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thanks, thats how i been reading it but some i know disagree. im a single RP on a LLC There's no other way to read it. As I posted in the guide, Instruction 2(g) of the Form 1 says: Law Enforcement Notification. The applicant must provide a copy of the Form 1 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who has jurisdiction over the area of the applicant's address shown in item 3b of the Form 1. In addition, if the applicant is other than an individual, a copy of the Form 5320.23, National Firearms Act (NFA) Responsible Person Questionnaire, for each responsible person must be provided to their respective chief law enforcement officer. The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the Sheriff; the Head of the State Police; or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor. On the Form 4, it's 2(f): Law Enforcement Notification. The transferee must provide a copy of the Form 4 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who has jurisdiction over the area of the transferee's address shown in item 2a of the Form 4. In addition, if the transferee is other than an individual, a copy of the Form 5320.23, National Firearms Act (NFA) Responsible Person Questionnaire, completed by each responsible person must be provided to their respective chief law enforcement officer. The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the Sheriff; the Head of the State Police; or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor. And then on the RPQ, it's Instruction 5: Item 5- Law Enforcement Notification: Each responsible person must provide a notification on this form of the proposed making or acquisition of an NFA firearm to his/her chief law enforcement officer having jurisdiction where the responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the Sheriff; the Head of the State Police; or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor. Remember it's not only "local" as in city/county...there are multiple people at the state level that qualify. It also doesn't say you have to send the F1/F4 and the RPQ to the same CLEO. |
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Beneficiaries generally would not be responsible persons unless they were also trustees. Quoted:
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Wow. As someone who put in a ton of form 1's and form 4's on a trust pre-41F reading this new process has my head spinning. When it says all responsible parties must have background checks, fingerprints, pictures, etc. does this only apply to the Trustees or do I have to get my underaged children who are beneficiaries of the Trust fingerprinted and background checked too? 
I hope Trump gets rid of this shit all together. What a bunch of communist bullshit.Eta: Bitching aside thank you Bigwaylon for putting all this info together. I've said it before, you are a great asset to this website! Clarification question: My wife, my son (underage), and my attorney (brother-in-law) are successor trustees on my trust. The way it is currently written, they become the trustee only when the person "above" them is removed from the trust due to death or resignation as trustee. They are also listed in the beneficiary section with the same stipulations to becoming the trustee. They do not currently have any rights to possess items in the trust until they are trustees. So my questions is: Are they considered responsible persons and therefore need to be fingerprinted and listed on the forms? |
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Clarification question: My wife, my son (underage), and my attorney (brother-in-law) are successor trustees on my trust. The way it is currently written, they become the trustee only when the person "above" them is removed from the trust due to death or resignation as trustee. They are also listed in the beneficiary section with the same stipulations to becoming the trustee. They do not currently have any rights to possess items in the trust until they are trustees. So my questions is: Are they considered responsible persons and therefore need to be fingerprinted and listed on the forms? Definition (e) on the Form 1 says: Responsible Person. In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity. In the case of a trust, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust includes any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of the trust. Examples of who may be considered a responsible person include settlors/grantors, trustees, partners, members, officers, directors, board members, or owners. An example of who may be excluded from this definition of responsible person is the beneficiary of a trust, if the beneficiary does not have the capability to exercise the enumerated powers or authorities. Seems to be pretty clear what the answer is based on your question and the definition on the form. |
| So the police department I used to complete my fingerprint cards wrote in height and eye color in the wrong format. Any idea if it would be an issue if I used white out tape to mark over those areas and wrote in the correct info? I know you can cover over prints and roll again but am unsure about the text portion of the cards. |
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So the police department I used to complete my fingerprint cards wrote in height and eye color in the wrong format. Any idea if it would be an issue if I used white out tape to mark over those areas and wrote in the correct info? I know you can cover over prints and roll again but am unsure about the text portion of the cards. Not sure it'll matter. You could probably get away with: 1. Leaving them as is 2. White out and write again 3. Strike through and write again |
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Is there anywhere that states how new the finger prints and photo has to be? Or can I have lets say 50 copies made and just store them until needed? Straight from the form: Photographs and Fingerprints. An individual maker (including any Federally licensed collector who is an individual but not any other type of Federal firearms licensee) must (1) attach to each copy in item 12 of the ATF Form 1, a 2 inch x 2 inch photograph of his/her frontal view taken within one year prior to the date of the application and (2) submit two properly completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card with blue lines) with application. The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and taken by someone properly equipped to take them. Never seen an expiration date for prints. It shouldn't matter, as they don't change...but some people get them rejected if they're over a year. Never been a consistent answer from the ATF on it that I've seen. |
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Has there been any change or clarification on this one the state level notification. First time doing a form1 and just had my CLEO docs returned to me by state patrol (OH) with a letter stating I need to contact my local LEO. Have I done my part or where do I go from here?
