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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 77gr SMK is the gold standard for 223 precision loads, but what about Barnes Matchburners? (Page 3 of 4)
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Quoted: I might order 1,000 of those - even if they're not as accurate as the SMK's, they would make a good SHTF round and the price is really good for a premium bullet. |
Got a small 77gr match burner ladder loaded with MP518. OAL is pretty consistent. Aimed for 2.25 and once I set my Lee die in a cheap Lee single stage they varied from 2.45 to 2.252 or so. WAY more consistent than the PPU 75gr I loaded years ago. Once I decide on a load they'll get run on a Hornady LNL AP with Hornady dies. 2.25 did put the mouth of the case right at mid-cannelure. Decided not to crimp. Used CCI #41 primers. I'll run 5 of each load through my 12.5" and 5 through my 16". Hopefully I'll get to test them in the next couple of weeks.  |
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Quoted: Got a small 77gr match burner ladder loaded with MP518. OAL is pretty consistent. Aimed for 2.25 and once I set my Lee die in a cheap Lee single stage they varied from 2.45 to 2.252 or so. WAY more consistent than the PPU 75gr I loaded years ago. Once I decide on a load they'll get run on a Hornady LNL AP with Hornady dies. 2.25 did put the mouth of the case right at mid-cannelure. Decided not to crimp. Used CCI #41 primers. I'll run 5 of each load through my 12.5" and 5 through my 16". Hopefully I'll get to test them in the next couple of weeks. https://i.imgur.com/Ix3TDyJ.jpeg Nice. What I started doing for setting initial seating depth is to sort bullets by length (just a sample) and then use the average ones to seat and adjust to my desired COAL. |
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Quoted: Nice. What I started doing for setting initial seating depth is to sort bullets by length (just a sample) and then use the average ones to seat and adjust to my desired COAL. |
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Quoted: Makes sense. With the PPU I loaded 20 or 30 with the first one or two adjusted to 2.25, then took the longest and set it to 2.26. They ranged from 2.235 to 2.26. They weren't advertised as blems or anything either. It was like a 2.5" round on average, but it worked for plinking, 2-gun, and cola warrior. Few bullets measure to a consistent length. Assuming you're using quality bullets, measuring bast to ogive using a Hornady (or similar) bullet comparator should show they're all the same length for that dimension. |
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Quoted: Few bullets measure to a consistent length. Assuming you're using quality bullets, measuring bast to ogive using a Hornady (or similar) bullet comparator should show they're all the same length for that dimension. Added to my load ladder with these. Shooter's World Tactical Rifle at 23, 23.2, 23.4, and 23.6. Only did 5 of each as this would be a potential powder to use after I go through the 8# of MP518, assuming it works well. I have 8# of it and 8# of H335, but I've got 2k Blem 55gr slated for the H335. |
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Quoted: Got a small 77gr match burner ladder loaded with MP518. OAL is pretty consistent. Aimed for 2.25 and once I set my Lee die in a cheap Lee single stage they varied from 2.45 to 2.252 or so. WAY more consistent than the PPU 75gr I loaded years ago. Once I decide on a load they'll get run on a Hornady LNL AP with Hornady dies. 2.25 did put the mouth of the case right at mid-cannelure. Decided not to crimp. Used CCI #41 primers. I'll run 5 of each load through my 12.5" and 5 through my 16". Hopefully I'll get to test them in the next couple of weeks. https://i.imgur.com/Ix3TDyJ.jpeg The tips of those look abused. Did they come out of the box looking like that? |
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I would disagree that 77gr SMK is the gold standard for 223 precision loads. If you are looking for precision at shorter ranges, lighter flat-base bullets are more intrinsically accurate. This is what competition shooters are typically using up to say 300 yards. At extended ranges, longer bullets like the 80gr Sierra and others dominate in competition. 77gr is the champion of tacticool though. |
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Quoted: I would disagree that 77gr SMK is the gold standard for 223 precision loads. If you are looking for precision at shorter ranges, lighter flat-base bullets are more intrinsically accurate. This is what competition shooters are typically using up to say 300 yards. At extended ranges, longer bullets like the 80gr Sierra and others dominate in competition. 77gr is the champion of tacticool though. Do the 80 grains feed from a magazine? |
