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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 300BLK SUBsonic deer loads (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/16/2024 12:58:13 PM EDT
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After thinking about where I hunt and 60yards being a long shot for deer, I started debating why 308WIN I have a RAR in 300BLK with 110gr Barnes TacTX loaded for hunting currently So in this thread I'd like to discuss if 300BLK Subs are even good for deer, I suspect YES but I've seen differing opinions) and what people are using for deer (and similiar sized animal) loads. My experience will be with 16" barrel, all lengths are welcome |
| I have a 300BLK AR-15 and Ruger American. We have it very difficult up here in NH deer hunting, probably the worst state in the country that has whitetail. Low, low population density and heavy cover. If I absolutely didn’t want someone hearing it, yes, like in SHTF. But otherwise it’s full-power .308. |
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Quoted: After thinking about where I hunt and 60yards being a long shot for deer, I started debating why 308WIN I have a RAR in 300BLK with 110gr Barnes TacTX loaded for hunting currently So in this thread I'd like to discuss if 300BLK Subs are even good for deer, I suspect YES but I've seen differing opinions) and what people are using for deer (and similiar sized animal) loads. My experience will be with 16" barrel, all lengths are welcome The trouble with sub's involves expansion and penetration. There are a few heavy 30 cal sub's that are designed to expand, but @ less than 1000 fps, penetration may be questionable after penetrating the hide. If you hit bone, who knows?!? A 44 or 45 Colt lever gun shooting hard cast @ 1000 fps would be more effective, IMO. I do have a 300 BLK "pistol" set up for deer, but with super's. |
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Quoted: The trouble with sub's involves expansion and penetration. There are a few heavy 30 cal sub's that are designed to expand, but @ less than 1000 fps, penetration may be questionable after penetrating the hide. If you hit bone, who knows?!? A 44 or 45 Colt lever gun shooting hard cast @ 1000 fps would be more effective, IMO. I do have a 300 BLK "pistol" set up for deer, but with super's. How is a 45 colt with 225 grain bullet at 980fps better than a 300bo with a 220 grain bullet at 1050 fps? Or anything similar for that matter. |
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Quoted: How is a 45 colt with 225 grain bullet at 980fps better than a 300bo with a 220 grain bullet at 1050 fps? Or anything similar for that matter. It is all about the bullet design. A hard cast bullet with a wide meplat does serious damage to internals and is largely unaffected by bone contact. There is no need for expansion, and there will likely be a significant exit wound. A 30 caliber pointy bullet that doesn't expand will do nothing but needle through an animal, causing little to no damage. A 30 caliber expanding bullet at that velocity will likely not penetrate much, certainly not through. |
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Quoted: It is all about the bullet design. A hard cast bullet with a wide meplat does serious damage to internals and is largely unaffected by bone contact. There is no need for expansion, and there will likely be a significant exit wound. A 30 caliber pointy bullet that doesn't expand will do nothing but needle through an animal, causing little to no damage. A 30 caliber expanding bullet at that velocity will likely not penetrate much, certainly not through. I understand what you are saying. Make up for the non expanding .30 cal bullet with the built in 45 cal diameter. But.. Since this is the reloading forum, the mistake most people make is not taking into consideration that the 950-1000 fps factory subsonic bullet they use in their 8” 300BO rifle is only traveling @ 700-750 fps which is below the expansion threshold. Now, being reloaders, we can take a 220 grain projectile and load it to what would be 1200 fps out of a 16” barrel, as that is the barrel length used in the reloading manual, and now have a much better chance of reaching the fps needed for expansion. |
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Quoted: I understand what you are saying. Make up for the non expanding .30 cal bullet with the built in 45 cal diameter. But.. Since this is the reloading forum, the mistake most people make is not taking into consideration that the 950-1000 fps factory subsonic bullet they use in their 8” 300BO rifle is only traveling @ 700-750 fps which is below the expansion threshold. Now, being reloaders, we can take a 220 grain projectile and load it to what would be 1200 fps out of a 16” barrel, as that is the barrel length used in the reloading manual, and now have a much better chance of reaching the fps needed for expansion. 1,200 fps is not subsonic |
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Quoted: 1,200 fps is not subsonic You didn’t read it. I said load your round to 1200 FPS out of a 16” barrel as that is what’s listed as barrel length in the manual. This will give you @950-1000 out of an 8” barrel. See here at the top of the table. Attached File |
