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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Hornady OAL issue fixed. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/13/2011 3:28:56 PM EDT
Power Point, color presentation.
Taking a .005 shim Hornady uses to shim LNL bushings, I cut into 4 pieces using tin snips. 
Then dropped a drop of Locktite in 4 places under shim pieces to secure, let dry for a minute or so. 
If wondering how to remove copper spent primer tube without bending or collapsing. Remove both set screws from each side of ram. Lift, tap sub-plate up gently and push sub-plate up using spent primer tube. Place shell plate on ram and drop sub-plate down, while holding copper, spent primer tube with slight tug each time dropped until copper tube comes loose. Hornady makes a too for this. It's shipped with EZ-Ject update. Maybe even came with your new press. Dropping sub-plate on shell plate is quicker to my way of do'in things. Once tube is removed sub=plate is ready to come out and shim pieces be glued in place. If you don't have shims you can buy a cheap feeler gage set and cut as needed using the exact shim desired. I'm calling Hornaday Monday and advising of cure. Hopefully they will make drop in shims to in varying sizes to custom fit each press. Be sure and tap sub-plate back down and draw set screws into divots tightly and secure. If you don't you'll find out quickly that primer seating depth will be shallow. This by the way is why AP owners have resorted to the "dime" cure in the past. Tighten screws properly and you won't so much as need a pennies cure. 10, 121 grain Hornady HAP bullets using assorted brass. Here's oal results. 1.064 1.063 1.065 1.064 1.064 1.065 1.065 1.064 1.065 1.063 Have fun, Load safe ! |
| I do not have this press and do not fully understand how it operates. I see what I believe are two tapped holes that the set screws would thread into. Is this something Hornady could fix in the manufacturing process by securing the part that rocks with three setscrews at 120* or four setscrews at 90*, with a corresponding number of flats or countersinks on the mating part instead of two setscrews at 180*? |
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I do not have this press and do not fully understand how it operates. I see what I believe are two tapped holes that the set screws would thread into. Is this something Hornady could fix in the manufacturing process by securing the part that rocks with three setscrews at 120* or four setscrews at 90*, with a corresponding number of flats or countersinks on the mating part instead of two setscrews at 180*? Yes, Hornady could fix this with three or four set screws if..... Hornady redesigned sub-plate to accept additional set screws and redisigned how tight screws set into set points. Hornady, like Dillon, RCBS and Lee could fix all their problems in manufacturing process. But they don't. My guess, Hornady will fix this with an updated shim kit and it will need to be a shim kit. As press wears it will need larger shims to take slack from stress wear that will occur at set points on ram. At my side, new in an unopened box is an XL650 Dillon press. Out of the box it doesn't index as smooth as Hornady AP. Dillon's fix, instructions on how to cut part of a coil off. I brought this up to address your point. Not get into a blue vs red retarded kolor discussion. Fact of the matter is, every press requires some type of tuning. I'll be on phone with Hornady next week. Will post what I believe will be interesting updates. Have had in depth technical discussions with Hornady's tech person. He's the same Hornady employee that has trouble shot several press solutions for Hornady. He's committed to seeing oal issue to a successful conclusion. |
You have developed an inexpensive and easy fix to retrofit to the presses currently in use.
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I checked mine out and the sub plate sits down solid on the ram solid and the flat head socket countersunk bolt pulls it down tight when they are tightened so adding a shim would raise the sub plate off of the ram enough that it isn't 100% supported anymore and will probably cause more flex than the way it is now.
Not saying they all fit this tight but in my case I think having the sub plate down against the ram instead of a spacer shim is the best way to go but since I dont get any OAL variation I'm not that worried about it. My OAL checked at the ogive never varies over +/-.001" so that's good enough for me. |
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EWP if you've never had more of a deviation than .001, none of this applies to your press..
