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Posted: 2/28/2015 12:17:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: America][Edited]
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And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
| I think it would be helpful for shooters to replace the term "precision" with "consistent." The top right target demonstrates consistency more than precision, according to the ordinary meaning of those words. Small groups come from consistency across the firing system (every part of the system does close to the same thing every time). Once you achieve consistency, accuracy is readily achieved. |
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Originally Posted By cttb:
I think it would be helpful for shooters to replace the term "precision" with "consistent." The top right target demonstrates consistency more than precision, according to the ordinary meaning of those words. Small groups come from consistency across the firing system (every part of the system does close to the same thing every time). Once you achieve consistency, accuracy is readily achieved. Originally Posted By cttb:
I think it would be helpful for shooters to replace the term "precision" with "consistent." The top right target demonstrates consistency more than precision, according to the ordinary meaning of those words. Small groups come from consistency across the firing system (every part of the system does close to the same thing every time). Once you achieve consistency, accuracy is readily achieved. Consistency is a great word for the shooting world and really does control precision. I was discussing the statistics of shooting with my physics professor and he put me on the path of precision/accuracy and even though it is something we use pretty often in the shooting community it was interesting to see that others outside refer to it the same general way. I will try to type up some more. I got a wild hair to try and get some stuff done in here but if I just saved it and waited to 'get it all done' it would never get done. This thread is about combat carbines for new guys and what new shooters or new AR15 owners need to know to be able to effectively be able to use the rifle. Im not just talking super dynamic reloading capabilities but the real deal shooting aspects of the game. I think there are just too many tactical dirt shooters out there who are happy with shooting fast and sloppy. Or 21 gun salutes who have black rifle disease but never shoot the damn guns and have no clue how to shoot them well. Originally Posted By tbougie1:
good stuff needs to be tacked I would rather it wasn't. I want to have a conversation about it and hash some stuff out. Surprisingly lots of people will just gloss right over the tacked stuff while a thread where people are talking will actually be clicked on. |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
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Amazing post nick.
I wanted to point out one of the biggest problems I had after leaving the service was getting my head around each different round/manufacture and bbl having much different drops and accuracy.In the army I only needed one drop chart memorized, and that was for my issued carbine. The key to effective shooting is consistency, or at a minimum solid record keeping. I used to have a 10k 556 stash of randomness that I bought cheap. 193 from different places, 556 in different grains and manufacture. I didn't realize until I started shooting 3 gun what a difference it makes. Now I write them down in rifle books and have picked out some cheap pinker ammo, medium cost 556, and expensive accurate ammo so that I can minimize in negative shooting by having the drops written down for each long gun. FWIW I have no yet figured out how to do all the ballistic calculator stuff correctly, I just get a solid 100m zero and then shoot 3rd groups at different ranges to measure drop 
So I have a ways to go. My fundamentals are solid, but it need work in the technical aspect of it. |
R.I.P - SSG David H Gutierrez 25/12/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
|
Good thread. As for practical accuracy for new shooters, here a few things to think about, kind of in order of what I think is important.
1. Use all of your data. Don't ignore data just because you don't like what it says. In other words, stop throwning out the "fliers" when you measure groups. 2. Shoot big groups, seven to ten shots. Three shot groups can help you adjust sights. Five shot groups can give you some information about your rifle or your ammo. Ten shot groups show you what you're doing. 3. Group size is not an end. Accuracy is an end. Shooting a half inch group three inches of the x ring is great. At the end of the day though, it's all about keeping those shots in the xring. 4. Practice off hand shooting at least out to 200 yards (or at least as far as your range allows). Sitting down with a rest is great for eliminating variables, but it has little practical application. Does it really matter if your rifle can shoot moa at 100 yards, but you can't shoot under 8" without a rest? |
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Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
Amazing post nick. I wanted to point out one of the biggest problems I had after leaving the service was getting my head around each different round/manufacture and bbl having much different drops and accuracy.In the army I only needed one drop chart memorized, and that was for my issued carbine. The key to effective shooting is consistency, or at a minimum solid record keeping. I used to have a 10k 556 stash of randomness that I bought cheap. 193 from different places, 556 in different grains and manufacture. I didn't realize until I started shooting 3 gun what a difference it makes. Now I write them down in rifle books and have picked out some cheap pinker ammo, medium cost 556, and expensive accurate ammo so that I can minimize in negative shooting by having the drops written down for each long gun. FWIW I have no yet figured out how to do all the ballistic calculator stuff correctly, I just get a solid 100m zero and then shoot 3rd groups at different ranges to measure drop
So I have a ways to go. My fundamentals are solid, but it need work in the technical aspect of it. 
