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Close Inspection of Coopers Scout Rifle Definition (Page 2 of 2)
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Enforcer, A very excellent write up on the scout concept and its evolution. I too believe that with the advancement of technologies and such that the scout concept could also change in order to be up to date. Technologies that we take for granted now, were science fiction a few years ago. The reliability of red-dots is exceedingly increasing year by year. For example, Aimpoint, now has a model which uses normal AA batteries and is able to perform non-stop for 8 years. And is waterproof, shockproof, dust proof, etc. Few traditional optics can claim that dependability for 8 years. As far as a semi-automatic, my question is why not? If it meets the criteria and is ultra reliable, why not. A semi-auto takes out the human error factor of working the bolt under stress, this could be more advantageousness with modern designs which is as reliable as the ammunition in which you shoot. Anyway that was my .02 and thanks for the excellent write up.
-Private Contractor- |
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Originally Posted By PrivateContactor:
Enforcer, A very excellent write up on the scout concept and its evolution. I too believe that with the advancement of technologies and such that the scout concept could also change in order to be up to date. Technologies that we take for granted now, were science fiction a few years ago. The reliability of red-dots is exceedingly increasing year by year. For example, Aimpoint, now has a model which uses normal AA batteries and is able to perform non-stop for 8 years. And is waterproof, shockproof, dust proof, etc. Few traditional optics can claim that dependability for 8 years. As far as a semi-automatic, my question is why not? If it meets the criteria and is ultra reliable, why not. A semi-auto takes out the human error factor of working the bolt under stress, this could be more advantageousness with modern designs which is as reliable as the ammunition in which you shoot. Anyway that was my .02 and thanks for the excellent write up. -Private Contractor- Other than possible concern about too many accessories mounted on a weapon, I could see a red dot / magnifier combo being practical on a scout type rifle. |
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Well this is by far the best thread I have seen in a while and gunwriter showed up too maybe the place isn't getting as bad as I thought. Thanks for that.
I have always been interested in the scout concept. If Ruger's rifle does nothing else it has fired up major interest and may soon off help spawn a true "scout"/scope factory combo from a competing factory in the near future. I have adopted parts of the scout concept on my 375 H&H after a conventional scope gave me a hell of a black eye in a non-traditional hasty position. I mounted a Bushnell low level Red dot called a holosight with an eotech reticule. I have found this to be a near perfect solution to the heavy recoil of the gun. Gun writer said I think if people actually wanted to get serious about a bolt action Scout rifle they should ditch the prehistoric actions they are building them on.
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90 degree bolt rotations and 5-6 inch bolt throws are just plain silly. If you are going to run a bolt gun, run a fast one. Skip the front locking lugs specifically to shorten the bolt and bolt throw. Next change it from a 90 degree throw to 60 degrees or less. Make it so the bolt only has to move as far as necessary. Do you (or any reader) have a make suggestion? It appears at first glace that a sporterized Ishapore .308 enfield is the best route to take. But this refined idea is very intriguing. I immediately thought a Remington model 7 in 308 may be a good choice. Larue has some very good & low bore access extended eye relief SPR scope mounts. I also think the ACOGs in the 3-3.5x range have real merit within this concept if you ditch the forward mount. What make has a short throw bolt, beside Olympic rifles like Walther KKMs or Anshultz. While on the topic a strait pull action like used on the biathlon rifles may be a real winner in the scout concept as well . Bull pup semi autos like the RFB may be a great choice here. Thanks again for the great thread. |
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very interesting ideas, regarding 60 degree throw and shorter action. to play the devils advocate, I can see plenty of advantages for this set up, however, I worry this treads too closely to competing with the semi-auto platforms for purpose, where as the Ruger is certainly slower, but after owning one, seems to aim more for durability and reliability. For me, I wasn't aiming to do the "mad minute" with this gun, and the slower follow up shots don't concern me too much, but I do like that I have very few worries about this rifles robustness. If one was to aim for it, I think the Enfield action is the way to go, much sooner than the Mauser action used in the ruger. but there it is, speed vs. strength/reliability. |
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Originally Posted By BigMat:
very interesting ideas, regarding 60 degree throw and shorter action. to play the devils advocate, I can see plenty of advantages for this set up, however, I worry this treads too closely to competing with the semi-auto platforms for purpose, where as the Ruger is certainly slower, but after owning one, seems to aim more for durability and reliability. For me, I wasn't aiming to do the "mad minute" with this gun, and the slower follow up shots don't concern me too much, but I do like that I have very few worries about this rifles robustness. If one was to aim for it, I think the Enfield action is the way to go, much sooner than the Mauser action used in the ruger. but there it is, speed vs. strength/reliability. Although it can be argued that the Mauser is 'stronger' than the Enfield how often does action strength actually come into play unless you are planning on rechambering it? Reliability? The Enfield proved to be more reliable than the Mauser. One action which nobody on this side of the pond ever thinks about is the MAS 36. Extremely robust and simple with a very short bolt throw. It's surprisingly quick, very easy to strip and very reliable. Basically it was the end of military bolt gun technology and one of the best. But that's if we are talking about surplus. If money was not an option a Sako TRG-22 action would be impressive....... Probably the most bang for your buck though would be a No. 5 Jungle Carbine or a No. 4 converted into a carbine with an optic. |
What would Boxer do?