.007 is a number that comes up again and again and again with Hornady AP oal variations. Hornady rep openly admitted some owners aren't reporting this issue. If you'll notice on bottom of sub-plate, the dykum ring ? Dykum when applied and sub-plate tightened down with and without shims told the story. If shimmed to .006 I believe all the slop in my press would be gone My variation averaged .007 before fix. I'm loading on this press now with peace of mind, where before every pull of handle was worrisome with OAL variation. |
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1911Smith, I think I got the concept, but still need a little help understanding.  How do you know where to put the shims? Is it just where the dykum has NOT rubbed off? Basically trying to level the surface where the sub-plate meets the ram? How do I get the correct shims sizes? I am not sure where to start on how to get this, My OAL was off by .010, So should I start at .09? If I have the concept right. Wouldn't you be able to make a lapping tool to from ID do the OD of the ram, to level out the surface? Kind of like the lapping tool for ARs but in reverse? Just thinking that if your friend can make such a lapping tool, I would just send him my sub-plate to get lapped. Thanks again for the help. Just remember I'm a computer tech, and don't know much about metal works. |
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Nice job, thank you for tackling this.
Question. The reason you cut the shim is because it's too small to fit where it needs to go, right? So, in a perfect world, the ideal solution would be to get a shim that is the correct diameter so it could slide over the base plate in one piece? Or no? If so, is it possible to get a proper size shim that doesn't need to be clipped? Again, great work. |
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Same OAL issue with my old Pro-Jector with the only difference being that instead of FHCS screws through the subplate there are spiral pins. Might try and play with it.
Just ordered a LNL AP yesterday and I'm hoping that I have the same luck as EWP as far as tolerance. If not, i know what to do. Thanks 1911smith! |
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How do you know where to put the shims? Is it just where the dykum has NOT rubbed off? Basically trying to level the surface where the sub-plate meets the ram? I'd started to shim in two spots and Jason said, no. Shim in four spots, support and lift the entire plate. So that's how it was done and Jason was right. How do I get the correct shims sizes? I am not sure where to start on how to get this, My OAL was off by .010, So should I start at .09? I took into account .003 for bullet variation and subtracted from .007. (My variable number.) Leaving .004. Then used a .005 shim because that's what I had to work with. Hornady ships both .005 and .010 shims in each bushing kit. If cutting from feeler gage set I could have used parts off .004 gage. Set screw went in hard on left after drawing down right side first so I would say .005 is plenty. If I have the concept right. Wouldn't you be able to make a lapping tool to from ID do the OD of the ram, to level out the surface? Kind of like the lapping tool for ARs but in reverse? Just thinking that if your friend can make such a lapping tool, I would just send him my sub-plate to get lapped. Here's the problem, set screw holes are drilled at least .004 too high in ram or divots drilled at least .004 too low in sub=plate. Lapping top of ram will only make issue worse. Shims actually fill a gap left from inset ram holes and divots not being drilled at proper heights. With a .004 or .005 gap your sub-plate will "feel" secure by touch. Creating the "illusion" that problem is shell plate or dies. The proof and my light bulb moment when I knew this was the sub-plate rocking. Was the JB Weld guy. Sorry, went back to find your name so credit could be given where it was due. You'll have to help me out here. Although his diagnosis and remedy were a bit primitive. His results were positive. With considerable thought and conversations with Hornady and Perkins Custom LLC, aided with the help of Mr. Perkins. We came to same conclusion as Mr. JB Weld, but with a shim instead of a tube. btw: I'm suspect the JB will eventually deteriorate so this will be a cure for you as well. Thanks again for the help. Just remember I'm a computer tech, and don't know much about metal works.