thanks man. I wanna cover the mix bag ammo thing as well hopefully we can have more around the ammo stuff because I have seen so many times where someone shows up at the range and wants to just shoot what ever ammo they have while shooting at a clump of dirt or a clay pigeon or some randomness like that. You can generally identify the difference between the dingus that goes out and grabs a gun someplace and any grab bag ammo he can find at one of the big box stores and the person who works with an ammo and gets good data for it. I think covering a basic rifle data book that can go along with your gun will be nice too. I have one for most every rifle I have and need to do better with them. Ballistic calc data is great but you need to bump it off of real world data if you want to be able to consistently make shots at varying ranges in different climates. I don't care what ammo you are getting I think stacking it deep and shooting it is what matters. I could care less about the guy with a closet holding 20k rounds if he hasn't shot 1k of it recently. That is why when people present a budget to us coming in here I generally take a chunk of that budget and put it right towards ammo. I would rather be shooting with someone with a cheaper rifle who has put thousands of rounds of the same cheap ammo through it at varying distances than a guy with a real primo boutique rifle who has only shot a few hundred rounds at 100 yards or something along those lines....there are a large number of the later here but on the internet in general and it just doesn't make sense to me. |
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Originally Posted By Hwk-I-St8:
Just to clarify in case I've had this wrong, but I thought the base steel of the chrome lined barrel was chromoly steel and the coating is chrome. Someone smarter than me can talk on this. As far as I know there are chrome lined barrels that are made of 4150 steel or CMV as you mentioned. There are barrels out there made of chrome lined 4140 which are then not mil spec because the steel is softer. I would really like someone with a back ground in this type of thing to go through the different barrel coatings and variants that can explain it well for the beginner shooter. I find it odd that people are happy to half ass an answer 20 times rather than take the time to answer it once in good detail that could then be added to the FAQ as a more agreed or definitive source. |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
| "Chromoly" generally refers to any steel alloy that starts with "41." For example, 4140 and 4150 steel are both chromoly. Chromoly and chrome plating or lining don't have anything to do with one another. Despite some research, I can't find any real information about how exactly a barrel gets a chrome lining inside of it. Ancient Chinese secret, I guess. |
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Originally Posted By cttb:
"Chromoly" generally refers to any steel alloy that starts with "41." For example, 4140 and 4150 steel are both chromoly. Chromoly and chrome plating or lining don't have anything to do with one another. Despite some research, I can't find any real information about how exactly a barrel gets a chrome lining inside of it. Ancient Chinese secret, I guess. Some good information here. It's basically electroplating. Notes on common barrel materials Stainless steel, isn't stainless, it simply "stains" less. It carries more inherent corrosion and wear resistance than high-chrome-content metals. There are a lot of different types of stainless steel. Chromoly metal is a typical high-chromium-content metal material, it's not very resistant to corrosion and in typical uses, not very wear resistant. But it machines easier and is usually less expensive. There are lots of different types of chrome steel. Chromed metal barrels have added corrosion and wear resistance (through hardness) added to it through a thin electroplated chrome layer that lines the bore. It's also a very easy surface to clean. The primary disadvantage in weapon bores is lost definition in the lands and grooves due to the electroplating process. This is true mostly because it's hard to control where this stuff goes while it's being applied. Cliff Notes on chrome-plating: Chrome-lining a bore fills in the grooves and slightly rounds out the edges of the lands. This layer of additional chrome material is not consistent in thickness in the grooves or on the lands, as a result you get uneven wear, and less less "bite" on the bullet as it attempts to move down the bore. |
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On someone else's suggestion: there should be something in here about why you should "free float" your barrel. Or more to the point, "what are the benefits of free-floating your barrel?"
OK, so here goes: First off, you barrel moves when you fire it. It creates a sort of whipping action, usually in an elliptical or oblong pattern. There are several videos all over YouTube on the subject, here's a very short one that illustrates that movement pretty well: (go ahead and watch it several times and really pay attention to how the barrel moves while it fires) 
So what does than mean to you? It means that if your barrel is resting on an object, that object will interact with the free motion of the barrel during firing. It interferes with the barrel, it does not let it move naturally while it fires. What's more, each time you apply pressure to the barrel in a different spot... that interference is different than the last time you applied pressure to it. It's inconsistent, and that's bad. One quick note about accuracy and consistency: you want to maintain consistency so you can accurately predict where your bullet will land on the target. If your barrel is resting on an object differently every time you shoot, that's not consistent. No matter how hard you try to replicate the placement of your barrel on a rest... human error comes into play. You simply cannot reliably replicate the way you rest your rifle barrel on a rest (like a sandbag or a wall or shooting sticks, etc.) every single time. The most popular manner to solve this variation-between-shots... is to remove the problem completely. In other words, don't rest your barrel on anything. Let it naturally move while the gun is firing. So how do you support the front end of the weapon when you shoot? With hand guards. "Well, isn't the barrel attached to the hand guards?" In some cases the answer is yes, in other cases the answer is no. In most service weapons, the hand guards are not free-floating. The M16A2, M4, M16A4, they all have hand quards or Picatinney rail systems that are attached at both the front and rear of the barrel. Since these types of hand guards/rails are attached to the barrel on more places, they translate pressure that is placed on them... to the barrel. That interferes with the natural movement of the barrel during firing. So, most folks let the barrel do what it needs to when it fires. They install a hand guard that is completely free of any contact with the barrel. In a free-floated hand guard/rail, the only part touching the barrel... is where it's mounted to the upper receiver. The barrel is allowed to move freely and perform consistently. And that's the most important part, it's consistent. If it's consistent, it becomes predictable... and then you can aim that prediction. I'm not going to go into the release of a bullet from the bore in a consistent point of a harmonic (standing wave) in a solid object... but, if you understand that last sentence, that's basically what's happening. Here's another videos on the subject that most people can understand:
Rob Pincus is a smart dude that's spent a lot of ammunition, not just some schmo off the street. Lastly, with today's price points, and the benefits of circulating cooler air around the barrel... there's really no reason to not apply a free-floating hand guard to your gun. |
the more you know, the less you have to carry.
Nick, I have some questions about ballistic calculators for getting a ballpark ballistic table for your rounds. For dudes like me who buy off the shelf ammo (I try to buy consisted brands and rounds) how do we figure out the values for some of these options?