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Quoted: I understand what you are saying. Make up for the non expanding .30 cal bullet with the built in 45 cal diameter. But.. Since this is the reloading forum, the mistake most people make is not taking into consideration that the 950-1000 fps factory subsonic bullet they use in their 8” 300BO rifle is only traveling @ 700-750 fps which is below the expansion threshold. Now, being reloaders, we can take a 220 grain projectile and load it to what would be 1200 fps out of a 16” barrel, as that is the barrel length used in the reloading manual, and now have a much better chance of reaching the fps needed for expansion. I see what you are saying, however, I really doubt you are going to see a 150 or 200 fps loss of velocity in a subsonic 300 blackout going from a 16" to an 8" barrel. More realistically you are looking closer to a 50 fps loss. You can account for that in your reloads, but really that's just the difference in lot to lot variation of powder. If you were concerned about getting right at 1050 fps from you rifle, you should be working up loads with a chronograph regardless of the load data barrel length. I'm not a huge fan of 300 blackout, and while there are not a ton of good bullets for it, there are some, I would gladly use it on a deer. I would also rather use a 45 acp or 458 socom if subsonic. Or just shoot full power ammo, the crack isn't a big deal for one shot. |
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Quoted: I see what you are saying, however, I really doubt you are going to see a 150 or 200 fps loss of velocity in a subsonic 300 blackout going from a 16" to an 8" barrel. More realistically you are looking closer to a 50 fps loss. You can account for that in your reloads, but really that's just the difference in lot to lot variation of powder. If you were concerned about getting right at 1050 fps from you rifle, you should be working up loads with a chronograph regardless of the load data barrel length. I'm not a huge fan of 300 blackout, and while there are not a ton of good bullets for it, there are some, I would gladly use it on a deer. I would also rather use a 45 acp or 458 socom if subsonic. Or just shoot full power ammo, the crack isn't a big deal for one shot. If this table is correct, 125g loses 270 fps and 220 grain loses 150 fps. So somewhere in between. Attached File |
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Quoted: You didn’t read it. I said load your round to 1200 FPS out of a 16” barrel as that is what’s listed as barrel length in the manual. This will give you @950-1000 out of an 8” barrel. See here at the top of the table. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/146093/IMG_2719_jpeg-3351422.JPG 1k is pretty much the standard used for sub's, regardless of barrel length. A 45 caliber WFN hard cast bullet will still outperform it on game at the same velocity. |
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Glad to see this thread, maybe edit the title in bold and call it the Master XXXX Thread??? I, like Mr. Craig24680, have a few places where my shots will be limited to sub 100 yards and most likely less than 50. Why the 30-06 other than tradition? I have read a lot of reviews from folks first hand hunts and field testing. Some I believe and others, well it is the interwebs... I have also seen video evidence of testing that show the Maker Rex and Hornady Sub X expand at subsonic speeds. Johnny's Reloading and I think Kentucky Range Time (??) on the tubes of you. No, I do not know them or have any affiliation other than being from the fine Commonwealth of Kentucky. There is another forum dedicated to the round that has some info... The Sub X, like my experience testing Critical Duty/Critical Defense, mushroom well. The Sub X should be able to kill things if you put it in the generous "right spot." Above subsonic they do not/may not work as intended. Saw a video by the guy on the Kentucky Range Time channel testing them. Twice. Meaning two videos because the first time they were going to fast. The Sub X he first tried were pushed over 1100fps and came apart like a varmint bullets at the mouth and then went on like a solid. Have read that the original intent was for big (240gr FMJ type) bullets to not expand but tumble and dump energy. The Maker Rex (and copies) seem to produce grappling hook shaped bullets when pushed through gel and "petals" (3) stay intact unlike the Leighigh or ??? type. Both of the YT channels referenced test the Maker Rex, 200 and 220 grain. A guy told me he tested them and at 200 yards put them through two jugs of water and dug the bullet out of the dirt bank behind the jugs and it was a grappling hook too. I like two holes, I think both of these will make two holes - or near nuff. The Maker Rex will make a big wound channel and if they do not exit, then all the energy from a big wide cutting bullet will dump in the critter. I have both to reload and am looking forward to seeing results from the 200gr Maker Rex from my 8.5" |
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Quoted: After thinking about where I hunt and 60yards being a long shot for deer, I started debating why 308WIN I have a RAR in 300BLK with 110gr Barnes TacTX loaded for hunting currently So in this thread I'd like to discuss if 300BLK Subs are even good for deer, I suspect YES but I've seen differing opinions) and what people are using for deer (and similiar sized animal) loads. My experience will be with 16" barrel, all lengths are welcome Id just stick with the 110s or 125s. Velocity and expansion kills. Subsonic 30 cal bullets do not have consistent enough expansion at subsonic speeds IMHO. Yes, there are boutique bullets from companies like Maker, but the Hornady subs are pretty hit or miss, so thats something you gotta figure out for yourself. Ill also echo what others have said. A 45 caliber bullet that weighs 230gr that is subsonic is likely more effective than a 30 cal 230 gr sub due to construction. Ill take that statement a step further. A 45 ACP loaded with a 230gr XTP would be far more effective than a 30 cal 230gr sub as the XTP is designed to expand at those velocities. |