When my computer has issues I know who to ask for help. |
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Nice job, thank you for tackling this. Question. The reason you cut the shim is because it's too small to fit where it needs to go, right? So, in a perfect world, the ideal solution would be to get a shim that is the correct diameter so it could slide over the base plate in one piece? Or no? If so, is it possible to get a proper size shim that doesn't need to be clipped? Again, great work. Correct, I cut the shim because it was too small in diameter. Hopefully, Hornady will step up to the plate and offer correct shims. |
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Nice job, thank you for tackling this. Question. The reason you cut the shim is because it's too small to fit where it needs to go, right? So, in a perfect world, the ideal solution would be to get a shim that is the correct diameter so it could slide over the base plate in one piece? Or no? If so, is it possible to get a proper size shim that doesn't need to be clipped? Again, great work. Correct, I cut the shim because it was too small in diameter. Hopefully, Hornady will step up to the plate and offer correct shims. What do you think the ideal dimensions of such a shim would be? (Inside DIA, outside DIA, thickness) |
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Nice job, thank you for tackling this. Question. The reason you cut the shim is because it's too small to fit where it needs to go, right? So, in a perfect world, the ideal solution would be to get a shim that is the correct diameter so it could slide over the base plate in one piece? Or no? If so, is it possible to get a proper size shim that doesn't need to be clipped? Again, great work. Correct, I cut the shim because it was too small in diameter. Hopefully, Hornady will step up to the plate and offer correct shims. What do you think the ideal dimensions of such a shim would be? (Inside DIA, outside DIA, thickness) I have your answer... So for the hell of it I pulled the subplate off one of my presses and low and behold there is a .010 shim already installed on it! You can see it sandwiched between the plate and ram if you look at it closely (without having to remove the plate first) The other press I have doesn't appear to have one. (haven't pulled that plate yet) Outside diameter is 2.000" Inside diameter is 1.630" So Hornady already makes shims for it. What we don't know is do they make different thickness shims? |
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Nice job, thank you for tackling this. Question. The reason you cut the shim is because it's too small to fit where it needs to go, right? So, in a perfect world, the ideal solution would be to get a shim that is the correct diameter so it could slide over the base plate in one piece? Or no? If so, is it possible to get a proper size shim that doesn't need to be clipped? Again, great work. Correct, I cut the shim because it was too small in diameter. Hopefully, Hornady will step up to the plate and offer correct shims. What do you think the ideal dimensions of such a shim would be? (Inside DIA, outside DIA, thickness) I have your answer... So for the hell of it I pulled the subplate off one of my presses and low and behold there is a .010 shim already installed on it! You can see it sandwiched between the plate and ram if you look at it closely (without having to remove the plate first) The other press I have doesn't appear to have one. (haven't pulled that plate yet) Outside diameter is 2.000" Inside diameter is 1.630" So Hornady already makes shims for it. What we don't know is do they make different thickness shims? That's interesting... |
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Yep, now I'm hot in the collar, high in the saddle, eyebrow up and ready to eat ass. I sure would like to see a picture of shim. Hey don't get pissed at me! you started this whole mess. lol If I knew how to post pics I would? care to show me how? Or I could text you the pic. Its on my I-phone. I took the sub plate off my other press and like I thought there was no shim. so.... press #174xx has shim, press# 245xx no shim. My thought is during assembly some needed shiming some didn't. (some did and didn't get one obviously) |
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yes I bought this one brand new from Grafs on 02/11/09 09, wow..... I'm gonna need to eat a bowl of happy thoughts before calling Hornady in morning. Thanks for sending the pictures. I'm thinking maybe this would be the time to offer your services to Hornady. Maybe they could set you up with a landline and computer, to troubleshoot the technical issues that their current folks can't seem to remember fixing! |
| No shim on mine either(serial # 197**), when I set the sub plate down on my ram the holes that the set screws go in are clearly a little high on the sub plate so when the screws go in they are forced to pull the plate down against the ram. I'm guessing due to manufacturing tolerances they are not all this way and the noticeable ones get the shim added at the factory so when the screws go in they pull down on the sub plate keeping it tight. |
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Just got off phone with Hornady tech dept.
The end result, without the details. Hornady doesn't list a part number for shim. Tech Support is looking into and sending out correct shim asap. Not going into details of conversation. I will say I directed them to this thread. If you get a technician on phone who says he's unclear of what your talking about when asking for sub-plate shim. If'in I were you. I'd direct them here to pictures at bottom of page 1. |
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The tech I talked to has been kept in a dark closet and fed jack shit. So, jack shit is what he knew. He didn't know that the AP had an oal issue and unaware of shim.
I asked where press was made because I was finding it hard to believe that tech support could work in the same building, much less same country as AP press is made. No more than he knew. He said the press is made in same building in Grand Island, Nebraska. He went on to say, that's nothin. Hornady releases new bullets and reloaders call here for load information. We then tell our customer that bullet doesn't exist only to be told. "That's funny because I'm sittin here with a box of them". We then ask our people here and they say, "O'yea. Guess we forgot to mention those to you guys." I always thought working in a place like Hornady would be fun. Not so. I've worked at a company or two where there's no communication and everyone divided by departments, levels of staff and by cubicles. I much prefer being covered in pig shit most of the time compared to a working environment like I'm experiencing Hornady to have. I need to find my bowl of happy thoughts again, cause I'm just gettin myself worked up again. So to answer your question, I dunno if they make shims in various sizes. Hornady's phone number is....308-382-1390. |
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Ch0wd3r, Question? Are you having the AOL issue? I saw where you stated you have 2 LNL, and was curious too see if the one with the shim has the issue. I did notice it shortly after I bought the press. I realized that the Lfcd made it worse so I rarely use that die anymore. It was only a few thousands so I never got to worked up about it. However my participation in this thread is mainly to help people reduce that variance to a minimum. I have not loaded many rounds on my second press so I can't really say yet. |
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A few years ago, my LnL AP had such large variations in OAL that I sent the press back to Hornady for readjustment.
