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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What's The Story Here? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/4/2022 7:11:54 AM EDT
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https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-M4-Carbine-Short-Barrel-Rifle-Lower-Receiver-p/556lr-sbr.htm I receiver by itself can be an SBR? |
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Quoted: So someone can build their own SBR using Form 4 instead of Form 1? I don't see the advantage. Quoted: Quoted: Yes, the factory registered it as an SBR. So someone can build their own SBR using Form 4 instead of Form 1? I don't see the advantage. Typically LEO agencies buy these... |
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Quoted: Looks like they put a stock tube on it to make it capable of taking a stock. Doesn’t make a bit of difference. Read the instructions on the 4473 for types of firearms. These are “other firearms”…not “long guns”. And it makes no difference if they can only be built into a rifle or not. Without a barrel…they’re other firearms (not to be confused with AOWs). Exact same logic of why you can remove the upper from an SBR and sell it without any NFA paperwork, because it’s not an NFA firearm at that point. |
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This was a common practice for along time before ATF put a stop to it. I had a few of my dealers that dealt with it. Most dealers just copy the info down including barrel length info so it looks like a normal transfer on paper. One of the dealers I'm aware of used to zip tie a barreled upper on for the purpose of transfer. I guess everything just comes around again and again. Unless something changed my understanding is it's not kosher because like mentioned above it's not an SBR. |
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Is a rifle a firearm subject to the NFA? Is a rifle a firearm subject to the NFA? A rifle is defined, in part, as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. A rifle is subject to the NFA only if the rifle has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. A weapon made from a rifle is also a firearm subject to the NFA if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. [26 U.S.C. §§ 5845(a)(3)-(4), (c)] |
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Quoted: I had a customer buy one of these today. AU needs to contact ATF pronto to be told why these aren't NFA. Quoted: Quoted: That makes zero sense. Without a barrel, it can't be a rifle. And if it can't be a rifle, it can't be a short-barreled rifle.  I had a customer buy one of these today. AU needs to contact ATF pronto to be told why these aren't NFA. So how is this going to shake out? Do I need to cancel this order? @DogtownTom |
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Quoted: So how is this going to shake out? Do I need to cancel this order? @DogtownTom No need to cancel any order. If I receive a lower receiver that is accompanied by a Form 3........I'll just notify ATF NFA Div that its no longer in NFA configuration, then transfer to customer just like any other AR lower. I sent an email to Arms Unlimited telling them that these aren't NFA. Haven't received a response. |
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Quoted: One of the dealers I'm aware of used to zip tie a barreled upper on for the purpose of transfer. Just bring a 5.56mm 14.5" upper and assemble it before starting the F4 process. That way your local FFL/SOT is correctly certifying the transfer form. |
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Quoted: This is "a way" to handle the transfer locally (from your FFL/SOT to you). Just bring a 5.56mm 14.5" upper and assemble it before starting the F4 process. That way your local FFL/SOT is correctly certifying the transfer form. Yet that's not what the dealer received. If the Form 3 says SBR, it must be an SBR. AU is transferring an AR lower as if its an SBR. It's not. If the dealer receives an AR lower, zip ties a barreled upper of less than 16"........he's making a new NFA firearm, not transferring an existing one. The Form 3 transfers a specific SBR, with a specific barrel length. When ATF goes to check if the new Form 4 matches their records what do you think will happen? |
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Quoted: Yet that's not what the dealer received. Quoted: Yet that's not what the dealer received. Not his fault though. He's signed nothing, at this point. If the Form 3 says SBR, it must be an SBR.  AU is transferring an AR lower as if its an SBR. It's not. If the dealer receives an AR lower, zip ties a barreled upper of less than 16"........he's making a new NFA firearm, Anyone can possess an SBR with approved registration, and he's already on record as having it in his inventory. not transferring an existing one. The purchaser gets his upper back. Everyone is happy. The Form 3 transfers a specific SBR, with a specific barrel length. When ATF goes to check if the new Form 4 matches their records what do you think will happen? I think they'll approve the F4 transfer. |
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Quoted: True. Not his fault though. He's signed nothing, at this point. Quoted: Quoted: Yet that's not what the dealer received. Not his fault though. He's signed nothing, at this point. The dealer is required to record what he received. If I record an AR lower as an NFA firearm I am in violation of Federal law. Wouldn't you agree? If the Form 3 says SBR, it must be an SBR. If the Form 3 for an AR lower says its an SBR, the Form 3 is wrong, the transferor is in violation for an erroneous Form 3 and I'm not going to commit another violation by lying on the Form 4. AU is transferring an AR lower as if its an SBR. It's not. If you had asked what vendor did it, I would have said "it's Arms Unlimited". They have a history of playing fast and loose with NFA. Five or six years ago they were selling Canadian Colt SBR's that could not be transferred via Form 4 to a nonlicensee. If the dealer receives an AR lower, zip ties a barreled upper of less than 16"........he's making a new NFA firearm, Anyone can possess an SBR with approved registration, and he's already on record as having it in his inventory. No, it arrives as an AR lower, no matter what the Form 3 says. If the Form 3 said it was a Short Barreled Shotgun would this be a thread? not transferring an existing one. The purchaser gets his upper back. Everyone is happy. If I take an AR lower, add a bbl of less than 16" or less than 26" OAL I've manufactured an SBR. I'll have to Form 2 that to ATF. Won't they be surprised. The Form 3 transfers a specific SBR, with a specific barrel length. When ATF goes to check if the new Form 4 matches their records what do you think will happen? If they don't? Bottom line is this isn't an NFA firearm. As a Title I firearm I would be falsifying the Form 4 by pretending it is. I'm not doing that. |