A dead whale or a stove boat.
A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
One action which nobody on this side of the pond ever thinks about is the MAS 36. Extremely robust and simple with a very short bolt throw. It's surprisingly quick, very easy to strip and very reliable. Basically it was the end of military bolt gun technology and one of the best. But that's if we are talking about surplus.. I agree. The MAS 36; picked one up about 8 years, or so, ago. Was thinking the same thing when I held it; paid about $60 for it and thought "this is a scout just waiting to happen". After shooting and handling it over the years I can't seem to do it. It is a very elegant rifle in design; not as smooth as a mauser but very efficient and somewhat spartan. Hard to describe really. Here are some pics for those not familiar. 
I love the bayonet and it's overall design; only the french could ad a touch of renaissance to a battle rifle. |
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Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
One action which nobody on this side of the pond ever thinks about is the MAS 36. Extremely robust and simple with a very short bolt throw. It's surprisingly quick, very easy to strip and very reliable. Basically it was the end of military bolt gun technology and one of the best. But that's if we are talking about surplus.. I agree. The MAS 36; picked one up about 8 years, or so, ago. Was thinking the same thing when I held it; paid about $60 for it and thought "this is a scout just waiting to happen". After shooting and handling it over the years I can't seem to do it. It is a very elegant rifle in design; not as smooth as a mauser but very efficient and somewhat spartan. Hard to describe really. Here are some pics for those not familiar. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/1mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/2mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/3mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/5mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/4mas36.jpg I love the bayonet and it's overall design; only the french could ad a touch of renaissance to a battle rifle. Probably not the best idea but I have a MAS 36 I picked up for $80 that was rechambered to 308. |
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Originally Posted By Gunwritr: Originally Posted By BigMat: very interesting ideas, regarding 60 degree throw and shorter action. to play the devils advocate, I can see plenty of advantages for this set up, however, I worry this treads too closely to competing with the semi-auto platforms for purpose, where as the Ruger is certainly slower, but after owning one, seems to aim more for durability and reliability. For me, I wasn't aiming to do the "mad minute" with this gun, and the slower follow up shots don't concern me too much, but I do like that I have very few worries about this rifles robustness. If one was to aim for it, I think the Enfield action is the way to go, much sooner than the Mauser action used in the ruger. but there it is, speed vs. strength/reliability. Although it can be argued that the Mauser is 'stronger' than the Enfield how often does action strength actually come into play unless you are planning on rechambering it? Reliability? The Enfield proved to be more reliable than the Mauser. One action which nobody on this side of the pond ever thinks about is the MAS 36. Extremely robust and simple with a very short bolt throw. It's surprisingly quick, very easy to strip and very reliable. Basically it was the end of military bolt gun technology and one of the best. But that's if we are talking about surplus. If money was not an option a Sako TRG-22 action would be impressive....... Probably the most bang for your buck though would be a No. 5 Jungle Carbine or a No. 4 converted into a carbine with an optic. What about a Mosin Nagant M38? |
SS17
Pack Larue Founding Hound
Pack Larue Founding Hound
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Originally Posted By SD307:
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
One action which nobody on this side of the pond ever thinks about is the MAS 36. Extremely robust and simple with a very short bolt throw. It's surprisingly quick, very easy to strip and very reliable. Basically it was the end of military bolt gun technology and one of the best. But that's if we are talking about surplus.. I agree. The MAS 36; picked one up about 8 years, or so, ago. Was thinking the same thing when I held it; paid about $60 for it and thought "this is a scout just waiting to happen". After shooting and handling it over the years I can't seem to do it. It is a very elegant rifle in design; not as smooth as a mauser but very efficient and somewhat spartan. Hard to describe really. Here are some pics for those not familiar. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/1mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/2mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/3mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/5mas36.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/4mas36.jpg I love the bayonet and it's overall design; only the french could ad a touch of renaissance to a battle rifle. Probably not the best idea but I have a MAS 36 I picked up for $80 that was rechambered to 308. Nothing wrong with that. The MAS 36 is still in frontline service with the French Army rechambered to .308 Win and rebuilt as sniper rifles. No problems at all handling .308....... |
What would Boxer do?
