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I say make it take g17 mags and get it out already. I guess im one of the different people out there, i dont care what mags it takes, i just want one. Yes i have a g19 and about 30 mags for it, 20 of which are brand new in the wrap, but i could care less if they work with this gun or not. I dont buy more ar15s because i have a few mags for them, i buy them cause each is different and has a different feel and use. Saying you wont buy this gun because you will have to spend another 22 dollars on a glock mag is, to me, dumb. I buy great guns because they are great, not because of what mags they take. I mean if you gona make it take g19 mags, why not make it take sub compact mags? im sure there are lots of people out there who own sub compact glocks. . . Ill buy it, i dont care if it takes 15 rounders, or 17 rounders. . . im putting 33 rounders in it anyways 
{at I have 2 brand new factory 33 round mags and I don't even own a 9mm Glock yet. I'm wondering if I should get some more or just wait things out. You are asking these guys if you should by more stuff?  I think I know the answer. 
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I DON'T want MSAR employees to respond to this first part but for the rest of you guys...
Do gun manufacturers typically peruse sites like this and respond to questions this quick? I am new to this board and by day 'play' physician where I NEVER get the drug companies or insurance companies to respond or seem to ever know our clinic exists. MSAR did not pay me for saying this I assure you (although I take donations guys) but for being new to this 'hobby' I am impressed. Not to get too off topic but are there other firearm companies that have similar customer outreach / support? I would like to look into them too (although prob STG for me). That said... MSAR, when is the release date for the E4? RatWorx I thought were expecting it next month(?) yet you state up to 5 months and released with the carbine?! Please be fair and 'real' with your time frame. I don't mind a longer firm date wait over feeling 'strung along'. QUESTION: Is the E4 a slightly longer rifle than the stg? It appears so in pics. Comment: Please loose the 'textured' stock on the E4. I feel it cheapens the look of the piece IMO. THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME READING AND RESPONDING. Bill (WhiteWater) C. |
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Quoted: ... Do gun manufacturers typically peruse sites like this and respond to questions this quick? ... Most don't, but some do. It seems to be far more common here than on any other general (i.e., not single-brand-specific) gun board I've seen, FWIW.  And WELCOME to the site –– it's a great resource and a fun place to hang out. |
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The E4 is a stock for the STG-556. The dimensions are the same. We should have it fairly soon. It will be shipping later than next week but within the next few months we hope to have the E4 available. We have three engineers working on the E4, the MCS carbine, and gun number 3. We cannot promise a date for an upcoming firearm because we will not sell it until we get it right. Try to be patient, the guys are working on these projects as fast as possible.
Dave Robertson MSAR |
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I say make it take g17 mags and get it out already. I guess im one of the different people out there, i dont care what mags it takes, i just want one. Yes i have a g19 and about 30 mags for it, 20 of which are brand new in the wrap, but i could care less if they work with this gun or not. I dont buy more ar15s because i have a few mags for them, i buy them cause each is different and has a different feel and use. Saying you wont buy this gun because you will have to spend another 22 dollars on a glock mag is, to me, dumb. I buy great guns because they are great, not because of what mags they take. I mean if you gona make it take g19 mags, why not make it take sub compact mags? im sure there are lots of people out there who own sub compact glocks. . . Ill buy it, i dont care if it takes 15 rounders, or 17 rounders. . . im putting 33 rounders in it anyways
Pat I have 2 brand new factory 33 round mags and I don't even own a 9mm Glock yet. I'm wondering if I should get some more or just wait things out. I like the way you think. . ive got 4 33 rounders sitting there, and the only glock i own is a 10mm. Pat |
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MSAR, when is the release date for the E4? RatWorx I thought were expecting it next month(?) yet you state up to 5 months and released with the carbine?! Please be fair and 'real' with your time frame. I don't mind a longer firm date wait over feeling 'strung along'. Yeah, i said that wrong, the E4, like dave said will be very soon, Carbine later......I meant in five months time you will have at least two choices. They will not be released at the same time...sorry for the mix up. |
| Who cares if it takes a 15 round mag or not. I don't own any 17 rounders, but will if that's what it takes. I just want this thing out and into the market. That way we get a great 9mm carbine, and MSAR can make a buck for their hard work. I'm ready to buy one now. |
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Any word if the 9mm version will be able to safely fire +P+ rounds? I can't imagine any rifle not handling +P+. That's about all I would use it for. Whoa, hold up there chief- *never* try to shoot +P+ in a carbine unless you know it can handle it. Pistol that shoot 9mm parabellum are almost always locking breech while most 9mm carbines are simple blowback. The additional thrust form a +P+ can cause premature bolt opening on a blowback and can cause ruptured cases and the like. Uzis can handle +P+, but I know that Colt 9mm carbines are specifically *not* supposed to shoot it as the bolt is too light to keep the breech closed ong enough for the pressure to drop. |
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COLT 9mm SMGs CANNOT handle +P9mm?!! Really!!!
