AR Sponsor
Posted: 5/21/2025 7:41:04 PM EDT
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I'm not super new to guns but newer to ARs despite having them since 2017. I've taken a tactical rifle class level 1 so far, and shoot as often as I can. Its not near what I'd like because life gets in the way. I have to rely on public ranges now because my farm was taken via eminent domain. So in ignorance I fumbled around with AR concepts. I started off with 20 inch rifles. I still have the one I assembled from my choosing from Brownell's retro line. I used that rifle in the defensive carbine class I took and noticed short comings in the rifle setup. So I sold off my other 556 rifles and all my milsurp collection because I had more wrapped up in guns than a beginner and practical shooter needed. I standardized my ammo on the M193 because that's what I had the most of and was the cheapest to get. So that brings me to my current rifle with is a Springfield Saint I bought used at a LGS because it seemed like a good deal. I didn't do a build because I knew I didnt have the knowledge to make ideal component choices. I zeroed it and figured out a sling and put a light on it. Eventually once I had enough saved I bought a SLX raptor 1-8 LVPO and zeroed it. I chose it for magnification and reticle. I tried a RRA 2 stage trigger for a bit. It's nice but I don't think for myself that is optimal for a defensive carbine. So the standard trigger is back in it. I keep fucking up the concept I think and have been considering going to am Aimpoint Pro or EOTech 512 or a prism optic because of Astig in both eyes. I want to get away from cheap optics and get something better quality(probably used for my budget). I most recently bought a used DD Omega rail and free floated the barrel. I did notice a difference but it is a small difference. The most difference I notice is in the amount of time practiced and ammo selection. So that is where I am at and I would ask that folks that know better than I and are willing to offer some input on what I should do or change on the rile for an optimal 0-200 yard gun that can go beyond that but isn't focused on being a DMR. Or just leave it alone, rock on, and quit overthinking the whole thing. Sorry for the longwinded post. I hate those posts where OP posts a question without much context. |
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I feel like for general use and 0-200 simpler is better. I also have astigmatism and my go to is a 16” mid length with an acog or an 11.5 pistol with a 2 MOA dot. PA makes good prisms and a that or a good dot with magnifier will give you the most flexibility for cost. But i would honestly save up for the acog and piggyback a dot. Spend the money once and be done. And if you hate it you can recoup a fair amount of the value. |
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Originally Posted By etslick: I feel like for general use and 0-200 simpler is better. I also have astigmatism and my go to is a 16” mid length with an acog or an 11.5 pistol with a 2 MOA dot. PA makes good prisms and a that or a good dot with magnifier will give you the most flexibility for cost. But i would honestly save up for the acog and piggyback a dot. Spend the money once and be done. And if you hate it you can recoup a fair amount of the value. I'd rather buy once and cry at this point. I have done the opposite too much. The ACOG with the RMRHD would be my choice if I had the cash in hand. Is the Omega rail worthwhile in this application or would I be best off going back to the PKMR handgaurd and recouping the Omega rail? Keep the Springfield labeled UTG buis or go for a better sight? Seems like the one the rifle came with could be broken easier than others I have seen out there. |
| Try an ACOG before commiting to one as it will not have an adjustable diopter. I tried my neighbor's and the reticle was just too blurry for me before wearing glasses. Don't want an optic that depends on me having my glasses to use and I can always adjust a diopter to work with corrected and uncorrected vision. |
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Originally Posted By Joedirt199: Try an ACOG before commiting to one as it will not have an adjustable diopter. I tried my neighbor's and the reticle was just too blurry for me before wearing glasses. Don't want an optic that depends on me having my glasses to use and I can always adjust a diopter to work with corrected and uncorrected vision. I have been able to shoot with an ACOG before. I did not have an issue with the reticle. To this day that the best quality optic I have shot on an AR. Between glasses or no glasses my windage shifts about 2 clicks on the scope and BUIS. I can use dots without glasses although they bloom a bit for me. I haven't shot them without glasses to confirm the windage shift. I just got my first dot ever on my Glock. |