A dead whale or a stove boat.
A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By BigMat:
very interesting ideas, regarding 60 degree throw and shorter action. to play the devils advocate, I can see plenty of advantages for this set up, however, I worry this treads too closely to competing with the semi-auto platforms for purpose, where as the Ruger is certainly slower, but after owning one, seems to aim more for durability and reliability. For me, I wasn't aiming to do the "mad minute" with this gun, and the slower follow up shots don't concern me too much, but I do like that I have very few worries about this rifles robustness. If one was to aim for it, I think the Enfield action is the way to go, much sooner than the Mauser action used in the ruger. but there it is, speed vs. strength/reliability. Although it can be argued that the Mauser is 'stronger' than the Enfield how often does action strength actually come into play unless you are planning on rechambering it? Reliability? The Enfield proved to be more reliable than the Mauser. One action which nobody on this side of the pond ever thinks about is the MAS 36. Extremely robust and simple with a very short bolt throw. It's surprisingly quick, very easy to strip and very reliable. Basically it was the end of military bolt gun technology and one of the best. But that's if we are talking about surplus. If money was not an option a Sako TRG-22 action would be impressive....... Probably the most bang for your buck though would be a No. 5 Jungle Carbine or a No. 4 converted into a carbine with an optic. What about a Mosin Nagant M38? short and light but the bolt handle is placed too far forward and the action is usually clunky on the opening stroke. If you cut the bolt handle off and welded it back on farther back (have to slightly notch the receiver) it makes it a bit smoother to run. |
What would Boxer do?
A dead whale or a stove boat.
A dead whale or a stove boat.
|
Originally Posted By Gunwritr: Originally Posted By 45FMJoe: Originally Posted By Gunwritr: Originally Posted By BigMat: very interesting ideas, regarding 60 degree throw and shorter action. to play the devils advocate, I can see plenty of advantages for this set up, however, I worry this treads too closely to competing with the semi-auto platforms for purpose, where as the Ruger is certainly slower, but after owning one, seems to aim more for durability and reliability. For me, I wasn't aiming to do the "mad minute" with this gun, and the slower follow up shots don't concern me too much, but I do like that I have very few worries about this rifles robustness. If one was to aim for it, I think the Enfield action is the way to go, much sooner than the Mauser action used in the ruger. but there it is, speed vs. strength/reliability. Although it can be argued that the Mauser is 'stronger' than the Enfield how often does action strength actually come into play unless you are planning on rechambering it? Reliability? The Enfield proved to be more reliable than the Mauser. One action which nobody on this side of the pond ever thinks about is the MAS 36. Extremely robust and simple with a very short bolt throw. It's surprisingly quick, very easy to strip and very reliable. Basically it was the end of military bolt gun technology and one of the best. But that's if we are talking about surplus. If money was not an option a Sako TRG-22 action would be impressive....... Probably the most bang for your buck though would be a No. 5 Jungle Carbine or a No. 4 converted into a carbine with an optic. What about a Mosin Nagant M38? short and light but the bolt handle is placed too far forward and the action is usually clunky on the opening stroke. If you cut the bolt handle off and welded it back on farther back (have to slightly notch the receiver) it makes it a bit smoother to run. I was thinking since M38s are hard to find and M44s are plentiful ... I wonder what the diameter of the barrel underneath the M44 FSB/bayonet mount sleeve is. Imagine slipping an SVD FSB on it and pinning it. ATI polymer stock and a side scope mount drilled and tapped. You could do whatever you wanted to the bolt handle to include turning it down or moving it back as you suggested. |
SS17
Pack Larue Founding Hound
Pack Larue Founding Hound
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Gunwritr,
since we are sort of on the topic of the MAS 36; would you know of any sources for surplus French 7.62 x 51/.308 barrels that could be fitted to the MAS 36? Or maybe you might know who makes the barrels for the French military? My hesitation to converting the rifle to .308 is I want to leave the furniture and rifle intact. The best way is to find a .308 barrel in the same contour and length. |
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Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Gunwritr, since we are sort of on the topic of the MAS 36; would you know of any sources for surplus French 7.62 x 51/.308 barrels that could be fitted to the MAS 36? Or maybe you might know who makes the barrels for the French military? My hesitation to converting the rifle to .308 is I want to leave the furniture and rifle intact. The best way is to find a .308 barrel in the same contour and length. Probably the easiest way to go is to take the barrel on your rifle right now and simply use that. It's a .308 bore and you would just need to shorten the chamber end, rethread and rechamber. A good gunsmith could do it. I know of no source for surplus 7.62 barrels for the MAS unfortunately. I think it would be pretty easy though to find a suitable contour barrel blank and have a smith rebarrel it, but that could be pricey. Hope this helps! |
What would Boxer do?