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Any word if the 9mm version will be able to safely fire +P+ rounds? I can't imagine any rifle not handling +P+. That's about all I would use it for. Whoa, hold up there chief- *never* try to shoot +P+ in a carbine unless you know it can handle it. Pistol that shoot 9mm parabellum are almost always locking breech while most 9mm carbines are simple blowback. The additional thrust form a +P+ can cause premature bolt opening on a blowback and can cause ruptured cases and the like. Uzis can handle +P+, but I know that Colt 9mm carbines are specifically *not* supposed to shoot it as the bolt is too light to keep the breech closed ong enough for the pressure to drop. |
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COLT 9mm SMGs CANNOT handle +P9mm?!! Really!!! Quoted:
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Any word if the 9mm version will be able to safely fire +P+ rounds? I can't imagine any rifle not handling +P+. That's about all I would use it for. Whoa, hold up there chief- *never* try to shoot +P+ in a carbine unless you know it can handle it. Pistol that shoot 9mm parabellum are almost always locking breech while most 9mm carbines are simple blowback. The additional thrust form a +P+ can cause premature bolt opening on a blowback and can cause ruptured cases and the like. Uzis can handle +P+, but I know that Colt 9mm carbines are specifically *not* supposed to shoot it as the bolt is too light to keep the breech closed ong enough for the pressure to drop. Never heard that before. Have shot several thousand rounds of Hirtenberger (very hot) through a Colt SMG, and alway use Hirtenberger to break in MP5's and clones. Most HK's and copies I have used will not cycle with standard 9mm until atleast 500 hot rounds have been sent through it to loosen it up. I belive you, just never knew it. That being said I will keep an eye out for MSAR's +P+ compatibility. Don't think I want a defense gun that I have to shoot target loads through. When out, my Glock gets Triton +P's. When home, it get's Glaser Safety Slugs. I would never shoot Hirtenberger through any sort of pistol. but it sure makes a an MP5 sing.
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I know that Colt 9mm carbines are specifically *not* supposed to shoot it as the bolt is too light to keep the breech closed ong enough for the pressure to drop.
Some body forgot to tell my Colt 9mm this. It says right on the side, "9mm NATO". It has safely digested loads that I would be very afraid to shoot in my SIG. |
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MSAR, 2 Questions: 1. If I own a Gen 4 STG 556, can you, and for how much APPROXIMATE can I convert it to accept the AR15 mags as the new E4 will? 2. Are you still aiming for a $1000 price point for the new carbine? Thanks! Im not sure we can convert it for you. If by convert you mean put the new E4 stock on it, yes we can do that once it comes out. Yes we are still aiming for $1000 for the railed carbine. |
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Memo to all MSAR engineers, staff, and employees.
With the current political climate and great need for getting our rifles into the hands of consumers the following action will be taken: All days off, vacation days, personal days, sick days, smoke breaks, bathroom breaks, etc., will be cancelled till further notice. The only excused absence is death, it must be your own, and a death certificate must be provided accordingly. Thank you for your cooperation with this matter. NOW GET BACK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!
