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Posted: 3/22/2025 11:52:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bruh44][Edited]
| I’m considering selling my Sendra auto lower. The super safeties work just as well when properly tuned but cost less than $100 a piece. Have you all noticed a change in the auto market because of this? |
| Was at PSA's The Gathering this weekend and a company had their version of a machined Hoffman SS. $100 and I saw multiple people buy 10 on the spot with cash. They sold 150 yesterday and today's attendance was double.... |
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Originally Posted By cherenkov: I would say if they proliferate they certainly will. However I think its a matter of time before laws are made specifically to ban them as once they are out in numbers someone deranged will do something bad with one and everyone else will pay for that sin. FWIW, the internet tells me that such devices are already banned in twenty three states, including where I reside. And as federal law is generally considered a floor, not a ceiling, I believe that it would take a change in the respective state law to remove such a ban. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Originally Posted By bruh44: I’m considering selling my Sendra auto lower. The super safeties work just as well when properly tuned but cost less than $100 a piece. Have you all noticed a change in the auto market because of this? its weird that every gun board seems to have this same question |
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The only thing a FRT or similar device doesn’t get you is bragging rights. There is and always will be a difference between full auto and some sort of trick trigger that allows you to fire semi auto really fast and there is and always will be people willing to pay top dollar to say they own a true machine gun. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By SecondAmend: FWIW, the internet tells me that such devices are already banned in twenty three states, including where I reside. And as federal law is generally considered a floor, not a ceiling, I believe that it would take a change in the respective state law to remove such a ban. MHO, YMMV, etc. Originally Posted By SecondAmend: Originally Posted By cherenkov: I would say if they proliferate they certainly will. However I think its a matter of time before laws are made specifically to ban them as once they are out in numbers someone deranged will do something bad with one and everyone else will pay for that sin. FWIW, the internet tells me that such devices are already banned in twenty three states, including where I reside. And as federal law is generally considered a floor, not a ceiling, I believe that it would take a change in the respective state law to remove such a ban. MHO, YMMV, etc. Are you actually in Michigan? I don't think those are banned here. |
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Originally Posted By stevec223: Just curious, where are the FRTs available for 100 bucks? I see some 2to three times that Am I looking in the wrong place? |
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I dont think it will. Guys with enough money for full auto want the real deal for one. Another thing is FRTs are banned in I think 14 states now...some of which NFA full auto is good to go...even Florida has fallen and banned FRTs. Also, it's only going to take 1 event with one of these the media latches on and boom, new federal legislation gets passed. Right now it's freedom days, enjoy it, but for how long who knows. And yeah, let's say they ban them, there are thousands and thousands out there, but those guys won't be able the openly use them like the NFA guys will still be able to. Last, they work awesome don't get me wrong, but they are not as smooth, and rate of fire can fluctuate, and they are more prone to mechanical failures etc. The poors are gonna say just as good and claim the MG market will crash...but they ain't buying MGs anyway, so they have no effect the market. The rich boomers are gonna say it's a cheap novelty and not as good...but they will also buy them and use them to keep rounds off their precious safe queen colts |
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: The only thing a FRT or similar device doesn’t get you is bragging rights. There is and always will be a difference between full auto and some sort of trick trigger that allows you to fire semi auto really fast and there is and always will be people willing to pay top dollar to say they own a true machine gun. Or those not willing to pay top dollar yet still have a true MG - think Glock switches. 
