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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do you know how to optimize your reloading dies ? Die tuning, page two. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/5/2013 1:46:04 PM EDT
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We've got another crop of new guys. This forum cycles a crop, seems like every 4 months so we get lots of die tuning questions from sizing, oal variance, seating and crimp diameter. So, I gotta ask of those who are getting started.
Do you understand your dies ? If so, share what works. If not this is your opportunity to ask. For those operating progressive machines. Are you getting consistency ? By that I mean OAL, crimp diameter, charge weights, etc If not, this is your opportunity to fine tune. For those of us who've been at this a while and made tuning an art, this is our opportunity to share. 
The only stupid question is the one you don't ask ! dc. ETA, Die tuning starting top of page two. |
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I got a question! LOL!
Do you (or have you) ever do anything to the outside of your dies 'finish wise' to prevent them from rusting? I wish there was some sort of coating I could use to prevent surface rust. It kills me how fast the RCBS will get nasty if one is not really careful about keeping them cleaned/oiled... |
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after reading and reading here i got into reloading. bought a lee single stage to try it out and after about 2000 reloads of just 9mm.. im ready to go to another cal.
i cant thank everyone here enough of how much help you have been so far.. my goto load now is 124 berrys and 4.2 bullseye at 1.12 c.o.l. out of a glock 19 with a storm lake barrel |
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As for "Optimizing my dies" I just remove the depriming/expanding ball from my die and put it on a drill and use some scotchbrite to polish it. If your Die is dirty I just put it in a tumbler for several hours.
LEE's bullet seating dies are quite accurate and reliable, if you own a turret or progressive just purchase multiple turrets and keep your dies in them properly marked. After reloading thousands of .223 I have yet to adjust my bullet seating die. |
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Quoted: I got a question! LOL! Do you (or have you) ever do anything to the outside of your dies 'finish wise' to prevent them from rusting? I wish there was some sort of coating I could use to prevent surface rust. It kills me how fast the RCBS will get nasty if one is not really careful about keeping them cleaned/oiled... Toss a few of these in your die storage boxes. Replace every January |
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I am just starting to size some .223 on my rockchucker. I used a Dillon case gauge and set the case head .004" under under the top of the cut. Now I am wondering the best way to determine optimal coal for my rifle. Anyone know any cheap ways to do this? You could take a sacrificial piece of brass sized identical to the ones you want to use, and use it as an overall length gauge to determine OAL to the rifling. Cut a thin slot across (perpendicular to) the mouth of the case with a hacksaw blade (or some other thin saw blade) almost down to where the bottleneck begins. Then you can set your desired bullet in the slotted neck loosely and slowly chamber the "gauge" until the action is closed, or better yet just leave the bolt carrier out, and push the "gauge" in by hand until in stops. Next, slowly push the "gauge" out with a cleaning rod (being careful not to bump the bullet too hard) and measure the OAL. Repeat the process several times and check if your measurement is repeatable. You now know how long a completed round has to be in order to touch the rifling (with your brass and your particular bullet). Back off maybe 0.010" and you could experiment from there. Just be aware (as you probably already are) that anything over about 2.275" won't fit in a magazine. Also, I think that this is one of the very last things to tune in a cartridge (especially after powder type and charge weight is perfected). Hope this helps! Can't get much cheaper than that! 
If you want to optimize your sized brass to more closely fit your chamber (and work your brass less) get a Hornady headspace gauge and measure a piece of spent brass from your rifle. Then adjust the sizer until you are 2 or 3 thousandths from that number. Mike |
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Quoted: I am just starting to size some .223 on my rockchucker. I used a Dillon case gauge and set the case head .004" under under the top of the cut. Now I am wondering the best way to determine optimal coal for my rifle. Anyone know any cheap ways to do this? What rifle? AR? If AR you load to mag length or single load. Mag length is 2.260. So I load to 2.250 for an extra margin of piece of mind. Not hard to load .5 moa ammo at this OAL.
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I am just starting to size some .223 on my rock chucker. I used a Dillon case gauge and set the case head .004" under under the top of the cut. Now I am wondering the best way to determine optimal coal for my rifle. Anyone know any cheap ways to do this? You did say cheap. Right? You have one good suggestion so far and what dry flash posted too means a lot. Here is a toll I made from a broken cleaning rod. It can be easily duplicated with a good cleaning rod and 2 Possum Hallow rod stops. It may not be the tops in precision using the plastic rod stops put it will do the job. 
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Having a tough time with pull down .308s 147 grain FMJs from Top Brass and getting a consistent OAL. I have it set for 2.80" and I keep getting between 2.780 and 2.810.