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Originally Posted By Rollin20s: I'd rather buy once and cry at this point. I have done the opposite too much. The ACOG with the RMRHD would be my choice if I had the cash in hand. Is the Omega rail worthwhile in this application or would I be best off going back to the PKMR handgaurd and recouping the Omega rail? Keep the Springfield labeled UTG buis or go for a better sight? Seems like the one the rifle came with could be broken easier than others I have seen out there. I wouldn’t change anything else on the gun. Zero the irons and use whatever optic you have until you get what you want. Stack ammo and mags and get to the range and shoot the piss out of it. Unless you are trying to print really tight groups or you need more than 4x for PID for actual use, a red dot or 1-3x prism check a lot of boxes. If acogs are too high the GLX 2x prism or a Sig romeo 7 will give you something well built enough to handle your use. If you were jumping out of airplanes and kicking doors down then I’d have a completely different gun with the best quality optics I’m allowed. Otherwise don’t overthink it. |
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Originally Posted By etslick: I wouldn’t change anything else on the gun. Zero the irons and use whatever optic you have until you get what you want. Stack ammo and mags and get to the range and shoot the piss out of it. Unless you are trying to print really tight groups or you need more than 4x for PID for actual use, a red dot or 1-3x prism check a lot of boxes. If acogs are too high the GLX 2x prism or a Sig romeo 7 will give you something well built enough to handle your use. If you were jumping out of airplanes and kicking doors down then I’d have a completely different gun with the best quality optics I’m allowed. Otherwise don’t overthink it. Prisims would probably be the best choice for me as a go-to considering the astigmatism I have. As a beater/go-to rifle I'd be pissed if I had to use it and the police took it and I never got it back after putting on an ACOG. Maybe the PA prism would be the best balanced choice. Budget has always been a factor with this rifle. |
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I went through all of this, and have the same 0-200 needs you do, mainly based on the physical terrain and forest that I live in. For me the SIG BRAVO 5 was my sweet spot. I now have two of them on different uppers. Could not be happier. Rugged as hell (heavy, that could be a down side to consider) Astigmatism is not an issue with this optic. I cannot use red dots due to the same condition you have. The 5x seemed a bit much but I can use it really close, surprisingly, and as my eyes have devolved, it works much better at distance. There is a 3x variant if you'd like. The glass quality is amazing. Its not terribly expensive, as things go. I shoot under forest cover all the time, so glass quality and light collection is important and this does the trick. The lit recital is rarely used by me (I am fortunate to have good natural low light vision) but in the snow or out on a sandy area in full sunlight, its great. |
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I don't try to make one rifle do all things. ARs are very flexible and there is truckloads of stuff that you can bolt on. Generally just putting stuff on one gun creates a beast that is likely too big and heavy. Take the time to shoot and think about what you really need. Some guys are happy with the one gun , others want at least several different uppers |
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How well can you see at 200yrds? Can I hit a plate at 200yrds with an RDS? Yes. Can I identify a threat (and see what's in their hands) at 200yrds? Maybe??? That's why for me, a Trijicon TR-24 is my preferred solution for a GP rifle. At 1x is almost as fast as a reddot but goes to 4x quickly to help me see what's down range. Great glass, cheaper, lighter and better eye relief than most ACOG's and rugged enough IMO for non-combat work. |
On going to war over religion: "You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." - Richard Jeni
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Those UTG metal sights should be fine, IMO. They're definitely not the best, but certainly not the worst. They're head and shoulders above any polymer sights. For 0-200, any 1X optic would suffice, unless you'd like to make out facial features. At about 200 yards, a person's face is nearly indistinguishable. How's the rifle run otherwise? |
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With the astigmatism I'd definitely recommend a prism optic over any red dot, and if the 1.5x ACOG is too pricey, take a look at the Primary Arms 2x prism. Its great for that range and compensates for the eye issues, plus its smaller, clearer and lighter than the older 2.5x that I have...I love that optic as I beat the shit out of it and it keeps working and stays zeroed. The End Of The World Optic Primary Arm Prism Optics |
Left-handed and right-minded!
