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Posted: 12/3/2024 1:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TimelinexAZ][Edited]
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I'm thinking about getting a Palmetto State Armory upper to use on my m16 lower. I will be using a Saker 7.62 suppressor which is rated down to 7", so that is not a problem. I have heard the 7.5's get a bad rap for being useless. I don't plan on doing anything with this upper but having it for fun. I've got a short 300blk and standard size 5.56's for more "serious" work. Which would be best or what are some pros/cons The 2 options I see now are: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-10-5-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-9-lightweight-m-lok-upper-no-bcg-or-ch1.html https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-7-5-5-56-nato-1-7-phosphate-suppressor-ready-10-m-lok-upper-w-bcg-ch.html (EDIT: or the better option with muzzle uncovered: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-7-5-5-56-nato-1-7-phosphate-6-lightweight-m-lok-upper-w-bcg-ch.html .... I'm not sure why cover the muzzle with a long handguard? More room for accessories? The ID is big enough form y suppressor, but I imagine it gets the handguard HOT) Hard to beat a complete upper with a good company that stands behind them for ~$300. Sale may end by the time I get replies and decide. But I'm not in rush and I'm sure they will have similar for Christmas time. Opinions? (Side note: anything else worth getting for m16 lower? I've got 300blk and 22lr uppers already. I've heard 9mm arent worth the risk.) |
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One of my most fun centerfire rifle caliber uppers for an M16 is 7.62x39 in 7.5 or 8" Video below is using an MGI lower and RDIAS. However back before I had a RDIAS, I was using 'Frankenmags' that also worked great. These days, the C-Products / Duramags work great for 7.62x39 even in full auto but are limited to 30 rounds.  Full auto 7.5" 7.62x39 M16 |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: ( I've heard 9mm arent worth the risk.) I use my hybrid 9mm M16 Dissent every chance I can get. My 13 yr old son also prefers this over my other guns including full auto MP5's: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=1733 I have built several for friends and some for people I don't know. Most of my friends also have full auto MP5's and we all prefer this over the MP5 for LRBHO, tune-ability and a nicer cyclic rate than the MP5.  Failed To Load Title  Hybrid CMMG Dissent Full Auto 9mm Phase2 40rnd Exomag |
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I would suggest looking at 11.5 or 12.5. I’ve had all 3, and I ended up converting the 7.5” to a dedicated 22LR with a CMMG converter. The blast and concussion on the 7.5” was just too much. The 10.5” worked great for a while, but it’s still very loud. I ended up building a CAR15 with an 11.5”, and it just ‘feels’ better and smoother than the 10.5”. They are both carbine length gas systems, but the extra dwell time on the 11.5” seems to make a big difference. If I had to do it over again, I would probably go with a 12.5” mid length, but not for a CAR15 build. I have a new build going on right now with a 13.7” piston, that feels almost like a real rifle. We’ll see how that goes. My suggestion is 11.5 or 12.5 for a better (and more useful) system. |
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Originally Posted By Klugey1: My suggestion is 11.5 or 12.5 for a better (and more useful) system. I would say for 556, my 'more useful' AND fun setup is my 'Ultimax' project slow fire setup as documented on my site here: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=1403  Combining a reduced gas port AND a large volume gas tube yields a long dwell time so no gas dumping in your face and a slow cyclic rate. With the appropriate carrier you can also achieve 'Ultimax' characteristic of the carrier not bottoming out for a super smooth experience.  I liked it so much I made custom large volume gas tubes for Mid and Rifle length. Bear in mind Colt also uses a large volume gas tube for the LMG but those gas tube's are rare as hen's teeth individually.  |
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The 10.5” gets you access to the threaded muzzle and a less finicky carbine length gas system. Plus I don’t know if that 7.5” barrel upper’s hand guard is big enough ID for your suppressor. Having to chop handguard or buy another is $tupid. It’s dumb for PSA to chop the barrel and then have to extend it anyway with a recessed flash can that’s semi-useless muzzle jewelry. Even on the 10.5” you will probably want some gas throttling when suppressed (in cost order): YHM suppressor gas block (can always drill up to larger size if needed), RCA adjustable gas key, BRT suppressor sized gas tube, adjustable gas block (Wojtek or more expensive but avoid venting gimmicks), Bootleg adjustable BCG. |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: One of my most fun centerfire rifle caliber uppers for an M16 is 7.62x39 in 7.5 or 8" Video below is using an MGI lower and RDIAS. However back before I had a RDIAS, I was using 'Frankenmags' that also worked great. These days, the C-Products / Duramags work great for 7.62x39 even in full auto but are limited to 30 rounds.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0HxzM8f8LUOriginally Posted By amphibian: One of my most fun centerfire rifle caliber uppers for an M16 is 7.62x39 in 7.5 or 8" Video below is using an MGI lower and RDIAS. However back before I had a RDIAS, I was using 'Frankenmags' that also worked great. These days, the C-Products / Duramags work great for 7.62x39 even in full auto but are limited to 30 rounds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0HxzM8f8LUAll the 7.62x39 uppers that PSA has only attach to their specialized lowers. But I did google it and see there are other a lot of other companies making 7.62x39 uppers. Any recommendation on a brand that should work full auto suppressed out the box? Originally Posted By amphibian: My take on 9mm M16 options: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=361 I use my hybrid 9mm M16 Dissent every chance I can get. My 13 yr old son also prefers this over my other guns including full auto MP5's: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=1733 I have built several for friends and some for people I don't know. Most of my friends also have full auto MP5's and we all prefer this over the MP5 for LRBHO, tune-ability and a nicer cyclic rate than the MP5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKJfJrDLMLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2FfczOvcvsI'd love a 9mm option. I've seen your website before and your write up's are great. BUT, I think it's just not applicable to me: 1. I've got 2 toddlers at home and not enough time to go tinker and shoot as it is. I need something that will work out of the box, or with a few range trips. 