While the varmint ammo I've purchased and some of the fancy stuff lists muzzle velocity and such, how do I figure out the "BC" and muzzle velocities for boxed rounds like m193 or m855 or randomly afffordable 223? Do they differ from place to place? |
R.I.P - SSG David H Gutierrez 25/12/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
 ARFCOM NEEDS MORE THREADS LIKE THIS ONE! this is a more appropriate place for this thread! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1708546_do_you_ever_check_your_ammo___bullets_concentricity_.html |
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Some people just wanna watch the world burn.
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Originally Posted By winddummy82:
ARFCOM NEEDS MORE THREADS LIKE THIS ONE! this is a more appropriate place for this thread! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1708546_do_you_ever_check_your_ammo___bullets_concentricity_.html I am locked out of GD..in your face can't even see that. |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
|
Originally Posted By nickforney: I am locked out of GD..in your face can't even see that. Originally Posted By nickforney: Originally Posted By winddummy82: ARFCOM NEEDS MORE THREADS LIKE THIS ONE! this is a more appropriate place for this thread! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1708546_do_you_ever_check_your_ammo___bullets_concentricity_.html I am locked out of GD..in your face can't even see that. heres the question... do you check your ammo for concentricity?  |
living well is the best revenge!
ETERNAL R & R my brothers
CPT Ritz,
SSG Epps,
SSG Ortiz,
LTC Rennie Cory Jr...
AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY LET'S GO C 2/325 abn inf 1983 - 1986
ETERNAL R & R my brothers
CPT Ritz,
SSG Epps,
SSG Ortiz,
LTC Rennie Cory Jr...
AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY LET'S GO C 2/325 abn inf 1983 - 1986
|
Originally Posted By tweeter:
On someone else's suggestion: there should be something in here about why you should "free float" your barrel. Or more to the point, "what are the benefits of free-floating your barrel?" OK, so here goes: First off, you barrel moves when you fire it. It creates a sort of whipping action, usually in an elliptical or oblong pattern. There are several videos all over YouTube on the subject, here's a very short one that illustrates that movement pretty well: (go ahead and watch it several times and really pay attention to how the barrel moves while it fires)  http://youtu.be/_9ULBtsnkR0
So what does than mean to you? It means that if your barrel is resting on an object, that object will interact with the free motion of the barrel during firing. It interferes with the barrel, it does not let it move naturally while it fires. What's more, each time you apply pressure to the barrel in a different spot... that interference is different than the last time you applied pressure to it. It's inconsistent, and that's bad. One quick note about accuracy and consistency: you want to maintain consistency so you can accurately predict where your bullet will land on the target. If your barrel is resting on an object differently every time you shoot, that's not consistent. No matter how hard you try to replicate the placement of your barrel on a rest... human error comes into play. You simply cannot reliably replicate the way you rest your rifle barrel on a rest (like a sandbag or a wall or shooting sticks, etc.) every single time. The most popular manner to solve this variation-between-shots... is to remove the problem completely. In other words, don't rest your barrel on anything. Let it naturally move while the gun is firing. So how do you support the front end of the weapon when you shoot? With hand guards. "Well, isn't the barrel attached to the hand guards?" In some cases the answer is yes, in other cases the answer is no. In most service weapons, the hand guards are not free-floating. The M16A2, M4, M16A4, they all have hand quards or Picatinney rail systems that are attached at both the front and rear of the barrel. Since these types of hand guards/rails are attached to the barrel on more places, they translate pressure that is placed on them... to the barrel. That interferes with the natural movement of the barrel during firing. So, most folks let the barrel do what it needs to when it fires. They install a hand guard that is completely free of any contact with the barrel. In a free-floated hand guard/rail, the only part touching the barrel... is where it's mounted to the upper receiver. The barrel is allowed to move freely and perform consistently. And that's the most important part, it's consistent. If it's consistent, it becomes predictable... and then you can aim that prediction. I'm not going to go into the release of a bullet from the bore in a consistent point of a harmonic (standing wave) in a solid object... but, if you understand that last sentence, that's basically what's happening. Here's another videos on the subject that most people can understand: http://youtu.be/0Xr_RG_lcNk
Rob Pincus is a smart dude that's spent a lot of ammunition, not just some schmo off the street. Lastly, with today's price points, and the benefits of circulating cooler air around the barrel... there's really no reason to not apply a free-floating hand guard to your gun. Cool post. I was trying to get some discussion going trying to quantify the degree to which a non-free floating barrel impacts how consistently an AR performs. The context was that open sights are inherently less accurate than magnified optics at, say 100 yards (at least for me with 50 year old eyes and the impaired vision that goes with that). What I was wondering is if the reduced consistency with a non-FF barrel was statistically significant given the reduced precision of open sights. It went immediately off track and was worthless. I'd like to see some real world numbers....same rifle, non FF....magnified optic...what's the grouping look like. Then FF it with everything else the same, how much does the grouping tighten up? Now put irons on that same rifle....what's the impact with the reduced precision of the irons vs magnified optic. Was the improvement of the FF worth it if you're using irons? Further, define "worth it"? In a combat situation, is it the difference between a hit and a miss, or a core hit and a graze? This stuff is interesting to me and this thread is fantastic....what great info not only for a beginner, but for a lot of people here I think. |
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Originally Posted By winddummy82:
heres the question... do you check your ammo for concentricity? http://nielsonbrothersarms.com/Club_files/image004.jpg Originally Posted By winddummy82:
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By winddummy82:
ARFCOM NEEDS MORE THREADS LIKE THIS ONE! this is a more appropriate place for this thread! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1708546_do_you_ever_check_your_ammo___bullets_concentricity_.html I am locked out of GD..in your face can't even see that. do you check your ammo for concentricity? http://nielsonbrothersarms.com/Club_files/image004.jpg I don't. When it comes to my precision guns I have gotten a bit crazy at times weighing projectiles and putting them in lots as well as forming melpats but I don't have a concentric gauge and I definitely don't see the point with commercial ammo. Anyone can disagree and think it is very important but I think a bunch of other things are more important and buying ammo and gaining something from each shot you take would be more valuable to most new guys. |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
|
Originally Posted By Hwk-I-St8:
Cool post. I was trying to get some discussion going trying to quantify the degree to which a non-free floating barrel impacts how consistently an AR performs. The context was that open sights are inherently less accurate than magnified optics at, say 100 yards (at least for me with 50 year old eyes and the impaired vision that goes with that). What I was wondering is if the reduced consistency with a non-FF barrel was statistically significant given the reduced precision of open sights. It went immediately off track and was worthless. I'd like to see some real world numbers....same rifle, non FF....magnified optic...what's the grouping look like. Then FF it with everything else the same, how much does the grouping tighten up? Now put irons on that same rifle....what's the impact with the reduced precision of the irons vs magnified optic. Was the improvement of the FF worth it if you're using irons? Further, define "worth it"? In a combat situation, is it the difference between a hit and a miss, or a core hit and a graze? This stuff is interesting to me and this thread is fantastic....what great info not only for a beginner, but for a lot of people here I think. Originally Posted By Hwk-I-St8:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
On someone else's suggestion: there should be something in here about why you should "free float" your barrel. Or more to the point, "what are the benefits of free-floating your barrel?" OK, so here goes: First off, you barrel moves when you fire it. It creates a sort of whipping action, usually in an elliptical or oblong pattern. There are several videos all over YouTube on the subject, here's a very short one that illustrates that movement pretty well: (go ahead and watch it several times and really pay attention to how the barrel moves while it fires) http://youtu.be/_9ULBtsnkR0
So what does than mean to you? It means that if your barrel is resting on an object, that object will interact with the free motion of the barrel during firing. It interferes with the barrel, it does not let it move naturally while it fires. What's more, each time you apply pressure to the barrel in a different spot... that interference is different than the last time you applied pressure to it. It's inconsistent, and that's bad. One quick note about accuracy and consistency: you want to maintain consistency so you can accurately predict where your bullet will land on the target. If your barrel is resting on an object differently every time you shoot, that's not consistent. No matter how hard you try to replicate the placement of your barrel on a rest... human error comes into play. You simply cannot reliably replicate the way you rest your rifle barrel on a rest (like a sandbag or a wall or shooting sticks, etc.) every single time. The most popular manner to solve this variation-between-shots... is to remove the problem completely. In other words, don't rest your barrel on anything. Let it naturally move while the gun is firing. So how do you support the front end of the weapon when you shoot? With hand guards. "Well, isn't the barrel attached to the hand guards?" In some cases the answer is yes, in other cases the answer is no. In most service weapons, the hand guards are not free-floating. The M16A2, M4, M16A4, they all have hand quards or Picatinney rail systems that are attached at both the front and rear of the barrel. Since these types of hand guards/rails are attached to the barrel on more places, they translate pressure that is placed on them... to the barrel. That interferes with the natural movement of the barrel during firing. So, most folks let the barrel do what it needs to when it fires. They install a hand guard that is completely free of any contact with the barrel. In a free-floated hand guard/rail, the only part touching the barrel... is where it's mounted to the upper receiver. The barrel is allowed to move freely and perform consistently. And that's the most important part, it's consistent. If it's consistent, it becomes predictable... and then you can aim that prediction. I'm not going to go into the release of a bullet from the bore in a consistent point of a harmonic (standing wave) in a solid object... but, if you understand that last sentence, that's basically what's happening. Here's another videos on the subject that most people can understand: http://youtu.be/0Xr_RG_lcNk
Rob Pincus is a smart dude that's spent a lot of ammunition, not just some schmo off the street. Lastly, with today's price points, and the benefits of circulating cooler air around the barrel... there's really no reason to not apply a free-floating hand guard to your gun. Cool post. I was trying to get some discussion going trying to quantify the degree to which a non-free floating barrel impacts how consistently an AR performs. The context was that open sights are inherently less accurate than magnified optics at, say 100 yards (at least for me with 50 year old eyes and the impaired vision that goes with that). What I was wondering is if the reduced consistency with a non-FF barrel was statistically significant given the reduced precision of open sights. It went immediately off track and was worthless. I'd like to see some real world numbers....same rifle, non FF....magnified optic...what's the grouping look like. Then FF it with everything else the same, how much does the grouping tighten up? Now put irons on that same rifle....what's the impact with the reduced precision of the irons vs magnified optic. Was the improvement of the FF worth it if you're using irons? Further, define "worth it"? In a combat situation, is it the difference between a hit and a miss, or a core hit and a graze? This stuff is interesting to me and this thread is fantastic....what great info not only for a beginner, but for a lot of people here I think. That's an awesome idea! Also, I would like to extend my thanks for you volunteering to gather this data.  Let us know when you have results.