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I have killed.6 deer and 1 black bear using a handloaded Makets 200gr REX. Works just like a broadheaded arrow just with more thump. All expired within 30 yards. Velocity of 1025 avg. Attached File |
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Quoted: If this table is correct, 125g loses 270 fps and 220 grain loses 150 fps. So somewhere in between. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/146093/1000002677_png-3351499.JPG It must be possible, but I've never seen it be that dramatic. That comes with the usual caveat that every barrel can vary, and different powders provide different results. |
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Turning into a good thread The intent was to find loads but more importantly if 300blk subs is ethical and it seems based on responses and other research it's highly dependent on bullet choice Quoted: I have killed.6 deer and 1 black bear using a handloaded Makets 200gr REX. Works just like a broadheaded arrow just with more thump. All expired within 30 yards. Velocity of 1025 avg. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184979/1000002512_jpg-3351740.JPG @wvfarrier how far were the deer from you aprox when you shot? |
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Quoted: I do not understand your obsession here. 1k fps is 1k fps. What difference does it matter what length tube it comes out of? The performance on game will be the same. Really?? You don’t understand that a subsonic round that measures 1000fps out of a 16” barrel will not be 1000fps out of an 8” barrel ? I even posted a table above that showed velocity loss with shorter barrel lengths. Illustration for you. Going from 16” to 7.5 was @150fps slower. Attached File Watch it for yourself..  The Best 300BLK Barrel Length & All Things 300 Blackout Answered |
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I may or may not have killed lots of deer with subsonic 300blk. Many will still tell you it is "unethical" because a guy on youtube with 50,000 subscribers shot a non expanding bullet into properly calibrated ballistic gel, and the non expanding bullet did not expand, so it won't work, and they are professionals. Well this amateur has posted in the past detailed autopsies and results of said kills that the professionals still say can't be done. Here is my take away from being an amateur. The 3 most important aspects of subsonic hunting with a 300blk. 1. Shot placement 2. Shot placement 3. Bullet design I have used custom made lead core jacketed subsonic bullets that performed outstanding. The Maker X also did very well. The Hornady 190 has very good expansion, and at least in my hand loads hits the same spot as the 208 .30 cal bullets. Makes load testing a little cheaper. I have also used 247 grain solid lead bullets, which while they did kill, they for obvious reasons did not perform well, and I have also used hollow pointed 240gr cast which took down the largest buck I ever killed and he was on the ground in less than 25yds. But of course, it won't work according to the experts. Now, after saying all that. The Barnes 110 black tip performs outstanding, and would never be afraid to use it. |
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Quoted: Really?? You don’t understand that a subsonic round that measures 1000fps out of a 16” barrel will not be 1000fps out of an 8” barrel ? I even posted a table above that showed velocity loss with shorter barrel lengths. Illustration for you. Going from 16” to 7.5 was @150fps slower. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/146093/IMG_2728_jpeg-3352237.JPG Watch it for yourself..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VNl7QXykUYMy Lord, man! What is your issue here? You can get 1k from a short barrel, you can get 1k from a long barrel. Load accordingly! I am talking 1k muzzle velocity, it doesn't matter what length barrel. Yes, a longer barrel will produce higher velocity than a shorter barrel. That is not the point. The point is, 1k fps is 1k fps. |
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Quoted: I have killed.6 deer and 1 black bear using a handloaded Makets 200gr REX. Works just like a broadheaded arrow just with more thump. All expired within 30 yards. Velocity of 1025 avg. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184979/1000002512_jpg-3351740.JPG Any exit wounds? |
