 1.75" grpups at 100 yards with it I can see it. My reloads are nothing special- Hornady 150 gr. FMJBT and mixed military cases. SD over twenty rounds last time I chrono'd them was 15. 
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"What is socialism? The most difficult and tortuous way to progress from capitalism to capitalism." -Stated at an intel conference, East Berlin, Oct. 1988
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
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Originally Posted By bnz42: I'd go with a 18" barrel Para build. Unless, you want AK ballistics out of a FAL. Truth. 18/17.3" FALs are magical. |
"What is socialism? The most difficult and tortuous way to progress from capitalism to capitalism." -Stated at an intel conference, East Berlin, Oct. 1988
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
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Originally Posted By bigstick61: I have an issue if Guns & Ammo from the 80s in which they test various " assault weapons" including a factory FN FAL and using PMC ball ammo (IIRC) they got 1.75" grpups at 100 yards with it I have shot a bunch of early 80s to late 80s PMC M80 ball. It shoots a out 2 inches out of my 14 FALs, M1As bolt 308 and AR 10s. It'd gone down to 1 1/4 in the AR10 and M1A super match with some lots. I bought it by the pallet In the early 1990s I have a lifetime supply Run out on the bullets is the limiting factor. I suspect it would go below an inch if ni picked the best 10%. |
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Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo: Lol guys I'm not asking for it to be a precision rifle. I was just asking for some input from actual users on what to expect rather than just go off of the usual "it's a 4 moa gun" answer that I generally see. 2-4moa is perfectly acceptable for a battle rifle, especially a 16-18" one. Was just curious of real world results. Thank you Yeah its been a while since I took my para out, but yeah mine gets something like 2-4" with SA surplus which it generally likes. Not match grade ammo but perfectly acceptable. Its basically a fist sized group from a mag with the center shot out. I'm running a 4x scope on it though. It was built by the best smith using quality STG parts tho. A big part of accuracy is also what you can do as a shooter, how shitty or not the trigger is and all that jazz, irons vs optic etc. A big reason the M14 usually compares really well to the other battle rifles is cuz it has excellent irons, and a great trigger compared to everything else as well as really long sight radius. Speaking in general terms I'd say for the battle rifles. M14, great sights, great triggers G3 series, great sights, absolute shit trigger, free floated barrel (sorta) FAL's, generally shit sights (hinged receiver, which might have SUS lockup), mediocre triggers. You can generally fix all of the above problems though with the proper application of money though. |
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin: Yeah TBH 17-18" is about as short as I'd go with in a 308 in a practical sense. And I say that having shot alot of G3K's. Originally Posted By Harlikwin: Originally Posted By lew: Truth. 18/17.3" FALs are magical. Yeah TBH 17-18" is about as short as I'd go with in a 308 in a practical sense. And I say that having shot alot of G3K's. My .308 AR10 has an 18" barrel. Slightly better ballistics than a 16", way less blast, and only a tad more handling hassle. |
"What is socialism? The most difficult and tortuous way to progress from capitalism to capitalism." -Stated at an intel conference, East Berlin, Oct. 1988
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
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Originally Posted By lew: My .308 AR10 has an 18" barrel. Slightly better ballistics than a 16", way less blast, and only a tad more handling hassle. At this point an AR10 platform is just plain better than weapons designed/built in the 50's. No real surprise there. 18" for a "short" 308 is the sweet spot IMO. |
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin: At this point an AR10 platform is just plain better than weapons designed/built in the 50's. No real surprise there. 18" for a "short" 308 is the sweet spot IMO. Originally Posted By Harlikwin: Originally Posted By lew: My .308 AR10 has an 18" barrel. Slightly better ballistics than a 16", way less blast, and only a tad more handling hassle. At this point an AR10 platform is just plain better than weapons designed/built in the 50's. No real surprise there. 18" for a "short" 308 is the sweet spot IMO. When do you think the AR-10 was designed? 
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16" fal is one of the best buys I've done in past 2yrs. It shoots fine enough for me. my best group so far has been just under 5" with 10rds @100yd using irons. Groups be damned it is just a fun rifle to shoot, been shooting carbine matches with it. On the 4th I'll be doing a battle rifle burn down with a few friends shooting battle rifles to 700yds. All irons standard 147/150 ammo. |
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin: At this point an AR10 platform is just plain better than weapons designed/built in the 50's. No real surprise there. 18" for a "short" 308 is the sweet spot IMO. Originally Posted By Harlikwin: Originally Posted By lew: My .308 AR10 has an 18" barrel. Slightly better ballistics than a 16", way less blast, and only a tad more handling hassle. At this point an AR10 platform is just plain better than weapons designed/built in the 50's. No real surprise there. 18" for a "short" 308 is the sweet spot IMO. 
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The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.
