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You'll be OK using a new bolt on a used barrel. It's when someone puts in an old bolt that has worn out of spec into the pipe that things go wrong. ARs are "universally" headspaced (for lack of a better term). Many people have swapped out bolts without using gauges, and I've never heard of it being a problem. The military is the reason for this 'urban legend', they replace parts at certain intervals, and do not want the parts swapped between weapons with different round counts. If your worried, get a set of go/no-go gauges from Midway USA, and check when you get your spare bolts. I'll bet they are all fine, as long as the bolt is in spec, and the barrel is not out of spec to start with. ETA/ p. nine is mine. |
Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
I don't aspire to mediocrity, so I'll opt for stuff made to a standard.
That would be nice. From my perspective, i am there to teach. Poorly made guns make my job harder. Every minute i / my AI's spend unfucking someones gun is a minute taken away from teaching. On the mil side, the guns either work or they gave exceeded their service life. On the cop and civilian side, people buy "just as good as" and then find out it isn't. I have more rounds through some of my guns from students then from me. Not a good thing. This is big boys rules. Hands can't be held, and while most coming to classes now have read multiple AAR's and buy more wisely- we aren't seeing as many problems now as we saw three years ago. What goes wrong is pretty much standard. Guns built to no standard. No QC Bad parts, springs and extractors. Bad mags Bad ammo No lube. Pretty simple actually. |
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Actually, I will take this question one further step ... Pat the problems you see, are they mostly on the uppers or lowers? What issues do you see with lowers in general? I always use LMT uppers / barrels and BCGs so I don't worry about my uppers giving me issues. |
Omi R.
NRA Certified Instructor
http://www.cwlmiami.com/
NRA Certified Instructor
http://www.cwlmiami.com/
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Pat, Thanks for your time and participation in this thread. I'm finding it extremely helpful as I am attending my first carbine class with LAV this summer, and I want to make sure my ducks are in row. I know how to run my 1911s hard, but really don't have the experience with carbines. This thread has made me look very hard at every aspect of my carbine (unfortunately somewhat of a frankengun) to try to be prepared. I think the last thing anyone wants is a non-functioning rifle after enrolling in a class, and your thoughts have gone a long ways toward eliminating such a scenario. |
Battlepack- Have a great time at class. Many frankenguns will run fine if you use good parts. At c lass last week one guy represented 99% of the gun problems- both rifle and pistol. That heldup the entire class- not a good thing.... |
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Thanks Mr. Rogers Been watching this thread since it started. I have a two day Tactical Carbine Class later on in the year. Great information. My AR is ready, I hope. ZM |
I am registered and paid in full. That class is only put on once a year and is limited to 10 students. OFA is swamped every year. I just missed out last year. I was lucky to get in this year. It filled up a week after I registered. ZM |
I will chime in on this one as well. I ran a frankengun for years with no problems. I have a buddy who ran a frankengun (and still does) with nothing more than a broken bolt (it was waay past time to replace it anyhow). We both are avid shooters and have taken many classes, both one day and two day. If you buy quality parts, take your time building it and do it right, use quality ammo, and for goodness sakes lube it properly you should not have problems (other than Mr. Murphy sticking his head into your business). I had to give the frankengun back to the original owner when I purchased my SLR but I know for a fact I could take it out and shoot it all weekend right now. |
If you think shooting while doing the 'pee-pee' dance is easy - you've got a lot to learn -- Drawcut
| To add to the frankengun comments ... My 7.5" SBR has been flawless through MANY courses and has yet to EVER give me one problem with over 15K rounds through it (just don't try to get it to run on wolf). Granted, the instructors and the guys standing next to me HATE me for using a 7.5" in the class... |
Omi R.
NRA Certified Instructor
http://www.cwlmiami.com/
NRA Certified Instructor
http://www.cwlmiami.com/
| Viscious- The Larue Quad S is very GTG. I have had one since the begining, and we have had a number pass through class. I'd prefer the M4 feedramps as well, but Larue only makes quality kit, and while i despise "Flawless" along with my other anti favorite, "fit and finish", it runs like a sewing machine. |
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I have been doing this going back to the early 80's, so yes, i have had M16's and early G/A/U' in my classes, and i have used these guns in service. But truthfully, on the sliding scale of what is important to me when teaching people how to kill other people, the external appearence of the lower receiver is down there with network news, sitcoms and dancing with old stars. |
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I'd think that they are equally reliable, as long as they are maintained properly. It's just that when your ammo (like Wolf) causes an out-of-battery condition from a dirty chamber, you'll be sidelined longer since you'll have no way to push the BCG into battery. You could just pull the CH also. 
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Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
I don't aspire to mediocrity, so I'll opt for stuff made to a standard.
+1 I've just recently starting lubing my AR with WLG. When applied correctly this stuff is amazing! I've never had ANY of my ARs consistantly fucntion as smooth as they do with WLG. I lubed one before Christmas and left it outside in my shed until the end of january. I took it out and shot about 200 rounds in about 16^F weather without a single problem. Yup I like grease! |
Mr. Rogers, He was asking about the function of M16 upper receivers sans forward assist, not lower receivers sans reinforcement "fences". |
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Good Morning CKJ1 Mr Rogers was my Dad, my name is Pat. I wanted to know if they were as reliable as the upper with FA and shell deflectors Roger, and he clarified what he meant last week. My answer remains the same. We don't teach using the FA under any circumstances. If the round will not chamber on its own, forcing it won't help. In fact, attempting to force a round into the chamber (generally beause the case is damaged/ bad) will only result in a worse problem. Additionally, repeated attempts to chamber the round may be indictive of an obstructed bore, and all you are doing is forcing the obstruction further into the barrel- which will result in a catastrophic failure. I have seen this, and i have experienced it. |
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Thank you for the explanation. I was curious about it too. |
You know, you are the first person I've heard in a very, very long time support this idea. Thank you. With a pistol, a malf gets a TRB. With a rifle, why not the same? I do (TRB a malf). Bottom line: if it doesn't chamber on the first try, it's coming out. And to add to your logic, trying to push a possibly damaged round into the chamber, and then having to TRB, will slow you down more so than just TRBing from the get go; IE longer down time. Sorry for the drift... |
Yeah, it's gonna hurt like that until you pass out. Shouldn't be much longer though.