2. Getting it wrong and having my holes start to egg shape is an expensive experiment. My lower is from a full Colt rifle. I only say this to mean that it's basically the most expensive lower option to experiment on. If there was an upper or known combination of parts designed to not egg the holes and work full auto suppressed, I would be all over it. Originally Posted By Klugey1: I would suggest looking at 11.5 or 12.5. I’ve had all 3, and I ended up converting the 7.5” to a dedicated 22LR with a CMMG converter. The blast and concussion on the 7.5” was just too much. The 10.5” worked great for a while, but it’s still very loud. I ended up building a CAR15 with an 11.5”, and it just ‘feels’ better and smoother than the 10.5”. They are both carbine length gas systems, but the extra dwell time on the 11.5” seems to make a big difference. If I had to do it over again, I would probably go with a 12.5” mid length, but not for a CAR15 build. I have a new build going on right now with a 13.7” piston, that feels almost like a real rifle. We’ll see how that goes. My suggestion is 11.5 or 12.5 for a better (and more useful) system. My plan is to use a suppressor. Doesn't that neutralize the issues you mention? If anything, it's probably a perk that I can get a really loud blast on a "fun" rifle by taking off the suppressor. To be honest, what I may be getting out of this is eventually I may need BOTH a 7.5" and a 10.5/11.5! Originally Posted By KalmanPhilter: The 10.5” gets you access to the threaded muzzle and a less finicky carbine length gas system. Plus I don’t know if that 7.5” barrel upper’s hand guard is big enough ID for your suppressor. Having to chop handguard or buy another is $tupid. It’s dumb for PSA to chop the barrel and then have to extend it anyway with a recessed flash can that’s semi-useless muzzle jewelry. Even on the 10.5” you will probably want some gas throttling when suppressed (in cost order): YHM suppressor gas block (can always drill up to larger size if needed), RCA adjustable gas key, BRT suppressor sized gas tube, adjustable gas block (Wojtek or more expensive but avoid venting gimmicks), Bootleg adjustable BCG. I'm not sure why they do that. More room for accessories? Looks? The ID is large enough to fit my suppressor though. Anyways, I edited my original post to include a link to a 7.5" that does NOT have the handguard over the muzzle. -------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for all the opinions so far guys! Keep em coming. I'm still torn, but as I mentioned earlier maybe I just need to order both eventually  |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: All the 7.62x39 uppers that PSA has only attach to their specialized lowers. But I did google it and see there are other a lot of other companies making 7.62x39 uppers. Any recommendation on a brand that should work full auto suppressed out the box? Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: Originally Posted By amphibian: One of my most fun centerfire rifle caliber uppers for an M16 is 7.62x39 in 7.5 or 8" Video below is using an MGI lower and RDIAS. However back before I had a RDIAS, I was using 'Frankenmags' that also worked great. These days, the C-Products / Duramags work great for 7.62x39 even in full auto but are limited to 30 rounds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0HxzM8f8LUAll the 7.62x39 uppers that PSA has only attach to their specialized lowers. But I did google it and see there are other a lot of other companies making 7.62x39 uppers. Any recommendation on a brand that should work full auto suppressed out the box? Picture from my site above, if not using AK mags, all you need to do is grind those two lugs off and the KS47 upper will work with your M16 lower C-Products mags.  Originally Posted By amphibian: My take on 9mm M16 options: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=361 I use my hybrid 9mm M16 Dissent every chance I can get. My 13 yr old son also prefers this over my other guns including full auto MP5's: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=1733 I have built several for friends and some for people I don't know. Most of my friends also have full auto MP5's and we all prefer this over the MP5 for LRBHO, tune-ability and a nicer cyclic rate than the MP5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKJfJrDLMLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2FfczOvcvsI'd love a 9mm option. I've seen your website before and your write up's are great. BUT, I think it's just not applicable to me: 1. I've got 2 toddlers at home and not enough time to go tinker and shoot as it is. I need something that will work out of the box, or with a few range trips. 