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Has there been any change or clarification on this one the state level notification. First time doing a form1 and just had my CLEO docs returned to me by state patrol (OH) with a letter stating I need to contact my local LEO. Have I done my part or where do I go from here? Thanks You've done your part. The forms themselves list state-level CLEO as qualifying recipients. They were notified, and chose not to keep it because they're clueless. The state level department is what you put on the ATF copies, so everything matches. Sleep well. 
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I submitted my Fingerprint cards, based on the FBI guide, as to what was required. My first few submissions didn't get signed or filled out, beyond what the sheriff's deputy filled in from my drivers license and state of birth. Today, I was told the social security # was required, but the ORI from my sheriff's office (they provided the cards) was OK.
Anyone know what ATF requires on the fingerprint cards? |
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Unfortunately, it's seems like it depends on what day of the week it is and who happens to open the envelope. Seems to be what I am finding also. Last time I called and asked ATF about "reason for printing" as my sheriffs office printed "law enforcement applicant" on my cards. Lady on the phone said it was ok, they correct it. This time I called to ask what info was needed, as I was at sheriff's office and could add/correct info if needed. Lady today said social security number is required. Which I dont understand, as my social security number is not listed on my Form 1 application. |
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I am about to file a Form 1 for an SBR, under a Trust, and I have only a couple questions after reading this thread.
I need a photo on each of the two copies of the Form 1 for the ATF, a third copy of the Form 1 and another photo for the CLEO, and a photo on the Form 23, for a total of 4 photos, correct? And the fingerprint cards, two cards with the Form 1 and Two cards with the Form 23. But I would need one more card, and no photo for the CLEO for the Form 23, correct? That means, 5 fingerprint cards, and 4 photos total. Correct? Thanks. |
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I am about to file a Form 1 for an SBR, under a Trust, and I have only a couple questions after reading this thread. I need a photo on each of the two copies of the Form 1 for the ATF, a third copy of the Form 1 and another photo for the CLEO, and a photo on the Form 23, for a total of 4 photos, correct? And the fingerprint cards, two cards with the Form 1 and Two cards with the Form 23. But I would need one more card, and no photo for the CLEO for the Form 23, correct? That means, 5 fingerprint cards, and 4 photos total. Correct? Thanks. I'm not sure you read the thread. Go back and read the Form 1 for entity section, especially the "actions to take" list at the end. If you still have questions, let me know. You only provide photos/FP cards to the ATF, and you only provide them with the F1 for individual, or RPQ for entity. |
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Looks like I only need one picture, and 2 fingerprint cards. ATF gets the photo on RPQ with 2 cards, CLEO gets RPQ, but no form 1, no card and no photo? How do I find my CLEO? Is it the local PD, the County Sheriff, or the State Police? Read. The. Instructions. ATF gets two Form 1s and an RPQ. CLEO gets the third F1 and the other RPQ. The instructions in the guide spell it out. The forms themselves have footers on them that tell you what pages go where. The Form 1 says: Law Enforcement Notification. The applicant must provide a copy of the Form 1 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who has jurisdiction over the area of the applicant's address shown in item 3b of the Form 1. In addition, if the applicant is other than an individual, a copy of the Form 5320.23, National Firearms Act (NFA) Responsible Person Questionnaire, for each responsible person must be provided to their respective chief law enforcement officer. The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the Sheriff; the Head of the State Police; or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor.. (the list is actually longer than that, but those should get you started) |
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I am reading them now. I read them before, but legal BS doesnt stick the first time, it takes a minute for it to gel.
In section 7 and 8 Form 1 it says to sign the form in 7. and in 8 it says Name and Title of Authorized Official. Is that MY name, Trustee, or the name of the trust itself? |
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I am reading them now. I read them before, but legal BS doesnt stick the first time, it takes a minute for it to gel. In section 7 and 8 Form 1 it says to sign the form in 7. and in 8 it says Name and Title of Authorized Official. Is that MY name, Trustee, or the name of the trust itself? Your name as representative of the trust. Your trust can't sign the form. I always sign first, MI & last, as trustee...and print first, MI & last, as trustee. I don't think I have any legal BS in my part of the guide, but I don't have that answer spelled out any more than "sign name, print name". |
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Hey guys. I'm working on my first Form 1. It's for an SBR as an individual.