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Pat, I know what you're saying about not using the FA but I think you just opened a can of worms. I forsee a great demand for slickside uppers in the EE now. I disagree with your position of "under any circumstances". As you know, if you are running dirty or dry, you might need a little tap to seat the round, and the problem will get worse but you can still squeeze out a few more rounds before it starts to really lock up. And I understand that for LE or private citizen there is no excuse for a dirty or dry weapon when you need to deploy it. But my experience is grunt work and I used the FA all the friggin time. I remember a couple times where I was seating the round on every shot. I just didnt have time to look away from my corner. Like I said, I feel ya', I know what you're saying. I just think it's funny when shit like this comes up. We are gonna see threads all over the internet saying "Pat Rogers thinks the FA is worthless!" lol... |
If the gun is dry, it probably needs lube, if its dry and you're having to use the FA then it definitely needs lube. It only takes a couple of seconds to drop some on the bolt on the fly. |
Jesus is gonna talk to us about this
كافر
كافر
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I just ran 560 rounds through my frankengun in just over an hour. Is it safe to assume this gun is good to go for a three day class with a minimum requirement of 1800 rounds? The gun previously had about 500-700 problem free rounds. It has an LMT BCG with an MP tested bolt. ETA: I fired another 500 through it today. That's 1060 in two days. Only 2 minor issues. One is after 710 rounds I hit the bolt release to chamber a round and it did not chamber. I pulled the charging handle back and it worked. The other issue is I lost one of the thumb screws that holds on the DPMS rear sight (it's a fixed position removable A2 sight.) So the comment on the first page about loctiting everything is advice I should have taken. Bottom line: once I replace the missing nut, my gun is ready for class. I will be taking another rifle as back up. |
"You will know you are in a nuclear attack by the bright flash, loud explosion, widespread destruction, intense heat, strong winds and the rising of a mushroom cloud." - Rand Corporation Pocket Edition Survival Guide
There is a term in the Aerospace World for this: Infant Mortality |
Glocktalk, where Airsofters and Farm Animals peacefully co-habitate.
Probably, but as always, 2 is 1, 1 is none. Bring a spare bolt and plenty of magazines, or a 2nd good AR if you have one. |
Jesus is gonna talk to us about this
كافر
كافر
| Going through a week-long course at Blackwater, the only failures were with a Colt, actually. Bushmasters all ran fine. Problem with the Colt was not the Colt's fault, but rather the short barrel config was not setup correctly (failure to extracts/ejects). Otherwise, there were no part problems at all during the week. I still keep spare parts for classes, though. |
Hey now, I know Mr. Rogers was all about kids and his kiddy show, but did you know that he won the congressional medal of honor? An honest to god war hero there! |
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Actually, you are wrong. While he was a Marine, he did not serve overseas. This is just one of a bazillion lies, falsehhods, myths perpetrated on unsuspecting net surfers daily. Try hitting snopes or one of the other urban legends sites for verification before posting. |
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Pat sends
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Pat sends
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im not going to read 10 pages to see if this was mentioned. but for those folks that use "tac" latches on their charging handles, it is a good idea to have a spare CH latch PIN and SPRING. the longer latches put extra shearing forces on the pins, resulting in premature wear and sometimes breakage.....and if you break the pin, you will be losing the spring. find a straight pin or needle that will fit tight inside the roll pin, hammer it in, and snip off the ends. this increases the strength of the pin by what i would imagine to be a factor of 2 at least. |
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Pat, I notice you like Colt for obvious reasons that are well understood. How would you rate a Les Baer or Wilson Combat or new LWRC or POF in regards to the Colt? Have you seen many of these? How do they do? I would like to know because I am going to purchase a "high quality" AR. I have shot Bushy's before but would like to get a serious one. I am not wanting you to tell me what to get only give some direction based on your experiences. colt 6920? or ????? I am not an operator and do not claim to be. I am however like many others here that enjoy the shooting sports and like to remain proficient, and (hopefully not ) if need be to defend my family and only the best quality is good enough for that. thanks. |
I have seen only a very few Wilson's and less Les baers. Those i have seen did not leave a good impression. I have seen several POF guns, one of which went through (i believe) eight of my classes w/o a problems. Others were not as reliable. I am running 3 LWRC guns through a 6 month eval. We have appx 2500 rds through two, and a little over 1000 through the other, so way too early to make an educated decision, but so far so good. I consider Noveske to be high end. I consider Colt to be the standard for service grade and LMT close behind. Hope this helps. I am glad that regardless of MOS, vocation or job description good Americans seek to learn how to use firearms. |
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10 pages into it, one would think the man would have stated that if he was so inclined. It seems like Pat is trying to avoid backing any one, or few, manufacturer(s), and has done his best to help the rest of us in doing so. Get the hint, back off of the man, and take a course if you want the real low-down. |
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