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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Any new news on ATI's mp5k 9mm? (Page 2 of 3)
| Perhaps someone can enlighten me, and I say this in all humility: why is the MP5-type not a $500 weapon?? I see nothing particularly special in the design or construction to warrant prices in the near-$2K range. I would seriously like to know the answer to this–– it's been bugging me for years. I asked it once before and got the "You vill vorship our perfektion!"-type response, which is no response at all, merely an insult to my intelligence (and their own). I am not trying to troll–– I am genuinely curious. I have an AR 9mm carbine that runs fine, but I could build three of them for what the MP5 clones go for. That said, I would very much like to own one someday, if the price wasn't prohibitive. Thanks in advance. |
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Quoted: Perhaps someone can enlighten me, and I say this in all humility: why is the MP5-type not a $500 weapon?? I see nothing particularly special in the design or construction to warrant prices in the near-$2K range. I would seriously like to know the answer to this–– it's been bugging me for years. I asked it once before and got the "You vill vorship our perfektion!"-type response, which is no response at all, merely an insult to my intelligence (and their own). I am not trying to troll–– I am genuinely curious. I have an AR 9mm carbine that runs fine, but I could build three of them for what the MP5 clones go for. That said, I would very much like to own one someday, if the price wasn't prohibitive. Thanks in advance. "You vill vorship our perfektion!"  |
I got to shoot a friend's full up MP-5 9mm some time back. He was a Border Patrol Deputy Chief and we went to their range. I was impressed, but not THAT impressed - especially since his cost WAY more than $2K. Nice little 100 yard gun. He said it was retired in favor of an AR type because it wouldn't defeat body armor - something a weapon in that price range should do. I thought for what it cost it should have made coffee in the morning. 
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How about going with the HK34 concept? I heard about it over on HKPro, and I've been wanting on 
For those of you who haven't heard it's a HK94 with a longer G3 forearm in order to deal with the ugly looking 16" bbl on HK bbls for those who can't have or don't want an SBR. Here are some pictures from my picture collection. These are the only HK34 pics I've been able to find. How about these; http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01332009_04_10.jpghttp://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01232009_04_10.jpghttp://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01352009_04_10.jpghttp://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01272009_04_10.jpg This is a custom made "34" with all HK parts except the barrel and flash hider. 
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Perhaps someone can enlighten me, and I say this in all humility: why is the MP5-type not a $500 weapon?? I see nothing particularly special in the design or construction to warrant prices in the near-$2K range. I would seriously like to know the answer to this–– it's been bugging me for years. I asked it once before and got the "You vill vorship our perfektion!"-type response, which is no response at all, merely an insult to my intelligence (and their own). I am not trying to troll–– I am genuinely curious. I have an AR 9mm carbine that runs fine, but I could build three of them for what the MP5 clones go for. That said, I would very much like to own one someday, if the price wasn't prohibitive. Thanks in advance. You are paying for the name and hype. Plain and simple. On the history channel they qouted that, " a brand new select fire MP5 cost the US govt. around $450.00" This same weapon will cost YOU $18,000.00- $23,000.00, without the tax stamp, semi-auto, $5000.00-$6500.00. Remember, this is a stamped and welded firearm. A good smith can build one that is just as good minus the HK nomenclature. This is why HK is trying to sue anyone making these and HK is not even producing these guns anymore. They have moved on to polymer weaponry. As long as people pay these prices they will be those prices. Even the reproductions command exorbitant prices. Lastly, check out the prices for HK parts, they are ridiculous. A bolt head and carrier run around $700-800!! Hk announced that internal parts will be serialized and not available to the public, so expect these prices to go waaaaaay up. |
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How about going with the HK34 concept? I heard about it over on HKPro, and I've been wanting on
For those of you who haven't heard it's a HK94 with a longer G3 forearm in order to deal with the ugly looking 16" bbl on HK bbls for those who can't have or don't want an SBR. Here are some pictures from my picture collection. These are the only HK34 pics I've been able to find. How about these; http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01332009_04_10.jpghttp://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01232009_04_10.jpghttp://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01352009_04_10.jpghttp://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ddoneill/IMG_01272009_04_10.jpg This is a custom made "34" with all HK parts except the barrel and flash hider.