This thread has been a big help but I have a question about the fingerprint cards. Everything I've read on page 1 and 2 here state the the ORI block on the cards should read "ATF - NFA Branch, Martinsburg VA, etc." Well, I got the cards done today at my local PD and the cards they provided are stamped with their local PD info in the ORI block. Is this going to be a problem? If so, is there an easy way to correct it? Thanks. |
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I ordered my fingerprint cards from Amazon. Does the ATF require you to use a certain kind of ink? When I got my CCW from Arizona, they required a specific type of ink to be used. I've never seen the ATF answer that question. I've seen many people use various methods, but Sirchie is one of the recommended brands. You can buy direct, from Amazon or eBay, and probably many other sources. |
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Do I send the Declaration of Trust, the Certification of trust, or both, with the Form 1 and Form 23 to the ATF? And do I send the witness pages that were signed and embossed by the Notary when I set up the trust?
I didnt see it on the Actions To Take portions of either Form 1 or 23, but I have read that something has to be sent in |
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Do I send the Declaration of Trust, the Certification of trust, or both, with the Form 1 and Form 23 to the ATF? And do I send the witness pages that were signed and embossed by the Notary when I set up the trust? I didnt see it on the Actions To Take portions of either Form 1 or 23, but I have read that something has to be sent in Send it all. They need to see all signatures and notary stamps. If you have the impressed stamp instead of ink, you can very lightly shade the original with a pencil before you make a copy. The Certification of Trust probably isn't necessary, but the Declaration, trustee pages, schedule(s), etc all need to go. In this case too much is better than too little. |
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White label with correct info printed. Or white label to cover it up and write the correct info. I sent my F1 back in Oct., wasn't aware of this at that time.. Is this a recent change or something? I'm really hoping it isn't something that gets me delayed or denied 
Edit: Never mind, I see I fucked that up 
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I sent my F1 back in Oct., wasn't aware of this at that time.. Is this a recent change or something? I'm really hoping it isn't something that gets me delayed or denied
Edit: Never mind, I see I fucked that up Not sure exactly what your issue is, but some people report that the NFA Branch will stick a label on the cards with the correct ORI. I've never had the need, so I can't confirm... |
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Not sure exactly what your issue is, but some people report that the NFA Branch will stick a label on the cards with the correct ORI. I've never had the need, so I can't confirm... The print cards I got on post in Kuwait had an ORI for the Def. Security Service outta PA. I hadn't noticed at the time that the ORI was supposed to be the ATF's, so I had sent of my F1 without altering the ORI on the print cards I submitted. I caught on tonight after reading up on a few posts. I see I originally quoted the wrong post. |
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When I got my Form 1 Packet from the ATF today, it included two copies of a Form 5330.20 as well. Perhaps you should add that form, and how to complete it to the OP. No idea why they're still sending those. 1. They've never been required when the applicant is an entity 2. They stopped being necessary for individuals when the previous F1/F4 were released, as the questions were incorporated in the F1/F4 3. They're not necessary with the 41F versions of the F1/F4, as the questions are answered on the F1/F4 for an individual, and on the RPQ for all RPs in an entity As info, here is the announcement for the F1 & F5, and the F4 was done separately. The date on that page is not when it was actually released, just the last time they messed with that page. |
Thanks for the great info Big Waylon! 
Buying my first NFA since the big change and needed a few question answered and this thread delivered! We will be up in Gatlinburg next month so if your close to there let me know and refreshments and/or dinner is on me. 
BigDozer66 |
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A couple random bits of info that are in the instructions of the current forms, which weren't on the previous forms.
1. The following Instruction can be found on the Form 1 (2i), Form 4 (2j), and Form 5 (2i): Photocopies or Computer Generated Versions or Downloaded Version from ATF Website. The form may be copied or downloaded (for example, from the ATF website (www.atf.gov)). The form does not have to be printed front to back. Note: the "does not have to be printed front to back" is definitely a change from how we've done it in the past 2. The following Instruction can be found on the 5320.20 (b): The registered owner of NFA firearm(s) shall complete two copies of ATF Form 5320.20 and forward the forms to the Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405 (Attention: NFA Branch). The form can be submitted via facsimile to the NFA Branch at (304) 616-4501 or may be scanned and emailed to [email protected]. Note: while some have emailed them to the ATF in the past, this is the first time I've seen it included as a valid option on the form |
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For Form 1, box 4a, do I need to put the full address of the lower manufacturer on my form, or will Name, City and State work just fine?
Example one: Aero Precision Inc. Tacoma, WA Example two: Aero Precision Inc. 2338 S Holgate St Tacoma, WA 98402 Does example 1 work or do I need to put the full address? |
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For Form 1, box 4a, do I need to put the full address of the lower manufacturer on my form, or will Name, City and State work just fine? Example one: Aero Precision Inc. Tacoma, WA Example two: Aero Precision Inc. 2338 S Holgate St Tacoma, WA 98402 Does example 1 work or do I need to put the full address? |
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I didn't see a form 5 guide so figured I would double check here in case anyone knew.
