Armory Sponsor
.303 reloading **fireforming results pg 4** (Page 2 of 2)
|
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
I don't disagree with your advice at all but none of my Bullseye, Unique, or 2400 loads are "position sensitive". I have fired hundreds of 7.62x54R loaded with only 6gr of bullseye and have never had a single issue. The same goes for the other 3 powders I listed. I also agree if the OP is not sure he should definitely go the safe rout. Trail Boss is another that is safe to use. OP, If you load the pistol bullets, load them to the canalure. I doubt they will even come close to the lands but you can check that easy enough. "position sensitive" is why they use COW, dacron fillers, toilet paper and other methods to hold the powder next to the primer in the rear of the case. These methods are explained in reloading manuals and you can't get uniformity if one shot has the powder laying next to the primer and the next is in the front of the case. This can be tested by simply tilting the cartridge cases up and down and watching for vertical stringing with the position of the powder in the case. Second, the OP has already used the words "confused" and "head hurts" from all the information he has been given and is having information overload. I listed three powders to use to keep things simple, SR4759, Trail Boss and 4895, all of which can not be double charged with loads at approximately 80% of case capacity. (load density) KISS = keep it simple stupid Just curious, could I use IMR 4895 and the pistol bullets? reduced charge of course... |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
if your head hurts now, just wait until you start learning to properly fit enfield wood. Hang in there. You are almost fireformed and ready to start loading for it. Soon it will be worth all your effort.  bigedp51 is giving you first rate advise. Listen to him. I know enough to know he knows what he is talking about. Best of luck dude! |
|
Originally Posted By jnk556: Originally Posted By bigedp51: Originally Posted By Motor1: I don't disagree with your advice at all but none of my Bullseye, Unique, or 2400 loads are "position sensitive". I have fired hundreds of 7.62x54R loaded with only 6gr of bullseye and have never had a single issue. The same goes for the other 3 powders I listed. I also agree if the OP is not sure he should definitely go the safe rout. Trail Boss is another that is safe to use. OP, If you load the pistol bullets, load them to the canalure. I doubt they will even come close to the lands but you can check that easy enough. "position sensitive" is why they use COW, dacron fillers, toilet paper and other methods to hold the powder next to the primer in the rear of the case. These methods are explained in reloading manuals and you can't get uniformity if one shot has the powder laying next to the primer and the next is in the front of the case. This can be tested by simply tilting the cartridge cases up and down and watching for vertical stringing with the position of the powder in the case. Second, the OP has already used the words "confused" and "head hurts" from all the information he has been given and is having information overload. I listed three powders to use to keep things simple, SR4759, Trail Boss and 4895, all of which can not be double charged with loads at approximately 80% of case capacity. (load density) KISS = keep it simple stupid Just curious, could I use IMR 4895 and the pistol bullets? reduced charge of course... You probably could, but since you have the unique, I'd just use that. |
|
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Just curious, could I use IMR 4895 and the pistol bullets? reduced charge of course... jnk556 I have considerable experience with the Enfield rifle and considerable is spelled with a capital "C". 95% of all Enfield books and manuals you find on the internet were put there by me for the benefit of other Enfield owners. The three powder I listed are the safest powders to use for reduced loads in any rifle and 4895 is one of them. If you wish you can just use the starting load of 4895 (or any powder) to form your cases using the o-ring method. You want two things when fire forming .303 cases........ 1. Do not let the case stretch on the first firing in the base web area. (use the o-ring) 2. On the second firing make sure the .303 case is headspacing on the shoulder of the case and NOT the rim as this will extend case life. (neck size only) Also note that the hotter the load the sharper the case will fill out when fired, meaning take on the shape of the chamber. With low pressure loads the cases will not have sharply filled out case corner angles. Below, a .303 British case fire formed and headspacing on the shoulder of the case and not the rim. 
|
|
Originally Posted By Morning_Wood:
if your head hurts now, just wait until you start learning to properly fit enfield wood. Hang in there. You are almost fireformed and ready to start loading for it. Soon it will be worth all your effort. bigedp51 is giving you first rate advise. Listen to him. I know enough to know he knows what he is talking about.
Here is a little site that will give you a little detail on fitting new wood. This is where I started and these are the first three I did. I've done five more since the last one and I haven't updated since April. You will probably ask "whats all this bout wood when all I want to do is form some brass" Well, my friend, The wood is where your accuracy is in an Enfield. A properly fitted forestock will make all the difference in the world. There is a lot more to fitting Enfield wood that I mention there, I posted this little site mostly for the guys I work with. I also reload for all my enfields. http://www.appdigital.com Best of luck dude! ETA: Don't even try to figure Enfield #3 out. If you head hurts now, it will explode if you try to figure that one out. It's the one that the barrel fell off of as soon as I got it home. Someone tried to fit a barrel without having a clue. I had to do some non-typical procedures to get it to work, but it really turned out as a nice shooter. Did someone say something about bedding an Enfield rifle and figuring out a No.3. 