I measured the projectiles themselves, and I'm not getting that much deviation in the length. I have a Hornady LnL progressive and I'm using Hornady Lee FCD. I notice that the more aggressive the crimp, the shorter the cartridge OAL. Is this supposed to be the case? I'm new to this, but it seems like there's more finicking than what's necessary. |
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Having a tough time with pull down .308s 147 grain FMJ from Top Brass and getting a consistent OAL. I have it set for 2.80" and I keep getting between 2.780 and 2.810. I measured the projectiles themselves, and I'm not getting that much deviation in the length. I have a Hornady LnL progressive and I'm using Hornady FCD. I notice that the more aggressive the crimp, the shorter the cartridge OAL. Is this supposed to be the case? I'm new to this, but it seems like there's more finicking than what's necessary. You are having a very common problem. It is the "pulled down" bullets. They were made buy different suppliers and have different nose profiles. There is really not much you can do about it without getting fairly technical. I found the ones that end up the longest and make them 2.800 and let the others go where they will. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. I kind of skipped over the part where the crimping was changing the OAL. That definitely should not happen. But the pulled bullets do vary. I have seen it on here and have personal experience with it as well. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. Sorry for the typing error. It's a lee FCD. I have the Hornady .308 dies and have the crimper function on the seating die backed off. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. Sorry for the typing error. It's a lee FCD. I have the Hornady .308 dies and have the crimper function on the seating die backed off. Figured you meant Lee, but that's not the reason I responded. 0.030 is way too much variance. Have you measured a group of projectiles checking for length variances ? Ultimately the only length with regard to rifle bullets is oal to ogive, but still, an over all cartridge length variance of 0.030 indicates something wrong. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. Sorry for the typing error. It's a lee FCD. I have the Hornady .308 dies and have the crimper function on the seating die backed off. Figured you meant Lee, but that's not the reason I responded. 0.030 is way too much variance. Have you measured a group of projectiles checking for length variances ? Ultimately the only length with regard to rifle bullets is oal to ogive, but still, an over all cartridge length variance of 0.030 indicates something wrong. Well, I made sure my plate and dies were in tightly and I'm using PRVI .308 brass only. I'm going to remeasure a sample of 30 projectiles tomorrow and report back. BTW, this thread is great. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. I kind of skipped over the part where the crimping was changing the OAL. That definitely should not happen. But the pulled bullets do vary. I have seen it on here and have personal experience with it as well. I've read previous posts where you mention crimp changes OAL. I've never experienced this but I will start to look for it. My first reaction is to question ogive seating distance to case mouth. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. I kind of skipped over the part where the crimping was changing the OAL. That definitely should not happen. But the pulled bullets do vary. I have seen it on here and have personal experience with it as well. I've read previous posts where you mention crimp changes ALI've never experienced this but I will start to look for it. My first reaction is to question ogive seating distance to case mouth. Yes this is exactly where the difference in OAL is coming from. Just measuring the OAL of the bullets will tell you nothing. I have been here and done this. The bullets are from pulled down military ammo. They are not all the same. This is VERY common. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. I kind of skipped over the part where the crimping was changing the OAL. That definitely should not happen. But the pulled bullets do vary. I have seen it on here and have personal experience with it as well. I've read previous posts where you mention crimp changes ALI've never experienced this but I will start to look for it. My first reaction is to question ogive seating distance to case mouth. Yes this is exactly where the difference in OAL is coming from. Just measuring the OAL of the bullets will tell you nothing. I have been here and done this. The bullets are from pulled down military ammo. They are not all the same. This is VERY common. Yeah, I was thinking about it. Even if I measure the longest ones and seat based on that, there will still be differences in the nose of each bullet that will affect OAL. Should I adjust until most of them are at 2.785-2.795" and then let the others fall into line? This is kind of what I did, anyways. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. I kind of skipped over the part where the crimping was changing the OAL. That definitely should not happen. But the pulled bullets do vary. I have seen it on here and have personal experience with it as well. I've read previous posts where you mention crimp changes ALI've never experienced this but I will start to look for it. My first reaction is to question ogive seating distance to case mouth. Yes this is exactly where the difference in OAL is coming from. Just measuring the OAL of the bullets will tell you nothing. I have been here and done this. The bullets are from pulled down military ammo. They are not all the same. This is VERY common. Yeah, I was thinking about it. Even if I measure the longest ones and seat based on that, there will still be differences in the nose of each bullet that will affect OAL. Should I adjust until most of them are at 2.785-2.795" and then let the others fall into line? This is kind of what I did, anyways. Responding to both this post and motor1's post. I've seated some cheap Armscor bullets and never, ever seen variances you both report having. The first thing I would do if it were me having this issue is get a sampling of projectile height. |
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Hornady doesn't make an FCD and .030 variance is 3 times more than commercial ammunition makers allow for oal variance. This is an example we can use for later. I kind of skipped over the part where the crimping was changing the OAL. That definitely should not happen. But the pulled bullets do vary. I have seen it on here and have personal experience with it as well. I've read previous posts where you mention crimp changes I've never experienced this but I will start to look for it. My first reaction is to question ogive seating distance to case mouth. Yes this is exactly where the difference in OAL is coming from. Just measuring the OAL of the bullets will tell you nothing. I have been here and done this. The bullets are from pulled down military ammo. They are not all the same. This is VERY common. Yeah, I was thinking about it. Even if I measure the longest ones and seat based on that, there will still be differences in the nose of each bullet that will affect OAL. Should I adjust until most of them are at 2.785-2.795" and then let the others fall into line? This is kind of what I did, anyways. Yep. That is what I suggested in my first reply to your OP. I bought a bag of pulls at a gun show. Used my tool (picture posted above) to measure "contact length". All for not. The OAL's were all over the place. Since the seater plug seats off of the diameter on the nose of the bullet, where ever it touches it there is not much else you can do that would not be very time consuming. |
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Motor1,
You're either in uncharted waters for me and/or this thread will be of benefit to you. Could be I'm the one who gets the greatest benefit of doing this here technical thread. We've got some pretty smart guys in here, you included. I'd like to hear from those tuning pistol dies before we start trimming fat off the meat. |
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Motor1, You're either in uncharted waters for me and/or this thread will be of benefit to you. Could be I'm the one who gets the greatest benefit of doing this here technical thread. We've got some pretty smart guys in here, you included. I'd like to hear from those tuning pistol dies before we start trimming fat off the meat. I understand. But I am not the only one. I saw this same complaint right here on this forum about pulled bullets. You could see the difference is some of them with your naked eye. Especially how the jacket is formed at the base where the lead is exposed. I'll start a new thread. |
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I am just starting to size some .223 on my rock chucker. I used a Dillon case gauge and set the case head .004" under under the top of the cut. Now I am wondering the best way to determine optimal coal for my rifle. Anyone know any cheap ways to do this? You did say cheap. Right? You have one good suggestion so far and what dry flash posted too means a lot. Here is a toll I made from a broken cleaning rod. It can be easily duplicated with a good cleaning rod and 2 Possum Hallow rod stops. It may not be the tops in precision using the plastic rod stops put it will do the job. http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u477/Motor60/076d8184.jpg Thanks, exactly what I was looking for! Thanks! |
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I am just starting to size some .223 on my rock chucker. I used a Dillon case gauge and set the case head .004" under under the top of the cut. Now I am wondering the best way to determine optimal coal for my rifle. Anyone know any cheap ways to do this? You did say cheap. Right? You have one good suggestion so far and what dry flash posted too means a lot. Here is a toll I made from a broken cleaning rod. It can be easily duplicated with a good cleaning rod and 2 Possum Hallow rod stops. It may not be the tops in precision using the plastic rod stops put it will do the job. http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u477/Motor60/076d8184.jpg I just started researching reloading around Thanksgiving so I am not very knowledgeable yet. I have been successful reloading 9mm, but bottleneck cartridges are quite a bit more involved. How would this device be used, I am not figuring it out... |
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Die tuning for Pro1000 users.