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Quoted: I may or may not have killed lots of deer with subsonic 300blk. Many will still tell you it is "unethical" because a guy on youtube with 50,000 subscribers shot a non expanding bullet into properly calibrated ballistic gel, and the non expanding bullet did not expand, so it won't work, and they are professionals. Well this amateur has posted in the past detailed autopsies and results of said kills that the professionals still say can't be done. Here is my take away from being an amateur. The 3 most important aspects of subsonic hunting with a 300blk. 1. Shot placement 2. Shot placement 3. Bullet design I have used custom made lead core jacketed subsonic bullets that performed outstanding. The Maker X also did very well. The Hornady 190 has very good expansion, and at least in my hand loads hits the same spot as the 208 .30 cal bullets. Makes load testing a little cheaper. I have also used 247 grain solid lead bullets, which while they did kill, they for obvious reasons did not perform well, and I have also used hollow pointed 240gr cast which took down the largest buck I ever killed and he was on the ground in less than 25yds. But of course, it won't work according to the experts. Now, after saying all that. The Barnes 110 black tip performs outstanding, and would never be afraid to use it. |
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Quoted: My Lord, man! What is your issue here? You can get 1k from a short barrel, you can get 1k from a long barrel. Load accordingly! I am talking 1k muzzle velocity, it doesn't matter what length barrel. Yes, a longer barrel will produce higher velocity than a shorter barrel. That is not the point. The point is, 1k fps is 1k fps. Quoted: My Lord, man! What is your issue here? You can get 1k from a short barrel, you can get 1k from a long barrel. Load accordingly! I am talking 1k muzzle velocity, it doesn't matter what length barrel. Yes, a longer barrel will produce higher velocity than a shorter barrel. That is not the point. The point is, 1k fps is 1k fps. No issue. Trying to figure out how you missed the point of my post. A summary is justified. I pointed out how the loss of performance could be recovered by reloading and have an example of why performance was so poor using a 1050fps rated out of a 16” barrel would be below the expansion threshold out of an 8” barrel. Since this is the reloading forum, the mistake most people make is not taking into consideration that the 950-1000 fps factory subsonic bullet they use in their 8” 300BO rifle is only traveling @ 700-750 fps which is below the expansion threshold. Now, being reloaders, we can take a 220 grain projectile and load it to what would be 1200 fps out of a 16” barrel, as that is the barrel length used in the reloading manual, and now have a much better chance of reaching the fps needed for expansion. I tried to disengage Ok, we can just forget the part about loading for your barrel length. No worries |
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I pointed out how the loss of performance could be recovered by reloading and have an example of why performance was so poor using a 1050fps rated out of a 16” barrel would be below the expansion threshold out of an 8” barrel. Where was it stipulated that 1050fps was coming from a 16" barrel? I only referenced the velocity and what can be expected from bullet performance at that velocity. You took the discussion on a totally different road. I am done with this. Apologies for the derailment... |
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Quoted: Where was it stipulated that 1050fps was coming from a 16" barrel? I only referenced the velocity and what can be expected from bullet performance at that velocity. You took the discussion on a totally different road. I am done with this. Apologies for the derailment... But now don't have to, so that's a win. |
| I am curious about subs for hunting as well, specifically the Maker Rex 190 or the 200gn variety. I have some 190’s but am seeing more data on the 200’s. Not sure if I should ditch 190 and get a couple boxes of the 200’s. I can not seem to get them to cycle in a 7.5” AR even with the AGB wide open. |
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Quoted: OP has a 16" barrel 300blk bolt gun and is looking for deer loads from those with experience with the same or similar if I understood right. So lets get this back on track before you goofballs get it locked. Quoted: OP has a 16" barrel 300blk bolt gun and is looking for deer loads from those with experience with the same or similar if I understood right. So lets get this back on track before you goofballs get it locked. Quoted: I may or may not have killed lots of deer with subsonic 300blk. Many will still tell you it is "unethical" because a guy on youtube with 50,000 subscribers shot a non expanding bullet into properly calibrated ballistic gel, and the non expanding bullet did not expand, so it won't work, and they are professionals. Well this amateur has posted in the past detailed autopsies and results of said kills that the professionals still say can't be done. Here is my take away from being an amateur. The 3 most important aspects of subsonic hunting with a 300blk. 1. Shot placement 2. Shot placement 3. Bullet design I have used custom made lead core jacketed subsonic bullets that performed outstanding. The Maker X also did very well. The Hornady 190 has very good expansion, and at least in my hand loads hits the same spot as the 208 .30 cal bullets. Makes load testing a little cheaper. I have also used 247 grain solid lead bullets, which while they did kill, they for obvious reasons did not perform well, and I have also used hollow pointed 240gr cast which took down the largest buck I ever killed and he was on the ground in less than 25yds. But of course, it won't work according to the experts. Now, after saying all that. The Barnes 110 black tip performs outstanding, and would never be afraid to use it. Great information, do you by chance have link to a couple posts about the results of the kills? The MakerX seems to be common theme and well received with expansion Quoted: OP has a 16" barrel 300blk bolt gun and is looking for deer loads from those with experience with the same or similar if I understood right. So lets get this back on track before you goofballs get it locked. Mostly right, I wanted first to make sure sub 300BLK is killable round and then secondly recipes/bullet recommendations. As long as conversation is civil about ethics of sub 300BLK I welcome it (as long as the mods do as well) As noted MakerX is coming out on top and most likely will get tested first |