That's beautiful. How much did that cost you? Who built it? Details! I don't think I'll ever be able to afford one, but I'm interested for "academic" reasons. |
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Perhaps someone can enlighten me, and I say this in all humility: why is the MP5-type not a $500 weapon?? I see nothing particularly special in the design or construction to warrant prices in the near-$2K range. I would seriously like to know the answer to this–– it's been bugging me for years. I asked it once before and got the "You vill vorship our perfektion!"-type response, which is no response at all, merely an insult to my intelligence (and their own). I am not trying to troll–– I am genuinely curious. I have an AR 9mm carbine that runs fine, but I could build three of them for what the MP5 clones go for. That said, I would very much like to own one someday, if the price wasn't prohibitive. Thanks in advance. You are paying for the name and hype. Plain and simple. On the history channel they qouted that, " a brand new select fire MP5 cost the US govt. around $450.00" This same weapon will cost YOU $18,000.00- $23,000.00, without the tax stamp, semi-auto, $5000.00-$6500.00. Remember, this is a stamped and welded firearm. A good smith can build one that is just as good minus the HK nomenclature. This is why HK is trying to sue anyone making these and HK is not even producing these guns anymore. They have moved on to polymer weaponry. As long as people pay these prices they will be those prices. Even the reproductions command exorbitant prices. Lastly, check out the prices for HK parts, they are ridiculous. A bolt head and carrier run around $700-800!! Hk announced that internal parts will be serialized and not available to the public, so expect these prices to go waaaaaay up. Wouldnt the patent be up now allowing anyone to make and sell them? The it's not like LWRC hqas to pay Eugene stoner to use the AR design. |
| HK is suing for "trade dress" issues not patent violation. You are right the patent expired long ago. Get this, they are also claiming the 416/417 series rifles, gas piston ARs is their design also. I guess Stoner, Colt, Bushmaster and anyone else making ARs are copying HK. Talk about arrogant. You do understand HK cares NOTHING about second amendment rights or civilian firearms ownership. This is just an attempt by lawyers to make money and discourage the building of these platforms. They threaten to sue you and you spend a whole lot of money to prove they have no case but most cannot afford that whole legal BS game so they just don't make them. I support and encourage the domestic MFG's even,(with predjudice) T. Bailey for this fact. I would never buy from him again after dealing with him but he is American. Even he has stated he is giving it up. |
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Perhaps someone can enlighten me, and I say this in all humility: why is the MP5-type not a $500 weapon?? I see nothing particularly special in the design or construction to warrant prices in the near-$2K range. I would seriously like to know the answer to this–– it's been bugging me for years. I asked it once before and got the "You vill vorship our perfektion!"-type response, which is no response at all, merely an insult to my intelligence (and their own). I am not trying to troll–– I am genuinely curious. I have an AR 9mm carbine that runs fine, but I could build three of them for what the MP5 clones go for. That said, I would very much like to own one someday, if the price wasn't prohibitive. Thanks in advance. I was able to get one for $600 at an auction less than a year ago...It had a Special Weapons receiver but it had been built by Jayson at IGF..it still needed a few parts swapped but it runs like a top now ....SBR'd it and I'm a happy man now |
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I was just wondering if there was any new news on this from our friends at ATI??????
Yeah, a bit at least. The AT94 and AT94K pistols are in production in Turkey now as we have the approval to import the modified designs we've worked out with the manufacturer. We have the 9mm carbine and the 223 carbine in to the ATF FTB right now, probably another 2 to 3 weeks before they tell us it's ok to import those as well. That's about all I have to offer for an update so far, I just double checked and we still don't have pricing in the system for them yet. Based on production and cost I would hope we could start bringing in the pistols around the end of next month, but we shall see. It always takes the longest to get that first shipment. |
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I was just wondering if there was any new news on this from our friends at ATI??????