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Are you trying to shoot 2 inch groups at 200 yards? M193 probably won't do that. Are you trying to be effective if you get into a fight at 200 yards? Or keep it in the chest of a torso sized target? Damn near anything will do that. You don't need 8x magnification, hell you don't need any at all to do that. You can get small groups with iron sights if you get some training and practice correctly. |
Joined:
Jul 2022
Posts:
21
EE: 0% (0)
NC, USA
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Red dot + magnifier on a QD if you frequently shoot things up close and sometimes far away. LPVO If you enjoy magnification and frequently shoot things far away and sometimes up close. Both will work, both will have their trade offs. I think thats a solid starting point for your decision making though. |
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Thank you everyone for your input, it has been helpful. I have come to the conclusion to take the rifle back to the way it came. I have a light on it with a 2 point sling. Optic wise, I went with a used Aimpoint CompM4 off the EE. I could have saved a bit more money if I got a used PRO, but the battery type is what I decided upon when comparing the two. There was no where local to get batteries for a PRO until the LGS started carrying them recently. Or I only noticed them afterward. I went with Aimpoint over any others because of their quality and used ones were in the budget. In comparing optics, I liked the red dot better than the prisim. An EoTech is a smeary mess without my glasses so that was not an option for me. The dot doesn't bloom out very much despite the astigmatism and is plenty usable without glasses. A dot is good for my local terrain. If I need to reach longer ranges a second upper or AR10 is the way I'd go. I do not have those ranges available to me now so that isn't anytime soon. All the other stuff I added wasn't needed. The rifle has always ran fine, any perceived issue was me. It was all removed and is being liquidated. If I ever get to the point where I'd need to change anything I might just be looking at a higher quality rifle. I don't have the skills where I need that yet. Edit: To add, that I will be sticking with M193 for now. Its abundant and the cheapest. If I could afford it a Mk262 type of ammo would be the way to go for a better group. I'll probably try a few boxes to see what I can do with it. |
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Originally Posted By Rollin20s: Thank you everyone for your input, it has been helpful. I have come to the conclusion to take the rifle back to the way it came. I have a light on it with a 2 point sling. Optic wise, I went with a used Aimpoint CompM4 off the EE. I could have saved a bit more money if I got a used PRO, but the battery type is what I decided upon when comparing the two. There was no where local to get batteries for a PRO until the LGS started carrying them recently. Where is that everyone lives than seemingly cannot locate DL 1/3N batteries? 
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"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
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Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Where is that everyone lives than seemingly cannot locate DL 1/3N batteries? I can't speak for everyone else but I live outside of a small farm town. I don't often venture to the nearest city. I'm sure a few people there have them. Dollar stores and local grocery don't have them and there isn't a camera shop or chain drug store in town. Edit: I'm considering local within a 10 minute drive radius of home. |
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Originally Posted By Rollin20s: I can't speak for everyone else but I live outside of a small farm town. I don't often venture to the nearest city. I'm sure a few people there have them. Dollar stores and local grocery don't have them and there isn't a camera shop or chain drug store in town. Edit: I'm considering local within a 10 minute drive radius of home. Interesting. Every pharmacy/Walmart/grocery store/hardware store and several gas stations here carry them, along with several other outlets (box stores / specialty stores). I guess I've just taken that for granted. Although, our population is near 140K so likely the difference. I've heard several mention them as "hard to find" on several occasions, it always struck me as odd. Either way, the Comp M4 is an excellent optic, and a great choice. Do yourself a favor and run lithium AA batteries, it will save you a shit load of frustration down the road. Alkaline batteries leak, regardless of brand. |
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
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Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Interesting. Every pharmacy/Walmart/grocery store/hardware store and several gas stations here carry them, along with several other outlets (box stores / specialty stores). I guess I've just taken that for granted. Although, our population is near 140K so likely the difference. I've heard several mention them as "hard to find" on several occasions, it always struck me as odd. Either way, the Comp M4 is an excellent optic, and a great choice. Do yourself a favor and run lithium AA batteries, it will save you a shit load of frustration down the road. Alkaline batteries leak, regardless of brand. Thats what the people at Aimpoint told me when I asked them about the optic. I have to go to the nearest Walmart for that its all alkaline around here. There is a small local pharmacy that I forget about all the time. They could have them. I have never been in there. |
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Originally Posted By Rollin20s: Thats what the people at Aimpoint told me when I asked them about the optic. I have to go to the nearest Walmart for that its all alkaline around here. There is a small local pharmacy that I forget about all the time. They could have them. I have never been in there. Amazon, for all things. Its definitely the "easy button. " |