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Quoted: I would disagree that 77gr SMK is the gold standard for 223 precision loads. If you are looking for precision at shorter ranges, lighter flat-base bullets are more intrinsically accurate. This is what competition shooters are typically using up to say 300 yards. At extended ranges, longer bullets like the 80gr Sierra and others dominate in competition. 77gr is the champion of tacticool though. Yes there are other bullets that can be very accurate. But which competition shooters are you referring to? Because several hundred thousand 77SMK bullets have been shot by Service Rifle shooters at this point. Because they have a very good BC and are routinely very accurate. I'm not the OP but I doubt he is thinking of shooting at extended ranges...............But yes the 80SMK is great at 600yds+.............. it needs to be single fed though. |
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Nobody (I know) shoots 52/53 grain bullets across the course at 200/300 yards. I know a lot of people that will shoot them on 100-yard reduced course events. The overwhelming majority of NRA/CMP shooters are using 69/75/77 grain bullets at 200/300 yards, and 80's at 600. I only met one person shooting 77's at 600, and he did so because they grouped better in his particular rifle. I haven't been very active in the last ten years, but I doubt any of this has changed. I shoot 69's at 200/300 because I have a lot of them, and the B.C. is a wash at these ranges because you can push the 69's 100 to 150 fps faster than 77's. The 77's shine as an all-purpose load because they fit in a magazine and drift less at longer ranges than lighter options. 200/300 is not "longer ranges". |
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Quoted: Got a small 77gr match burner ladder loaded with MP518. OAL is pretty consistent. Aimed for 2.25 and once I set my Lee die in a cheap Lee single stage they varied from 2.45 to 2.252 or so. WAY more consistent than the PPU 75gr I loaded years ago. Once I decide on a load they'll get run on a Hornady LNL AP with Hornady dies. 2.25 did put the mouth of the case right at mid-cannelure. Decided not to crimp. Used CCI #41 primers. I'll run 5 of each load through my 12.5" and 5 through my 16". Hopefully I'll get to test them in the next couple of weeks. https://i.imgur.com/Ix3TDyJ.jpeg |
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Quoted: Be interesting to see how hornady’s new bulk pack 69& 77 gr stack up when they hit the market. Are you talking about these ? https://www.hornady.com/bullets/aeromatch# |
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THose are the same bullets AAC is loading in their ammo. |
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Quoted: Tested these today. Velocities and group sizes not what I hoped for. Best group was 1.6", next best was 1.8", everything else was 2"-2.5". No pressure signs, so I'm going to push it up a little as well as try actual StaBALL Match and a Shooter's World Tactical Rifle ladder I loaded. Quoted: Quoted: Got a small 77gr match burner ladder loaded with MP518. OAL is pretty consistent. Aimed for 2.25 and once I set my Lee die in a cheap Lee single stage they varied from 2.45 to 2.252 or so. WAY more consistent than the PPU 75gr I loaded years ago. Once I decide on a load they'll get run on a Hornady LNL AP with Hornady dies. 2.25 did put the mouth of the case right at mid-cannelure. Decided not to crimp. Used CCI #41 primers. I'll run 5 of each load through my 12.5" and 5 through my 16". Hopefully I'll get to test them in the next couple of weeks. https://i.imgur.com/Ix3TDyJ.jpeg |
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Yes it is..... I missed this earlier when you asked ... I haven't looked at prices lately but first ones i saw for sale were basically identical to smk. |
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Quoted: You don’t need to tell me anything as I’ve got a great load for the 77 TMK, it just took a little more work than I expected. I think there are other bullets that are easier to find accurate loads with, and most here will agree with me. I’d bet $5 he finds some great loads with the 69 and 52 SMK without trying very hard! -ZA Curious what your load is? |
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Quoted: Using LC or PMC brass, 23.8 gr XBR8208 + REM 7.5 + 77 TMK. COL = 2.245-2.250” If using Winchester brass, use 23.7 gr. Velocity is about 2750 fps out of a 20”, SD’s are around 10. This is almost a clone of the Black Hills loading, shoots great in all my rifles, exceptional in several. I’m working on finding an alternate, more available powder to use. N540 might be the ticket, it’s showed some promise in my initial testing. |