I don't mess around if there's a tuning issue. Every die will be pulled, taken apart, examined, cleaned and put back together. I have a Pro1000, set up differently than most. Index set as follows. 1.) Powder die 2.) Seater die 3.) FCD I size single stage and hand prime. Set up as you are. 1.) Sizer die 2.) Powder die 3.) Seat/crimp die Pull dies, pull apart and clean. The exercise here is familiarise yourself with dies. People sometimes don't want to touch a die once it's perceived to be set. We've had guys moan about a fail to gauge issue for days, before pulling a die. Don't be intimidated by reloading dies. You bought'em, so own'em. Powder die is the first die to set. Take a handful of sized brass, measure. Take longest piece to index, raise ram, thread die to case mouth, back case mouth off die and turn powder thru expander in small increments until case mouth is flared by at least 0.004. Next flare shortest case. This case should flare to an inside diameter at least 0.001 larger than bullet diameter. Increase or reduce flare as needed and lock die. The idea of flaring longest brass length first is insuring press ram extends fully without stalling on expander. This is where oal variances occur. So set expander to shortest brass and make sure ram isn't short stroking on longest brass. Leave long brass in index, under powder thru expander die. Take shortest length brass you used for bell, situate under seater die and back seater stem completely out. Raise ram, thread die down until touching case mouth, back off, turn die 1/4 turn and adjust in small increments until case mouth measures at least 0.001 under target crimp diameter. Flare short brass again, place long brass under ptx again then set oal to target height. There might be a little shaving if loading lead on this first bullet, don't worry with it. Shavings are caused from case mouth closing (crimp) as bullet is seating. Since you're adjusting oal with case mouth closed, shavings can occur. The idea of this exercise is setting die to crimp with case height variance. Crimp tension will be tighter on longer length, than shortest length. Case wall thickness will vary between head stamps too, meaning some bullets will be slightly post sized inside case. This is not a concern so much as outside crimp diameter allows cartridge to gage or chamber. This principle is the same REGARDLESS OF METHOD whether seating crimping in one operation or seating and crimping in two separate stages using two dies. The goal is to crimp shortest length to gage or chamber while making as light a crimp print as possible on longest piece. I could expand a little more, except for the fact someone will interject a point that could be put use within the context of seat/crimp operation. Last is sizer die. Saving this for last insures ram doesn't hang on sizer die. With PTX and seat/crimp station loaded, extend ram and run sizer die firm to index. Back ram down, secure die. Next we have to set neck tension. This is done with knurled knob, top of sizer die. I like to set sized case mouth at least 0.003 under target loaded case mouth diameter. Run index a few cycles, fine tune as needed. Own your dies and load safe, dc. |
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Sequential Die Tuning is text book die tuning starting with sizer die and ending with crimp die. Pistol die sets are sold in 3 and 4 die sets, this is my focus for now.
1.) Sizer Die, thread die down with ram fully extended until die touches shell plate/shell holder. Snug lock ring. 2.) Powder thru Expander Die, thread die partially, load shell plate/shell holder with a case, extend ram. Thread die until it touches case mouth. Adjust in small increments until case mouth flares. I have a simple method for setting case flare. Measure handful of brass, keeping longest and shortest. My method is to take bullet diameter and add to case wall thickness times two and sum. Flare is set 0.001 over sum for shortest piece of brass. For consistent OAL it's important that longest case not limit ram from full extension. Inconsistent trim heights equals inconsistent case mouth flare. Just the way it is. To get a consistent case mouth flare, trim height has to be consistent. Hardly anyone trims pistol brass, it's not necessary for semi-auto application or revolvers crimped with Lee Factory Crimp Die. 3.) Seating Dies, extend ram with case in shell plate/shell holder and thread until die makes contact. Depending on the brand of die back out to two to three full turns. Dillon is two, Lee is three. How many revolutions should be clearly stated with die instructions. If using a seater only die, thread die down, thread out as instructions state, snug lock ring and adjust seating stem to target oal. IF using a roll crimp die, which I sometimes do to seat and make a light taper crimp in one operation, load shell plate/shell holder with belled brass and extend ram into partially threaded seater/roll crimp die with seater stem backed out. Thread die down until touching belled case mouth, back ram off and turn another quarter turn. Snug lock ring and adjust seater stem to target OAL as you seat bullet. Case gage cartridge using barrel chamber or case gage such as Dillon or Wilson. Loaded case mouth should measure no more than bullet diameter + case wall thickness times two. That's what I call a Zero sum crimp having reduced case mouth diameter to eliminate case mouth flare. Crimp diameter is adjusted to values below by threading die down in small increments If your case buckles, die is set too deep. Subtract 0.00 for Zero sum crimp Subtract 0.001 for light crimp Subtract 0.002 for medium crimp Subtract 0.003 for heavy crimp Thread die down for target crimp diameter, snug lock ring and re-adjust seater stem to target OAL. 4.) Taper crimp die, there are two that need to be discussed and both are taper crimp dies. Traditional Taper Crimp is adjusted best by taking a sized, empty case and threading die until it touches case mouth, lower ram and thread down another 1/4 turn. Adjustment for crimp diameter is fine tuned afterwards. Lee factory Crimp Die, back adjusting screw completely out, thread die down to shell plate/shell holder until die touches, secure lock ring. Take a loaded cartridge and thread adjustment screw until it touches cartridge, back off cartridge and turn adjustment screw in 1/4 turn increments to target crimp diameter. Here's what the math looks like when figuring flare and crimp diameter. bullet diameter + case wall diameter x 2 = component diameter or what I call "Zero Sum." Add for flare and subtract for crimp diameter. Should be clear as mud. 
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Non-Sequential Die Tuning.
