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Originally Posted By Spartikis: The only thing a FRT or similar device doesn’t get you is bragging rights. There is and always will be a difference between full auto and some sort of trick trigger that allows you to fire semi auto really fast and there is and always will be people willing to pay top dollar to say they own a true machine gun. fortunately a man figured it out, well, i figured it out thats my new force reset 3 position in action beside a gov rifle you wouldnt be able to tell the difference except legally i am single function of the trigger in accordance with us supreme court ruling in garland v cargill std hammer pins std 3 position selector you can use any 3 position selector you like as long as the one you use will run a gov rifle itll work perfectly with mine  MIL-SPEC 3 POSITION S.F.T. SYSTEM |
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ARIZONAREGULATOR.COM
“A Law repugnant to the Constitution is void.” Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803) -
Garland V. Cargill 602 U.S. __ , 7 (2024)
ARIZONAREGULATOR.COM
“A Law repugnant to the Constitution is void.” Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803) -
Garland V. Cargill 602 U.S. __ , 7 (2024)
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Just checked this for the first time in a month. Had no idea this thread took off like it did. I'm still up in the air about selling my Sendra. I can see a difference in shooting the SS and the RR. But it's nominal. The RR is definitely more reliable. Once in a while, if I'm doing bursts with the SS, I get a dead trigger. With the 22 kit, it'll just stop firing on occasion. I can pull the trigger, and it'll run again. None of the happens with the RR. The only issues I have with it are either the gun just gets too dirty, or ammo issues. Since this gun is really just a toy, I'm still thinking pretty hard about selling it. I have a registered M11/9 and Valmet M78 in 7.62x39 also. I can't picture I'd ever sell either of those, but who knows what inventions or laws will change. Thanks for all the feedback. Good info for thought. I do feel a little safer hanging on to it until I figure out what to do. |
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bruh44, I own a RR Colt M16a1, a FNC carbine w/registered sear, and a Wilson HK94 to MP5 double push pin RR. I would conceivably sell the FNC and MP5, but no way I would sell the M16a1 as the M16a1 is very versatile, reliable, and modular. It can easily become a lot of different weapons. RCA |
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Originally Posted By kingoftheriver: P.S. I have a AS Designs FRT MP5 lower kit on backorder for a HK34 I had built. One day, if I'm lucky, they might actually ship it. RCA I haven't stepped into the MP5 SS world yet. I've been wanting to but all my money has been going to work on my house. I have at least 10 uppers for my Sendra. But they all work with the SS so far. I'm probably going to hold off for a few months at least. Someone raised a good point. A lot of states are going to ban these. That might push a few more into the auto world. |
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Originally Posted By kingoftheriver: P.S. I have a AS Designs FRT MP5 lower kit on backorder for a HK34 I had built. One day, if I'm lucky, they might actually ship it. RCA I picked up a S/A Mp5 because "why not", and decided to get in line with the AS Designs as well. FRTs/super safeties coming across multiple platforms this year. The theory of this thread spills onto the machine gun market. But I'll echo what I posted on pg1 that it's primarily the entry level machine guns that are in that window. I don't think the bottom will fall out, a rare gun holds value because it's not easily obtainable. For the ones that want something realistically close:  Edit. I'm surprised there isn't a similar thread in armory>machine guns |
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I too am surprised there isn't a thread in the machine gun forum. There are several active threads about FRTs on HKPRO. I ordered one because I already have a RR MP5 and don't want to get a transferable sear for my HK34, although doing so would open up possibilities. On the other hand I am not fond of 7.62x51 full auto and with my M16a1 and FNC w/transferable sear, I have 5.56mm NATO covered. RCA |
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P.S. If I ever get it, I will start a thread under the machine gun forum, and I hope others will as well. As for reliability, I am hoping for the best but prepared for having to tune it to make it run properly. That is how my luck runs. If enough people request, a FRT forum could be a good idea. RCA |
 Failed To Load Title I’d never be able to afford a real MP5. But I can afford a SS MP5 that does 99% of what the real thing does. |
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Originally Posted By kingoftheriver: If enough people request, a FRT forum could be a good idea. You're in luck. |
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Are there other forums where there some unofficial List of what System FRTs are being worked upon? Can we have a Sticky in that forum but its just intended for AR15 under that forum? We know some systems can be modified to use AR15 triggers but others are going out on their own. Can we have a "Who FRTed?" List  -MP-5 - What about the Rifle caliber 223/308 HKs that use the same/similar grip frame????[/li] -G36 - There were AR15 trigger groups previously - would think its possible? -Glock I swear it doesn't work but videos say otherwise -AKs - there are several out there some work much better than others and none are drop in -Kriss Vector - Evidently one in Development -Shotguns - People attempting conversions of rifle FRTs into AR and AK based shotguns [/ul] |
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Originally Posted By cherenkov: Are there other forums where there some unofficial List of what System FRTs are being worked upon? Can we have a Sticky in that forum but its just intended for AR15 under that forum? We know some systems can be modified to use AR15 triggers but others are going out on their own. Can we have a "Who FRTed?" List Write up a list and ask Aimless to sticky it I guess? I agree that forum should be moved from the AR15 board to the Armory board. |