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Quoted: Using LC or PMC brass, 23.8 gr XBR8208 + REM 7.5 + 77 TMK. COL = 2.245-2.250" If using Winchester brass, use 23.7 gr. Velocity is about 2750 fps out of a 20", SD's are around 10. This is almost a clone of the Black Hills loading, shoots great in all my rifles, exceptional in several. I'm working on finding an alternate, more available powder to use. N540 might be the ticket, it's showed some promise in my initial testing. My accuracy load is 25.1gr of MP518 for right at 2750 out of a 20" AR also. I'm trying to find something a little more spicy that shoots well for a SHTF load. Weird data point: My 18" WOA barrel shoots 100-130fps slower than my 20" barrel. I can't believe it's that much. |
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Quoted: 77 SMK is the gold standard. Hornady 75's are underrated, they are just as good for me. I am underwhelmed by the 77 SMK. I do shoot 80 SMK's because they are better at extended range than the 75 HPBT-M, however, they are a specialty bullet that is single load only. Hornady's 75 gr HPBT-M bullet is my benchmark - the one against which all others get compared. |
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Quoted: My accuracy load is 25.1gr of MP518 for right at 2750 out of a 20" AR also. I'm trying to find something a little more spicy that shoots well for a SHTF load. Weird data point: My 18" WOA barrel shoots 100-130fps slower than my 20" barrel. I can't believe it's that much. I should go back and restest Staball Match with the 77 TMK knowing what I know now. -ZA |
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I got a new 16" barrel from Patriot Valley Arms and ran several Match Burner loads through it. I started by shooting about 120 rounds of my RMR 69gr load through it yesterday. Managed a 9-shot .936" group with it (mixed brass), and today shot a 5-shot .646" group of 69gr Federal Gold Medal Match. Barrel is more capable than me and I am happy so far. My eyes strain quickly and I am shooting in a indoor/underground range, so mirage off my suppressor seems to mess with me too. I also shot some AAC 77gr to try and get a baseline. I shot 2 5-round groups l. First group average 1.356" and the second averaged 1.757". Pretty sure I had a flyer on that group. 5-round average velocity was 2,603.8 FPS with an ES of 41.4 FPS and SD of 14.8 FPS. All loads are in Lake City brass with CCI#41 primers and an OAL of 2.25". The Garmin was acting up and only captured 1 round a couple times. I also forgot to start it a time or two and only captured 3 rounds on a couple. All groups were 5-rounds. Shooter's World Tactical Rifle 23gr - 3 rounds captured 1.486" - 2,670.6 FPS - ES 4.7 - SD 2.0 23.2gr - 1 round captured 1.765" - 2,709.6 FPS 23.4gr - 3 rounds captured 1.446" - 2,708.9 FPS - ES 30.9 - SD 12.6 23.6gr - 5 rounds captured 1.158" (4 rounds) 2.9" (5 rounds) - 2,719 FPS - ES 40.4 - SD 14.2 MP518 25.3gr - 1 round captured .949" - 2,621 FPS 25.6gr - 5 rounds captured 1.642" - 2,663 FPS - ES 28.9 - SD 11.3 25.8gr - 3 rounds captured 1.133" - 2,701 FPS - ES 58.6 - SD 26.1 Staball Match 25gr - 4 rounds captured 1.644" - 2,659.9 FPS - ES 42.9 - SD 16.5 25.2gr - 5 rounds captured 1.729" - 2,658.8 FPS - ES 108.3 - SD 37.2 I think I'm going to push MP518 a touch higher as well as load up some more at 25.3gr and 25.8gr to see if those are consistent. I might revisit Staball Match down the road. Not sure if I want to use it or Tactical Rifle for the 2k rounds after the MP518. |
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Dang - 25.8gr of MP518 with a 77gr bullet is WAY up there. I haven't gone above 25.4, although there MIGHT be more headroom - I really didn't want to push it though. Hornady 5.56 TAP is running right about 2700fps out of a 16" barrel, which is already pretty spicy. My accuracy load in my 20" WOA barrel is 25.1gr of MP518 with a 77gr SMK. I need to upload some of my data on the 77gr MBs with cannelure, but they shoot significantly worse for me. |
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Quoted: Dang - 25.8gr of MP518 with a 77gr bullet is WAY up there. I haven't gone above 25.4, although there MIGHT be more headroom - I really didn't want to push it though. Hornady 5.56 TAP is running right about 2700fps out of a 16" barrel, which is already pretty spicy. My accuracy load in my 20" WOA barrel is 25.1gr of MP518 with a 77gr SMK. I need to upload some of my data on the 77gr MBs with cannelure, but they shoot significantly worse for me.  My ultimate goal is to load a cheap-ish 77gr load that will be 1.5" +/- in my Geissele barrels and 1" +/- from the PVA barrel. Not sure it'll happen, but I have 4k of the MBs so I'll just move forward at some point. 26.2gr MP518 Attached File Attached File Attached File ETA: I think I'm going to try 25.3 again. Might try your 25.1 as well. |