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Quoted: Great information, do you by chance have link to a couple posts about the results of the kills? The MakerX seems to be common theme and well received with expansion Mostly right, I wanted first to make sure sub 300BLK is killable round and then secondly recipes/bullet recommendations. As long as conversation is civil about ethics of sub 300BLK I welcome it (as long as the mods do as well) As noted MakerX is coming out on top and most likely will get tested first Quoted: Quoted: OP has a 16" barrel 300blk bolt gun and is looking for deer loads from those with experience with the same or similar if I understood right. So lets get this back on track before you goofballs get it locked. Quoted: I may or may not have killed lots of deer with subsonic 300blk. Many will still tell you it is "unethical" because a guy on youtube with 50,000 subscribers shot a non expanding bullet into properly calibrated ballistic gel, and the non expanding bullet did not expand, so it won't work, and they are professionals. Well this amateur has posted in the past detailed autopsies and results of said kills that the professionals still say can't be done. Here is my take away from being an amateur. The 3 most important aspects of subsonic hunting with a 300blk. 1. Shot placement 2. Shot placement 3. Bullet design I have used custom made lead core jacketed subsonic bullets that performed outstanding. The Maker X also did very well. The Hornady 190 has very good expansion, and at least in my hand loads hits the same spot as the 208 .30 cal bullets. Makes load testing a little cheaper. I have also used 247 grain solid lead bullets, which while they did kill, they for obvious reasons did not perform well, and I have also used hollow pointed 240gr cast which took down the largest buck I ever killed and he was on the ground in less than 25yds. But of course, it won't work according to the experts. Now, after saying all that. The Barnes 110 black tip performs outstanding, and would never be afraid to use it. Great information, do you by chance have link to a couple posts about the results of the kills? The MakerX seems to be common theme and well received with expansion Quoted: OP has a 16" barrel 300blk bolt gun and is looking for deer loads from those with experience with the same or similar if I understood right. So lets get this back on track before you goofballs get it locked. As long as conversation is civil about ethics of sub 300BLK I welcome it (as long as the mods do as well) As noted MakerX is coming out on top and most likely will get tested first Including pics on bullet performance on his kills. |
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Quoted: Great information, do you by chance have link to a couple posts about the results of the kills? The MakerX seems to be common theme and well received with expansion Mostly right, I wanted first to make sure sub 300BLK is killable round and then secondly recipes/bullet recommendations. As long as conversation is civil about ethics of sub 300BLK I welcome it (as long as the mods do as well) As noted MakerX is coming out on top and most likely will get tested first I am sure they are still on the ARFCOM server somewhere. Lost a lot of my pics with photobucket being stupid. |
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Quoted: Since this is the reloading forum, the mistake most people make is not taking into consideration that the 950-1000 fps factory subsonic bullet they use in their 8” 300BO rifle is only traveling @ 700-750 fps which is below the expansion threshold. Now, being reloaders, we can take a 220 grain projectile and load it to what would be 1200 fps out of a 16” barrel, as that is the barrel length used in the reloading manual, and now have a much better chance of reaching the fps needed for expansion. At risk of throwing gas onto this fire... Since this is the reloading forum, don't most people use some type of chronograph to know how fast their loads are traveling? And then tailor the loads to the intended firearm and/or end use? I find ballistic tables quite useful, but only if you have an accurate velocity and BC to use as a starting point. And assuming your velocity based on what is published in the reloading manual may result in an error of a couple hundred fps or more in your particular firearm. I only bring this up, as I have three different barrels in various versions of the .300 Blackout, and they all shoot very differently. And going off just barrel length would not lead you in the right direction. For example, one load with Li'l Gun and a 220 gr. SMK produces 981 fps. in my 8.5" barreled gun, but only 888 fps. from the 16" barreled rifle. I haven't shot that particular load in the 10" barrel, but I would expect it to be faster from that one than either of the others, as that barrel consistently shoots faster. So yes, to your point - tailor the load to your gun to get the optimal velocity. But don't trust that your gun will shoot the same as the one used to develop the load in the manual. |