Yeah, a bit at least. The AT94 and AT94K pistols are in production in Turkey now as we have the approval to import the modified designs we've worked out with the manufacturer. We have the 9mm carbine and the 223 carbine in to the ATF FTB right now, probably another 2 to 3 weeks before they tell us it's ok to import those as well. That's about all I have to offer for an update so far, I just double checked and we still don't have pricing in the system for them yet. Based on production and cost I would hope we could start bringing in the pistols around the end of next month, but we shall see. It always takes the longest to get that first shipment. Good to hear! I am on the Hunt for a 9mm version and its slim pickings right now. Very interested in 9mm Carbine. |
| Are the fitst ones chris gonna be p's or pk's? I last ?, gsg's actual receiver is imho aesthetically the best mp5 type including hks.....only reason i havent got a cohiarie or bobcat is cause of the crappy looking welds. So will these new 9mms have the awesome clean and smooth receivers as all the gsg5 have? Thanks in advance and u can count me in for 2 pks! |
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Well, I have no idea how to embed my youtube video on the forum page here, so click HERE to see a video.
It's short but sweet, and exactly what you guys are talking about. This was shot 2 days ago at an ATI range test. |
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Well, I have no idea how to embed my youtube video on the forum page here, so click HERE to see a video. It's short but sweet, and exactly what you guys are talking about. This was shot 2 days ago at an ATI range test. Nice, now if someone who just knew how to shot it would perform the test 
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Well, I have no idea how to embed my youtube video on the forum page here, so click HERE to see a video. It's short but sweet, and exactly what you guys are talking about. This was shot 2 days ago at an ATI range test. Nice, now if someone who just knew how to shot it would perform the test Hey, don't pick on him, he's a sales rep and not used to those kind of guns! He wasn't really preforming function tests, I just happened to have my camera on when they let him shoot it for the feel of the thing. :) |
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You guys at ATI are doing a great job - knowing the market/fulfilling needs, marketing, customer service, graphics and branding, communication, maintaining a presence on the discussion boards, etc. Looking forward to all the new products. Thank you very much! Call our bosses and tell them to give Christopher and I a raise! 
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| Bar-none you found a hell a niche market inside an overall market that rarely creates a whole new class of weapons such as ati has. Not to mention and hate to say but im a die hard bmw fan and thus have always noticed how damn well the germans still engineer and manf. the worlds best products....usually however u have to give up a testicle to obtain them, and ATI saves my testes all the while letting me have my childhood dream guns. |
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I agree with everyone on a great job listening to what the customers wanted. Will the MP5 carbine available in .40/10mm down the road or are the foreseeable plans to stick with 9mm? Will there be anything on the ATI site anytime soon? I would be in for a pre order.
Also are the prices posted on page 2 still what the prices will be or any change? From page 2 .223 rifle- $1249.00 .308 Rifle- $1299.00 9mm Pistol: $1849.00 9mm Rifle $1899.00 |
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Those prices were our ball parks from when we unveiled these guns at the NRA show. They may be changing.
Right now there are no ideas for future models yet, we have to get these ones first! The problem with these guns is that the HK versions are illegal to import, so, there are heavy internal design modifications that need to be made to the guns to make them not only vastly different than the original ban guns, but to make them comply with import laws. At this time, although we hope not, there is still the chance that ATF could call me up and say, 'no way on these rifles guys,'....they're real causal like that lol. And of course, then they need to sell well enough to warrant the expense of manufacturing and importation duties and tariffs. So one step at a time here. If the rifles get cleared and they're a hit, then we'll start looking at future models. |
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I agree with everyone on a great job listening to what the customers wanted. Will the MP5 carbine available in .40/10mm down the road or are the foreseeable plans to stick with 9mm? Will there be anything on the ATI site anytime soon? I would be in for a pre order. I would like to say yes they will be on the ATI site soon. I just this week added them to our physical catalog, so the website should be following soon after. We're still a very small staff here at ATI so sometimes it takes a bit to get everything updated and current. Please hang in there and before long the information on these guns, high resolution photos, and videos will all be available on the website! |