|
|
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Just curious, could I use IMR 4895 and the pistol bullets? reduced charge of course... jnk556 I have considerable experience with the Enfield rifle and considerable is spelled with a capital "C". 95% of all Enfield books and manuals you find on the internet were put there by me for the benefit of other Enfield owners. The three powder I listed are the safest powders to use for reduced loads in any rifle and 4895 is one of them. If you wish you can just use the starting load of 4895 (or any powder) to form your cases using the o-ring method. You want two things when fire forming .303 cases........ 1. Do not let the case stretch on the first firing in the base web area. (use the o-ring) 2. On the second firing make sure the .303 case is headspacing on the shoulder of the case and NOT the rim as this will extend case life. (neck size only) Also note that the hotter the load the sharper the case will fill out when fired, meaning take on the shape of the chamber. With low pressure loads the cases will not have sharply filled out case corner angles. Below, a .303 British case fire formed and headspacing on the shoulder of the case and not the rim. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fireformed-zeroheadspace.jpg I think I've got the jist of things now, I'm going to go with some Unique loads, and I may also work on some 4895 loads with the pistol bullets. I have some data for 125gr bullets, I may look around for some 100gr data, so I may just do the 60% rule and cut those down and work something up. I have 120rnds of hotshot brass, so I have a bit of brass to play with.... And of course I'll use the o-rings on all of them
|
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By bigedp51: I wish you would make those documents either bigger, or available for download. I've got most of the info, but not the official documents.Originally Posted By Morning_Wood: if your head hurts now, just wait until you start learning to properly fit enfield wood. Hang in there. You are almost fireformed and ready to start loading for it. Soon it will be worth all your effort. bigedp51 is giving you first rate advise. Listen to him. I know enough to know he knows what he is talking about. Here is a little site that will give you a little detail on fitting new wood. This is where I started and these are the first three I did. I've done five more since the last one and I haven't updated since April. You will probably ask "whats all this bout wood when all I want to do is form some brass" Well, my friend, The wood is where your accuracy is in an Enfield. A properly fitted forestock will make all the difference in the world. There is a lot more to fitting Enfield wood that I mention there, I posted this little site mostly for the guys I work with. I also reload for all my enfields. http://www.appdigital.com Best of luck dude! ETA: Don't even try to figure Enfield #3 out. If you head hurts now, it will explode if you try to figure that one out. It's the one that the barrel fell off of as soon as I got it home. Someone tried to fit a barrel without having a clue. I had to do some non-typical procedures to get it to work, but it really turned out as a nice shooter. Did someone say something about bedding an Enfield rifle and figuring out a No.3. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/bedding.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/drawsarea-b.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP2020.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP2022.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP2023.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Image15.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Image16.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Image17.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/SAID2058b.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/SAID2059b.jpg |
|
Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me.
If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By jnk 556:
Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me. If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... Oh crap. I use both Speer and Hornady 100gr short jackets for .308 plinker loads and have ran into the same problem with the Hornady. The Speer bullet has a small chamfer at the bottom but the Hornady is flat. Since I also load cast bullets though I have a .308 expander (bell mouth) die. I put a very small bell mouth on the case and they start and seat nicely. I keep the bell mouth as small as possible and use the seat/crimp die to remove most of it then get the rest with a Lee FCD. Lee makes a universal bell mouth die for rifle calibers. It don't take much and for what you are doing (fire forming) you may not even have to worry about removing the small flair. If they will chamber the pressure of fire forming will remove the flair. I know this is another tool but it's cheap. Your idea about using the 150's will work too. Maybe you can come back to the pistol bullet and Unique thing later. As I said in a earlier post, once you start shooting those "plinker" loads you will love them. |
|
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk 556:
Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me. If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... Oh crap. I use both Speer and Hornady 100gr short jackets for .308 plinker loads and have ran into the same problem with the Hornady. The Speer bullet has a small chamfer at the bottom but the Hornady is flat. Since I also load cast bullets though I have a .308 expander (bell mouth) die. I put a very small bell mouth on the case and they start and seat nicely. I keep the bell mouth as small as possible and use the seat/crimp die to remove most of it then get the rest with a Lee FCD. Lee makes a universal bell mouth die for rifle calibers. It don't take much and for what you are doing (fire forming) you may not even have to worry about removing the small flair. If they will chamber the pressure of fire forming will remove the flair. I know this is another tool but it's cheap. Your idea about using the 150's will work too. Maybe you can come back to the pistol bullet and Unique thing later. As I said in a earlier post, once you start shooting those "plinker" loads you will love them. Yeah, I'll play with it some more, but those Hornady bullets are a bitch to line up strait. I took my deburr tool, and tried to put a bit of a flair on the mouth, and that seemed to help a bit, but not much. Hell the 150grs are a bitch to hold still till you get them in the die as well, but I did seat up a 150gr dummy that worked well. I don't have a LEE crimp die for a .303, I only have the deluxe set (neck, FL, and seating) but I do have crimp die for 7.7 Jap, same neck size ain't it?? would that work?? nope 
Is this the bell mouth die you speak of http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die I need to make a order from Midway, so ordering it isn't a huge deal if I have too.... |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk 556:
Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me. If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... Oh crap. I use both Speer and Hornady 100gr short jackets for .308 plinker loads and have ran into the same problem with the Hornady. The Speer bullet has a small chamfer at the bottom but the Hornady is flat. Since I also load cast bullets though I have a .308 expander (bell mouth) die. I put a very small bell mouth on the case and they start and seat nicely. I keep the bell mouth as small as possible and use the seat/crimp die to remove most of it then get the rest with a Lee FCD. Lee makes a universal bell mouth die for rifle calibers. It don't take much and for what you are doing (fire forming) you may not even have to worry about removing the small flair. If they will chamber the pressure of fire forming will remove the flair. I know this is another tool but it's cheap. Your idea about using the 150's will work too. Maybe you can come back to the pistol bullet and Unique thing later. As I said in a earlier post, once you start shooting those "plinker" loads you will love them. Yeah, I'll play with it some more, but those Hornady bullets are a bitch to line up strait. I took my deburr tool, and tried to put a bit of a flair on the mouth, and that seemed to help a bit, but not much. Hell the 150grs are a bitch to hold still till you get them in the die as well, but I did seat up a 150gr dummy that worked well. I don't have a LEE crimp die for a .303, I only have the deluxe set (neck, FL, and seating) but I do have crimp die for 7.7 Jap, same neck size ain't it?? would that work?? Is this the bell mouth die you speak of http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die I need to make a order from Midway, so ordering it isn't a huge deal if I have too.... Yes I believe that is the one. I fallowed your link and read some of the reviews. I wish I knew about the Lee before I bought my RCBS which is only good for calibers close to 30 cal. (and cost more) while the Lee looks like it works for 22cal and up. The FCD works off of the length of the cartridge. The shell holder presses up on the collet and the tapered bore in the top forces the crimping fingers to close. I don't know if the 7.7 will work for your .303 you will have to investigate that on your own. |
|
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk 556:
Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me. If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... Oh crap. I use both Speer and Hornady 100gr short jackets for .308 plinker loads and have ran into the same problem with the Hornady. The Speer bullet has a small chamfer at the bottom but the Hornady is flat. Since I also load cast bullets though I have a .308 expander (bell mouth) die. I put a very small bell mouth on the case and they start and seat nicely. I keep the bell mouth as small as possible and use the seat/crimp die to remove most of it then get the rest with a Lee FCD. Lee makes a universal bell mouth die for rifle calibers. It don't take much and for what you are doing (fire forming) you may not even have to worry about removing the small flair. If they will chamber the pressure of fire forming will remove the flair. I know this is another tool but it's cheap. Your idea about using the 150's will work too. Maybe you can come back to the pistol bullet and Unique thing later. As I said in a earlier post, once you start shooting those "plinker" loads you will love them. Yeah, I'll play with it some more, but those Hornady bullets are a bitch to line up strait. I took my deburr tool, and tried to put a bit of a flair on the mouth, and that seemed to help a bit, but not much. Hell the 150grs are a bitch to hold still till you get them in the die as well, but I did seat up a 150gr dummy that worked well. I don't have a LEE crimp die for a .303, I only have the deluxe set (neck, FL, and seating) but I do have crimp die for 7.7 Jap, same neck size ain't it?? would that work?? Is this the bell mouth die you speak of http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die I need to make a order from Midway, so ordering it isn't a huge deal if I have too.... Yes I believe that is the one. I fallowed your link and read some of the reviews. I wish I knew about the Lee before I bought my RCBS which is only good for calibers close to 30 cal. (and cost more) while the Lee looks like it works for 22cal and up. The FCD works off of the length of the cartridge. The shell holder presses up on the collet and the tapered bore in the top forces the crimping fingers to close. I don't know if the 7.7 will work for your .303 you will have to investigate that on your own. Yeah, the 7.7 don't work, it comes up about 1/16" short. It want to crimp the bullet, and not the neck
EDIT: I'm also looking at some loads for the 150gr, and they seem to be all over for 4895. Hornady seems to be the most conservative, with a starting load around 29gr of H4895, but I have IMR, so I'm not real sure how far they are off.... Then again I should be good within the 60% rule correct?? |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk 556:
Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me. If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... Oh crap. I use both Speer and Hornady 100gr short jackets for .308 plinker loads and have ran into the same problem with the Hornady. The Speer bullet has a small chamfer at the bottom but the Hornady is flat. Since I also load cast bullets though I have a .308 expander (bell mouth) die. I put a very small bell mouth on the case and they start and seat nicely. I keep the bell mouth as small as possible and use the seat/crimp die to remove most of it then get the rest with a Lee FCD. Lee makes a universal bell mouth die for rifle calibers. It don't take much and for what you are doing (fire forming) you may not even have to worry about removing the small flair. If they will chamber the pressure of fire forming will remove the flair. I know this is another tool but it's cheap. Your idea about using the 150's will work too. Maybe you can come back to the pistol bullet and Unique thing later. As I said in a earlier post, once you start shooting those "plinker" loads you will love them. Yeah, I'll play with it some more, but those Hornady bullets are a bitch to line up strait. I took my deburr tool, and tried to put a bit of a flair on the mouth, and that seemed to help a bit, but not much. Hell the 150grs are a bitch to hold still till you get them in the die as well, but I did seat up a 150gr dummy that worked well. I don't have a LEE crimp die for a .303, I only have the deluxe set (neck, FL, and seating) but I do have crimp die for 7.7 Jap, same neck size ain't it?? would that work?? Is this the bell mouth die you speak of http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die I need to make a order from Midway, so ordering it isn't a huge deal if I have too.... Yes I believe that is the one. I fallowed your link and read some of the reviews. I wish I knew about the Lee before I bought my RCBS which is only good for calibers close to 30 cal. (and cost more) while the Lee looks like it works for 22cal and up. The FCD works off of the length of the cartridge. The shell holder presses up on the collet and the tapered bore in the top forces the crimping fingers to close. I don't know if the 7.7 will work for your .303 you will have to investigate that on your own. Yeah, the 7.7 don't work, it comes up about 1/16" short. It want to crimp the bullet, and not the neck
EDIT: I'm also looking at some loads for the 150gr, and they seem to be all over for 4895. Hornady seems to be the most conservative, with a starting load around 29gr of H4895, but I have IMR, so I'm not real sure how far they are off.... Then again I should be good within the 60% rule correct?? NO !! The 60% rule is for H-4895 ONLY ! ! Not IMR-4895. You could use a IMR-4895 starting load. |
|
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk 556:
Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me. If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... Oh crap. I use both Speer and Hornady 100gr short jackets for .308 plinker loads and have ran into the same problem with the Hornady. The Speer bullet has a small chamfer at the bottom but the Hornady is flat. Since I also load cast bullets though I have a .308 expander (bell mouth) die. I put a very small bell mouth on the case and they start and seat nicely. I keep the bell mouth as small as possible and use the seat/crimp die to remove most of it then get the rest with a Lee FCD. Lee makes a universal bell mouth die for rifle calibers. It don't take much and for what you are doing (fire forming) you may not even have to worry about removing the small flair. If they will chamber the pressure of fire forming will remove the flair. I know this is another tool but it's cheap. Your idea about using the 150's will work too. Maybe you can come back to the pistol bullet and Unique thing later. As I said in a earlier post, once you start shooting those "plinker" loads you will love them. Yeah, I'll play with it some more, but those Hornady bullets are a bitch to line up strait. I took my deburr tool, and tried to put a bit of a flair on the mouth, and that seemed to help a bit, but not much. Hell the 150grs are a bitch to hold still till you get them in the die as well, but I did seat up a 150gr dummy that worked well. I don't have a LEE crimp die for a .303, I only have the deluxe set (neck, FL, and seating) but I do have crimp die for 7.7 Jap, same neck size ain't it?? would that work?? Is this the bell mouth die you speak of http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die I need to make a order from Midway, so ordering it isn't a huge deal if I have too.... Yes I believe that is the one. I fallowed your link and read some of the reviews. I wish I knew about the Lee before I bought my RCBS which is only good for calibers close to 30 cal. (and cost more) while the Lee looks like it works for 22cal and up. The FCD works off of the length of the cartridge. The shell holder presses up on the collet and the tapered bore in the top forces the crimping fingers to close. I don't know if the 7.7 will work for your .303 you will have to investigate that on your own. Yeah, the 7.7 don't work, it comes up about 1/16" short. It want to crimp the bullet, and not the neck
EDIT: I'm also looking at some loads for the 150gr, and they seem to be all over for 4895. Hornady seems to be the most conservative, with a starting load around 29gr of H4895, but I have IMR, so I'm not real sure how far they are off.... Then again I should be good within the 60% rule correct?? NO !! The 60% rule is for H-4895 ONLY ! ! Not IMR-4895. You could use a IMR-4895 starting load. Got ya, so it looks like around 39-40gr then. Hodgdon data on IMR 4895 does not list a starting load, but it says to reduce the max by 10%, so if the max is 44.2gr x 10%= 4.42 - 44.2gr max=39.78, so 39-40gr would be a decent starting load?? EDIT: Sierra calls 36gr as a starting load with a 150gr bullet, and IMR 4895, so I guess I could even go that low.... |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