A dead whale or a stove boat.
A dead whale or a stove boat.
|
Great writeup..... THANKS!
I have given lots of thought to the scout concept over the years, even toyed with different versions..... but as of right now, I just could not justify getting into a rifle that really doesnt do anything better than my ar10 carbine with ta33 acog on it..... Reliability being the only caveat. I have had one failure to eject in the last 3000 rounds..... that you may or may not have with the bolt action ( have had several failure to extract or feed in this same period with a M700, and one with my Savage M10, although MUCH lesser round counts.....more in the 100 or so.)....... so reliability is even suspect, when using the action under stress, short stroking a bolt is common....... 
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it." Thomas Paine, sept, 11, 1777
MoS #244
Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia" - The Fantastic Bastards!
MoS #244
Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia" - The Fantastic Bastards!
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Originally Posted By Pilk:
Great writeup..... THANKS! I have given lots of thought to the scout concept over the years, even toyed with different versions..... but as of right now, I just could not justify getting into a rifle that really doesnt do anything better than my ar10 carbine with ta33 acog on it..... Reliability being the only caveat. I have had one failure to eject in the last 3000 rounds..... that you may or may not have with the bolt action ( have had several failure to extract or feed in this same period with a M700, and one with my Savage M10, although MUCH lesser round counts.....more in the 100 or so.)....... so reliability is even suspect, when using the action under stress, short stroking a bolt is common....... regarding reliability, one thing to keep in mind is the difference between military and sporting actions. Almost all military bolt guns featured some form of controlled round feeding although it could differ greatly from design to design such as Nagant's interrupter compared to Mauser's extractor. |
What would Boxer do?
A dead whale or a stove boat.
A dead whale or a stove boat.
|
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Gunwritr, since we are sort of on the topic of the MAS 36; would you know of any sources for surplus French 7.62 x 51/.308 barrels that could be fitted to the MAS 36? Or maybe you might know who makes the barrels for the French military? My hesitation to converting the rifle to .308 is I want to leave the furniture and rifle intact. The best way is to find a .308 barrel in the same contour and length. Probably the easiest way to go is to take the barrel on your rifle right now and simply use that. It's a .308 bore and you would just need to shorten the chamber end, rethread and rechamber. A good gunsmith could do it. I know of no source for surplus 7.62 barrels for the MAS unfortunately. I think it would be pretty easy though to find a suitable contour barrel blank and have a smith rebarrel it, but that could be pricey. Hope this helps! Thanks, I'll look into it. |
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Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By Pilk:
Great writeup..... THANKS! I have given lots of thought to the scout concept over the years, even toyed with different versions..... but as of right now, I just could not justify getting into a rifle that really doesnt do anything better than my ar10 carbine with ta33 acog on it..... Reliability being the only caveat. I have had one failure to eject in the last 3000 rounds..... that you may or may not have with the bolt action ( have had several failure to extract or feed in this same period with a M700, and one with my Savage M10, although MUCH lesser round counts.....more in the 100 or so.)....... so reliability is even suspect, when using the action under stress, short stroking a bolt is common....... regarding reliability, one thing to keep in mind is the difference between military and sporting actions. Almost all military bolt guns featured some form of controlled round feeding although it could differ greatly from design to design such as Nagant's interrupter compared to Mauser's extractor. Agree with you 100% on the extraction issue,...... but still short stroking doesnt matter what extraction method is employed...... the operator....the trigger nut, is the weak link..... thats what I am getting at....with my ar10 the trigger nut is removed from the working of the action under stress.... make sense???? BTW.... I put another 120 flawless rounds downrange today with the ar10, in a friggin' torrential downpour, prone in the mud, on the move, from cover.....ect....hard training day..... "if it aint rainin' you aint trainin'" |
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it." Thomas Paine, sept, 11, 1777
MoS #244
Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia" - The Fantastic Bastards!