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Originally Posted By cherenkov: Are there other forums where there some unofficial List of what System FRTs are being worked upon? Can we have a Sticky in that forum but its just intended for AR15 under that forum? We know some systems can be modified to use AR15 triggers but others are going out on their own. Can we have a "Who FRTed?" List -MP-5 - What about the Rifle caliber 223/308 HKs that use the same/similar grip frame????[/li] -G36 - There were AR15 trigger groups previously - would think its possible? -Glock I swear it doesn't work but videos say otherwise -AKs - there are several out there some work much better than others and none are drop in -Kriss Vector - Evidently one in Development -Shotguns - People attempting conversions of rifle FRTs into AR and AK based shotguns [/ul] Let me know when they have one for a MK46 or MK48. I’ll even take a 240B or M60E6 |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By lightguy: Did the dozens of 427 Cobra replicas (better in many ways) affect the price of an original Shelby 427 Cobra ? Spoiler alert; NOPE. In fact they increased the awareness and thus demand for the real thing. I think ar conversions and MAC's are going to go down in price. |
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I'm not sure how accurate the info behind this site is, but it seems to show prices still trending up in general, but a downtick on the last couple data points on the M16A1. http://machinegunpriceguide.com/html/machine_guns.html 
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Now that i have had more time running an FRT. No way would I pay full premium for NFA. I agree. They're practically indistinguishable. The only thing keeping prices up are those in restricted states that allow MG's but not FRT's, and the collectors with deep pockets playing in the MG world. |
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Originally Posted By mattdoc: I'm not sure how accurate the info behind this site is, but it seems to show prices still trending up in general, but a downtick on the last couple data points on the M16A1. http://machinegunpriceguide.com/html/machine_guns.html https://i.postimg.cc/63NGCJ3F/values-db-M16A11.gif The site is only showing data through Q3 of 2025. I think it was May of 2025 when the ruling came out allowing FRTs, they didn’t start shipping until mid summer, late summer was when all the YouTubers started posting reviews. Probably will be another 6+ months to a years before we can really know how it will impact the transferable MG market. Prices do appear to have seen a 10-20% decline. Initially I thought that might be related to the economy, def less disposable income for the avg Joe, then again the avg MG buyer probably an above average income earner. Only time will tell. I’m certainly not planning on making any new purchases and will be watching prices closely. Most of what I own is worth 2-3x what I paid for it so prices will have to dip quite a bit before I’ll even consider sell and even if they do, I will probably always keep at least one transferable MG incase the restrictions or FRTs change even if means taking a financial loss. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By cherenkov: Hypothetically - When the regime changes, and they outright ban FRTs you will possibly have way more interest/demand of Ex-FRT addicts looking for those machine guns. potentially hypothetically, there is a low but non- zero chance existing units will get stamped, like arm braces were. Considering how low compliance was with the free SBR stamp, all the more reason for the potential. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: potentially hypothetically, there is a low but non- zero chance existing units will get stamped, like arm braces were. Considering how low compliance was with the free SBR stamp, all the more reason for the potential. No one has a crystal ball. The ATF and powers that be have shown they have no problem banning items that were previously legal and not entertaining the idea of grandfathering anything. The choice is usually surrender the items or destroy it. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: No one has a crystal ball. The ATF and powers that be have shown they have no problem banning items that were previously legal and not entertaining the idea of grandfathering anything. The choice is usually surrender the items or destroy it. Now it will take congress to amend the law. |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: I think we're pretty well past that point given the court cases and legal agreements that have already happened. ATF tried to declare them illegal machineguns and failed. Now it will take congress to amend the law. It will be likely on Day 2 of a Democrat led house and Senate - Look at what happened in Virginia with suppressors - normally a suppressor friendly state first item of business was to create a "prohibitive" tax on suppressors of $500 each to kill the $0 stamp momentum. As if there are no "real" political priorities - gun control remains a a top action for the left eve |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: I think we're pretty well past that point given the court cases and legal agreements that have already happened. ATF tried to declare them illegal machineguns and failed. Now it will take congress to amend the law. I would disagree that the legality of FRTs is anywhere close to 100% settled case law at this point and that the only remaining option for the Federal government to restrict FRTs is an act of Congress. If/when the the executive branch changes hands into Democrat control and the DOJ gets a new anti-gun Attorney General there is nothing to stop the DOJ from rescinding the settlement agreement with Rare Breed. (I would personally be pretty surprised if Dem anti-2A led DOJ didn't rescind the settlement agreement) There is nothing in the settlement agreement that prevents a future DOJ from going after FRTs for traditional handguns as they are specifically excluded from the agreement. There are also other legal exit ramps built into the settlement agreement for the government, one of which is that Rare Breed must enforce its patent which is a pretty ambiguous requirement. All a future DOJ would have to say is that there are other manufacturers continuously violating Rare Breeds patent (which is not a high bar to argue) so Rare Breed didn't uphold their part of