Joined:
Jun 2007
Posts:
20643
EE: 100% (1)
WA, USA
|
Originally Posted By jnk556: Yes that's the belling die you need in the link. I use mine with cast bullets in rifle cartridges.Originally Posted By Motor1: Originally Posted By jnk 556: Ok, got around to playing with these pistol bullets, and hit a snag. Besides the case necks being so damn tight, and not being able to start a bullet, how the hell do you get them to seat strait?? I can't get them to seat strait for the life of me. If I can't get these bullets to work, I'll just throw some 150gr SP in them, and use the published starting load for IMR 4895 with the o-rings of course..... Oh crap. I use both Speer and Hornady 100gr short jackets for .308 plinker loads and have ran into the same problem with the Hornady. The Speer bullet has a small chamfer at the bottom but the Hornady is flat. Since I also load cast bullets though I have a .308 expander (bell mouth) die. I put a very small bell mouth on the case and they start and seat nicely. I keep the bell mouth as small as possible and use the seat/crimp die to remove most of it then get the rest with a Lee FCD. Lee makes a universal bell mouth die for rifle calibers. It don't take much and for what you are doing (fire forming) you may not even have to worry about removing the small flair. If they will chamber the pressure of fire forming will remove the flair. I know this is another tool but it's cheap. Your idea about using the 150's will work too. Maybe you can come back to the pistol bullet and Unique thing later. As I said in a earlier post, once you start shooting those "plinker" loads you will love them. Yeah, I'll play with it some more, but those Hornady bullets are a bitch to line up strait. I took my deburr tool, and tried to put a bit of a flair on the mouth, and that seemed to help a bit, but not much. Hell the 150grs are a bitch to hold still till you get them in the die as well, but I did seat up a 150gr dummy that worked well. I don't have a LEE crimp die for a .303, I only have the deluxe set (neck, FL, and seating) but I do have crimp die for 7.7 Jap, same neck size ain't it?? would that work?? nope Is this the bell mouth die you speak of http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die I need to make a order from Midway, so ordering it isn't a huge deal if I have too.... |
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
|
jnk556,
My Hornady 8th does not have the IMR-4985 listed for the 150gr. I found both listed for .308 Win. and the charge weights are nearly identical from start to max. The reason I am posting this is the same manual has the start weight for H4895 with the 150gr as 29.9gr and the max is 38.9 @2600 f/s. BTW the rifle is a Enfield #4 Mark 2. I know this raises more quentions than answers. On the other hand, my 1985 Speer manual has a starting weight with IMR-4895 at 38.0gr. The rifle was a Enfield SMLE. Concidering all of this. I think some more data research may find a lower start weight for the IMR-4895 I'll check everything I have and see what I can find. |
|
Originally Posted By Motor1:
jnk556, My Hornady 8th does not have the IMR-4985 listed for the 150gr. I found both listed for .308 Win. and the charge weights are nearly identical from start to max. The reason I am posting this is the same manual has the start weight for H4895 with the 150gr as 29.9gr and the max is 38.9 @2600 f/s. BTW the rifle is a Enfield #4 Mark 2. I know this raises more quentions than answers. On the other hand, my 1985 Speer manual has a starting weight with IMR-4895 at 38.0gr. The rifle was a Enfield SMLE. Concidering all of this. I think some more data research may find a lower start weight for the IMR-4895 I'll check everything I have and see what I can find. Yeah, I have the Hornady manual, and noticed that. I looked up the Sierra 150gr flat base, and that's where I got the 36gr from. the rest was what I got from the Hodgdon site... |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
A little info. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308-303jpg.jpg Hey thanks for that bit of info!! I have .312 pistol bullets, but they are still 100gr, that shouldn't make a difference should it? |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
A little info. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308-303jpg.jpg Hey thanks for that bit of info!! I have .312 pistol bullets, but they are still 100gr, that shouldn't make a difference should it? No it should not but your pistol bullets are .312 and that bullet is .308" I would start at the bottom for sure. You still need the expander though. I checked all my manuals and even looked some on line. I've come to the conclusion that the data in the Hornady 8th using H4895 is kind of odd compared to all the others. I have seen this before though so it's not really a surprise. It looks like the 36.0gr IMR-4895 load you found using the 150gr bullet is the lowest start load as of yet. |
|
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
A little info. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308-303jpg.jpg Hey thanks for that bit of info!! I have .312 pistol bullets, but they are still 100gr, that shouldn't make a difference should it? No it should not but your pistol bullets are .312 and that bullet is .308" I would start at the bottom for sure. You still need the expander though. I checked all my manuals and even looked some on line. I've come to the conclusion that the data in the Hornady 8th using H4895 is kind of odd compared to all the others. I have seen this before though so it's not really a surprise. It looks like the 36.0gr IMR-4895 load you found using the 150gr bullet is the lowest start load as of yet. Just placed a order with Midway, got a expander, and a .303 crimp die on the way. Yeah, the Hornady manual is pretty conservative when it comes to some loads. Makes you scratch your head sometimes