MoS #244
Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia" - The Fantastic Bastards!
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Originally Posted By Pilk: Originally Posted By Gunwritr: Originally Posted By Pilk: Great writeup..... THANKS! I have given lots of thought to the scout concept over the years, even toyed with different versions..... but as of right now, I just could not justify getting into a rifle that really doesnt do anything better than my ar10 carbine with ta33 acog on it..... Reliability being the only caveat. I have had one failure to eject in the last 3000 rounds..... that you may or may not have with the bolt action ( have had several failure to extract or feed in this same period with a M700, and one with my Savage M10, although MUCH lesser round counts.....more in the 100 or so.)....... so reliability is even suspect, when using the action under stress, short stroking a bolt is common....... regarding reliability, one thing to keep in mind is the difference between military and sporting actions. Almost all military bolt guns featured some form of controlled round feeding although it could differ greatly from design to design such as Nagant's interrupter compared to Mauser's extractor. Agree with you 100% on the extraction issue,...... but still short stroking doesnt matter what extraction method is employed...... the operator....the trigger nut, is the weak link..... thats what I am getting at....with my ar10 the trigger nut is removed from the working of the action under stress.... make sense???? BTW.... I put another 120 flawless rounds downrange today with the ar10, in a friggin' torrential downpour, prone in the mud, on the move, from cover.....ect....hard training day..... "if it aint rainin' you aint trainin'" I don't think round for round reliability is really where this rifle comes into its own. Human error will always exist, especially as you move away from technology and more toward user manipulation, as every action I take is an action I can screw up. I think the reliability issues is better defined as "robustness," due to fewer moving parts and steel construction, as opposed to many moving parts and partially aluminum construction. I think where the Ruger rates over the AR10 (this being said as a guy who owns one and used to hunt with a guy who ran AR-10s and now wants a Ruger) is I have yet to find an AR-10 platform under 10 pounds finished, ever. This may not be an issue for you, and if so, I say rock and roll and use the extra firepower the AR-10 brings to the table. For me, I don't worry that much about the reduced rate/volume of fire, but I sure do appreciate the extra pounds out of my hands after a day or more in the mountains. I guess I look at rate of fire like this too, a guy with a rifle in his hands will get lead on target faster than a guy with a bigger gun on his back. And those seconds, from threat ID to lead on target, are the most important, much more so than the time between round one and round two. Not to mention, your AR-10 is at least a $2000 rifle unless you stole something, a Ruger with a Leupold scout runs in at about half that number. I like my money in my pocket and my rifle in my hands.  |
| no dispute with anything you said..... my rifle is right at 10 pounds.... and yea I have more than 2K in it.... but I already have it.....and LOVE it.... that said if anyone wanted to donate me a ruger and optic, I certainly wouldnt feel undergunned..... |
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it." Thomas Paine, sept, 11, 1777
MoS #244
Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia" - The Fantastic Bastards!
MoS #244
Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia" - The Fantastic Bastards!