Seems like some days, all we do is sort out tuning issues. Die tuning is simple, really. That is until we have an issue and "think" we know what's going on, correct to find problem persists. This is sometimes how problems become phenomenon and all objectivety is lost. I've made it study, watching forums loose objectivety and resort to talking points. What are talking points ? Generalized statements used to blanket an array of issues. Example, case buckling. Answer, seat with one die, crimp with another. Problem with talking points, they serve to up your post count and that's about it because issue could've been within sizer die or powder thru expander die. If you've got an old AP press like mine you might be using a bell die. Consider any reference I make to PTX to include bell die. Non sequentially setting dies cures a lot of issues. OAL consistency being just one issue cured setting dies this way. We start by setting PTX die first. Starting with number 2, in above post set PTX, then 3, 4 and finish with step one. Sizer die. With all stations full, except sizer station. Run size die down to shell plate. Snug lock ring and remove decapping pin/case mouth expander. Run an unsized case to index, size and lower ram. Now set decapper pin just long enough to decap and case mouth expander down just far enough to size case mouth 0.002 to 0.004 under your target crimp diameter with pistol cases 9mm and larger. I set rifle case neck ID 0.002 under bullet diameter for neck tension. |
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Seat, roll crimp rifle in one pass using roll crimp die.
For .223, these are the steps necessary to tune one die to seat and roll crimp in one operation. This isn't popular method or accepted method in this forum. But, this is a tried and proven, old school method EVERYONE should know. If you were to be an invited student in my home this is one basic taught before we get to what you want to learn. 
1.) Take sized brass, index in station, extend ram and run die to case mouth. 2.) Lower ram, measure case mouth. My target roll crimp diameter for .223 with cannelured bullets and LC brass is 0.246. 3. After crimp is set, snug lock ring and set seating stem to desired oal. 4.) Measure crimp diameter and adjust die in 1/8 turn increments. Remember as die is spun down for crimp, seating stem should be threaded up if wanting same oal. 5. Once die is tuned to target cartridge geometry, secure lock nut. Trim height must be consistent for consistent crimp diameter. This is seating and crimping in one pass, with one die explained, questions ? |
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My cousin is setting up a tool head on his 650 to deprime, size/trim (1200 trimmer) and neck size with an M die.
He was setting up the M die and was getting a belling on the case mouth that would open to the point that the brass couldn't fit back into the case gauge. He stated that the instructions included were less than adequate and called me to see what I thought. As I don't have any experiece with that die, I was unable to provide any advice. What is the best way to set up an M die? |
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My cousin is setting up a tool head on his 650 to deprime, size/trim (1200 trimmer) and neck size with an M die. He was setting up the M die and was getting a belling on the case mouth that would open to the point that the brass couldn't fit back into the case gauge. He stated that the instructions included were less than adequate and called me to see what I thought. As I don't have any experiece with that die, I was unable to provide any advice. What is the best way to set up an M die? I can do better than that. I'll share how I tuned my XL650 tool head. First die to install is Dillon trim die, then sizer/decap die, followed with Lyman M die. I use an M die to lightly flare case mouth by 0.002 over sized case mouth diameter. Once this is done, brass won't case gage in an L.E. Wilson case gage because of flare, just makes sense that it won't. Setting XL650 tool head for size, trim, M die in the sequence I set dies. 1.) Install Dillon trim die in station # 3. Run die down until brass will case gage using either Dillon or Wilson gage. I use Wilson and by the way, my gages are rust free. When set, secure lock nut. To keep trimmer from "torquing" trim die out secure trim die with another lock nut from under tool head. I use a Lee lock ring. Most use Hornady lock ring, which ever, one works as well as the other for me. 2.) Install RL1200 trimmer. I load a trimmed to my desired trim height bottlenecked brass. My preference for .223 is 1.750. Load trimmed brass in shellplate and extend ram. Then back locking nut off trimmer and run trimmer down until trim blade touches brass. Secure lock nut. Adjust as needed. I cheated a bit last time I set mine. I ran trimmer down until blade touched brass, lowered ram and loaded an untrimmed, but previously sized piece of brass, turned trimmer on while securing with one hand and extending ram with the other. This was an up, down, on and off flip of trimmer switch until trim height was dialed. Then I secured lock nut. Better have a good grip on the trimmer is my advice. 3.) I have a Dillon carbide sizer in station one. After setting trim die and trimmer I extend ram with trimmed brass loaded in trim die. That done I run down sizer die until base firmly touches shellplate and secure lock nut. 4. With stations one and three loaded, ram extended I set M die to bell 0.002 over sized case mouth diameter. Now you're set to load 2nd tool head with Lee Universal decapper. Suggest to your friend that he either case gages occasionally at station four or move M die to second tool head. Not everyone will agree with this method. This is my method for my operation. We set the bar for standards within our operations. Anticipating an antagonistic response or three I'm going to say a few things. I don't worry with work hardening brass seeings I anneal every other firing. For those who don't anneal your first pass will be different than mine. Instead of questioning my method, explain your own method and reasoning but whatever you do don't poison this thread. You do and you might feel some teeth where a door might swing. Keep it upbeat and constructive, please. dc. |
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Not really a noob, but I haven't quite reached "seasoned vet" status yet.