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I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
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Originally Posted By ptaylor: Have you shot both? I have and they do not, at least in an M16/AR platform they don't. I quit saving for an RR after I used and well tuned FRT. |
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In the past week, I have seen a steel RDIAS sell for $46k, a non-Colt RR for $28k, a DLO 1919 for $26k, and a Lage M11/9 for $15.5k. Those are not discounted prices. They are, in fact, fairly strong. So even in what is being labeled a slow market, it doesn’t appear that realized prices are being affected. That is not to say that there aren’t some who feel the other options are “good enough” and thus have lost interest in automatic weapons. I would guess that is a fairly sizable number of people. But I doubt whether or not all of those guys were ever serious buyers in the first place. A few — as evidenced in this thread — surely were. Enough to affect market pricing? Not a chance. There is also more to transferable MGs and their ownership than just function. The same can be said for most luxury items. The bottom line is that the number of potential buyers and sellers (and owners) of transferables has always been extremely small compared with the number of other gun owners in the country. Those who want them will continue to buy them. Those who don’t or can’t will find alternatives. And the MG market will continue on just like it always has. |
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Originally Posted By d16man: Was at PSA's The Gathering this weekend and a company had their version of a machined Hoffman SS. $100 and I saw multiple people buy 10 on the spot with cash. They sold 150 yesterday and today's attendance was double.... I hate I missed that booth. I was there this past Friday and would’ve like to have picked one up. |
| I have my sbr ar set up with a super safety and it is running smooth and trouble free.Have also shot other ARs with lightning links and the feel is the same as far as firing.Thet can be had for cheap but also i see alot of people install them with no clue who just do hack installs and like to grind away on upper and lower to make them work. |
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I have an Oly/SGW RR and I wouldn't sell it for the FRT. The FRT works but my SGW works well also. It took some fine tuning but the WOT and SS works but is finicky. |
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If the prices are lowering its probably a good time to buy a real legit one. Here is an opinion - So when these get banned you have now tens of thousands of new "rapidfire" "addicts: Those addicts when dry will need to fill their new addiction which will drive prices even higher. You know how NFA addiction is a serious problem. It starts with a low price "introductory" suppressor, SBR and then your hooked working your way to more serious NFA items like pre-86 machineguns. Some even go Full "Breaking Bad" and cook their own with an SOT. Why don't I see more public service announcements for NFA addiction  |
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Originally Posted By Princeton: And maybe takes Semi auto “assault weapons” down with them? it is a possibility since they know they can't ban the device as the legal definition of machine-gun and just go re-writing regulations and definitions. Think long term - maybe even a few presidential terms out - its a left controlled house and presidency. |
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Im interested I like binary and consider its inherent ability to throttle up and down based on the setting, underappreciated. but they are expensive and have their nuances. The SS is a pushbuttin interface, that I don't care for- and requires a trigger tail modification I'd rather not mess with. If I can get a 3-positiin conventional lever, for the price points mentioned, I'm interested. And yes, these will be heavily banned on astate level, and eventually Federal. And when they are, so too will binaries, which will be caught in that dragnet. Just how it's going to play. Also, don't be so confident the USSC won't call these MG's. But probably not any time soon. That trajectory is closer to a decade out, if it happens at all. With more likely route of prohibition being specific legislature bans. Which will happen quickly in Democrate states, slower if ever in Red and Fed (and WTF Florida?) One scheme that may materialize, is the SBR/armbrace path - where people were able to get NFA stamps by already having one, and make real SBR's for free and with reduced bullshit (that was the smart play - sorry if that rages you). There's a low chance that could repeat. Pretty low odds, but not zero. |
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Originally Posted By BMad316: Sadly, the red coat Republicans in Florida have made FRT’s illegal, transferable full autos are still legal. The Hughes amendment was signed by Ronald Regan. Despite their illusion of support for the 2A republican law makers are no more comfortable with civilians owning firearms than democrats. They are rich elites who do everything they can to avoid interacting with the unwashed masses. The difference is their voting base demands the right to own firearms so if they want to get elected and stay elected they have to support the 2A. They have always been pro-hunting and that was the narrative for decades. You want a low capacity, limited range firearm for hunting small game animals? Sure I suppose that’s fine and will give you the illusion of freedom. The NRA and law makers drug their feet when it came to accepting AR15s and modern