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Quoted: At risk of throwing gas onto this fire... Since this is the reloading forum, don't most people use some type of chronograph to know how fast their loads are traveling? And then tailor the loads to the intended firearm and/or end use? I find ballistic tables quite useful, but only if you have an accurate velocity and BC to use as a starting point. And assuming your velocity based on what is published in the reloading manual may result in an error of a couple hundred fps or more in your particular firearm. I only bring this up, as I have three different barrels in various versions of the .300 Blackout, and they all shoot very differently. And going off just barrel length would not lead you in the right direction. For example, one load with Li'l Gun and a 220 gr. SMK produces 981 fps. in my 8.5" barreled gun, but only 888 fps. from the 16" barreled rifle. I haven't shot that particular load in the 10" barrel, but I would expect it to be faster from that one than either of the others, as that barrel consistently shoots faster. So yes, to your point - tailor the load to your gun to get the optimal velocity. But don't trust that your gun will shoot the same as the one used to develop the load in the manual. Great post sir. I agree. I use a chronograph for various reason ranging from curiosity, pistol/PCC velocity limitations in matches, precision shooting, and now reloading for subsonic rounds. Also good to test your loading abilities (consistency). |
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@craig24680 and anyone interested, I worked up some Maker loads to get started dialing in a hunting load. I understand you have a bolt gun with longer barrel but this may help you or others here. Regarding my data, it is up to you to vet the information relative to your platform, you do you, this worked for me, work up your own loads/data. How I got to the loads with this bullet and powder... 300blk has been interesting, I like to review and find a lot of data and boil it down to a starting point, but finding that info has been tough, not a lot of info and most "good" info is older. [ETA: Specific to n120 powder and 300blk subs] As @GarrettJ pointed out, barrel lengths matter. The boiling down of data should translate to a range of materials and charges to start. The search has been a good distraction and it is fun to work through the "problems" and I look forward to supers. "Problems" - besides variations in data and barrels and barrel lengths - I have seen reports of loads/combos, in general, that result in unstable bullets. Keyholing, tumbling… Specific to Makers there are a couple of reports of signs of bullet "wobble" or "swipe" on paper targets. Not wanting that on a target or especially in a suppressor, I wondered if it is a bullet issue? Barrel? Twist? Velocity? Powder type? Combo? As such I approached the Makers with caution and only loaded up a couple rounds each in four increments of powder. Okay, now what OAL to start with... Over on [another forum], that may be cartridge specific, I found posts from a person that seemed pretty well versed in the 300blk. It is the interwebs so take this with a grain of powder. This will not be a direct quote but the poster stated something along the lines of - 300blk loads like to be somewhat compressed, bullet base sitting in the powder leads to accuracy more so than jump to lands that person found. Further they added that to find a good OAL, take a fired case with fired primer in it and dump the targeted powder charge in the case. Then place a bullet in the case/on the powder and measure OAL. Next determine your chamber OAL (and mag I suppose) and use the smaller OALs. In that specific post/thread, it was 11.0 grains of VV n120 and the 200gr Maker Rex Subsonic Expanding bullet that were being discussed. Add to that – it was relative to load dev for an 8.5" AR platform 300blk. This blind pig found an acorn as that was my powder, bullet, and platform. I used processed LC 5.56 brass, CCI SRP, VV n120, 200gr Maker Rex Sub-Sonic Expanding bullets. For OAL, I did as recommended and with slight compression (technically, mind you) of the bullet in the powder of all loads I measured and came up with an OAL of 2.200" The goal was: to make sure these were not wobbly, find a sub-sonic velocity around 1,050fps, and a load that functioned the system. Accuracy and final load to be refined in the next session. Given the goal and using expensive bullets, only two rounds per interval were loaded except for five rounds of 11.0gr just because. SO, YES, these are very limited results. I hope this helps as data is limited for Maker Rex 200 gr and VV n120 for 300blk. 10.4 gr = 956.3 fps (trigger reset but did not cycle a round from the mag BUT that might be me not seating the mag fully, I am using a brass catcher) 10.6 gr = 981.7 fps 10.8 gr = 1,003.5 fps (feed issue, round tipped up and did not go into feed ramps - again maybe me/mag seat???) 11.0 gr = 1,039.5 fps (3 rounds, unsuppressed) And because the holes were round without swipes... 11.0 gr = 1,047.7 fps (2 rounds, suppressed) Unless noted, all cycled/seated/extracted fine. Those cycle issues were likely my fault not seating the mag well enough while using a "Brass Goat". Great catcher but very streamlined/solid box right next to the mag. Examined gun and mag and no unburnt powder all over as when I ran 1680. I am using a 1x prism on the AR pistol with 55 year old eyes so this was not a precision exercise (thank God!). Bullet holes were round, no swipes. There was a warm up with five of my Berry 220gr loads before these - 872.5 fps with full function. VV n120 but will have to add load data later. Next loads will be 10.9 and 11.0, will likely put the LPVO on it to test for groups. Will add pictures next time. Hope this helps someone! |