2. Getting it wrong and having my holes start to egg shape is an expensive experiment. My lower is from a full Colt rifle. I only say this to mean that it's basically the most expensive lower option to experiment on. If you look at the high speed video I posted above and compare that to a 556 configuration, my tuned 'hybrid' Dissent is softer than a stock 556. I think 7.62x39 is also more violent than 5.56 and many run that on transferrable lowers as well. |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: Link to my site: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=185 Picture from my site above, if not using AK mags, all you need to do is grind those two lugs off and the KS47 upper will work with your M16 lower C-Products mags. https://c3junkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/KS-47-Upper2-1024x726.png I could provide you with a turn key config that requires no tweaking if you wanted to go that route. I run mine on my transferrable Colt 614 as do other friends on their transferrable M16's. If you look at the high speed video I posted above and compare that to a 556 configuration, my tuned 'hybrid' Dissent is softer than a stock 556. I think 7.62x39 is also more violent than 5.56 and many run that on transferrable lowers as well. I thought the thing with the 9mm is its particular recoil signature and not necessary, just how hard it recoils. Let mekn ow what config is turnkey and should work and I'll try putting it together next. I have another question for you since you mentioned the 7.62x39. What length do you recommend for it? Looks like a wide range are also available. Everything from 7.5" to 16+. The plan would be to use full auto suppressed just as the others. EDIT: didn't see the link you sent till now. Reading....looks like you answered my question with 7.5-8" Thanks for the wealth of knowledge! |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: I thought the thing with the 9mm is its particular recoil signature and not necessary, just how hard it recoils. Let mekn ow what config is turnkey and should work and I'll try putting it together next. Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: I thought the thing with the 9mm is its particular recoil signature and not necessary, just how hard it recoils. Let mekn ow what config is turnkey and should work and I'll try putting it together next. Please read it if you haven't already. My custom hybrid setup is the only thing I would recommend. If there was something else, I would be running it and so would my friends. I didn't want to have to make custom parts but I did as I wanted it so bad. I made over a dozen for other full auto guys. I would make one for you if you are serious. You can send me a DM / email if you are. I have another question for you since you mentioned the 7.62x39. What length do you recommend for it? Looks like a wide range are also available. Everything from 7.5" to 16+. The plan would be to use full auto suppressed just as the others. EDIT: didn't see the link you sent till now. Reading....looks like you answered my question with 7.5-8" Thanks for the wealth of knowledge! I do have a 11.5" Mid gas 7.62x39 I'm building right now with one of my custom fat gas tubes for full auto suppresssed usage. |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: Here is a link to my site again...https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=361 Please read it if you haven't already. My custom hybrid setup is the only thing I would recommend. If there was something else, I would be running it and so would my friends. I didn't want to have to make custom parts but I did as I wanted it so bad. I made over a dozen for other full auto guys. I would make one for you if you are serious. You can send me a DM / email if you are. I don't run my 7.5-8" 7.62x39's suppressed as they are just fun noise makers. I do have a 11.5" Mid gas 7.62x39 I'm building right now with one of my custom fat gas tubes for full auto suppresssed usage. On the 9mm, GOT IT now. I thought maybe there was something that you came upon since writing your article. I read your article a while back when initially looking for 9mm, so I didn't read it again when you linked it. Maybe you've updated the edit since then. (or there haven't been any updates to talk about!) Do you think you would have issues running your 7.5" 7.62x39 suppressed? |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: I would prefer to run at least a 10.5" for suppressed for 7.62x39. What is driving your preference? The recoil? The abuse on the system or suppressor? That the suppressor won't be as effective to suppress the sound at that short? |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: What is driving your preference? The recoil? The abuse on the system or suppressor? That the suppressor won't be as effective to suppress the sound at that short? Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: Originally Posted By amphibian: I would prefer to run at least a 10.5" for suppressed for 7.62x39. What is driving your preference? The recoil? The abuse on the system or suppressor? That the suppressor won't be as effective to suppress the sound at that short? I just added this old picture to my website for reference:  So on top of all that, yeah I think it would be hard on the suppressor as well eventhough I have suppressor that are rated for it. I just don't care to do it. |
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Originally Posted By azmp5: The 10.5 is already alittle gassy but the 7.5 you need a face mask. It is like a chaotic video game in your face.I have a great video I took of a nice lady that shot mine and you should see the look on her face. She was so giddy shooting it and loved it. She ran one 75 round drum and at the end she was so let down that she ran out of ammo. She ran several more drums at dusk and it was awesome watching the flames come out of that thing and hearing her laughing so hard. I'm not kidding when I say it is one of my favorites. I have at least 4 of them and rotate them out when I go to shoots to give them cooling off time. Definitely not for everyone though. |
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OK, guys. I appreciate everyone input and especially the thorough posts from @amphibian It has helped me decide on going a different route. I've been swayed to sticking with 10.5 or 11.5 for my 5.56. Still have to decide which of those. But I just bought a 7.5" 7.62x39 to scratch the fun shorty itch I need to find more MAAD flash hiders & brakes for my Saker now |
I just uploaded that video I talked about. Cracks me up everytime I watch it.  Full auto M16 in 7.62x39 fun |
Doesn't exactly answer your question, but I have a 14.5" DD upper with a Huxwrx Flow suppressor on my M16 lower. Runs like a top and is a hell of a lot of fun. Failed To Load Title |
When faced with crisis, the man of character falls back on himself.