I've got the basics down pretty well, and I'm making ammo that shoots reasonably well. However, I'm trying to get everything to come out more consistent now that I have the basics down. My bullet seating doesn't vary nearly as much as the guy who posted earlier, but I am getting some slight variations, in the neighborhood of +/- .003". It's not something that I'm worried about, but it's something that I'd like to work on cutting down, if possible. Am I chasing a wild goose here, or is there something I can do to improve on this? For what it's worth, I'm loading on a RockChucker Supreme and using RCBS dies |
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Not really a noob, but I haven't quite reached "seasoned vet" status yet. I've got the basics down pretty well, and I'm making ammo that shoots reasonably well. However, I'm trying to get everything to come out more consistent now that I have the basics down. My bullet seating doesn't vary nearly as much as the guy who posted earlier, but I am getting some slight variations, in the neighborhood of +/- .003". It's not something that I'm worried about, but it's something that I'd like to work on cutting down, if possible. Am I chasing a wild goose here, or is there something I can do to improve on this? For what it's worth, I'm loading on a RockChucker Supreme and using RCBS dies All things considered. I say +/-.003" is pretty good for the equipment you describe. I'm not saying your equipment is inferior mind you. It is good quality "standard" equipment. You may want to check how good the seat plug to bullet tip fit is. Sometimes switching to a different seat plug, if possible, can help. Also you didn't mention what you are loading or if you are crimping. Seating and crimping in 2 separate operations can help maintain a more consistent OAL. Also. Soft point bullets very often have tip variations as do match hollow points. It's much more accurate to measure these with a tool that will measure off of the bullets diameter below the tip. Much the same way the seat plug contacts the bullet. Then think about all the little things that could change your seating depth like little burrs or dings on the case head or rim for example. Yes I'd say +/-.003" is pretty darn good. |
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Sequential Die Tuning is text book die tuning starting with sizer die and ending with crimp die. Pistol die sets are sold in 3 and 4 die sets, this is my focus for now. 1.) Sizer Die, thread die down with ram fully extended until die touches shell plate/shell holder. Snug lock ring. 2.) Powder thru Expander Die, thread die partially, load shell plate/shell holder with a case, extend ram. Thread die until it touches case mouth. Adjust in small increments until case mouth flares. I have a simple method for setting case flare. Measure handful of brass, keeping longest and shortest. My method is to take bullet diameter and add to case wall thickness times two and sum. Flare is set 0.001 over sum for shortest piece of brass. For consistent OAL it's important that longest case not limit ram from full extension. Inconsistent trim heights equals inconsistent case mouth flare. Just the way it is. To get a consistent case mouth flare, trim height has to be consistent. Hardly anyone trims pistol brass, it's not necessary for semi-auto application or revolvers crimped with Lee Factory Crimp Die. 3.) Seating Dies, extend ram with case in shell plate/shell holder and thread until die makes contact. Depending on the brand of die back out to two to three full turns. Dillon is two, Lee is three. How many revolutions should be clearly stated with die instructions. If using a seater only die, thread die down, thread out as instructions state, snug lock ring and adjust seating stem to target oal. IF using a roll crimp die, which I sometimes do to seat and make a light taper crimp in one operation, load shell plate/shell holder with belled brass and extend ram into partially threaded seater/roll crimp die with seater stem backed out. Thread die down until touching belled case mouth, back ram off and turn another quarter turn. Snug lock ring and adjust seater stem to target OAL as you seat bullet. Case gage cartridge using barrel chamber or case gage such as Dillon or Wilson. Loaded case mouth should measure no more than bullet diameter + case wall thickness times two. That's what I call a Zero sum crimp having reduced case mouth diameter to eliminate case mouth flare. Crimp diameter is adjusted to values below by threading die down in small increments If your case buckles, die is set too deep. Subtract 0.00 for Zero sum crimp Subtract 0.001 for light crimp Subtract 0.002 for medium crimp Subtract 0.003 for heavy crimp Thread die down for target crimp diameter, snug lock ring and re-adjust seater stem to target OAL. 4.) Taper crimp die, there are two that need to be discussed and both are taper crimp dies. Traditional Taper Crimp is adjusted best by taking a sized, empty case and threading die until it touches case mouth, lower ram and thread down another 1/4 turn. Adjustment for crimp diameter is fine tuned afterwards. Lee factory Crimp Die, back adjusting screw completely out, thread die down to shell plate/shell holder until die touches, secure lock ring. Take a loaded cartridge and thread adjustment screw until it touches cartridge, back off cartridge and turn adjustment screw in 1/4 turn increments to target crimp diameter. Here's what the math looks like when figuring flare and crimp diameter. bullet diameter + case wall diameter x 2 = component diameter or what I call "Zero Sum." Add for flare and subtract for crimp diameter. Should be clear as mud. WOW! This should be stickied somewhere! I'm putting all the tips and tricks, knowlege I find into a word document for later review when i start my initial runs (when i get setup) then I can just read and go! These tips made it to my documetn! Thanks for your sharing! |