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the more you know, the less you have to carry.
|
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. for new shooters who do not yet know the capabilities of their rifle or themselves, I would recommend money spent on quality ammunition, quality optics, a quality trigger, lots of practice, and then to push it further, a free floated handguard, in that order. For close range use of under 200 yards, I see no reason to free float at all |
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. for new shooters who do not yet know the capabilities of their rifle or themselves, I would recommend money spent on quality ammunition, quality optics, a quality trigger, lots of practice, and then to push it further, a free floated handguard, in that order. For close range use of under 200 yards, I see no reason to free float at all I agree. A whoooooooole metric fuck - load of bad guys have met their demise at the hands of a non free floated A1/A2/A4/M4. And I agree that at close distances free floating isn't really necessary, but in a place like Afghanistan where alot of engagements are out to or around 800 meters, you bet your arse I'd rather have a DD RIS II than a KAC M4 RAS. |
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. Freefloating increases accuracy, and is arguably applicable to combat accuracy. Non-freefloated barrels suffer the effects of inconsistent pressure applied affecting accuracy. Due to barrel vibration consistency having an impact on accuracy, freefloating the barrel actually makes a lot of sense for combat accuracy. In your thread, you shot from a rest on a bench, with equal applied pressure to the barrel. That makes the effects more consistent. Imagine in combat with a non-freefloated rig and you're using the side of a wall or window frame for support and putting horizontal pressure on your barrel. Then you drop to the prone, and put vertical pressure on your barrel. Variations like these is where you create inconsistencies with barrel vibration affecting accuracy. In regards to accuracy for any type of application, it is important to remove as many variables as possible. It makes more sense to freefloat if you have the option. |
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Originally Posted By Mister_H:
Freefloating increases accuracy, and is arguably applicable to combat accuracy. Non-freefloated barrels suffer the effects of inconsistent pressure applied affecting accuracy. Due to barrel vibration consistency having an impact on accuracy, freefloating the barrel actually makes a lot of sense for combat accuracy. In your thread, you shot from a rest on a bench, with equal applied pressure to the barrel. That makes the effects more consistent. Imagine in combat with a non-freefloated rig and you're using the side of a wall or window frame for support and putting horizontal pressure on your barrel. Then you drop to the prone, and put vertical pressure on your barrel. Variations like these is where you create inconsistencies with barrel vibration affecting accuracy. In regards to accuracy for any type of application, it is important to remove as many variables as possible. It makes more sense to freefloat if you have the option. Originally Posted By Mister_H:
Originally Posted By MRW:
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. Freefloating increases accuracy, and is arguably applicable to combat accuracy. Non-freefloated barrels suffer the effects of inconsistent pressure applied affecting accuracy. Due to barrel vibration consistency having an impact on accuracy, freefloating the barrel actually makes a lot of sense for combat accuracy. In your thread, you shot from a rest on a bench, with equal applied pressure to the barrel. That makes the effects more consistent. Imagine in combat with a non-freefloated rig and you're using the side of a wall or window frame for support and putting horizontal pressure on your barrel. Then you drop to the prone, and put vertical pressure on your barrel. Variations like these is where you create inconsistencies with barrel vibration affecting accuracy. In regards to accuracy for any type of application, it is important to remove as many variables as possible. It makes more sense to freefloat if you have the option. The reason the Marines' gunner community wants a caged barrel (parlance for free floated barrel) is testing done in 2011 to see if the M27 should be the service rifle showed the same shooter with the same weapon on average got 15 percent more hits when they took the same stock A4 or M4 and put a caged hand guard on the weapon across the various qualification tables and field fire courses. |
In the real world off-campus, good marksmanship trumps good will.
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Originally Posted By Mister_H: Freefloating increases accuracy, and is arguably applicable to combat accuracy. Non-freefloated barrels suffer the effects of inconsistent pressure applied affecting accuracy. Due to barrel vibration consistency having an impact on accuracy, freefloating the barrel actually makes a lot of sense for combat accuracy. In your thread, you shot from a rest on a bench, with equal applied pressure to the barrel. That makes the effects more consistent. Imagine in combat with a non-freefloated rig and you're using the side of a wall or window frame for support and putting horizontal pressure on your barrel. Then you drop to the prone, and put vertical pressure on your barrel. Variations like these is where you create inconsistencies with barrel vibration affecting accuracy. In regards to accuracy for any type of application, it is important to remove as many variables as possible. It makes more sense to freefloat if you have the option. Originally Posted By Mister_H: Originally Posted By MRW: I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. Freefloating increases accuracy, and is arguably applicable to combat accuracy. Non-freefloated barrels suffer the effects of inconsistent pressure applied affecting accuracy. Due to barrel vibration consistency having an impact on accuracy, freefloating the barrel actually makes a lot of sense for combat accuracy. In your thread, you shot from a rest on a bench, with equal applied pressure to the barrel. That makes the effects more consistent. Imagine in combat with a non-freefloated rig and you're using the side of a wall or window frame for support and putting horizontal pressure on your barrel. Then you drop to the prone, and put vertical pressure on your barrel. Variations like these is where you create inconsistencies with barrel vibration affecting accuracy. In regards to accuracy for any type of application, it is important to remove as many variables as possible. It makes more sense to freefloat if you have the option. I understand and have experienced all of that. I still contend that it does not matter at all for the vast majority of combat engagements, which is what the thread is about. Those seeking to improve their combat accuracy should spend their time and money on quality ammunition and developing their shooting skills. My rifles will perform roughly 2 MOA from the bench. Even in a worst-case scenario of having to rest the barrel itself against a barricade or something, I cannot imagine the dispersion more than doubling to 4 MOA. But a 4 MOA rifle is still combat effective at 300 yards, which is well beyond typical combat engagements. If I miss a man-sized target at 300 yards shooting under pressure from a hasty position, it won't be because I didn't have a free-floated barrel. Free floating has its place, and it can't hurt, but for combat shooting it's really not relevant. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By R0N: The reason the Marines' gunner community wants a caged barrel (parlance for free floated barrel) is testing done in 2011 to see if the M27 should be the service rifle showed the same shooter with the same weapon on average got 15 percent more hits when they took the same stock A4 or M4 and put a caged hand guard on the weapon across the various qualification tables and field fire courses. Interesting. When I did a before-and-after test of free floating a gov't barrel, the overall group size of various ammunition tested improved by about 20%. Most ammunition showed improvement, two loads got larger. But even the worst groups from bulk 55 and 62 grain ammo shot at around 2 MOA from the standard handguard, which is more than adequate out to 500 yards. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I understand and have experienced all of that. I still contend that it does not matter at all for the vast majority of combat engagements, which is what the thread is about. Those seeking to improve their combat accuracy should spend their time and money on quality ammunition and developing their shooting skills. My rifles will perform roughly 2 MOA from the bench. Even in a worst-case scenario of having to rest the barrel itself against a barricade or something, I cannot imagine the dispersion more than doubling to 4 MOA. But a 4 MOA rifle is still combat effective at 300 yards, which is well beyond typical combat engagements. If I miss a man-sized target at 300 yards shooting under pressure from a hasty position, it won't be because I didn't have a free-floated barrel. Free floating has its place, and it can't hurt, but for combat shooting it's really not relevant. Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By Mister_H:
Originally Posted By MRW:
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. Freefloating increases accuracy, and is arguably applicable to combat accuracy. Non-freefloated barrels suffer the effects of inconsistent pressure applied affecting accuracy. Due to barrel vibration consistency having an impact on accuracy, freefloating the barrel actually makes a lot of sense for combat accuracy. In your thread, you shot from a rest on a bench, with equal applied pressure to the barrel. That makes the effects more consistent. Imagine in combat with a non-freefloated rig and you're using the side of a wall or window frame for support and putting horizontal pressure on your barrel. Then you drop to the prone, and put vertical pressure on your barrel. Variations like these is where you create inconsistencies with barrel vibration affecting accuracy. In regards to accuracy for any type of application, it is important to remove as many variables as possible. It makes more sense to freefloat if you have the option. I understand and have experienced all of that. I still contend that it does not matter at all for the vast majority of combat engagements, which is what the thread is about. Those seeking to improve their combat accuracy should spend their time and money on quality ammunition and developing their shooting skills. My rifles will perform roughly 2 MOA from the bench. Even in a worst-case scenario of having to rest the barrel itself against a barricade or something, I cannot imagine the dispersion more than doubling to 4 MOA. But a 4 MOA rifle is still combat effective at 300 yards, which is well beyond typical combat engagements. If I miss a man-sized target at 300 yards shooting under pressure from a hasty position, it won't be because I didn't have a free-floated barrel. Free floating has its place, and it can't hurt, but for combat shooting it's really not relevant. Because most combat shooting is area fire |
In the real world off-campus, good marksmanship trumps good will.
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Originally Posted By R0N: Because most combat shooting is area fire Originally Posted By R0N: I understand and have experienced all of that. I still contend that it does not matter at all for the vast majority of combat engagements, which is what the thread is about. Those seeking to improve their combat accuracy should spend their time and money on quality ammunition and developing their shooting skills. My rifles will perform roughly 2 MOA from the bench. Even in a worst-case scenario of having to rest the barrel itself against a barricade or something, I cannot imagine the dispersion more than doubling to 4 MOA. But a 4 MOA rifle is still combat effective at 300 yards, which is well beyond typical combat engagements. If I miss a man-sized target at 300 yards shooting under pressure from a hasty position, it won't be because I didn't have a free-floated barrel. Free floating has its place, and it can't hurt, but for combat shooting it's really not relevant. Because most combat shooting is area fire I disagree, but even if we accept your definition, area fire does not require a free float handguard. Perhaps we should define what we mean by "combat carbine" and what the requisite requirements are for it to be "accurate" |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I disagree, but even if we accept your definition, area fire does not require a free float handguard. Perhaps we should define what we mean by "combat carbine" and what the requisite requirements are for it to be "accurate" Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Because most combat shooting is area fire I disagree, but even if we accept your definition, area fire does not require a free float handguard. Perhaps we should define what we mean by "combat carbine" and what the requisite requirements are for it to be "accurate" I'd argue the principles of accuracy apply universally. |
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Originally Posted By Mister_H:
I'd argue the principles of accuracy apply universally. Originally Posted By Mister_H:
Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Because most combat shooting is area fire I disagree, but even if we accept your definition, area fire does not require a free float handguard. Perhaps we should define what we mean by "combat carbine" and what the requisite requirements are for it to be "accurate" I'd argue the principles of accuracy apply universally. Right. Small unit fire suppression is a tactic, but just that. A single tactic in the fireteams toolbox. The potential for accurate fire from the individual rifleman is a benefit that will never stop being useful across the board. As Tweeter mentioned, with the actual cost involved it makes no sense not to free float individual rifles. |
My drill sergeant had done three tours as combat arms, had a scar down the length of his face, and was no-shit bi-polar. That's how they are supposed to be.