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Nominal barrel length: 0.48 meter (19 inches) Cooper uses "nominal" twice in his definition. Nominal is quite possibly the most ambiguous word in the english language. It can be minimal, small, figurative, less than, meaningless, inconsequential, etc. Examples in use would include "The club has a nominal fee for entry"; "The candidate for office is a nominal choice"; "The queen of England is the nominal head of state". You notice Cooper did not use the word "ideal" here. That is because barrel length actually effects performance. I am sure barrel length was a hotly debated topic and I assume that most in the conference followed the 1980's conventional wisdom that barrels should be no less than 20" in length. Cooper was less dogmatic about barrel length; but was more concerned with practical results. I personally believe 19" was a compromise and his choice of "nominal" allows the barrel to be a little shorter or longer than 19" and most cases to err towards longer. Currently we know that shorter barrels do not effect practical results in a defensive rifle. So Cooper was yet brilliant again. 19" is "nominal" His target ballistics were a 150gr 308 bullet @ 2700FPS. At the time, a 19" barrel was the minimum length that could make the number. |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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Great discussion. I do think Cooper was actually more flexible on his definitions than modern advocates of the scout. He did emphasize one thing all along in both his pistols and rifles - he was dead set on larger bores/ heavier calibers. Again context of the times. The AR was not America’s most popular rifle - it was relatively uncommon in civilian hands. Bullets heavier than 55 grains and twist rates to stabilize them were not part of the scene, and some possibly suitable calibers for the scout had not been invented yet. Detachable magazine bolt actions were also not at all common He usually called the 223 a “ poodle shooter” not suitable for general use. If he were alive today would he embrace heavy bullet 223 loads with greater long range hit probability? How about 9mm with better designed bullets to enhance terminal performance? We will never know 308 was one of the most common calibers available world wide and cheap surplus ammo was everywhere at the time. He considered DA/SA and striker fired pistols solution to nonexistent problems. I fully bought into the scout, buying one of the early steyr scouts. It has been unchanged since purchase, and offers exactly what Cooper sought. It has retained zero for years, and I can hand it to anyone reasonably competent in rifle shooting and first round hits at 200 yard targets seem automatic. |
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Originally Posted By Shaffer: Those with detachable magazines are right in the sweet spot to carry the rifle. Most seem to get too much stuff hanging off the gun that could be simpler. The older Ruger Frontier got it right. The standard 5 round steyr mags are flush fit, no problems there. I agree with the too much stuff hanging off the gun- a very common problem especially with AR’s- we all probably remember the picture of the Asian guy with countless things hanging off the AR from years ago. In my experience having even the light handy M4 issued- then add buis red dot laser vertical grip flashlight might as well carry an M14 at similar weight! |
| There’s a difference between a day defensive rifle and a 24 hr offensive rifle. Those enhancements do add weight. Always a trade off. They weren’t a factor when Cooper designed his rifle |
De Oppresso Liber
Iraq: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09,15,16,22-26'
Afghanistan: 09,10,11,14,17,-21'
Iraq: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09,15,16,22-26'
Afghanistan: 09,10,11,14,17,-21'
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Lots of questions being asked in this thread will never be answered--Cooper's dead. OTOH, Cooper left behind a "Great Deal" of his thoughts and writings on many subjects, not least the Scout Project. A simple inquiry on Amazon will reveal a great many books written by Cooper. Strongly suggest that reading the books from early works to later works might be beneficial in demonstrating how Cooper's outlook changed in some regards and stayed the same in other regards. Now, don't get me wrong, but I strongly suspect that most folks quoting Cooper on one thing or another have not completely read His full works. Jeff Cooper was a brilliant man, ahead of his time. He singlehandedly changed firearm usage within his lifetime. Cooper could not foresee technological changes; nobody can. OTOH, his general Principals are timeless. That said, and including current technology, I'm betting on Cooper to come out right in the end. |
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How did this thread get resurrected from 2011? Anyway, Cooper or not, I like the idea of a general purpose / hunting carbine. Doesn’t matter if it’s a .308 with a LER scope:  A semi auto with a RDS:  Or a lighter, smaller caliber like a ubiquitous .223, but with a LVPO:  Getting out and shooting to figure out what works for you will always be a smarter play than arguing about it online. Even my Steyr Scout is a Gen2, because even Steyr recognized that sometimes, ideas need to be updated a bit. |
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Originally Posted By raf: That said, and including current technology, I'm betting on Cooper to come out right in the end. Originally Posted By raf: That said, and including current technology, I'm betting on Cooper to come out right in the end. Having read much of COL Cooper's work, he had some very bold takes but I've always seen him as an evolutionary kind of guy. As technology improves, I would contend that the late Cooper would have udated his viewpoints, but I do agree, the vast majority if his principles are still very valid today such as his "Principles of Personal Defense" I know iron sights are a requirement and I like this quote regarding the ghost ring sights: The ghost-ring is not quicker than the telescopic sight, when the latter is properly used, but it is distinctly quicker than any open sight, even the Express Sight from Africa. It is a Good Thing, and should be more widely appreciated, but considering the general nature of firearms design progress over the last half century, I do not expect much in this regard. We have awfully good firearms, cartridges and sights today, but we do not do any better with them in the field than our grandfathers did. It is always the shooter, not the weapon that makes a difference. Jeff Cooper’s Commentaries Vol.9, No.3 March 2001 Originally Posted By Seven-Shooter: How did this thread get resurrected from 2011? Anyway, Cooper or not, I like the idea of a general purpose / hunting carbine. The late Jeff (Colonel) Cooper is often resurrected for discussions ROCK6 |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
Close Inspection of Coopers Scout Rifle Definition (Page 2 of 2)
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