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Those prices were our ball parks from when we unveiled these guns at the NRA show. They may be changing. Right now there are no ideas for future models yet, we have to get these ones first! The problem with these guns is that the HK versions are illegal to import, so, there are heavy internal design modifications that need to be made to the guns to make them not only vastly different than the original ban guns, but to make them comply with import laws. At this time, although we hope not, there is still the chance that ATF could call me up and say, 'no way on these rifles guys,'....they're real causal like that lol. And of course, then they need to sell well enough to warrant the expense of manufacturing and importation duties and tariffs. So one step at a time here. If the rifles get cleared and they're a hit, then we'll start looking at future models. I don't know how I feel about this. I understand the legal need for this, so I'm not attempting to bash the company and their design decisions, but here's what I'm thinking. On one hand, I REALLY want an MP5 clone. True size, operation, compatibility with accessories is probably the biggest thing. I don't have a sear pack, but compatibility with that is another issue that needs to be addressed. As long as it works and is built externally like an MP5, unlike the GSG, I think it would probably scratch the MP5 itch I KNOW the GSG-5 wouldn't. Edit, on prices, a CA94 is about $1500, and it functions like a real HK and is interchangeable with their parts. Is $1800+ reasonable on a 9mm carbine that looks like but doesn't function like the real thing? |
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Those prices were our ball parks from when we unveiled these guns at the NRA show. They may be changing. Right now there are no ideas for future models yet, we have to get these ones first! The problem with these guns is that the HK versions are illegal to import, so, there are heavy internal design modifications that need to be made to the guns to make them not only vastly different than the original ban guns, but to make them comply with import laws. At this time, although we hope not, there is still the chance that ATF could call me up and say, 'no way on these rifles guys,'....they're real causal like that lol. And of course, then they need to sell well enough to warrant the expense of manufacturing and importation duties and tariffs. So one step at a time here. If the rifles get cleared and they're a hit, then we'll start looking at future models. Crap, so you have to make heavy design changes internally to import it? that doesn't sound good  The CA ones are identical clones and can use real HK parts. Plus they are only like 1400-1600 bucks. Hmmmm
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A the NRA show we had ball park MSRPs on them based on if we would be able to import them from the prototypes we submitted. Those prices were: .223 rifle- $1249.00 .308 Rifle- $1299.00 9mm Pistol: $1849.00 9mm Rifle $1899.00 Now bear in mind that these were ball park prices and are absolutely not set in stone this early in the game. All is proceeding well though in regards to the T&E with the ATF. I'll keep you posted as these develop over the next few months. Priced right out of the market. I'd be interested in a 9mm one if the quality is A LOT better than my old GSG-5 (sold it b/c it was, quite frankly, junk) & is priced less than the current GSG-5s out there |
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Quoted: Quoted: A the NRA show we had ball park MSRPs on them based on if we would be able to import them from the prototypes we submitted. Those prices were: .223 rifle- $1249.00 .308 Rifle- $1299.00 9mm Pistol: $1849.00 9mm Rifle $1899.00 Now bear in mind that these were ball park prices and are absolutely not set in stone this early in the game. All is proceeding well though in regards to the T&E with the ATF. I'll keep you posted as these develop over the next few months. Priced right out of the market. I'd be interested in a 9mm one if the quality is A LOT better than my old GSG-5 (sold it b/c it was, quite frankly, junk) & is priced less than the current GSG-5s out there No way you will be getting a 9mm for less than an identical .22 |
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Those prices were our ball parks from when we unveiled these guns at the NRA show. They may be changing. Right now there are no ideas for future models yet, we have to get these ones first! The problem with these guns is that the HK versions are illegal to import, so, there are heavy internal design modifications that need to be made to the guns to make them not only vastly different than the original ban guns, but to make them comply with import laws. At this time, although we hope not, there is still the chance that ATF could call me up and say, 'no way on these rifles guys,'....they're real causal like that lol. And of course, then they need to sell well enough to warrant the expense of manufacturing and importation duties and tariffs. So one step at a time here. If the rifles get cleared and they're a hit, then we'll start looking at future models. Crap, so you have to make heavy design changes internally to import it? that doesn't sound good The CA ones are identical clones and can use real HK parts. Plus they are only like 1400-1600 bucks. Hmmmmwasn't HK suing the clone builders? |
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A the NRA show we had ball park MSRPs on them based on if we would be able to import them from the prototypes we submitted. Those prices were: .223 rifle- $1249.00 .308 Rifle- $1299.00 9mm Pistol: $1849.00 9mm Rifle $1899.00 Now bear in mind that these were ball park prices and are absolutely not set in stone this early in the game. All is proceeding well though in regards to the T&E with the ATF. I'll keep you posted as these develop over the next few months. Priced right out of the market. I'd be interested in a 9mm one if the quality is A LOT better than my old GSG-5 (sold it b/c it was, quite frankly, junk) & is priced less than the current GSG-5s out there No way you will be getting a 9mm for less than an identical .22 If it's IDENTICAL to the .22 then I don't want it. The quality of the .22 GSG-5 leaves A LOT to be desired. Furthermore, why would you price it double, or more, the cost of the CX4 STorm which has already proven to be an awesome carbine? |