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Not really a noob, but I haven't quite reached "seasoned vet" status yet. I've got the basics down pretty well, and I'm making ammo that shoots reasonably well. However, I'm trying to get everything to come out more consistent now that I have the basics down. My bullet seating doesn't vary nearly as much as the guy who posted earlier, but I am getting some slight variations, in the neighborhood of +/- .003". It's not something that I'm worried about, but it's something that I'd like to work on cutting down, if possible. Am I chasing a wild goose here, or is there something I can do to improve on this? For what it's worth, I'm loading on a RockChucker Supreme and using RCBS dies All things considered. I say +/-.003" is pretty good for the equipment you describe. I'm not saying your equipment is inferior mind you. It is good quality "standard" equipment. You may want to check how good the seat plug to bullet tip fit is. Sometimes switching to a different seat plug, if possible, can help. Also you didn't mention what you are loading or if you are crimping. Seating and crimping in 2 separate operations can help maintain a more consistent OAL. Also. Soft point bullets very often have tip variations as do match hollow points. It's much more accurate to measure these with a tool that will measure off of the bullets diameter below the tip. Much the same way the seat plug contacts the bullet. Then think about all the little things that could change your seating depth like little burrs or dings on the case head or rim for example. Yes I'd say +/-.003" is pretty darn good. .40 S&W, .380 ACP, and .22-250 Rem. I'm taper crimping the .40 and .380 as I seat, but I'm not crimping the .22-250 at all since I'm running it through a bolt gun. In the rifle, I'm using 55gr Sierra BlitzKings. 
I got a bullet comparator for Christmas, but all I've used it for so far is trying to get an OAL reading with the Hornady OAL gauge I got for Christmas too. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm going to try measuring actual OAL on a few of my rounds, and then using the comparator to see if those numbers vary as much as the actual OAL. Thanks! |
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INFO: I've been reading about reloading for quite a while. I've now bought all my equipment and supplies (Thankfully before Newtown) and have tumbled, re-sized, de-capped, cleaned primer pockets, chamfered inside & outside of case necks, cleaned flash holes, and have re-tumbled the brass to get rid of the case lube.
QUESTION #1: I get that the Maximum Overall Length of a .223 round is 2.260. I measured several new production Hornady rounds, and they were all 2.230. This round has always fired well in my rifle. My question is how can a round thirty thousandths smaller than max fire so well? AND, How far under the 2.260 is considered safe? Thirty thousandths seems like a lot to me. Thanks so much for your help. You guys have been great. |
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INFO: I've been reading about reloading for quite a while. I've now bought all my equipment and supplies (Thankfully before Newtown) and have tumbled, re-sized, de-capped, cleaned primer pockets, chamfered inside & outside of case necks, cleaned flash holes, and have re-tumbled the brass to get rid of the case lube. QUESTION #1: I get that the Maximum Overall Length of a .223 round is 2.260. I measured several new production Hornady rounds, and they were all 2.230. This round has always fired well in my rifle. My question is how can a round thirty thousandths smaller than max fire so well? AND, How far under the 2.260 is considered safe? Thirty thousandths seems like a lot to me. Thanks so much for your help. You guys have been great. Don't size shorter than what your book calls for. The max COAL is actually what feeds into your rifle properly without contacting the rifling. The one seated shorter will have a higher internal pressure because of the reduced internal volume. I Like to set my bullets as far out as possible while still feeding from the mag and cycling properly. That really is the perk of reloading, custom tailoring rounds to your weapon. |
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Quoted: INFO: I've been reading about reloading for quite a while. I've now bought all my equipment and supplies (Thankfully before Newtown) and have tumbled, re-sized, de-capped, cleaned primer pockets, chamfered inside & outside of case necks, cleaned flash holes, and have re-tumbled the brass to get rid of the case lube. QUESTION #1: I get that the Maximum Overall Length of a .223 round is 2.260. Like a speed limit on the road. Speed limit is 60 mph, doesn't mean you can't go 55 mph. The key here is Maximum OAL, not that that's what is used in every case. I measured several new production Hornady rounds, and they were all 2.230. This round has always fired well in my rifle. My question is how can a round thirty thousandths smaller than max fire so well? AND, How far under the 2.260 is considered safe? That's GTG, short bullet doesn't need to go Max OAL. Thirty thousandths seems like a lot to me. See above. Thanks so much for your help. You guys have been great. Double spacing between complete sentances makes it easier to answer your questions without all the text boxes. |
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My question is how can a round thirty thousandths smaller than max fire so well? AND, How far under the 2.260 is considered safe? That's GTG, short bullet doesn't need to go Max OAL.