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Quoted: @craig24680 and anyone interested, I worked up some Maker loads to get started dialing in a hunting load. I understand you have a bolt gun with longer barrel but this may help you or others here. Regarding my data, it is up to you to vet the information relative to your platform, you do you, this worked for me, work up your own loads/data. How I got to the loads with this bullet and powder... 300blk has been interesting, I like to review and find a lot of data and boil it down to a starting point, but finding that info has been tough, not a lot of info and most "good" info is older. As @GarrettJ pointed out, barrel lengths matter. The boiling down of data should translate to a range of materials and charges to start. The search has been a good distraction and it is fun to work through the "problems" and I look forward to supers. "Problems" - besides variations in data and barrels and barrel lengths - I have seen reports of loads/combos, in general, that result in unstable bullets. Keyholing, tumbling… Specific to Makers there are a couple of reports of signs of bullet "wobble" or "swipe" on paper targets. Not wanting that on a target or especially in a suppressor, I wondered if it is a bullet issue? Barrel? Twist? Velocity? Powder type? Combo? As such I approached the Makers with caution and only loaded up a couple rounds each in four increments of powder. Okay, now what OAL to start with... Over on [another forum], that may be cartridge specific, I found posts from a person that seemed pretty well versed in the 300blk. It is the interwebs so take this with a grain of powder. This will not be a direct quote but the poster stated something along the lines of - 300blk loads like to be somewhat compressed, bullet base sitting in the powder leads to accuracy more so than jump to lands that person found. Further they added that to find a good OAL, take a fired case with fired primer in it and dump the targeted powder charge in the case. Then place a bullet in the case/on the powder and measure OAL. Next determine your chamber OAL (and mag I suppose) and use the smaller OALs. In that specific post/thread, it was 11.0 grains of VV n120 and the 200gr Maker Rex Subsonic Expanding bullet that were being discussed. Add to that – it was relative to load dev for an 8.5" AR platform 300blk. This blind pig found an acorn as that was my powder, bullet, and platform. I used processed LC 5.56 brass, CCI SRP, VV n120, 200gr Maker Rex Sub-Sonic Expanding bullets. For OAL, I did as recommended and with slight compression (technically, mind you) of the bullet in the powder of all loads I measured and came up with an OAL of 2.200" The goal was: to make sure these were not wobbly, find a sub-sonic velocity around 1,050fps, and a load that functioned the system. Accuracy and final load to be refined in the next session. Given the goal and using expensive bullets, only two rounds per interval were loaded except for five rounds of 11.0gr just because. SO, YES, these are very limited results. I hope this helps as data is limited for Maker Rex 200 gr and VV n120 for 300blk. 10.4 gr = 956.3 fps (trigger reset but did not cycle a round from the mag BUT that might be me not seating the mag fully, I am using a brass catcher) 10.6 gr = 981.7 fps 10.8 gr = 1,003.5 fps (feed issue, round tipped up and did not go into feed ramps - again maybe me/mag seat???) 11.0 gr = 1,039.5 fps (3 rounds, unsuppressed) And because the holes were round without swipes... 11.0 gr = 1,047.7 fps (2 rounds, suppressed) Unless noted, all cycled/seated/extracted fine. Those cycle issues were likely my fault not seating the mag well enough while using a "Brass Goat". Great catcher but very streamlined/solid box right next to the mag. Examined gun and mag and no unburnt powder all over as when I ran 1680. I am using a 1x prism on the AR pistol with 55 year old eyes so this was not a precision exercise (thank God!). Bullet holes were round, no swipes. There was a warm up with five of my Berry 220gr loads before these - 872.5 fps with full function. VV n120 but will have to add load data later. Next loads will be 10.9 and 11.0, will likely put the LPVO on it to test for groups. Will add pictures next time. Hope this helps someone! @RWEIII great info and very detailed, many thanks!!! |
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Quoted: I have killed.6 deer and 1 black bear using a handloaded Makets 200gr REX. Works just like a broadheaded arrow just with more thump. All expired within 30 yards. Velocity of 1025 avg. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184979/1000002512_jpg-3351740.JPG Do want! Never seen! |