sporting rifles but eventually the voice of the citizens was strong enough and they gave in. But republicans still actively work to oppose machine gun and similar rapid fire device ownership. And they will continue to due so to until enough people speak up. If enough people demand ownership of MGs it could happen. When soccer moms are protesting in front of capital buildings for the right to own a machine gun the law makers will be forced to capitulate or be replaced by someone who will. I don’t see anything changing right now. Machine ownership is just such a niche group of firearm owners. There’s 450+ million firearms and 180,000 MGs. That’s 2,500 regular firearms for 1 MG. Most people could go to the range every week for their entire lives and never cross paths with someone who owned and transferable MG. But the fastest route to change is getting FRTs into the hands of as many law abiding firearms owners as possible. Get people used to the sound, operation and experience of shooting full auto on a regular basis. They will ask questions, and eventually demand their rights be returned. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: The Hughes amendment was signed by Ronald Regan. Despite their illusion of support for the 2A republican law makers are no more comfortable with civilians owning firearms than democrats. They are rich elites who do everything they can to avoid interacting with the unwashed masses. The difference is their voting base demands the right to own firearms so if they want to get elected and stay elected they have to support the 2A. They have always been pro-hunting and that was the narrative for decades. The NRA and law makers drug their feet when it came to accepting AR15s and modern sporting rifles but now centrally the voice of the citizens was strong enough and they gave in. But republicans still actively work to oppose machine gun and similar rapid fire component ownership. And they will continue to due to until enough people speak up. When enough people demand ownership of MGs it could happen. When soccer moms are protesting in frontof capital buildings for the right to own a machine gun the law makers will be forced to capitulate or be replaced by someone who will. I don’t see anything changing right now. But the fastest route to that is getting FRTs into the hands of as many law abiding firearms owners as possible. Machine Gun ownership in the 80s was not as widely understood nor enjoyed as it is today. Having lived in both eras, the internet has helped us better understand and appreciate machineguns to some extent video games have to. Regan and other republicans were still fighting for "traditional" gun rights (trying not to use the Elmer F word) as in the "right to hunt" The NRA was not interested to fight for "evil" machineguns. In the 80s more people got their impressions of guns in general but also machineguns from watching Miami Vice and of course in truth deaths from machineguns were widely exaggerated but there was no opposition communications to the larger voice of the TV news and entertainment sectors. Machineguns were heavily associated with drug dealers and the widening drug use problems in the USA. They were just bad and used every few seconds by drug dealers. Cops didn't carry AR15s in the car, shotgun and even revolvers gave the impression police cannot deal with well armed gunmen anymore. Help - think of the Children! All we need is another even and its "Think of the children" mode for all government. However - Today people are exposed to full autos from video games at an early age which only wets the appetites of gun interest. Mass shootings are unfortunately more commonplace and not as shocking as they once were. Opposing voices with facts can counter the false narratives and we have better gun right organizations . What is key is keeping the federal courts balanced with those that better understand the 2nd ammendment and to keep pushing in the courts. We have made some headway but more to go. |
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Originally Posted By ptaylor: Have you shot both? I have and they do not, at least in an M16/AR platform they don't. I quit saving for an RR after I used a well tuned FRT. Originally Posted By ptaylor: Originally Posted By Ryo: I doubt it. FRT has a different feel than the real thing. Have you shot both? I have and they do not, at least in an M16/AR platform they don't. I quit saving for an RR after I used a well tuned FRT. It's slightly different, but not anywhere near $25k+ worth of difference IMO. |
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Nah. I work with a respected NFA Dealer and legit full-auto is just an entirely different clientele. Not trying to sound snobbish but bumpstocks, binary triggers and FRTs are an alternative for people who will never be able to afford the insane prices commanded by registered machineguns. The NFA has always been a pay-to-play abomination of legislation. |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: Nah. I work with a respected NFA Dealer and legit full-auto is just an entirely different clientele. Not trying to sound snobbish but bumpstocks, binary triggers and FRTs are an alternative for people who will never be able to afford the insane prices commanded by registered machineguns. The NFA has always been a pay-to-play abomination of legislation. I can see that. SCUBA vs Snorkeling. |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: FRTs are an alternative for people who will never be able to afford the insane prices commanded by registered machineguns. . I have MGs. All I (mostly) shoot now are SS/FRTs in mp5s, AKs, and ARs. The people that I’ve met who say they don’t compare are people that haven’t shot one. All my MG buddies who try one all say “wow - where can I get one”. I’m not ready to sell MGs yet but for the first time it’s something I keep thinking about. I see other people contemplating selling and also saying they had planned to buy an MG but now aren’t going to |
