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Posted: 9/14/2024 7:06:09 PM EDT
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I have a friend who is on a large local SAU team. We’ve been talking about the rise/easy availability of 3D manufacturing and the parts that can be made. Yes, I am an 07/02. He wants to arrange a demo for his SAU team where I print some of the MGs that are out there. Most of them can be printed in just a few minutes. Obviously they’re plastic, and aside from a complete lower receiver, quite small, and hard to serialize effectively. Not only that, they’re mostly junk and not useful for more than a mag or 2 So what I’m trying to understand - can I print several items in the morning, do a demo in the afternoon, and then just destroy them after without having to serialize them, create a form 2 etc? If so, how would I travel from my shop to their range? Just carry my FFL and 02 paperwork? Or do I to serialize them with a metal plate and file a form 2 on each one before I leave the shop? Secondarily to that, if I do need to file the F2, when I’m done with the demo, I’m figuring just smashing the parts with a hammer and saving the bits with the serial plate in a zip lock or whatever and reporting them destroyed via letter. I’m going to contact my IOI next week, but he’s often a little long to respond so if figured I’d ask you guys. |
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1.) Law's the law, regardless of what an IOI might advise. But there's beat the rap vs. beat the ride. To be safe, I'd engrave it in some manner and complete a Form 2 if I was leaving my premises with it. I'd have some concern that a US Attorney might get cute with the legal requirement that the item must be serialized "at the time it is sold, shipped" etc. Could someone trying to jam you up argue that taking it across town away from your licensed premises is "shipping"? (Even though "disposition" is a term for when a firearm is logged out of your bound books, could the requirement that it be engraved "prior to disposition" be argued "finished product was taken off premises", even if that's adding to the law incorrectly?) 2.) That said, the law seems okay with your next-business-day requirement understanding. But consider what might happen if you were pulled over, hospitalized for a night after an accident, or otherwise found yourself in the weeds explaining your possession of unmarked machinegun conversion devices. If you've decided nothing can go wrong, then google Don Walsh's case law where he did similar with unserialized NFA items for government demo :) That case had the Court giving the following reasoning for a guilty verdict: "Appellants contend that because the Treasury regulation allows a Form 2 to be filed no later than the close of the next business day after manufacture, a serial number may be placed on the firearm within that time and satisfy the requirement of 26 U.S.C. § 5842(a) that a firearm be serialized. Under appellants' theory, a manufacturer could possess an unserialized firearm subsequent to manufacture but before the close of the next business day and not violate 26 U.S.C. § 5861(i). We reject this theory and hold that a manufacturer must place a serial number on a firearm prior to or immediately upon completion of the firearm.8 The registration procedure for manufactured firearms contained in the Treasury regulation does not provide additional time within which to place a serial number on a firearm." For the record though, here's the law: "§ 479.102 Identification of firearms. a.Identification required. Except as otherwise provided in this section, you, as a manufacturer... of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows: "MACHINE GUN CONVERSION PART"... Each ...machinegun... that is not a component part of a complete weapon... at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section with an individual serial number... 6.PERIOD OF TIME TO IDENTIFY FIREARMS. You, as a manufacturer, shall identify a complete weapon... no later than close of the next business day following the date the entire manufacturing process has ended for the weapon or device, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner. You must identify each part or modular subpart defined as a machine gun (frame or receiver, or conversion part)... at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of no later than close of the next business day following the date the entire manufacturing process has ended for the part, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner. For purposes of this paragraph, firearms awaiting materials, parts, or equipment repair to be completed are presumed, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, to be in the manufacturing process." |
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I got two 3D printed swift links (on form 2's) confiscated by the ATF. They said it violated the law about firearms being undetectable by a metal detector. Nothing happened to my FFL and there were no reprecussions but they took them. |
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Originally Posted By Type7SOT: I got two 3D printed swift links (on form 2's) confiscated by the ATF. They said it violated the law about firearms being undetectable by a metal detector. Nothing happened to my FFL and there were no reprecussions but they took them. That seems pretty disingenuous. Glock switch? Lightning link? DIAS? |
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Originally Posted By kel: 1.) Law's the law, regardless of what an IOI might advise. But there's beat the rap vs. beat the ride. To be safe, I'd engrave it in some manner and complete a Form 2 if I was leaving my premises with it. That’s probably the safest bet. It’s not super difficult to do. If I had a range at my shop where we could shoot a lot, I would probably just make them and trash them. But leaving the shop is where I’m feeling “icky”. |
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Originally Posted By Type7SOT: None of those, they were swift links, google it if you havent heard of them. They were engraved and registered on a form 2. No, I know what they are, they are exactly the topic of this post. My point was that sounds like BS from the ATF. You likely couldn’t detect a lightning link or a Glock switch either. Heck, what about a new frontier Armory polymer lower? If I form 2 one of those, will they confiscate it? See what I’m saying? |
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Originally Posted By ragedracer1977: No, I know what they are, they are exactly the topic of this post. My point was that sounds like BS from the ATF. You likely couldn’t detect a lightning link or a Glock switch either. Heck, what about a new frontier Armory polymer lower? If I form 2 one of those, will they confiscate it? See what I’m saying? Yeah, agreed, and I spoke with a lawyer about it right after. He said it was bullshit, but not worth the fight. Atf is gonna do what atf is gonna do, especially when it comes to FFL's. |
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Originally Posted By ragedracer1977: So what I’m trying to understand - can I print several items in the morning, do a demo in the afternoon, and then just destroy them after without having to serialize them, create a form 2 etc? If so, how would I travel from my shop to their range? Just carry my FFL and 02 paperwork? Hell no. Gotta do it all. Only way around it is if ATF gives a variance. Also you can only legally make a MG for sale to MIL/LE. |
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Originally Posted By Type7SOT: I got two 3D printed swift links (on form 2's) confiscated by the ATF. They said it violated the law about firearms being undetectable by a metal detector. Nothing happened to my FFL and there were no reprecussions but they took them. Who confiscated them? IOI or ATF Special Agent? IOI has no law enforcement authority. |
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Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Who confiscated them? IOI or ATF Special Agent? IOI has no law enforcement authority. It was an IOI along with some sort of manager from the local office, his boss I guess. They made us "voluntarily" surrender it with threat of prosecution if we refused. So not technically "confiscated" but still confiscated. That was years ago, never heard about it again. Edit: they also told me never to talk about it online lol. |
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Just heat-set a small metal plate with your engraved information. You can have an engraving/trophy shop make you a whole sheet of tags with different serial numbers, then just cut them out and use them as you need them. Then they'll have metal content and be serialized/engraved. I 100% would not leave my property without a MG that is engraved and form 2'd. |
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Originally Posted By Type7SOT: It was an IOI along with some sort of manager from the local office, his boss I guess. They made us "voluntarily" surrender it with threat of prosecution if we refused. So not technically "confiscated" but still confiscated. That was years ago, never heard about it again. Edit: they also told me never to talk about it online lol. In their personal collection now! |
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: Just heat-set a small metal plate with your engraved information. You can have an engraving/trophy shop make you a whole sheet of tags with different serial numbers, then just cut them out and use them as you need them. Then they'll have metal content and be serialized/engraved. I 100% would not leave my property without a MG that is engraved and form 2'd. I just went ahead and bought a cnc engraver 🤣 |
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