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20" WOA Predator upper, 100 yards 20" WOA Predator upper, 100 yards, 77gr Barnes MB w/cannelure, MP518 25.1gr MP518: High: 2729.1, Low: 2710.5, ES: 18.6, Avg: 2721.5, SD:7.8, 1.146 MOA, 0.404 MOA mean radius 25.2gr MP518: High: 2748.3, Low: 2686.6, ES: 61.7, Avg: 2718.9, SD: 20.9, 1.015 MOA, 0.400 MOA mean radius 20" WOA Predator upper, 100 yards, 77gr Barnes MB w/cannelure, TAC: 24.0gr TAC: High: 2784.3, Low: 2720.9, ES: 63.4, Avg: 2754.6, SD: 25.8, 1.057 MOA, 0.308 MOA mean radius 24.5gr TAC: High: 2843.4, Low: 2745.2, ES: 98.2, Avg: 2795.3, SD: 27.0, 1.529 MOA, 0.481 MOA mean radius 16" ATI M4 upper, 77gr Barnes MB w/cannelure, TAC 24.5gr TAC: High: 2718, Low: 2637, ES: 81, Avg: 2696, SD: 26, no group size measured Groups with TAC really open up at the higher charge weights too... |
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Quoted: 20" WOA Predator upper, 100 yards 20" WOA Predator upper, 100 yards, 77gr Barnes MB w/cannelure, MP518 25.1gr MP518: High: 2729.1, Low: 2710.5, ES: 18.6, Avg: 2721.5, SD:7.8, 1.146 MOA, 0.404 MOA mean radius 25.2gr MP518: High: 2748.3, Low: 2686.6, ES: 61.7, Avg: 2718.9, SD: 20.9, 1.015 MOA, 0.400 MOA mean radius 20" WOA Predator upper, 100 yards, 77gr Barnes MB w/cannelure, TAC: 24.0gr TAC: High: 2784.3, Low: 2720.9, ES: 63.4, Avg: 2754.6, SD: 25.8, 1.057 MOA, 0.308 MOA mean radius 24.5gr TAC: High: 2843.4, Low: 2745.2, ES: 98.2, Avg: 2795.3, SD: 27.0, 1.529 MOA, 0.481 MOA mean radius 16" ATI M4 upper, 77gr Barnes MB w/cannelure, TAC 24.5gr TAC: High: 2718, Low: 2637, ES: 81, Avg: 2696, SD: 26, no group size measured Groups with TAC really open up at the higher charge weights too... Try 23.4-23.5 TAC |
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I tried MP518 at 25.1 and 25.3 last night as well as 22.8 of Shooter's World Tactical Rifle. Also tried some more AAC 77gr OTM as well as a box of AAC 77gr SMK. The SMK was consistently 1.014-1.34". My best AAC OTM group was .936", but 1.5" to 2" was common. I think this Patriot Valley Arms barrel may prefer 69gr bullets as FGMM shot the best and my RMR 69gr mixed brass loads consistently shoots .9"-1.3" or so. That said, I think a couple things are going on with the Barnes. 1) I am just not a good group shooter. I have known that for a while, but I am not consistent. 2) I think the Barnes is not going to get to 1" consistently. I think a 1.3"-1.5" load for me with a good barrel will be doable (with my powders on hand). I will try 25.1, 25.2, and 25.3 of MP518 again after cola warrior northwest next weekend and just settle on one of them. I will then test it in my Geissele 10.3" and 12.5" barrels as well as Spike's/FN 11.5" barrel. I have 4K of these bullets and 8# each of H335, Shooter's World Tactical Rifle, MP518, and StaBall Match. I doubt I will want to try another powder unless pricing and availability changes and I do it after running through 2K bullets with the MP518. I should try StaBall Match again and maybe drop the loads a little from 25 and 25.2 just to see what happens. |
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Quoted: I just got 1000 of the Match Burners in this week, looking forward to comparing them against my few leftover SMKs. I've shot ~250 of them so far. Current load is LC brass, Rem 7.5, 25.2gr AA2520, loaded to about 2.25". Running 2600fps from a 16" My impression is... if I'm shooting 10rd groups, 9/10 are about as accurate as 77SMKs, but then that 10th/"flyer" tends to be worse. So on average the group ES is probably going to be worse, but the radius SD is probably going to be nearly the same, if that makes sense. I also had to favor slightly high last weekend at 300-600yd using the only BC number I could find, the G1 number supplied by Barnes with no velocity reference, plugged into a basic calculator. I'm planning to compare that data I was using to the AB stuff as soon as I can. Still, for my purposes, they are not going to be what is holding me back, so if I need bullets again and can get them for the same price as last time, I would probably buy them again; they were way cheaper than what I've ever paid for 77gr SMKs. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 77gr SMK is the gold standard for 223 precision loads, but what about Barnes Matchburners? (Page 3 of 4)
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