I think I'm going to load up about 20 150gr SP's with 36 gr or so of I-4895, then I'm going to load up about 20 of the pistol bullets with I-4895 using the data above, and then I will try about 20 with pistol bullets and 12gr of Unique. Should be fun to play with and also be fireforming loads. I'll see what it likes, and tune after that for fun plinking at 50-100yds (All I ever shoot anyways) |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
A little info. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308-303jpg.jpg Hey thanks for that bit of info!! I have .312 pistol bullets, but they are still 100gr, that shouldn't make a difference should it? No it should not but your pistol bullets are .312 and that bullet is .308" I would start at the bottom for sure. You still need the expander though. I checked all my manuals and even looked some on line. I've come to the conclusion that the data in the Hornady 8th using H4895 is kind of odd compared to all the others. I have seen this before though so it's not really a surprise. It looks like the 36.0gr IMR-4895 load you found using the 150gr bullet is the lowest start load as of yet. Just placed a order with Midway, got a expander, and a .303 crimp die on the way. Yeah, the Hornady manual is pretty conservative when it comes to some loads. Makes you scratch your head sometimes
I think I'm going to load up about 20 150gr SP's with 36 gr or so of I-4895, then I'm going to load up about 20 of the pistol bullets with I-4895 using the data above, and then I will try about 20 with pistol bullets and 12gr of Unique. Should be fun to play with and also be fireforming loads. I'll see what it likes, and tune after that for fun plinking at 50-100yds (All I ever shoot anyways) Sounds like a good plan. After you get this project completed we will get you started with shooting cast bullets from your .303 Imagine nice low recoiling, very little if any throat ware, good accuracy, and pennys a round to load. Once you have the expander and crimp die all you will need is some bullets. 
Guess who can hook you up with some to try.
|
|
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
A little info. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308-303jpg.jpg Hey thanks for that bit of info!! I have .312 pistol bullets, but they are still 100gr, that shouldn't make a difference should it? No it should not but your pistol bullets are .312 and that bullet is .308" I would start at the bottom for sure. You still need the expander though. I checked all my manuals and even looked some on line. I've come to the conclusion that the data in the Hornady 8th using H4895 is kind of odd compared to all the others. I have seen this before though so it's not really a surprise. It looks like the 36.0gr IMR-4895 load you found using the 150gr bullet is the lowest start load as of yet. Just placed a order with Midway, got a expander, and a .303 crimp die on the way. Yeah, the Hornady manual is pretty conservative when it comes to some loads. Makes you scratch your head sometimes
I think I'm going to load up about 20 150gr SP's with 36 gr or so of I-4895, then I'm going to load up about 20 of the pistol bullets with I-4895 using the data above, and then I will try about 20 with pistol bullets and 12gr of Unique. Should be fun to play with and also be fireforming loads. I'll see what it likes, and tune after that for fun plinking at 50-100yds (All I ever shoot anyways) Sounds like a good plan. After you get this project completed we will get you started with shooting cast bullets from your .303 Imagine nice low recoiling, very little if any throat ware, good accuracy, and pennys a round to load. Once you have the expander and crimp die all you will need is some bullets.
Guess who can hook you up with some to try.
I might be all in for that, if I have a source of bullets Not to mention they are all over to buy too, and I do have a source of old wheel weights if I ever want to.... Ah hell lets not go that far
|
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
If you have a source for old wheel weights you should collect as many as you can. I am still using lead and linotype but it won't last for ever. Lead wheel weights are going out of style very quickly.
When you are ready to try cast let me know. We will start with a mid to upper teens load 15 to 18 hundred f/s. Then later you may want to shoot some sub-sonic. The sub-sonic loads are nice because the bullet can be softer and don't require a gas check. |
Ok, got all the dies and tools, and got time to sit down and load some up.
I loaded up 20rnds of the 100gr pistol bullets with 40.5gr of IMR-4895. I figured I'd drop a half grain off of the data posted since it lists a .308 bullet, and these are .312. I didn't seat all the way tot he canelure, but I did check them and they don't hit the lands either. These sound ok?? Yes, and I still need to add the o-rings
|
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Loaded up 20rnds of the 100gr pistol bullets with 12gr of Unique this evening, and also 20rnds of 150gr SP bullets with 36gr of IMR 4895.
I guess when the snowpocalypse decides to end here, and I can get up on the mountain, I will test them out. |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
Joined:
Jun 2007
Posts:
20784
EE: 100% (1)
WA, USA
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
Joined:
Jun 2007
Posts:
21035
EE: 100% (1)
WA, USA
|
Well, I finally got a chance after the snow storm, and losing power for a week to finally get up on the mountain, and try things out. Mind you this was not a accuracy test at all, just a function test, and to fire form the brass to the chamber of my No.4 Mk.1 which has just a bit too much headspace. I used the o-ring method to hold the rim back against the bolt face, and allow the brass to form to the chamber, so the next loadings the brass will headspace on the shoulder, and not the rim, thus the case will not stretch, and will be able to be reloaded many times.