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Those prices were our ball parks from when we unveiled these guns at the NRA show. They may be changing. Right now there are no ideas for future models yet, we have to get these ones first! The problem with these guns is that the HK versions are illegal to import, so, there are heavy internal design modifications that need to be made to the guns to make them not only vastly different than the original ban guns, but to make them comply with import laws. At this time, although we hope not, there is still the chance that ATF could call me up and say, 'no way on these rifles guys,'....they're real causal like that lol. And of course, then they need to sell well enough to warrant the expense of manufacturing and importation duties and tariffs. So one step at a time here. If the rifles get cleared and they're a hit, then we'll start looking at future models. Crap, so you have to make heavy design changes internally to import it? that doesn't sound good The CA ones are identical clones and can use real HK parts. Plus they are only like 1400-1600 bucks. Hmmmmwasn't HK suing the clone builders? Yeah from what I heard I assume they already did. Not that there were that many builders to start with. CA appears to still be making an MP5 clone. My local gun shop seems to always be getting them in and currently has at least 4 instock and you see them all over gunbroker. I hope they don't go away they are the only ones left making a true clone. I've shot a rental one before and it ran great. Most people who own them seem to like them, while the bad reviews always seem to come from ppl who have a friend who knows a guy that owns one..... Funny how that always seems to work out  My next gun purchase is def going to be one of these they seem like a good comprimise....wish I had the money to buy a german parts kit and a flat and have one custom built but oh well
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A the NRA show we had ball park MSRPs on them based on if we would be able to import them from the prototypes we submitted. Those prices were: .223 rifle- $1249.00 .308 Rifle- $1299.00 9mm Pistol: $1849.00 9mm Rifle $1899.00 Now bear in mind that these were ball park prices and are absolutely not set in stone this early in the game. All is proceeding well though in regards to the T&E with the ATF. I'll keep you posted as these develop over the next few months. Priced right out of the market. I'd be interested in a 9mm one if the quality is A LOT better than my old GSG-5 (sold it b/c it was, quite frankly, junk) & is priced less than the current GSG-5s out there No way you will be getting a 9mm for less than an identical .22 If it's IDENTICAL to the .22 then I don't want it. The quality of the .22 GSG-5 leaves A LOT to be desired. Furthermore, why would you price it double, or more, the cost of the CX4 STorm which has already proven to be an awesome carbine? guys want the SWAT/MIL gun...or even a decent clone.....and will pay for it |
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A the NRA show we had ball park MSRPs on them based on if we would be able to import them from the prototypes we submitted. Those prices were: .223 rifle- $1249.00 .308 Rifle- $1299.00 9mm Pistol: $1849.00 9mm Rifle $1899.00 Now bear in mind that these were ball park prices and are absolutely not set in stone this early in the game. All is proceeding well though in regards to the T&E with the ATF. I'll keep you posted as these develop over the next few months. Priced right out of the market. I'd be interested in a 9mm one if the quality is A LOT better than my old GSG-5 (sold it b/c it was, quite frankly, junk) & is priced less than the current GSG-5s out there No way you will be getting a 9mm for less than an identical .22 If it's IDENTICAL to the .22 then I don't want it. The quality of the .22 GSG-5 leaves A LOT to be desired. Furthermore, why would you price it double, or more, the cost of the CX4 STorm which has already proven to be an awesome carbine? guys want the SWAT/MIL gun...or even a decent clone.....and will pay for it A fool & his $ are soon parted |
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Well, I have no idea how to embed my youtube video on the forum page here, so click HERE to see a video. It's short but sweet, and exactly what you guys are talking about. This was shot 2 days ago at an ATI range test. I see a paddle mag release in that video. Can you confirm that the production guns have the paddle release? Any more details on what the design changes are? Just how radical are the changes? They are still roller locked liked the originals I assume? Do they still use HK mags? Do ANY HK parts still fit (stocks, bolts, carriers, handguards, etc...)? Thanks |
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I see a paddle mag release in that video. Can you confirm that the production guns have the paddle release? Any more details on what the design changes are? Just how radical are the changes? They are still roller locked liked the originals I assume? Do they still use HK mags? Do ANY HK parts still fit (stocks, bolts, carriers, handguards, etc...)?