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Last Steyr AUG-P in 9mm that I saw on gunbroker went for....are you ready for this?
$15,000.00 WOW. The Steyr AUG-P's are very rare in this country and the MCS is a huge leap in terms of the 70's AUG-P design so when you consider it will go for around $1K MSRP (who knows what street price will be down to after the first year) you're pretty much getting the deal of the century (provided they are good to go in terms of function which they should be). |
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It's probably the best concept in terms of defensive firearms for home-defense in situations where folks are concerned about over-penetration.
Obviously 5.56NATO and .223 Remington is an excellent bullet and can serve very well in a close quarters fight, but I fully believe that while excellent a rifle caliber isn't always going to fit every bill for every user. Based on interior spaces and locations of family members a pistol caliber may very well be the best choice for home defense. The long standing problem though is that prior to now the folks have been stuck with the option of either a short pistol they can control strongly with only one hand and that has to be extended away from the body at times or an "assault pistol" that can not be shouldered or a pistol carbine that is far too long thanks to the National Firearms Act and requires an SBR, which isn't always possible or ideal for folks. So civilians have been left at a disadvantage for a long time. The PS90 is a great firearm, but the 5.7x28mm round is still very controversial and frankly expensive making it hard for some folks to afford to train to the level of proficiency that they would like to obtain. So now we'll have at long last a solution in the form of the intelligent bullpup design. We get our legal 16" barrel and the ability to shoulder the rifle while we maintain an overall length of 27" (if it mirrors the length of the STG-556). The amazing thing is that MSAR has gone even further though. They didn't just sit back and do a clone of the AUG-P they tossed out the rule book and burned the box down coming up with bottom ejection for this pistol caliber carbine. Wow. As a side benefit it will also provide a pathway to many folks into the bullpup world because of its affordability. That's good for all bullpups, because if a person finds success with one they are sure to look at others and that's great, because I remember a time when bullpups were just to sci-fi and too "Buck Rogers" to be taken seriously by a lot of folks in this country. Now that is starting to change and this firearm will really expand the Brotherhood of the Bullpup further. I can't wait to even see it let alone fire it. 
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MSAR Comrades,
2 price questions: 1. What would be the APPROXIMATE price you would charge for swapping an E4 stock onto a Gen4 556 as you noted earlier? I won't hold you too it, promise. Just ballpark. 2. Why, or better yet, HOW can you make a 9mm Carbine out of an STG556 design new for around $1000 yet the regular .223 versions are $2000 and higher with the E4? What specific and significant change(s) MUST be lost with the carbine to account for it. Or is this thing a completely new design not similar to the STG? Thanks for your response. |
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I don't work for MSAR and I haven't seen the new MCS, but from what I've been told it has downward ejection so I don't know how modular it is going to be with the STG-556.
The STG-556E4 is a different story. It's basically an improved stock design that takes AR mags so it's pretty much the exact same stocks they have now on steroids. |
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To answer the second part of your question since I have been doing most of the design work on the MCS, it is designed to be produced. The bolt is simpler, the bolt carrier is simpler, there are less parts, the trunnion/barrel interface is simpler...etc. Basically we have been able to severely cut down on machine time and material costs with the MCS becasue we dont have the power of the .223 or anything that comes with it (locking bolt, gas piston return system, etc) Everything has been designed with simplicity in mind because that makes things more reliable and it will cost less to make. The bolt for example will be made 4x as quick as the 5.56 bolt which drastically cuts down on our price to make each bolt. You wont bust your fingers trying to take down the gun either with a completely new receiver lock that is simpler and easier to use. the bolt assembly will come apart in two seconds and we are reusing as many parts as possible from the STG (hammer pack, front grip etc) All of this adds up to less time producing the parts, and less time assembling them and like everybody says: time is money