I can add to this some since ive started running a wildcat and use lighter than most bullets. Good rule of thumb when using a shorter bullet. Try to make the bullet depth into the neck the same dia as the bullet itself. So, if using a .224" bullet just make sure you have at least .224" of the bullet seated into the case. You may find that a light bullet will not seat out to mag length, so just ensure you have the bullet seated at least its dia. deep, this will ensure good neck tension. Then tune from there.
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ok so i'm moving from successfully loading 1k of .223 and now moving to 10mm. I'm using the hornady HAP rounds whilch look like a jacketed hollow point and are flat on the top of the round.
So first question, which seating stem or does it matter? I'm thinking the flat one vs the cone shaped one. next my sizing die is turned own to touch the plate (lnl ap) so i took three unsized shells. sizes were in order .981, .979 and .973. Post sizing the come out to .984, .983, and .977. Shouldnt they be consistent? to rule out lube i lubed every single one. which by everything i'm reading its saying to just lube the first round. And it sounds like pistol is so easy to load vs. rifle. but when i get to my seating die...i keep coming up with various seat depths even though i had it dead on at 1.25. i'll see 1.256 pop up. Going to move out the cone seater now and use the flat one thinking it's working off the curve of the round which may differ between rounds (perhaps??) |
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ok so i'm moving from successfully loading 1k of .223 and now moving to 10mm. I'm using the hornady HAP rounds whilch look like a jacketed hollow point and are flat on the top of the round. So first question, which seating stem or does it matter? I'm thinking the flat one vs the cone shaped one.cone next my sizing die is turned own to touch the plate (lnl ap) so i took three unsized shells. sizes were in order .981, .979 and .973. Post sizing the come out to .984, .983, and .977. Shouldnt they be consistent? to rule out lube i lubed every single one. which by everything i'm reading its saying to just lube the first round. And it sounds like pistol is so easy to load vs. rifle. but when i get to my seating die...i keep coming up with various seat depths even though i had it dead on at 1.25. i'll see 1.256 pop up. Going to move out the cone seater now and use the flat one thinking it's working off the curve of the round which may differ between rounds (perhaps??) Oal variances averaging 0.003 and under suit me fine. 0.010 and under are accepted within commercial manufacturing. Post sizing results reflect spring back, difference in head stamps or work hardening. Fact is, spring back variances are something we deal with and do not change the tolerences we build within. Adjust accordingly, dc. |
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Quoted: I got a question! LOL! Do you (or have you) ever do anything to the outside of your dies 'finish wise' to prevent them from rusting? I wish there was some sort of coating I could use to prevent surface rust. It kills me how fast the RCBS will get nasty if one is not really careful about keeping them cleaned/oiled... I just got around to check out this thread. Ar-15TechGuy, you got one answer to your question and a good one, but there are times you don't put away your dies in the "protected" box, as in when you keep them in populated tool heads on a progressive or turret. For those times do what museums do to prevent rusting or other other corrosion of expensive artifacts: (and you can get it from Midway or Brownells) Renaissance Wax Rust Preventative and Gun Stock Polish Brownells says: "Imparts a beautiful, glowing luster and moisture resistance to wood, leather, marble, ivory, natural stone and metal; resists fingerprints, dust and wear. Helps prevent oxidation, removes oil and grime; leaves the treated surface with a translucent, warm glow. Restores cloudy stock finishes. Acid-free, dries clear, won’t discolor or yellow. Imparts a beautiful, glowing luster and moisture resistance to wood, leather, marble, ivory, natural stone and metal; resists fingerprints, dust and wear. Helps prevent oxidation, removes oil and grime; leaves the treated surface with a translucent, warm glow. Restores cloudy stock finishes. Acid-free, dries clear, won’t discolor or yellow."  |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do you know how to optimize your reloading dies ? Die tuning, page two. (Page 1 of 2)
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