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
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Originally Posted By SyberSniper: If you still have the "standard" trigger in, I would look into replacing it with something better, like a LMT . The RR is also a good one - personally I like 2 stage over 1 stage. The RRA trigger was great. I just thought it may not be the best choice for this rifle given the purpose. I like both single or two stage. Two stage is something I thing I'd want in something more DMR or percision oriented. |
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Originally Posted By Rollin20s: The RRA trigger was great. I just thought it may not be the best choice for this rifle given the purpose. I like both single or two stage. Two stage is something I thing I'd want in something more DMR or percision oriented. Originally Posted By Rollin20s: Originally Posted By SyberSniper: If you still have the "standard" trigger in, I would look into replacing it with something better, like a LMT . The RR is also a good one - personally I like 2 stage over 1 stage. The RRA trigger was great. I just thought it may not be the best choice for this rifle given the purpose. I like both single or two stage. Two stage is something I thing I'd want in something more DMR or percision oriented. Check out the ALG QMS or ACT triggers. I've found them to be great options in a fighting gun. |
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
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The AR platform shines at 0-200 with a red dot Add a x3 magnifier behind it to easily double that distance Barrel and ammo quality does impact accuracy along with trigger and above all… skill Practice practice practice…. Highly recommend Ben Stoeger’s books and videos This is a Geissele 14.5 p&w with Aimpoint Comp M5 on Scalarworks mount and Surefire light Rattle can paint job as its one of my training guns. Attached File |
Surprise, Speed and Violence of Action
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I would swap ammunition for any serious defense use. Mk262 or Horandy TAP 75gr are both good loads. For 0-200 yards I would probably use a 1-6x type optic and keep it set on 1x. You can spin it up if you need more magnification. Realistically you can get by just fine with 1 red dot, acog/prism or 1-x variable. They're all pretty useable at the 0-200 range. I generally use red dots for home defense and then move up to a variable if I will be outside. |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Yep. I order 10 at a time and keep them on hand. Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Amazon, for all things. Its definitely the "easy button. " Likewise. |
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: I would swap ammunition for any serious defense use. Mk262 or Horandy TAP 75gr are both good loads. For 0-200 yards I would probably use a 1-6x type optic and keep it set on 1x. You can spin it up if you need more magnification. Realistically you can get by just fine with 1 red dot, acog/prism or 1-x variable. They're all pretty useable at the 0-200 range. I generally use red dots for home defense and then move up to a variable if I will be outside. I second the 1-6x lpvo. I don't shoot much past 300 yards. |
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Originally Posted By Rollin20s: I'm not super new to guns but newer to ARs despite having them since 2017. I've taken a tactical rifle class level 1 so far, and shoot as often as I can. Its not near what I'd like because life gets in the way. I have to rely on public ranges now because my farm was taken via eminent domain. So in ignorance I fumbled around with AR concepts. I started off with 20 inch rifles. I still have the one I assembled from my choosing from Brownell's retro line. I used that rifle in the defensive carbine class I took and noticed short comings in the rifle setup. So I sold off my other 556 rifles and all my milsurp collection because I had more wrapped up in guns than a beginner and practical shooter needed. I standardized my ammo on the M193 because that's what I had the most of and was the cheapest to get. So that brings me to my current rifle with is a Springfield Saint I bought used at a LGS because it seemed like a good deal. I didn't do a build because I knew I didnt have the knowledge to make ideal component choices. I zeroed it and figured out a sling and put a light on it. Eventually once I had enough saved I bought a SLX raptor 1-8 LVPO and zeroed it. I chose it for magnification and reticle. I tried a RRA 2 stage trigger for a bit. It's nice but I don't think for myself that is optimal for a defensive carbine. So the standard trigger is back in it. I keep fucking up the concept I think and have been considering going to am Aimpoint Pro or EOTech 512 or a prism optic because of Astig in both eyes. I want to get away from cheap optics and get something better quality(probably used for my budget). I most recently bought a used DD Omega rail and free floated the barrel. I did notice a difference but it is a small difference. The most difference I notice is in the amount of time practiced and ammo selection. So that is where I am at and I would ask that folks that know better than I and are willing to offer some input on what I should do or change on the rile for an optimal 0-200 yard gun that can go beyond that but isn't focused on being a DMR. Or just leave it alone, rock on, and quit overthinking the whole thing. Sorry for the longwinded post. I hate those posts where OP posts a question without much context. Hey brother, I am in a similar boat. A Viper PST 1-6 may be a good option. The 1x is crazy close to a red dot and it has a better 6x compared to most magnifiers. 200 yards is still pretty far for a plain dot on smaller size targets. 50+ yards and magnification is very nice to have. Aimpoints are nice at 1-3x but at 5-6x they fall apart to my eyes. Even with very nice magnifiers. |