You will loose nothing that has made the STG so popular. The natural balance will still be there, the quality will still be there and it will still require no tools to disassemble and we have actually improved the basic STG design thanks mostly to you guys' input. It will not require a different bolt for lefties (downward ejection) and is now completely ambidextrous (well there is still one control only on the left side of the gun: the bolt hold open/release but it is just as natural to hit from a lefty or a righty's point of view). It is the absolute minimum OAL without a tax stamp and yup, you guessed it, even lighter. |
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To answer the second part of your question since I have been doing most of the design work on the MCS, it is designed to be produced. The bolt is simpler, the bolt carrier is simpler, there are less parts, the trunnion/barrel interface is simpler...etc. Basically we have been able to severely cut down on machine time and material costs with the MCS because we don't have the power of the .223 or anything that comes with it (locking bolt, gas piston return system, etc) Everything has been designed with simplicity in mind because that makes things more reliable and it will cost less to make. The bolt for example will be made 4x as quick as the 5.56 bolt which drastically cuts down on our price to make each bolt. You wont bust your fingers trying to take down the gun either with a completely new receiver lock that is simpler and easier to use. the bolt assembly will come apart in two seconds and we are reusing as many parts as possible from the STG (hammer pack, front grip etc) All of this adds up to less time producing the parts, and less time assembling them and like everybody says: time is money
You will loose nothing that has made the STG so popular. The natural balance will still be there, the quality will still be there and it will still require no tools to disassemble and we have actually improved the basic STG design thanks mostly to you guys' input. It will not require a different bolt for lefties (downward ejection) and is now completely ambidextrous (well there is still one control only on the left side of the gun: the bolt hold open/release but it is just as natural to hit from a lefty or a righty's point of view). It is the absolute minimum OAL without a tax stamp and yup, you guessed it, even lighter. F'n awesome. Any plans to sell with a barrel/bolt combo package in different calibers say a 9mm/.45acp combo(9mil for plinking .45 for smiting ). Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread.
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To answer the second part of your question since I have been doing most of the design work on the MCS, it is designed to be produced. The bolt is simpler, the bolt carrier is simpler, there are less parts, the trunnion/barrel interface is simpler...etc. Basically we have been able to severely cut down on machine time and material costs with the MCS becasue we dont have the power of the .223 or anything that comes with it (locking bolt, gas piston return system, etc) Everything has been designed with simplicity in mind because that makes things more reliable and it will cost less to make. The bolt for example will be made 4x as quick as the 5.56 bolt which drastically cuts down on our price to make each bolt. You wont bust your fingers trying to take down the gun either with a completely new receiver lock that is simpler and easier to use. the bolt assembly will come apart in two seconds and we are reusing as many parts as possible from the STG (hammer pack, front grip etc) All of this adds up to less time producing the parts, and less time assembling them and like everybody says: time is money
You will loose nothing that has made the STG so popular. The natural balance will still be there, the quality will still be there and it will still require no tools to disassemble and we have actually improved the basic STG design thanks mostly to you guys' input. It will not require a different bolt for lefties (downward ejection) and is now completely ambidextrous (well there is still one control only on the left side of the gun: the bolt hold open/release but it is just as natural to hit from a lefty or a righty's point of view). It is the absolute minimum OAL without a tax stamp and yup, you guessed it, even lighter. 