Not sure whether they shimmed under the subplate. The next time I remove the subplate for some reason, I'll have to check. Now I'm wondering whether my LNL is still "off." Here are some things I've come to accept as normal for my LNL AP: -If I leave the first few stages empty, I usually get shorter OALs on the last few rounds loaded. Shorter by as much as 0.005"-0.007". Sometimes that's under my minimum OAL, so I have to rework a few rounds (usually an appointment with the bullet puller). -If I am careful to always have a case in the sizing station, it seems to reduce the OAL variation by a few 0.001". -Using all the same brand and condition of brass, e.g. Starline 10mm that I purchased new and have been careful to treat well, seems to really cut down on OAL variations. For example, last week I loaded some twice-fired Starline 10mm brass with Missouri Bullet Co. bullets, and they all came out within 0.001" either way. -When using mixed brass, I cannot afford to be that fussy about OALs. I'll accept +/- 0.005" from my target OAL, which I set at least 0.005" above minimum COAL so I can be fairly sure none of the rounds will be below minimum. Note that I am approaching all of this from the viewpoint of loading straight-wall pistol cartridges, as that's all I load on my LNL AP. Do I still have a problem? |
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A few years ago, my LnL AP had such large variations in OAL that I sent the press back to Hornady for readjustment. Not sure whether they shimmed under the subplate. The next time I remove the subplate for some reason, I'll have to check. Now I'm wondering whether my LNL is still "off." Here are some things I've come to accept as normal for my LNL AP: -If I leave the first few stages empty, I usually get shorter OALs on the last few rounds loaded. Shorter by as much as 0.005"-0.007". Sometimes that's under my minimum OAL, so I have to rework a few rounds (usually an appointment with the bullet puller). -If I am careful to always have a case in the sizing station, it seems to reduce the OAL variation by a few 0.001". -Using all the same brand and condition of brass, e.g. Starline 10mm that I purchased new and have been careful to treat well, seems to really cut down on OAL variations. For example, last week I loaded some twice-fired Starline 10mm brass with Missouri Bullet Co. bullets, and they all came out within 0.001" either way. -When using mixed brass, I cannot afford to be that fussy about OALs. I'll accept +/- 0.005" from my target OAL, which I set at least 0.005" above minimum COAL so I can be fairly sure none of the rounds will be below minimum. Note that I am approaching all of this from the viewpoint of loading straight-wall pistol cartridges, as that's all I load on my LNL AP. Do I still have a problem? Nope all progressive presses do this, it's not that the sub plate will move but the amount of force being applied is enough to flex any sub plate especially when using something like a Lee FCD. Every progressive I've used including RCBS & Dillon all do this, there is NO way to keep the sub plate from flexing on just one side if that's the only side being used but it does vary allot depending on what our doing. This is why if you want "perfect" OAL's then you should only drop powder and seat bullets on a progressive when loading ammo, if you choose to size and crimp with a separate die that adds allot of varying force to the sub plate then things are going to vary due to some cases crimping easier than others and some size easier than others, all these things cause the amount of force at each station to vary therefore OAL is going to vary, no way around it no matter what you add or do. If you do like to do ever step at once and want to cut down on variations then try to make sure that every station is filled and doing it's job and doing it the same on every round. |
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Variances you describe are unacceptable to me. There is absolutely no reason at all the red press should have more variance than it's blue counterpart, XL650.
I've left a message for Jodi Davies, Hornady's QA person and sent her this link. You guys have Hornady's phone number. 308-382-1390. Burn it up until your press is fixed. I'm happy with .003 variance. That's about as good as it gets. P.S. I'm running Lee's FCD. Once again the sub-plate can't flex, it rocks. |
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I can't make the subplate budge in the slightest, once I've tightened the side screws. Nor can I even begin to slip a piece of thin paper (0.003" thick) between the top edge of the ram and the bottom of the subplate. Not so sure there's any way I could shim anything, or that it's really necessary.