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Quoted: Full power rounds behind a suppressor Yeah you'll get a crack but who cares... don't have to worry about threading the needle with "I hope my subs expand at less than .45 ACP velocities" They'll just work every time FWIW, Last weekend I was at a send off party for a friends son joining SF. There were 40+ people there and I took him out front and told him to shoot this into the bank. It was my 8” 300 blk with 190 subx’s loaded to 1,150. He fired 20 rounds and there were people within 40’ and not a single person “heard” a thing. |
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Quoted: I may or may not have killed lots of deer with subsonic 300blk. Many will still tell you it is "unethical" because a guy on youtube with 50,000 subscribers shot a non expanding bullet into properly calibrated ballistic gel, and the non expanding bullet did not expand, so it won't work, and they are professionals. Well this amateur has posted in the past detailed autopsies and results of said kills that the professionals still say can't be done. Here is my take away from being an amateur. The 3 most important aspects of subsonic hunting with a 300blk. 1. Shot placement 2. Shot placement 3. Bullet design I have used custom made lead core jacketed subsonic bullets that performed outstanding. The Maker X also did very well. The Hornady 190 has very good expansion, and at least in my hand loads hits the same spot as the 208 .30 cal bullets. Makes load testing a little cheaper. I have also used 247 grain solid lead bullets, which while they did kill, they for obvious reasons did not perform well, and I have also used hollow pointed 240gr cast which took down the largest buck I ever killed and he was on the ground in less than 25yds. But of course, it won't work according to the experts. Now, after saying all that. The Barnes 110 black tip performs outstanding, and would never be afraid to use it. FWIW v2. I recommend against using std Remington subs for shooting a bear to a friend. The bear came in and hit the chicken coop so he grabbed what he had. That was a 300 blk loaded with Remington subs. The good thing is the bear died and not him. I went out to help him with the bear. I found one of the subs along the backbone bent @ 30 degrees. Fortunately he got something like 5 rounds in the bear before it knew wtf was happening. |
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Attached File I gotta swap a day scope onto this 9.5” 300BO “bolt action” of mine for a hunt in Scott County in two weeks. I will be using a 190gr Sub-X after doing a less than scientific milk jug test a few weeks back. I got a 1680 load to get great consistency at 1045-1055 fps |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/523616/IMG_5540_jpeg-3364399.JPG I gotta swap a day scope onto this 9.5” 300BO “bolt action” of mine for a hunt in Scott County in two weeks. I will be using a 190gr Sub-X after doing a less than scientific milk jug test a few weeks back. I got a 1680 load to get great consistency at 1045-1055 fps Very cool rig, would like to hear more about that and the load! I like milk jug tests and look forward to hearing how that goes! Funny, my neighbor hunts a place in Rowan Co and you are hunting in Scott... |
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Quoted: Very cool rig, would like to hear more about that and the load! I like milk jug tests and look forward to hearing how that goes! Funny, my neighbor hunts a place in Rowan Co and you are hunting in Scott... And my other place is in Jackson county. Just don’t know enough folks here in Clark Co. yet to get in on a spot. I am getting those velocities with 10gr on the nose of 1680 |
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Quoted: Really?? You don't understand that a subsonic round that measures 1000fps out of a 16" barrel will not be 1000fps out of an 8" barrel ? I even posted a table above that showed velocity loss with shorter barrel lengths. Illustration for you. Going from 16" to 7.5 was @150fps slower. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/146093/IMG_2728_jpeg-3352237.JPG Watch it for yourself.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VNl7QXykUYQuoted: Quoted: I do not understand your obsession here. 1k fps is 1k fps. What difference does it matter what length tube it comes out of? The performance on game will be the same. Really?? You don't understand that a subsonic round that measures 1000fps out of a 16" barrel will not be 1000fps out of an 8" barrel ? I even posted a table above that showed velocity loss with shorter barrel lengths. Illustration for you. Going from 16" to 7.5 was @150fps slower. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/146093/IMG_2728_jpeg-3352237.JPG Watch it for yourself.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VNl7QXykUYAnd the other guy seems to have missed what you were saying and then refused to listen whenever you tried to explain again, preferring instead to just be condescending and not let it go. I just want you to know that you aren't taking crazy pills. Obviously since op is using a 16" barrel it's not very relevant for his specific case but i took your comment as a helpful reminder amidst the general discussion occurring about the use of subs for hunting in general. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 300BLK SUBsonic deer loads (Page 1 of 2)
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