I can't wait!!! |
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It's probably the best concept in terms of defensive firearms for home-defense in situations where folks are concerned about over-penetration. Obviously 5.56NATO and .223 Remington is an excellent bullet and can serve very well in a close quarters fight, but I fully believe that while excellent a rifle caliber isn't always going to fit every bill for every user. Based on interior spaces and locations of family members a pistol caliber may very well be the best choice for home defense. The long standing problem though is that prior to now the folks have been stuck with the option of either a short pistol they can control strongly with only one hand and that has to be extended away from the body at times or an "assault pistol" that can not be shouldered or a pistol carbine that is far too long thanks to the National Firearms Act and requires an SBR, which isn't always possible or ideal for folks. So civilians have been left at a disadvantage for a long time. The PS90 is a great firearm, but the 5.7x28mm round is still very controversial and frankly expensive making it hard for some folks to afford to train to the level of proficiency that they would like to obtain. Actually for Home Defense 9mm is far from best. It tends to over penetrate more so than even 5.56. The 5.7x28 round is PERFECT for HD out of a PS90 as the Civil available rounds (ss195lf/ss197sr) stay in soft tissue and penetrate between 8-11" with the SS197sr V-MAX being between 7-9" but creating a HUGE temp cavity. Also they don't penetrate through as many walls as 9mm do. Price-wise 5.7x28 ammo has only gone up a few dollars, vs 9mm that has doubled in the past 2 years. The steyr design/body is perfection to me, just as a Glock 19 frame is, so putting both together is a win in my book. If you want to use the 9mm out of a rifle for HD, I suggest getting frangible or some well-expanding JHP's as they will not go through your walls and into your neighbor's walls as much. I will be getting the 9mm MSAR because I have tons of 9mm and even though I won't grab in HD situation, it will serve me well on the range and in possible SHTF situation and mag swap ability from my Glock. |
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It's probably the best concept in terms of defensive firearms for home-defense in situations where folks are concerned about over-penetration. Obviously 5.56NATO and .223 Remington is an excellent bullet and can serve very well in a close quarters fight, but I fully believe that while excellent a rifle caliber isn't always going to fit every bill for every user. Based on interior spaces and locations of family members a pistol caliber may very well be the best choice for home defense. The long standing problem though is that prior to now the folks have been stuck with the option of either a short pistol they can control strongly with only one hand and that has to be extended away from the body at times or an "assault pistol" that can not be shouldered or a pistol carbine that is far too long thanks to the National Firearms Act and requires an SBR, which isn't always possible or ideal for folks. So civilians have been left at a disadvantage for a long time. The PS90 is a great firearm, but the 5.7x28mm round is still very controversial and frankly expensive making it hard for some folks to afford to train to the level of proficiency that they would like to obtain. Actually for Home Defense 9mm is far from best. It tends to over penetrate more so than even 5.56. The 5.7x28 round is PERFECT for HD out of a PS90 as the Civil available rounds (ss195lf/ss197sr) stay in soft tissue and penetrate between 8-11" with the SS197sr V-MAX being between 7-9" but creating a HUGE temp cavity. Also they don't penetrate through as many walls as 9mm do. Price-wise 5.7x28 ammo has only gone up a few dollars, vs 9mm that has doubled in the past 2 years. The steyr design/body is perfection to me, just as a Glock 19 frame is, so putting both together is a win in my book. If you want to use the 9mm out of a rifle for HD, I suggest getting frangible or some well-expanding JHP's as they will not go through your walls and into your neighbor's walls as much. I will be getting the 9mm MSAR because I have tons of 9mm and even though I won't grab in HD situation, it will serve me well on the range and in possible SHTF situation and mag swap ability from my Glock. I was under the impression that other pistol calibers would be available like .40S&W. |
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To answer the second part of your question since I have been doing most of the design work on the MCS, it is designed to be produced. The bolt is simpler, the bolt carrier is simpler, there are less parts, the trunnion/barrel interface is simpler...etc. Basically we have been able to severely cut down on machine time and material costs with the MCS becasue we dont have the power of the .223 or anything that comes with it (locking bolt, gas piston return system, etc) Everything has been designed with simplicity in mind because that makes things more reliable and it will cost less to make. The bolt for example will be made 4x as quick as the 5.56 bolt which drastically cuts down on our price to make each bolt. You wont bust your fingers trying to take down the gun either with a completely new receiver lock that is simpler and easier to use. the bolt assembly will come apart in two seconds and we are reusing as many parts as possible from the STG (hammer pack, front grip etc) All of this adds up to less time producing the parts, and less time assembling them and like everybody says: time is money