the agreement and that the US DOJ is revoking the settlement agreement and re-establishing the position that all FRTs are machineguns. Now of course this action by a future DOJ would be almost guaranteed to end up back in court. The two historical primary Federal cases regarding FRTs were the National Association for Gun Rights v. Garland which originated in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Texas (which ruled against the government) of which was appealed to the U.S. Fifth District Circuit Court of Appeals by the government but the appeal was dropped by the DOJ as part of the settlement agreement before there was any 5th Circuit Appeals Court ruling. The other case, United States v. Rare Breed Triggers originated in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York (which ruled in favor of the government) of which Rare Breed appealed that decision but that appeal was also never fully decided by the 2nd Circuit Appeals Court either as the settlement agreement had the government agree to drop the prosecution of Rare Breed ending the case there. So technically today to the best of my knowledge there isn't a single US District Court of Appeals ruling affirming that FRTs are indeed not machineguns and all you legally have at the Federal level is one lower District Court ruling in Texas siding with FRTs, one lower District Court ruling in New York siding against FRTs, and a settlement agreement between the Trump DOJ and a single FRT manufacturer that could be torn up by a future Dem DOJ within 5 minutes of a new AG being sworn in. I don't see anything that would stop the DOJ from going down this path of rescinding the settlement agreement, going back to Court, and/or if they chose to during the meantime initiating criminal enforcement action in Districts other than the 5th Circuit where the lower district court ruling is still technically on FRTs side. Now I can somewhat understand why the current Trump DOJ decided to settle in light of the outcome in the lower 5th Circuit Court and the oral argument in the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals which seemed to trend against the government. The Trump DOJ probably didn't want to risk another Court loss and/or a split US District Court of Appeals decisions which could trigger a SCOTUS review in light of the Cargill case outcome. To me it looks like the Trump DOJ decided it would be probably better to bow out now in order to fight another day when the political winds may be more in their favor and/or just allow Congress to take action after a high profile mass shooting takes place with an FRT equipped firearm. However a future more anti-gun DOJ may not see things the same way and is willing to risk an additional District Court loss and/or a split US Court of Appeals decision and challenge SCOTUS to grant cert to another rapid fire accelerator device case (and could rule differently as you only would have to flip two justices). Maybe SCOTUS reviews the case but doesn't grant cert for full Court review but issues a judgement vacating the lower District courts FRT win, or SCOTUS punts and leave a split decision in place with FRT legality in a muddled gray area depending upon District. Also keep in mind the Federal government has a lot of power and puts people in prison for all sorts of legally gray area stuff where they effectively couldn't afford the defense or appeal. As example the auto-key card guy is in prison for effectively selling etched pictures of a Linking Links, the AR15 "wall hanger" DIAS guy also went to prison over 3D printed plastic bits, the Diversified Machine solvent trap guy was going to prison for selling tubes and cups (but killed himself first). There are scores of J6 defendants that ended up in prison for years that did nothing more than show up to protest and walked into a government building unimpeded. The government could implement this same shadow enforcement policy and start arresting small time FRT manufacturers and the cost of litigation for defense is so high and potential prison terms so onerous if they lose that defendants settle for a 3 to 5 year term. Many other folks who have jobs, families, etc. see a conviction or settlement resulting in years in prison and decide they don't want to be next test case over a rapid fire trigger device and even if they win and stay out of prison they still end up broke with years of their life gone fighting the government. For bumpstocks I would agree the case law is pretty settled at this point via the SCOTUS Garland v Cargill outcome and the only real available option for the government at this point to restrict bump stocks is to pass new legislation. However, FRTs are still a long legal way from being in that same position and there are no guarantees that FRTs future judicial outcome if pushed forward would be similar to bumpstocks outcome either. There are also a bunch of State level legal skirmishes ongoing as well regarding the multitude of States that have enacted FRT bans themselves that could also influence any future Federal action. Just my two cents anyway |
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I shot both a Rare Breed and "Hoffman" type sliding FRT this weekend. IMO the price difference for the Rare breed is money well spent especially if its a "go to" weapon. Screwing around getting the sliding safety to FRT in a pressure situation seems impossible. The rare breed even then had a hick-up where it only fired semi for awhile then it magically straightened out. Once it functioned normally it was truly impressive. I have two registered M16s and may sell one just to cover my butt financially. Same with a pair of MP5 registered trigger groups. FRTs are now being made for them. Dont waste your money on a WOT. They go out of spec very quickly. |
Not according to Forgotten Weapons: Will FRTs Kill Machine Gun Values? (feat. DIAS) |
| I own a legal machine gun. and several FRT's, super safeties. They all shoot well. But here is the gotchya. The Dems have already stated they will ban them and make them a federal felony as soon as they get back in charge. Which they will in a couple years.. So ya, A shit load of people will own them but will put them in hiding in fear of losing their gun rights. Then we will be back to NFA machineguns pretty much. I feel like this has happened before when the hellfire trigger was a thing 30yrs aga. |
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