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Originally Posted By PAESAN: Did PRI discontinue the Fat Boy carbine tube or is it still available? |
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Bought a 10.5" PSA upper too now. Will let you guys know how the 10.5" PSA and 7.5" 7.62x39 choice went. I do suspect issues from the 7.62x39 as I read they are notorious for breaking extractors/firing pins or running well. But it's cheap and I bought different magazine brands to try and at least rule that out. |
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I had a 16 in. 7.62x39 upper that was a good, cheap, fun shooter until the ComBloc ammo ban came along. With "cheap" gone, I gave the upper and some hunting 7.62x39 ammo away to a relative who has deer hunting property where tapered wall, center fire cartridges can be used. I have a 10.5 in. bbl. in 5.56x45 upper and usually have a silencer mounted on it which brings the overall length to about what a 16 in. bbl. with FH is. It's a nice controllable package. With a .22 adapter kit installed, it's very quiet. Best of luck, and enjoy many safe shooting times with whatever you decide to pursue. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Originally Posted By drjaydvm: I have a 7.5 inch sig 516 upper for my M16. Its very short and handy even with the Recce 5 attached. This might be a place where a piston system shines with the adjustable gas. Soft points out of a small barrel will work just fine. That is my thoughts as well. Hornady black is what I shoot. Mine is a 1:7 twist 7.5 5.56 BA barrel with a an AE extender for a AE suppressor mount. I am thinking that maybe it would be better to ditch the extender and go with a decent 10.5 to prevent issues with the can. I need a little room in front of the SA adjustable piston block in order to adjust it and the 10.5 should get me there without the extender. The over all length should be about the same. I will probably have to change my piston rod from pistol to a carbine though. |
| I wouldnt go shorter than 10.5" if youre looking for reliability. Its still makes a ton of noise and if you want it to be stupid loud, like hurt your eyeballs when youre shooting loud, just put a muzzle break on it. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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no shorter than 10.5". i do like a 12.3 inch xm177 e2 upper. these are extremely controlable. in full auto burst it runs like a sewing machine. heat builds up too quickly though. i have multiple lengths and those 2 seem to work the best. 10.5 with a suppressor in 9 mil works great. i have a commando in a1 thats just awesome. |
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I have a 6920 upper on my M16. I don't like short barreled rifles in general. I like the gun to burn the powder before the bullet uncorks from the barrel, so more of the muzzle blast will go downrange instead of in my face. Because I shoot for accuracy most of the time. But now that I think on it a little more, maybe a cheapo upper that makes a huge fireball would be fun. I was hoping to find a load that makes a gigantic fireball out of my Thompson, but there's not much you can do with a 45acp and a 10 inch barrel. I even tried using Alliant 2400 and got no fireball. Just lots of unburned powder.   |
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Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: I have a 6920 upper on my M16. I don't like short barreled rifles in general. I like the gun to burn the powder before the bullet uncorks from the barrel, so more of the muzzle blast will go downrange instead of in my face. Because I shoot for accuracy most of the time. But now that I think on it a little more, maybe a cheapo upper that makes a huge fireball would be fun. I was hoping to find a load that makes a gigantic fireball out of my Thompson, but there's not much you can do with a 45acp and a 10 inch barrel. I even tried using Alliant 2400 and got no fireball. Just lots of unburned powder. https://i.imgur.com/jWO8xgw.gif https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOBX9STqprA |
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