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Quoted: I'm eagerly awaiting my IOI's response.  Likely it won't be via email because they don't like putting stuff in writing.Quoted: Quoted: So what are you and your customer going to do? Wait and see what ATF says? I'm eagerly awaiting my IOI's response. Likely it won't be via email because they don't like putting stuff in writing.Because they know how stupid it all is. There’s zero practical reason you couldn’t do SBR receivers the same they do machine guns but they wrote it poorly and they know it. They could have basically the same rules they have now while being 1000 times simpler but nobody that matters cares about fixing or streamlining the process. I’m still amazed they put eforms in place. |
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Quoted: AU won't cancel the order "as it's already being processed by the ATF". So what's the path of least resistance here? Is not accepting/returning an option? No idea. AU did respond back with a "but its an SBR lower", followed twenty minutes later by another email saying they would forward to "Mike he can help you". Exactly the response I thought I would get. I'm awaiting a clarification from my IOI. I'm sure she firing off emails to someone at NFA Div. |
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Quoted: The path of least resistance is to buy a 6933 upper from AU and ask them to install the upper prior to shipping. I'm assuming these came from Colt as factory SBRs and had some sort of upper on them (probably the very same 6933 ones, and they were factory LE6933 SBRs), so they could just sell them as they received them then. This feels like them trying to cash in by parting out the uppers and lowers separately and still make money selling the lowers as factory SBRs to people who want to build them out. It'd be hilarious if they got around this by taking a super cheap stripped upper with nothing but a super cheap barrel screwed on and selling the SBR lower with that pinned on. Essentially the bare minimum to maintain rifle status until transferred to the end user and then offer to "buy back" that upper or something. Kind of like how some foreign companies cycle parts around to make import points and their guns into the US. 
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Quoted: I'm assuming these came from Colt as factory SBRs and had some sort of upper on them (probably the very same 6933 ones, and they were factory LE6933 SBRs), so they could just sell them as they received them then. This feels like them trying to cash in by parting out the uppers and lowers separately and still make money selling the lowers as factory SBRs to people who want to build them out. It'd be hilarious if they got around this by taking a super cheap stripped upper with nothing but a super cheap barrel screwed on and selling the SBR lower with that pinned on. Essentially the bare minimum to maintain rifle status until transferred to the end user and then offer to "buy back" that upper or something. Kind of like how some foreign companies cycle parts around to make import points and their guns into the US. Yes, iirc they were 6933s that were parted out. I sold the lower from a factory LMT MRP SBR many years ago. I had already sold the upper separately. So I popped another short upper on it, shipped it to the guy, and he shipped my upper back to me, then used his own upper. |
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Quoted: Yes, iirc they were 6933s that were parted out. I sold the lower from a factory LMT MRP SBR many years ago. I had already sold the upper separately. So I popped another short upper on it, shipped it to the guy, and he shipped my upper back to me, then used his own upper. I went a similar route. I like the monolithic uppers and had bought 6943s and put the uppers on my MG receivers. It was cheaper at the time (and more available) to just buy the whole Colt registered SBR. I put other uppers on the Colt lowers to keep them as SBRs. |
 As the great Paul Harvey would say "Now, for the rest of the story..." I contacted my ATF Industry Operations Investigator who has always been very helpful. I've redacted her name and email address. TL/DR version: OP will get this on a Form 4 and ATF creates another "well technically" moment for a judge or defense attorney to pounce on. From: Tom Hart Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 10:04 AM To: Subject: [EXTERNAL] Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 I have a customer that wishes to purchase this Colt AR lower receiver: https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-M4-Carbine-Short-Barrel-Rifle-Lower-Receiver-p/556lr-sbr.htm The description says “This item is a serialized part, considered a firearm, factory registered as a short barrel rifle and requires transfer through a FFL/SOT”. It is my understanding that a firearm frame or receiver cannot be an SBR because it has no barrel, not meeting the definition of SBR in federal law. It would undoubtedly be accompanied by a Form 3. I assume since its not actually an NFA firearm, the seller needs to be notified that a Form 3 is not required. I would transfer to buyer as a Title I firearm. Is there an IOI in Nevada that can contact seller and tell them an AR lower is not an NFA Short Barreled Rifle? ------------------------------------------------------ From: Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 4:07 PM To: Tom Hart Subject: RE: Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 Typically a receiver is just a firearm, but it appears that they did register this as a NFA firearm, therefore, the NFA paperwork would need to be completed. Industry Operations Investigator Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives Dallas Field Division, --------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Hart Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 4:29 PM To: Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 How can it be an NFA firearm? It does not meet the definition of SBR in ATF regs. ATF has long held that an SBR, when not configured as an SBR, is not an SBR. Example: Replacing an 11.5” barrel with a 16” barrel, and the OAL at more than 26”……that’s a Title I rifle. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/rifle-firearm-subject-nfa “….a rifle is subject to the NFA only if the rifle has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length…” § 478.11 Meaning of terms. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-478/subpart-B/section-478.11 Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches. As well as ATF Ruling 2011-4 https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download If I receive that AR lower receiver, I have to log into my bound book what type of firearm I actually receive…..which is a receiver. It does not have a barrel or shoulder stock. I assume the Form 3 from the transferor will show a barrel length. If I were to submit a Form 4 showing no barrel length I have no doubt it would be denied. Tom Hart ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 8:56 PM To: Tom Hart Subject: RE: Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 I’ll look further into this one for you. Industry Operations Investigator Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives Dallas Field Division, ----------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Hart Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 12:10 PM To: Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 Any update? Tom Hart -------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 3:27 PM To: Tom Hart Subject: RE: Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 It is a registered NFA firearm. It technically should be sold in its original SBR configuration, but it appears that they are selling it only as the receiver. Since it is a registered firearm though, it has to stay registered and be transferred on the Form 3 or 4. The current person who holds the registration can elect to remove it from the NFA registration, but they would have to be the ones to go through the process of removing it with the NFA Branch. Industry Operations Investigator Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives Dallas Field Division, --------------------------------- From: Tom Hart Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 3:43 PM To: Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 So…….I’m expected to file a false Form 4 to transfer to the buyer? Because the incoming form 3 will have a barrel length and caliber listed on it. If my subsequent form 4 doesn’t match what’s in the registry it will be denied. Further I would be falsifying the Form 4 by stating I’m transferring a Short Barreled Rifle when I definitely am not. I understand that this is/was registered as an NFA firearm, but it NOT currently an NFA firearm and will not be what the Form 3 says it is. I’m sorry to be a pain, but this seems to be exactly the same as if I recorded an AR lower receiver as a “Long Gun” on the Form 4473. It isn’t, even if it was previously a rifle. That’s my concern. To be clear: I’m supposed to file a Form 4 on an SBR, that isn’t an SBR and lie about the caliber and barrel length? If I file a Form 4 showing no caliber and no barrel length, NFA div will deny it because the receiver does not meet the definition of SBR, correct? --------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 3:54 PM To: Tom Hart Subject: RE: Transferring a firearm thats not an NFA firearm, yet has a Form 3 That’s true that it’s not on the same configuration as on the original paperwork, but you’ll complete the form as to what is currently on the paperwork now. I know it’s confusing, but you’re technically not transferring a receiver, but the whole SBR that should have been in it’s original configuration. It’s not a falsification, it’s just that it is an SBR without being a SBR. That is why we would like to have people keep it in the same configuration or unregister it because it does get confusing. So, you’ll just have to treat it as a SBR and file the paperwork with what is currently listed on the NFA form. The person who ultimately receives it will have the option of converting it back to the SBR or go through the process of having it unregistered as a NFA firearm to be truly just a receiver. Industry Operations Investigator Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives Dallas Field Division, |
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Quoted: http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2009/0903/360_harvey_0301.jpg As the great Paul Harvey would say "Now, for the rest of the story..." I contacted my ATF Industry Operations Investigator who has always been very helpful. I've redacted her name and email address. TL/DR version: OP will get this on a Form 4 and ATF creates another "well technically" moment for a judge or defense attorney to pounce on. Wow, just wow. |
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Quoted: http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2009/0903/360_harvey_0301.jpg As the great Paul Harvey would say "Now, for the rest of the story..." I contacted my ATF Industry Operations Investigator who has always been very helpful. I've redacted her name and email address. TL/DR version: OP will get this on a Form 4 and ATF creates another "well technically" moment for a judge or defense attorney to pounce on. Complete nonsense from the ATF… |
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Quoted: What's funny to me is that it gives an opportunity for the dealers that got shut down doing this exact things means to go after ATF. If SBR lowers/receivers are a thing it would be a huge market. If you take ATF to court over this, they'll simply agree that AR lowers cannot be transferred as SBRs. They were technically correct when they shut this down the first time. So currently, per ATF, there are "extra" options, assuming OP's FFL receives the lower "as an SBR". Option 1 - Transfer on F4 as an SBR with no upper attached. (I wouldn't do this, since it involves falsely certifying the F4) Option 2 - Transfer on F4 as an SBR with [matching length & caliber] upper attached. (I would do this, if the customer wants a registered SBR without additional engraving). Option 3 - Transfer as Title I receiver, and later notify ATF that the firearm has been rendered a Title I firearm via a letter to NFA Branch. (Also fine, but customer may not like it.) This would make it "just like any other complete lower" and the customer can submit F1 if they wish. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What's The Story Here? (Page 1 of 2)
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