I get tiny variations in OAL when using dimensionally-consistent bullets (e.g. Hornady JHPs) and all same-brand brass which has been treated consistently. So I'm not sure there's anything to be gained in trying to chase down a few thousandths of OAL variation, which is seen only when loading with mixed brass. I as well find the idea of the subplate "flexing" incredible. It is a very thick, stiff piece of steel. I would be surprised if I had the strength to bend it measurably, even with the mechanical advantage of the press. |
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Quoted: At my side, new in an unopened box is an XL650 Dillon press. Out of the box it doesn't index as smooth as Hornady AP. Dillon's fix, instructions on how to cut part of a coil off. I brought this up to address your point. Not get into a blue vs red retarded kolor discussion. Fact of the matter is, every press requires some type of tuning. I looked into this issue on my XL650 and found an adjustment will cure the powder spillage issue during indexing. I wrote it up in this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/329662_.html. Quoted: Quoted: Do I still have a problem? Nope all progressive presses do this, it's not that the sub plate will move but the amount of force being applied is enough to flex any sub plate especially when using something like a Lee FCD. Every progressive I've used including RCBS & Dillon all do this, there is NO way to keep the sub plate from flexing on just one side if that's the only side being used but it does vary allot depending on what our doing. Proper adjustment of the center bolt on your shellplate (tighten down so shellplate won't tip but it still turns freely) should eliminate the shellplate tip, however, you still have the shellplate flexing EWP suggests above. To reduce that variation, most die makers suggest that die adjustment is most accurately done when all the other stations on your press have cases being processed at the same time. This means that after you adjust each die in order, you should go back to the first station and recheck each die's adjustment again. |
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With AP press you can tighten center bolt to max and still makes no difference to how shell-plate spins. This was an initial concern. To remedy this we were prepared zip a circle in bottom of shell plate to allow room for case retainer spring. Shimming .005 had no effect on spring and ease of index.
Hornady over builds everything. Sub plate and shell plate are way over built compared to any press. Look, all I can do is report results. Before shimming I had wild swings. Averaging .007. Remember and go back to snugging shell plate. Center bolt can be tightened to max with no effect on shell plate and we're talking straight wall pistol case oal variations. Not hard to size .300 Win Mag. I've got variations way, way down compared to before shim. Thanks for the piece on blue press tuning. It is slinging some powder. Have loaded 875 cartridges with it. Last night was 45acp with 4.0 grains Vihta Vouri N310. Indexing was rough enough to throw powder pretty high in case and I'm not a ram and jam kind a reloader. My cyclic rate is around 300 an hour. I'll be tickled if I can get XL650 to index as nice as AP press. It's hard to walk into the room without an overwhelming urge to hand crank both at same time 
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One more thought before you go there. Case head rides on sub plate. Hornady shell plate serves to simply move the brass along.
Ball bearings as seen in botttom of shell plate serve to secure shell plate at each station. Bottom line. Hornady shell plate doesn't see stress like a Dillon shell plate will. Therefore it doesn't "flex". |
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Proper adjustment of the center bolt on your shellplate (tighten down so shellplate won't tip but it still turns freely) should eliminate the shellplate tip, however, you still have the shellplate flexing EWP suggests above. To reduce that variation, most die makers suggest that die adjustment is most accurately done when all the other stations on your press have cases being processed at the same time. This means that after you adjust each die in order, you should go back to the first station and recheck each die's adjustment again. That's exactly the procedure I developed early in using my LnL AP. When I want to change bullet seating depth, for example, I do it with all other stations occupied - else I end up with a different than intended (usually shorter) OAL. |
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Never heard from Jodie Davies, in charge of Hornady QA this week. Didn't really expect too either after sending a link to this thread. Any discussion we would have is addressed here.
Here's what was waiting for me when I got home. 
Not sure whether the folks at Hornady have the time or interest to follow a thread like this. Thank You. You have graciously supplied everything that's been asked to remedy issue. Will install tonite and report 9mm oal results. |
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Just received my new LNL yesterday and will try to get it setup this weekend. First I may look to see if it has a shim already installed and if not I may contact Hornady for one anyway.
( 1911smith - is there a part # on that shim?) If I don't need it on the LNL I'll install it on my Pro-jector. 
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Hornady OAL issue fixed. (Page 1 of 2)
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