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Originally Posted By Kalahnikid: I knew that's really want what you meant but as an AR history nerd I had to say something. Yeah, I figured I'd get shit for it when I typed it. But it was the forward looking design, and really you can't call modern AR-10pattern rifles actual AR-10's cuz many of the the parts don't really interchange. Meanwhile, with FAL's or M14's or HK91's they do. And really the platform wouldn't be where it is today without Reed Knight reworking it. |
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin: At this point an AR10 platform is just plain better than weapons designed/built in the 50's. No real surprise there. 18" for a "short" 308 is the sweet spot IMO. You’re just joking about that right? Older thread but 2.5-4 MOA IS just about all you’re going to get without a lot of thoughtful tweaking. On Falfiles there is a long thread by Paolo who did some real nice tuning. He tightened up a lot of looseness that was ok on a rattle battle rifle to make it sing in his matches. |
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DSA owner. They are reasonably accurate. The ones with the bipod less so. The thing is they are like AK's in that they will fire under extreme conditions. On the FAL Files there is the story of old Dirty: https://www.falfiles.com/threads/the-tale-of-ol-dirty-a-texas-legend-update-over-16-000-rnds-fired-w-o-cleaning.68486/ If you want a hard hitting rifle that will fire under extreme conditions, well beyond what an AR-10 can handle, than an FAL is for you... |
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Originally Posted By thejokker: DSA owner. They are reasonably accurate. The ones with the bipod less so. The thing is they are like AK's in that they will fire under extreme conditions. On the FAL Files there is the story of old Dirty: https://www.falfiles.com/threads/the-tale-of-ol-dirty-a-texas-legend-update-over-16-000-rnds-fired-w-o-cleaning.68486/ If you want a hard hitting rifle that will fire under extreme conditions, well beyond what an AR-10 can handle, than an FAL is for you... This. I love FALs, after the SCAR it's my favorite battle rifle along with the Tavor 7. FALs work great as .308 bullet hoses and like Jokker said, they are absolute machines in harsh conditions if you get the gas adjustment tuned right. |
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Originally Posted By Zeebz: This. I love FALs, after the SCAR it's my favorite battle rifle along with the Tavor 7. FALs work great as .308 bullet hoses and like Jokker said, they are absolute machines in harsh conditions if you get the gas adjustment tuned right. And it's super easy to adjust the gas on the fly... |
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Originally Posted By bigstick61: Originally Posted By bigstick61: Originally Posted By Harlikwin: Originally Posted By lew: My .308 AR10 has an 18" barrel. Slightly better ballistics than a 16", way less blast, and only a tad more handling hassle. At this point an AR10 platform is just plain better than weapons designed/built in the 50's. No real surprise there. 18" for a "short" 308 is the sweet spot IMO. Regarding any serious usage, that debate's been long settled. The Stoner system was the better choice then, and the gulf has only widened with recent options. |
"What is socialism? The most difficult and tortuous way to progress from capitalism to capitalism." -Stated at an intel conference, East Berlin, Oct. 1988
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
| was my experience that my 16" had less vertical stringing than my other FALs with longer barrels. I also usually kept the factory style bipod on mine, which is contrary to what most here prefer. Somehow the harmonics on that one rifle just worked better with the bipod than without. |
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Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo: Lol guys I'm not asking for it to be a precision rifle. I was just asking for some input from actual users on what to expect rather than just go off of the usual "it's a 4 moa gun" answer that I generally see. 2-4moa is perfectly acceptable for a battle rifle, especially a 16-18" one. Was just curious of real world results. Thank you 2-4 is about right. Depends on the ammo alot. |
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Originally Posted By scatterbrains: We did a battle rifle burn down today out to 700, I shot a 12" group at 100yd be because a shanked one shot bad but the other nine were inside 4". We then proceeded to shoot them out to 700. I cleared to 635 but couldn't get 700. 707 is the farthest I've shot my FAL successfully with irons. I hit the target at that range at Cola Warrior Keystone I and II. The first time it was a steel standing man silhouette target. It took around 4 shots to figure out my hold using the 600m setting and then two of the next three shots connected. I was shooting from the jackass sitting position with a loop sling as a shooting aid. The next year I tried a TA-31 but couldn't see to hit anything with it, so I took it off and said "fuck it" and went for the 707 yard target, which that year was smaller, being a square plate (I forget the size; 24" square, maybe?), and using the same hold as before, connected on the second shot. This time I was using a bag rest that I had carried with me on the run. I was using Hornady Black 155gr. AMAX, which I use now because Hornady discontinued the 155 gr. ELD-M ammo, which is what my rifle likes the most. It also makes the trajectory out of a 17" barrel very similar to that of ball ammo out of a 21" barrel, so the sights correspond very well at the ranges at which they are marked. |
The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.
-Lord Acton
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FALs in my experience shoot better with weight on the end of the barrel. I think thats why the STG58 put together decent had a better than average rep. The barrel on these whip if you look in slowmo video. The tilt lock up is against you for repeatability. One on the tight side with tailored ammo and a heavy barrel seem to do better than average. Having the gas closed up more than needed helps a tight headspace be a little more repeatable Like someone said you can get 2 inches or so by luck of the draw with ammo it likes. Some shoot heavier bullets than the 147 M80 some shoot just as bad. Unlike getting an M1A1 really good, an FAL doesn't have any magic potions. Just ballpark suggestions. Sometimes you just are not in the right ballpark whatever you do. Its a 4 inch gun no mater what. I only own about 30 variants. It will do as most can hold as needs to be done with irons. Which also suck without maintenance. |
| I'd read somewhere long ago that the accuracy problems with the FAL were related to the constantly changing pressure on the bolt exerted by the ammo in the magazines, i.e., more pressure from a full magazine, decreasing pressure with every expended round. It would be interesting to shoot a single 20 round mag of ammo, then for the next 20 rounds load a single round in the mag, chamber it, then fire, continue loading the rest of the rounds one at a time, then compare both groups. |
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