You will loose nothing that has made the STG so popular. The natural balance will still be there, the quality will still be there and it will still require no tools to disassemble and we have actually improved the basic STG design thanks mostly to you guys' input. It will not require a different bolt for lefties (downward ejection) and is now completely ambidextrous (well there is still one control only on the left side of the gun: the bolt hold open/release but it is just as natural to hit from a lefty or a righty's point of view). It is the absolute minimum OAL without a tax stamp and yup, you guessed it, even lighter. Did they/we/you decide if it will accept Glock 19 15-round mags or not? |
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It's probably the best concept in terms of defensive firearms for home-defense in situations where folks are concerned about over-penetration. Obviously 5.56NATO and .223 Remington is an excellent bullet and can serve very well in a close quarters fight, but I fully believe that while excellent a rifle caliber isn't always going to fit every bill for every user. Based on interior spaces and locations of family members a pistol caliber may very well be the best choice for home defense. The long standing problem though is that prior to now the folks have been stuck with the option of either a short pistol they can control strongly with only one hand and that has to be extended away from the body at times or an "assault pistol" that can not be shouldered or a pistol carbine that is far too long thanks to the National Firearms Act and requires an SBR, which isn't always possible or ideal for folks. So civilians have been left at a disadvantage for a long time. The PS90 is a great firearm, but the 5.7x28mm round is still very controversial and frankly expensive making it hard for some folks to afford to train to the level of proficiency that they would like to obtain. Actually for Home Defense 9mm is far from best. It tends to over penetrate more so than even 5.56. The 5.7x28 round is PERFECT for HD out of a PS90 as the Civil available rounds (ss195lf/ss197sr) stay in soft tissue and penetrate between 8-11" with the SS197sr V-MAX being between 7-9" but creating a HUGE temp cavity. Also they don't penetrate through as many walls as 9mm do. Price-wise 5.7x28 ammo has only gone up a few dollars, vs 9mm that has doubled in the past 2 years. The steyr design/body is perfection to me, just as a Glock 19 frame is, so putting both together is a win in my book. If you want to use the 9mm out of a rifle for HD, I suggest getting frangible or some well-expanding JHP's as they will not go through your walls and into your neighbor's walls as much. I will be getting the 9mm MSAR because I have tons of 9mm and even though I won't grab in HD situation, it will serve me well on the range and in possible SHTF situation and mag swap ability from my Glock. I was under the impression that other pistol calibers would be available like .40S&W. You are correct. |
| I am literally checking this thread and the bullpup section of ARFCOM each and every day hoping that the MSAR MCS has been released. In the meantime, I'll keep eyeing other guns I'd like to have such as a PS90 or MP5 but in the end, I'll be biting my nails hoping that the MCS comes out soon so that I can snatch one up. |
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I am certain the MCS will be released right around August 1st, 2009. It will not be before that. The first batch will be in 45 ACP. 4.5 pounds. Downward ejection. Glock mags, and our own 30 round translucent stick mags. That little carbine is bad ass. Hmmmmmmm... I don't believe that GLOCK makes anything larger than 15 round .45 ACP magazines. So much for stocking up on MCS mags ahead of time. 
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OOOoooo, did someone say 30 round translucent glock mags for the MCS? That's just dead sexy.
So .45 ACP, bullpup OAL of 27"? Downward ejection will accept glock mags and will retail around $1K or less? 4.5 lbs...that's nuts. That's like almost half the weight of the STG-556. |
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I just learned that Scherer makes a 25 round .45 ACP GLOCK magazine but I'd definitely prefer to have a 30 round mag if available. Guess I'll be waiting for the MSAR mags. Stay AWAY from Scherer Mags, they SUCK! but these arn't so bad, and you get 30 rounds of .45 out of the deal: TDI / MAGPUL .45 Glock Mags I've got two of them. They function pretty well, but I havent really put them through their paces. Seem to work great with FMJ ball ammo, but the HPs tend to hang up a little. I dont have the KRISS, but they work well enough in the G21. |
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I am certain the MCS will be released right around August 1st, 2009. It will not be before that. The first batch will be in 45 ACP. 4.5 pounds. Downward ejection. Glock mags, and our own 30 round translucent stick mags. That little carbine is bad ass. Will there be caliber conversions, or would one have to buy a new rifle for each pistol caliber? |
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