hI, I can confirm the paddle release as it is obvious in the video. As for other changes from the original design and the further questions you have, at this time I cannot answer these questions. Once we have our first shipment in the country and released for sale to distributors, we will then be able to provide more technical details about these guns. We will also be sending them to writers for reviews for popular gun magazines with a proper technical specifications. Hang in there guys. |
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Those prices were our ball parks from when we unveiled these guns at the NRA show. They may be changing. Right now there are no ideas for future models yet, we have to get these ones first! The problem with these guns is that the HK versions are illegal to import, so, there are heavy internal design modifications that need to be made to the guns to make them not only vastly different than the original ban guns, but to make them comply with import laws. At this time, although we hope not, there is still the chance that ATF could call me up and say, 'no way on these rifles guys,'....they're real causal like that lol. And of course, then they need to sell well enough to warrant the expense of manufacturing and importation duties and tariffs. So one step at a time here. If the rifles get cleared and they're a hit, then we'll start looking at future models. Crap, so you have to make heavy design changes internally to import it? that doesn't sound good The CA ones are identical clones and can use real HK parts. Plus they are only like 1400-1600 bucks. Hmmmmwasn't HK suing the clone builders? Yeah from what I heard I assume they already did. Not that there were that many builders to start with. CA appears to still be making an MP5 clone. My local gun shop seems to always be getting them in and currently has at least 4 instock and you see them all over gunbroker. I hope they don't go away they are the only ones left making a true clone. I know of several others, mainly small shops. They're just being quiet about it and don't advertise as they can't afford to fight a frivolous HK trade dress lawsuit. |
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Those prices were our ball parks from when we unveiled these guns at the NRA show. They may be changing. Right now there are no ideas for future models yet, we have to get these ones first! The problem with these guns is that the HK versions are illegal to import, so, there are heavy internal design modifications that need to be made to the guns to make them not only vastly different than the original ban guns, but to make them comply with import laws. At this time, although we hope not, there is still the chance that ATF could call me up and say, 'no way on these rifles guys,'....they're real causal like that lol. And of course, then they need to sell well enough to warrant the expense of manufacturing and importation duties and tariffs. So one step at a time here. If the rifles get cleared and they're a hit, then we'll start looking at future models. Crap, so you have to make heavy design changes internally to import it? that doesn't sound good The CA ones are identical clones and can use real HK parts. Plus they are only like 1400-1600 bucks. Hmmmmwasn't HK suing the clone builders? Yeah from what I heard I assume they already did. Not that there were that many builders to start with. CA appears to still be making an MP5 clone. My local gun shop seems to always be getting them in and currently has at least 4 instock and you see them all over gunbroker. I hope they don't go away they are the only ones left making a true clone. I know of several others, mainly small shops. They're just being quiet about it and don't advertise as they can't afford to fight a frivolous HK trade dress lawsuit. I thought those smaller shops you had to send in a parts kit and flat for them to build it? I didn't know anyone else had the tooling needed to produce a complete rifle? If so thats good, the more the better. |
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http://sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=221037
Are these the same guns ATI is importing? What internal mods did you guys have to do? 
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Can someone from ATI answer whether or not these guns can be used with a sear pack? It's not really clear either way. All the sources which I've heard from doesn't know right now. Maybe we'll soon know. Hopefully there will soon be a good clone on the market. |
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A the NRA show we had ball park MSRPs on them based on if we would be able to import them from the prototypes we submitted. Those prices were: .223 rifle- $1249.00 .308 Rifle- $1299.00 9mm Pistol: $1849.00 9mm Rifle $1899.00 Now bear in mind that these were ball park prices and are absolutely not set in stone this early in the game. All is proceeding well though in regards to the T&E with the ATF. I'll keep you posted as these develop over the next few months. Damn, I thought the prices would be reverse of that. I'm all over that .223 if and when it comes out!!! |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Any new news on ATI's mp5k 9mm? (Page 2 of 3)
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