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Originally Posted By Alaska-Shooter: I have MGs. All I (mostly) shoot now are SS/FRTs in mp5s, AKs, and ARs. The people that I’ve met who say they don’t compare are people that haven’t shot one. All my MG buddies who try one all say “wow - where can I get one”. I’m not ready to sell MGs yet but for the first time it’s something I keep thinking about. I see other people contemplating selling and also saying they had planned to buy an MG but now aren’t going to What AK FRTs are you using? I am waiting on a MARS and have another from Deeznutz I haven't started - but otherwise experience is Same here. I've been having lots of fun with AR FRTs and its a really close experience I have registered MGs that have been collecting dust lately. I recently did a Colt DOE 9mm clone with an FRT - lots of fun. |
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I got my AK FRT’s from Harrison Gunworks. The mak90 took very minor fitting. I’m working on putting one in a PSA 5.45 krink now. My buddy has his PSA 5.56 krink running with one so I’m confident it’ll work. The AK FRTs take a lot more technical skill to install and get fitted. Going wild with the dremel is a sure way to disappointment. I’m really getting good at the disassembly, minor metal removal, assembly, function test, test fire, repeat process 🤣 Good luck! |
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Originally Posted By ark-and-spark: It sure seems as if there are more m-16’s, lighting links and dias on the market recently. I have noticed that as well. I'll time to time check out what transferables are available. I haven't seen many LL/DIAS lately, but have noticed an uptick of A2 (converted& factory) guns as opposed to converted SP1s. From my prospective, an interest of shooting outweighing my interest in a high dollar collector item, it doesn't make sense to get an M16 when super safeties are available and legal. For the general concern of the thread, I would think that guys that typically save up for an entry level M16 as their grail gun likely will lose interest when they can put a SS in their own gun for under a hundred bucks. Experiencing both, it does feel and act just like an M16. For guys that want a SS to play with, this guy has them for $55 to your door without the modified trigger at the moment. https://tacticaltitansupply.com/super-safety-cam-kit-4140-steel/ I believe the website is a guy with a drop-ship business slinging SS' for extra money. I've picked up a couple with no issues using PayPal. |
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Originally Posted By Alaska-Shooter: I got my AK FRT’s from Harrison Gunworks. The mak90 took very minor fitting. I’m working on putting one in a PSA 5.45 krink now. My buddy has his PSA 5.56 krink running with one so I’m confident it’ll work. The AK FRTs take a lot more technical skill to install and get fitted. Going wild with the dremel is a sure way to disappointment. I’m really getting good at the disassembly, minor metal removal, assembly, function test, test fire, repeat process 🤣 Good luck! We have a thread going in the AK discussion section. I’ve managed to get two different types of FRTs going in four different AKs. It’s tough (for me) to describe what I did and my pictures are usually worth two words, the first rhymes with duck and the last is you, LOL! Maybe you can add to the madness there? These things are sofa king fun. All of my transferables don’t see much daylight as a result. |
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Originally Posted By Dakota_Don: We have a thread going in the AK discussion section. I’ve managed to get two different types of FRTs going in four different AKs. It’s tough (for me) to describe what I did and my pictures are usually worth two words, the first rhymes with duck and the last is you, LOL! Maybe you can add to the madness there? These things are sofa king fun. All of my transferables don’t see much daylight as a result. +1 Please post how you were able to get your Harrison unit fitted. Like what was critical first step , things to avoid shaping the trigger or? It's too bad that this is somewhat of a cottage industry product with no printed instruction and word of mouth and YouTube tidbits learned. I agree - the transferables hit a back seat lately - I love to tinker on these and have so much fun - My DOE SBR 9mm Colt clone has been getting more time than my MACs especially how 9mm ammo prices are lowered. I can't believe at one point I was so worried about 9mm ammo during COVID I traded a case of 5.45 for a case of 9mm!!!!! |
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Originally Posted By ark-and-spark: It sure seems as if there are more m-16’s, lighting links and dias on the market recently. M16s pattern MGs are the second most common transferable MG behind the Mac series. There always has been and always will be a large number of them for sale at any given time compared to other MGs. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: M16s pattern MGs are the second most common transferable MG behind the Mac series. There always has been and always will be a large number of them for sale at any given time compared to other MGs. Not correct. This was discussed at length by a number of RKIs on the now gone subguns.com website in mid 2006. The transferrable M16 "MG's" which includes about 10,000 RDIAS's and about 500 Lightning Links totals at about 50,000. The "MAC" series that includes about 17,000 factory made M11/9's and about 8,500 each of the factory made M10's (9mm plus .45 ACP totals) and M11-380s, plus unknown number of Form 1 semi auto MAC conversions and kit builds is believed to total out MACs at about 38,000-40,000. In other words, there're about 10,000 more M16s than MACs. And FWIW, on or about Feb., 2016 there were 175,977 total transferrable MGs, but that number was increased by the recent classification change of at least some (estimated to be about 4,000) dealer pre-samples to transferrable. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: Is anyone making an HK FRT that uses the standard HK FCG? Originally Posted By JoshNC: Is anyone making an HK FRT that uses the standard HK FCG? Assuming you're taking about the MP5&K. No. Lee sporting makes a fitted lower, and there's multiple 3D print files to use the AR trigger group to work on them. Small sellers are selling 3d printed drop in lowers for cheap. But it's with the AR trigger platform using the SS. Originally Posted By SecondAmend: Not correct. This was discussed at length by a number of RKIs on the now gone subguns.com website in mid 2006. The transferrable M16 "MG's" which includes about 10,000 RDIAS's and about 500 Lightning Links totals at about 50,000. The "MAC" series that includes about 17,000 factory made M11/9's and about 8,500 each of the factory made M10's (9mm plus .45 ACP totals) and M11-380s, plus unknown number of Form 1 semi auto MAC conversions and kit builds is believed to total out MACs at about 38,000-40,000. In other words, there're about 10,000 more M16s than MACs. And FWIW, on or about Feb., 2016 there were 175,977 total transferrable MGs, but that number was increased by the recent classification change of at least some (estimated to be about 4,000) dealer pre-samples to transferrable. MHO, YMMV, etc. I have no clue here, but I wonder if FOIA could somehow apply to find the exact statistics if that wasn't the basis of the numbers you're referring to. |
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Originally Posted By criio1: Assuming you're taking about the MP5&K. No. Lee sporting makes a fitted lower, and there's multiple 3D print files to use the AR trigger group to work on them. Small sellers are selling 3d printed drop in lowers for cheap. But it's with the AR trigger platform using the SS. I have no clue here, but I wonder if FOIA could somehow apply to find the exact statistics if that wasn't the basis of the numbers you're referring to. Originally Posted By criio1: Originally Posted By JoshNC: Is anyone making an HK FRT that uses the standard HK FCG? Assuming you're taking about the MP5&K. No. Lee sporting makes a fitted lower, and there's multiple 3D print files to use the AR trigger group to work on them. Small sellers are selling 3d printed drop in lowers for cheap. But it's with the AR trigger platform using the SS. Originally Posted By SecondAmend: Not correct. This was discussed at length by a number of RKIs on the now gone subguns.com website in mid 2006. The transferrable M16 "MG's" which includes about 10,000 RDIAS's and about 500 Lightning Links totals at about 50,000. The "MAC" series that includes about 17,000 factory made M11/9's and about 8,500 each of the factory made M10's (9mm plus .45 ACP totals) and M11-380s, plus unknown number of Form 1 semi auto MAC conversions and kit builds is believed to total out MACs at about 38,000-40,000. In other words, there're about 10,000 more M16s than MACs. And FWIW, on or about Feb., 2016 there were 175,977 total transferrable MGs, but that number was increased by the recent classification change of at least some (estimated to be about 4,000) dealer pre-samples to transferrable. MHO, YMMV, etc. I have no clue here, but I wonder if FOIA could somehow apply to find the exact statistics if that wasn't the basis of the numbers you're referring to. It was my understanding that at least some of the numbers were based on statements made by one or more BATFE officials. Also, one needs to keep in mind that a fair number of machine gun sales by the original M.A.C. were to foreign entities and U.S. government federal, local, and state entities, not as "transferrables" to U.S. private citizens. ETA: Though a few MACs that were sold to U.S. local police have made it to the private citizen sector. IIRC, a few Atlanta, GA P.D. M10s are now in private citizen hands, and there's probably a few others. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: I have both and a good FRT is 99% of the performance of a machinegun. Practically indistinguishable in use if set up correctly. |
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Originally Posted By SecondAmend: It was my understanding that at least some of the numbers were based on statements made by one or more BATFE officials. Also, one needs to keep in mind that a fair number of machine gun sales by the original M.A.C. were to foreign entities and U.S. government federal, local, and state entities, not as "transferrables" to U.S. private citizens. ETA: Though a few MACs that were sold to U.S. local police have made it to the private citizen sector. IIRC, a few Atlanta, GA P.D. M10s are now in private citizen hands, and there's probably a few others. MHO, YMMV, etc. I have an M10 and Suppressor that were Atlanta PD Demos. APD had done some testing and photo-ops for the the MAC catalogs. This supposedly was used to encourage sales of MACs to other agencies. They were sure to show a MAC-10 being fired from a police helicopter showing how one could lay down lots of firepower in the wake of the New Orleans Sniper in 1973 that was taken out "eventually" with helicopter police gunfire - |
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