Pic of my range: 
The pistol bullet loads look kinda funny
Anyways, to the shooting part. I only shot these at 50yds, off hand, and sitting, and I wasn't really going for accuracy, as I had removed my extractor, so it would not get in the way of the o-rings on the cases, so it was a single load and fire type session. The unique loads were by far my favorite, they are pretty quiet, making just a bit more noise than a .22, but still have good zip to them, and no recoil at all Decent accuarcy, for not trying at all. (unique loads) 
The 100gr loads with the rifle powder were pretty nice, a bit of recoil, and more noise, but still a good load. The 150gr load was basically a lighter .303 load, and did have a bit of punch, but nothing like a full power .303. Well, here's my comparison of cases. As you can see the shoulders of the case really didn't "move" really they just filled out to fit the chamber. 
I have been using a flashlight, looking in the gap where the extractor would be, and and checking the fired cases in my chamber. I have checked the 40gr I-4895 and pistol bullet fired cases, and the 36gr I-4895 150gr SP fired cases, and they are indeed head spacing on the shoulder, and not on the rim, as I can see a bit of a gap between the rim and the back of the breech face. It's not much, but then again my headspace wasn't out alot either. I did try a unfired case, and yes it still has a bit of room to move between the breech face, and bolt face. (Just a pic for reference as to what gap I'm looking through. BTW, there is a unfired case in there, and I can see it move back and forth just a bit) 
|
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
FYI, due to some people getting butthurt over dumb stuff, the results thread was locked, so I added my info to the end of this thread.
Feel free to ask questions, suggest ideas, give me info. DO NOT turn this into another pissing match, there is way too much good info in here to lose. |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
jnk556 <removed> dryflash3 There are two reasons for using the o-ring method of fireforming. 1. To hold the cartridge case against the bolt face and prevent case stretching in the base web area. 2. To center the rear of the case in the chamber when the o-ring is compressed and promote equal case expansion and thus increase accuracy of your reloaded rounds. Now look at the warped banana shaped case below and see the incorrect conclusion the person came to at the link below. This case is leaning to the left and also note the off center firing pin hit on the primer, this case was laying in the bottom of the chamber when fired and out of alignment with the bore. This is what happens when the rear of the "small" American case is not centered in the "enlarged" Enfield military chamber and "NOT" by a misdrilled and crooked chamber. Please not all the faults noted from the below link are caused small diameter cases fired in a large diameter chamber.  Head spacing and bad chambers, what to look for. (or why didn't I measure the base diameter of my cases before posting bad information) http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=23116 |
|
Bare in mind, the elastomer in the O-ring does not compress. It deforms, stretches, etc., but not compress. In that sense it is best thought of as an incompressible fluid under pressure. Many a good flange has been bent, flange bolts been broken, trying to compress a misapplied O-ring face flange.
Bgedp1's cartoon shows the deformed ring correctly. Not sure though, how the O-ring can force a radial centering of an undersized OD case in an oversized chamber ID. I suppose there is a radius, bevel, or chamfer at the end of the chamber. Maybe the O-ring flows down into the radius when the bolt closes (bolt face pushes on the case head face) and helps with the centering in that way. In trying to determine the O ring free cross-section required, I would suggest getting a Parker Hannefin O-ring catalog or some other source like that and getting an assortment of cross-sections that deform some amount in cross-section but not too much when the bolt closes. The partially inserted primer cup is a clever way to measure gap between bolt face and case head face. One other suggestion that might give you a clue is to stack thin, roughly fitted, mylar disks or shims on the unfired case head until the bolt just refused to lock. Measure the thickness of that stack of shims, add another .005 to .010 to the stack height and use that for your free O-ring dia. Certainly easier said than done though. |
|
Well, I have 30 rnds of brass that was fire formed using the 41gr I-4895/100gr bullet, and the 36gr I-4895/150gr SP, that I will be loading up normal loads in for the next firing. (Already neck sized/deprimed it) I plan on loading up some with the 150gr SP's again, and some this time with some old 180gr SP bullets I have. Should be GTG with those rounds now since they are formed right?? No o-ring needed?? Load as normal??