I read the thread and it says only 2 photos are needed for F1/F4, but wasn't sure if for any reason the F5 was different in the requirements. Just like the F1/F4 it isn't greyed out, but 2g doesn't make it clear. |
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I'm about to submit a Form 5320.20 for an intrastate move (stayed in FL and in the same county). I believe this may not be required, but next I am going to submit another Form .20 for interstate travel for this year and I want the starting address to be my current registered address so that there's no confusion on the ATF's side (perhaps a pipe dream).
My question is about box 1, the name and address of the current registered owner. I've already moved to the new address and I have amended my trust with that new address. Do I put my new address or my old (registered) address in box 1? It seems that I should put the old address which is the address I registered my SBRs under, but my fear is that they will mail the approved Form .20 to that address, and I no longer live there and won't get the form. I'd rather put my new address in box 1, but I'm afraid that will confuse the ATF since the registry does not have that address as the current registered address for the SBRs. @BigWaylon What's the right answer? Also, should I leave the dates fields blank? Put today's date? Thanks as always! |
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I didn't see a form 5 guide so figured I would double check here in case anyone knew. I read the thread and it says only 2 photos are needed for F1/F4, but wasn't sure if for any reason the F5 was different in the requirements. Just like the F1/F4 it isn't greyed out, but 2g doesn't make it clear. Which would say they would be treated the same. |
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I'm about to submit a Form 5320.20 for an intrastate move (stayed in FL and in the same county). I believe this may not be required, but next I am going to submit another Form .20 for interstate travel for this year and I want the starting address to be my current registered address so that there's no confusion on the ATF's side (perhaps a pipe dream). My question is about box 1, the name and address of the current registered owner. I've already moved to the new address and I have amended my trust with that new address. Do I put my new address or my old (registered) address in box 1? It seems that I should put the old address which is the address I registered my SBRs under, but my fear is that they will mail the approved Form .20 to that address, and I no longer live there and won't get the form. I'd rather put my new address in box 1, but I'm afraid that will confuse the ATF since the registry does not have that address as the current registered address for the SBRs. @BigWaylon What's the right answer? Also, should I leave the dates fields blank? Put today's date? Thanks as always! Fill out the permanent move forms with your old address and current address. Fill out the temp transport forms with your current address. Mail them all in the same envelope, with the perm ones paperclipped together, and the temp ones paperclipped together under those. On top of those stacks would be a cover letter with a couple sentences explaining it...including the request to make sure they were mailed back to XX address. (That should be simple, as they'll just fold them so the address in 1 shows through the window, and they'll just need to make one of the temp forms on top.) For dates, I'm not sure what they would do if the field were left blank. I would probably do something like you mention with today's date for both dates in the range. |
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Does the ATF wait for the CLEO to send an acknowledgement that he/she received their copy before they'll approve? Are the CLEO's required to keep copies of these notifications? If not the step seems silly and a colossal waste of everyone's time. If there are no requirements for the CLEO to acknowledge or keep filed what prevents an applicant from blowing off that step all togther?
I'm not advocating this and would never skip a requirement. I'm just trying to make sense of the new process. Thanks for the insightful thread BW! |
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1. Does the ATF wait for the CLEO to send an acknowledgement that he/she received their copy before they'll approve? 2. Are the CLEO's required to keep copies of these notifications? 3. If not the step seems silly and a colossal waste of everyone's time. If there are no requirements for the CLEO to acknowledge or keep filed what prevents an applicant from blowing off that step all togther? 2. No 3. Maybe someday they perform spot audits? In case you've never read it, here is the letter the ATF sent to CLEOs. It says it's up to the CLEO as to whether they retain or dispose of the notifications. And the forms themselves tell the CLEO there's no action required on their part. |
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1. No 2. No 3. Maybe someday they perform spot audits? In case you've never read it, here is the letter the ATF sent to CLEOs. It says it's up to the CLEO as to whether they retain or dispose of the notifications. And the forms themselves tell the CLEO there's no action required on their part. |
| How would one go about checking on post 41F submissions for form 1 and 4? I just submitted mine last week and the checks cleared yesterday. I know I have a long wait, but since I have no control numbers or anything, I was just curious. Also, since this is my first submission, am I to assume no news is good news and I am to just wait it out? Thanks |
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How would one go about checking on post 41F submissions for form 1 and 4? I just submitted mine last week and the checks cleared yesterday. I know I have a long wait, but since I have no control numbers or anything, I was just curious. Also, since this is my first submission, am I to assume no news is good news and I am to just wait it out? Thanks Check being cashed is one data point. You can call the NFA Branch at some point and they'll confirm they received it and it's in their system (since the ATF isn't the one you handled the payment), and that's another data point. After that, it'll either be approved, not approved, returned without action, or sent back with an error letter. |
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