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Originally Posted By daemon734:
Right. Small unit fire suppression is a tactic, but just that. A single tactic in the fireteams toolbox. The potential for accurate fire from the individual rifleman is a benefit that will never stop being useful across the board. As Tweeter mentioned, with the actual cost involved it makes no sense not to free float individual rifles. Originally Posted By daemon734:
Originally Posted By Mister_H:
Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Because most combat shooting is area fire I disagree, but even if we accept your definition, area fire does not require a free float handguard. Perhaps we should define what we mean by "combat carbine" and what the requisite requirements are for it to be "accurate" I'd argue the principles of accuracy apply universally. Right. Small unit fire suppression is a tactic, but just that. A single tactic in the fireteams toolbox. The potential for accurate fire from the individual rifleman is a benefit that will never stop being useful across the board. As Tweeter mentioned, with the actual cost involved it makes no sense not to free float individual rifles. This. Improved rounds, optics, and NV/IR has really maximized the service rifles effectiveness, and with the cost of free float systems (many that can mount on the stock barrell nut) there's little reason not to upgrade considering the benifits vs cost a new system that will come free floated. I suppose you could skip upgrading the grenadiers practically speaking. |
R.I.P - SSG David H Gutierrez 25/12/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I disagree, but even if we accept your definition, area fire does not require a free float handguard. Perhaps we should define what we mean by "combat carbine" and what the requisite requirements are for it to be "accurate" Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By R0N:
I understand and have experienced all of that. I still contend that it does not matter at all for the vast majority of combat engagements, which is what the thread is about. Those seeking to improve their combat accuracy should spend their time and money on quality ammunition and developing their shooting skills. My rifles will perform roughly 2 MOA from the bench. Even in a worst-case scenario of having to rest the barrel itself against a barricade or something, I cannot imagine the dispersion more than doubling to 4 MOA. But a 4 MOA rifle is still combat effective at 300 yards, which is well beyond typical combat engagements. If I miss a man-sized target at 300 yards shooting under pressure from a hasty position, it won't be because I didn't have a free-floated barrel. Free floating has its place, and it can't hurt, but for combat shooting it's really not relevant. Because most combat shooting is area fire I disagree, but even if we accept your definition, area fire does not require a free float handguard. Perhaps we should define what we mean by "combat carbine" and what the requisite requirements are for it to be "accurate" I believe free floating is a benefit because non-free floating barrels with enough pressure either from sling or fore grip can temporarily shift the barrel out of the alignment with the optic, they tend to cool better and in 0.0000000001 percent of time you shoot at a defined target and not a general area it may provide a benefit. However that being said, in the majority of the cases it would not improve the capability of the weapon, |
In the real world off-campus, good marksmanship trumps good will.
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Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
I suppose you could skip upgrading the grenadiers practically speaking. Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
I suppose you could skip upgrading the grenadiers practically speaking. Or use 320's standalone, as God intended them to be. Originally Posted By R0N:
However that being said, in the majority of the cases it would not improve the capability of the weapon, It could renegotiate the cost of FF handguards and stop paying 1995 prices to Knights for the two piece RAS. |
My drill sergeant had done three tours as combat arms, had a scar down the length of his face, and was no-shit bi-polar. That's how they are supposed to be.
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I feel like we're talking past each other rather than actually disagreeing. We should really define what we mean by "combat accuracy." My minimum standard for a rifle and ammunition combination is a 10 shot group with a mean radius of 0.8" or less and an extreme spread of 2.5" or less. This standard implies that at 500 yards, half of the shots will fall within a 8-inch diameter circle, with none exceeding 13 inches. The width of my torso is 13" and I've got a medium athletic build. My rifles with standard handguards can perform this quite easily. This is my minimum "combat accuracy" standard. But just because the hardware can perform like that doesn't mean that I can shoot like that. Simply having the gear does not mean that I can produce results. I've shot 3-gun with an emphasis on rifle for the past seven years and this has been my progression. Most of the stages are short range run-and-gun, with a few medium range (less than 50 yards) stages, and one long range stage between 100 and 250 yards. I showed up with what I had and began participating. Here's how I've adapted. 1. Learn to operate your rifle: I had to work on reloads, shooting out of breath, compensating for sight offset at close range, shooting from uncomfortable positions, clear malfunctions, etc. That takes a lot of time and work. 2. Ammunition: shooting the close-range stages with steel-cased Wolf ammo was not a problem, but when I started paying attention to the long range shooting, I got frustrated at my performance. It wasn't until I accuracy tested some Wolf and found that it was 4-5 MOA ammo from the bench that I realized my problem. It's understandable that I would regularly miss an 8-inch plate at 250 yards when my ammo dispersion at that distance was 12 inches. I switched to better ammunition for distance stages. 3. Optics: I used a red dot initially and loved it. Then I decided to be a purist and used an A1 iron-sighted rifle for a while. Then on the distance stages I had trouble seeing small targets in the shadows and went back to red dots. But I still had trouble and decided my old eyes needed magnification. I tried various scopes to some degree of success or another. Right now I use a 1.5x ACOG, which is just enough to distinguish distance targets and still let me run-and-gun at close targets. 4. Trigger. It took a while, but the more I paid attention to my distance shots, the better I got, and the more I realized how gritty and tough my trigger was. I upgraded to an ALG NiB trigger and am happy. Each adaptation was based on a problem I was having. The change was based on a discovered need. So far, I haven't needed a free float handguard. Although I am considering putting one on my 16" lightweight BCM build to try and take it out to 500 yards with a shooting sling. To do that, I realize I'll need one. For the guy reading this thread who has an AR without a free floated barrel , I suggest he spend time and money on those first 4 items I listed before considering that change. to that end, here's some encouragement: Rack Grade AR at 1000 yards M4 at 1000 yards Accuracy potential of an M4 |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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So for building load data for a ballistic calculator im tracking I need the following.