I have also noticed this Hotshot brass to be pretty close to my chambers dimensions, so the shoulder really doesn't move too much, it just more or less fills out when I fire form it. Good thing is none of the brass I fire-formed stretched or bulged in any way that I could see, and I also measured it and it didn't grow length wise, so the o-ring did it's job 
Also another question, I have the powder left from when I pulled these rounds down, and I wonder if I could load in back in and use it?? It's a extruded powder a bit finer than IMR-4895, and it was loaded to about 41gr in the hotshot loads I broke down. So would it be safe to load back in using a charge a bit lower than 41gr?? |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
For me, the answer to that last question would depend somewhat on how many you're going to pull down to fireform before you start just cycling back through. IMR 4895 is not that expensive. However if you wind up with a 1 lb can of pulldown powder, I don't think it would hurt to set up and use it as you described.
[ETA] It sure would have been interesting to measure shoulder-to-case headface before and after fireforming to see exactly how much stretch or length change you did get. If you do not have a case headspace gage like an RCBS Precision Mike or a Hornady set up, you can make a version by just finding a cyclindrical spacer or bushing that has an ID that intersects the conical shoulder surface somewhere. Then just use your calipers to measure before and after distance to case head face. "case headspace" as defined on arfcom reload forum = X - Y. Maybe you still have some Hotshot pre-fireformed cases to do that with now? 
|
|
Originally Posted By CCW:
For me, the answer to that last question would depend somewhat on how many you're going to pull down to fireform before you start just cycling back through. IMR 4895 is not that expensive. However if you wind up with a 1 lb can of pulldown powder, I don't think it would hurt to set up and use it as you described. [ETA] It sure would have been interesting to measure shoulder-to-case headface before and after fireforming to see exactly how much stretch or length change you did get. If you do not have a case headspace gage like an RCBS Precision Mike or a Hornady set up, you can make a version by just finding a cyclindrical spacer or bushing that has an ID that intersects the conical shoulder surface somewhere. Then just use your calipers to measure before and after distance to case head face. "case headspace" as defined on arfcom reload forum = X - Y. Maybe you still have some Hotshot pre-fireformed cases to do that with now? http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/counterclockwisester/BUSHINGFORSHOULDERMEAS.jpg Yeah, I pulled down around 60+ rounds, so I have a bit of powder I didn't really want to waste all of it, so I guess I could just try something out.
As for measuring from a point on the shoulder surface, how about a 9mm casing, slips right over the neck, and stops on the shoulder..... 
Ok, so here is what I got. This is off of a unfired case. 
Y= 9mm case = .744 X= total length =2.610 so, 2.610-.744= 1.866 Fire-formed case 
Y= 9mm case = .744 X= total length= 2.622 so, 2.622-.744= 1.878 So a difference of .012 is how far the shoulder moved correct?? |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
That would be my conclusion, also.
[ETA] I recommend you keep up with those "case headspace" measurements, spot checking throughout your inventory and through more than one recycle, before and after firing. If the change before and after remains very small from this point on, it would seem the fireforming has been successful. |
|
Originally Posted By CCW:
That would be my conclusion, also. Such a small measurement, then again the headspace wasn't out alot either. Then again, I am using Hotshot brass, which I'm thinking is closer to the Privi brass as far as spec goes. After some of the stuff bigedp51 has stated about american made .303 brass, I would run away from that stuff. This hotshot brass seems to be top notch stuff though, so far anyways, I haven't really pushed it yet. I worked up some loads with the 30rnds of brass I had properly fire-formed. I loaded up 15rnds using 150gr SP bullets, 5 of each with 37, 38, and 39gr charges of IMR-4895. I also loaded up 15rnds using 180gr SP bullets, with 5 of each 36, 37, 38gr charges of IMR-4895. None of those are hot by my Sierra manual, more low to middle of the road charges, so I'll see what does best. I need to remember to put my extractor back in now too
|
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Originally Posted By CCW:
That would be my conclusion, also. [ETA] I recommend you keep up with those "case headspace" measurements, spot checking throughout your inventory and through more than one recycle, before and after firing. If the change before and after remains very small from this point on, it would seem the fireforming has been successful. Yeah, I'm going to find a better measuring tool than the 9mm case, I'll probably make one out of another case or something, one that will fit over a bullet if I have one loaded in the case, kinda like what you have in your pic. Yeah, I'll measure a random case of of the lots and see what I get... |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
|
Ok, I measured the Unique formed cases, and all are exactly the same measurement, and when all the math is is done they come out as a difference of.012, between unfired and fire-formed, so the pistol powder loads contrary to what I was told appear to have formed properly.
I'm going to load up some unfired brass using 15gr of Unique as Motor1 suggested I try, and I'll see what I get with those..... |
You will find Sympathy between Shit and Syphilis in the dictionary.
ARFCOM has been the causeand solution to all of my financial problems.
ARFCOM has been the cause
Two thirds of the way to being fat, dumb and lazy.
Joined:
Oct 2008
Posts:
2501
EE: 100% (17)
MS, USA
|
Cool thread with great advice.
Thanks for the write up, and good luck jnk556! |
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. --Eleanor Roosevelt
.303 reloading **fireforming results pg 4** (Page 2 of 2)
Armory Sponsor