Chronograph - what is a good value model of chrony (556, 308) Bullet data - off the box of the round hopefully? If my bullet is 556 m193 or a 308 that says "168gr hpbt match" do I just google it? Call the manufacturer for info if it's not listed? Optics height - what's the best way to measure this? Is it center bore to center optic? Anything else I need? Also, is getting a 100m zero in a rifle vice better than prone or bench shooting it? I met a guy who swears by a vice for getting a laser beam optic zero. |
R.I.P - SSG David H Gutierrez 25/12/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
Some people just wanna watch the world burn.
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Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
So for building load data for a ballistic calculator im tracking I need the following. Chronograph - what is a good value model of chrony (556, 308)a chrony is nice but it isn't needed. You can true data based on where you are geting hits in comparison to the speed you are actually getting. see the bullet data for more info Bullet data - off the box of the round hopefully? If my bullet is 556 m193 or a 308 that says "168gr hpbt match" do I just google it? Call the manufacturer for info if it's not listed?193 has tons of data out there and the load will change for every 20 degrees or so change in temperature. base line info is good enough info and it is every where all over the internet. You could tell me what barrel it is and I will take something similar out and get you a 10 shot chrony for me which we are pretty close the speed can give you a ball park. The freedom munitions stuff you like is either a hornady or sierra bullet but they react about identically in the air so I will just give you data for sierra from the web page. dia inch0.308 weight grains168 sectional density .253 ballistic coefficients and velocity ranges .462 @ 2600 fps and above .447 between 2600 and 2100 fps .424 between 2100 and 1600 fps .405 @ 1600 fps and below that should be what you need to plug in. these are great rounds for the type of shooting you do and you are a smart man to buy a pile of it and shoot the same thing all day every day. Too many people get 20 different rounds and have no data for any of them. Optics height - what's the best way to measure this? Is it center bore to center optic?My go to is to measure from the base of the barrel to the top of the bell on the scope then get the diameter of both and cut them in half. To some people that sounds hard but it is very easy. You want the distance from the center of the bore to the center of the glass. This is easiest with the micrometer but you can use a ruler as well. Anything else I need?some calcs will ask for pressure in your area. The meteorological data can play a big role. You can get an accurate reading from localconditions.com the humidity and baro pressure is generally asked from good calcs. I haven't gotten a good calc for my iphone yet but still have a samsung s4 in with my kestral and data book(at the shoot I forgot that bag sitting on my bed. I felt pretty stupid. Also, is getting a 100m zero in a rifle vice better than prone or bench shooting it? I met a guy who swears by a vice for getting a laser beam optic zero.never done it man. My school of thought is I want the zero to be based on me laying on my mat behind the gun. I don't like shooting on benches and I don't mess around with a bunch of stuff. I load my bipod properly and generally use the same squeeze bag I always use anyways. I think the load on the guns bipod is important and I have always shot that way. |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
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Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy: So for building load data for a ballistic calculator im tracking I need the following. Chronograph - what is a good value model of chrony (556, 308) Bullet data - off the box of the round hopefully? If my bullet is 556 m193 or a 308 that says "168gr hpbt match" do I just google it? Call the manufacturer for info if it's not listed? Optics height - what's the best way to measure this? Is it center bore to center optic? Anything else I need? Also, is getting a 100m zero in a rifle vice better than prone or bench shooting it? I met a guy who swears by a vice for getting a laser beam optic zero. bullet data is available from the manufacturer. I use Sierra bullets, and the ballistic coefficient for each bullet can be found on their website Optics height is measrued from bore to ceterline of optic I would say prone or bench shooting is preferred, because you also learn how to refine your shooting technique as you go. If I can't repeat my vice-produced group without the vice, what good does that do me? I'm never going to actually shoot the rifle in a practical setting with the vice. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW:
here's my chrony click. Needs a sturdy tripod too bullet data is available from the manufacturer. I use Sierra bullets, and the ballistic coefficient for each bullet can be found on their website Optics height is measrued from bore to ceterline of optic I would say prone or bench shooting is preferred, because you also learn how to refine your shooting technique as you go. If I can't repeat my vice-produced group without the vice, what good does that do me? I'm never going to actually shoot the rifle in a practical setting with the vice. Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
So for building load data for a ballistic calculator im tracking I need the following. Chronograph - what is a good value model of chrony (556, 308) Bullet data - off the box of the round hopefully? If my bullet is 556 m193 or a 308 that says "168gr hpbt match" do I just google it? Call the manufacturer for info if it's not listed? Optics height - what's the best way to measure this? Is it center bore to center optic? Anything else I need? Also, is getting a 100m zero in a rifle vice better than prone or bench shooting it? I met a guy who swears by a vice for getting a laser beam optic zero. bullet data is available from the manufacturer. I use Sierra bullets, and the ballistic coefficient for each bullet can be found on their website Optics height is measrued from bore to ceterline of optic I would say prone or bench shooting is preferred, because you also learn how to refine your shooting technique as you go. If I can't repeat my vice-produced group without the vice, what good does that do me? I'm never going to actually shoot the rifle in a practical setting with the vice. Check. And thanks for the info nick. |
R.I.P - SSG David H Gutierrez 25/12/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11
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Just a note about free floating...
As mentioned the barrel whips during the bullets travel down the bore and the simplest way to minimize variation in whip position at bullet exit is to free float the barrel. There is also another way. Changing the harmonics of the barrel by preloading or biasing it. This method is used on NM M14s and NN M1s. With lightweight barrel profiles, free floating usually is not the best option if you have a full stock, but in an AR type weapon you can't preload the barrel. |
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