| You're over thinking it. Shoot the gun you have more. Spend your money on ammo and training. The things people are suggesting will yield only modest improvements over what you have now but at considerable cost. If you wind up with a bunch of money and nothing to do with it, build a new upper. |
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I have a 10.5 i prefer for 75 and under.Also have an a2 20inch i like for beyond 250 with a scope. Have a 16 inch upper coming tomorrow for an eaxtra lower i have and will be my in between gun.M4 style but will be using pop up rear sight front is post.I can shoot the irons on my a2 out to 300 pretty good so 200 will be fine for new one.I nuilt my father in law a 16 inch rifle couple years ago and shot it before i gave it to him and was hitting 200 pretty good.Mostly 10 inch plates. |
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Originally Posted By Rollin20s: I'm not super new to guns but newer to ARs despite having them since 2017. I've taken a tactical rifle class level 1 so far, and shoot as often as I can. Its not near what I'd like because life gets in the way. I have to rely on public ranges now because my farm was taken via eminent domain. So in ignorance I fumbled around with AR concepts. I started off with 20 inch rifles. I still have the one I assembled from my choosing from Brownell's retro line. I used that rifle in the defensive carbine class I took and noticed short comings in the rifle setup. So I sold off my other 556 rifles and all my milsurp collection because I had more wrapped up in guns than a beginner and practical shooter needed. I standardized my ammo on the M193 because that's what I had the most of and was the cheapest to get. So that brings me to my current rifle with is a Springfield Saint I bought used at a LGS because it seemed like a good deal. I didn't do a build because I knew I didnt have the knowledge to make ideal component choices. I zeroed it and figured out a sling and put a light on it. Eventually once I had enough saved I bought a SLX raptor 1-8 LVPO and zeroed it. I chose it for magnification and reticle. I tried a RRA 2 stage trigger for a bit. It's nice but I don't think for myself that is optimal for a defensive carbine. So the standard trigger is back in it. I keep fucking up the concept I think and have been considering going to am Aimpoint Pro or EOTech 512 or a prism optic because of Astig in both eyes. I want to get away from cheap optics and get something better quality(probably used for my budget). I most recently bought a used DD Omega rail and free floated the barrel. I did notice a difference but it is a small difference. The most difference I notice is in the amount of time practiced and ammo selection. So that is where I am at and I would ask that folks that know better than I and are willing to offer some input on what I should do or change on the rile for an optimal 0-200 yard gun that can go beyond that but isn't focused on being a DMR. Or just leave it alone, rock on, and quit overthinking the whole thing. Sorry for the longwinded post. I hate those posts where OP posts a question without much context. For the stated purpose you already have what you need. As a long time user of ACOGs, I can tell you that they are great; but they do lack flexibility. A good 1-6x will do everything you could possibly need out to 200 yards. |
Joined:
Sep 2024
Posts:
16
EE: 100% (2)
NV, USA
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Originally Posted By zoomergunguy: 0-200 with irons or a 1x dot/prism is stupidly easy. Just spend more time training, no need for fancy optics at that range. That depends upon one’s vision and age. When I was younger, I would have said the same thing you’re saying. Now at 47, my eyes have really changed rapidly and magnification is really a must past 100 yds. |
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Originally Posted By zoomergunguy: 0-200 with irons or a 1x dot/prism is stupidly easy. Just spend more time training, no need for fancy optics at that range. Originally Posted By zoomergunguy: 0-200 with irons or a 1x dot/prism is stupidly easy. Just spend more time training, no need for fancy optics at that range. Username fits. Oldest zoomers are 28 years old. Originally Posted By JoshNC: That depends upon one’s vision and age. When I was younger, I would have said the same thing you’re saying. Now at 47, my eyes have really changed rapidly and magnification is really a must past 100 yds. Yup, for most folks, their mid 40's is when the eyes start to go downhill. It sucked having to admit that I needed readers/bifocals and my eyes simply are not what they used to be. I've past 50. A decade ago my eyes were fine. Now.....holy crap. |
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Originally Posted By zoomergunguy: 0-200 with irons or a 1x dot/prism is stupidly easy. Just spend more time training, no need for fancy optics at that range. I don't know about this. Young eyes or not, it's going to be largely dependent upon your environment. If all you're doing is shooting on a flat range where your target is clearly visible, this can arguably be done with open sights. You toss in vegetation, shadows, lack of contrast and less than perfect light and being able to find your target, much less shoot it, becomes an issue. |
Joined:
Sep 2022
Posts:
158
EE: 0% (0)
TX, USA
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I don't think there's enough quality difference between the 1.5x ACOG and the two 1x prism options from Primary Arms, both of which are significantly cheaper. The 1.5 ACOG is quite good, I just feel that it's too expensive for what it is. If it's buy once, cry once, also consider an Eotech, which won't be affected by your astigmatism. They always look a bit blurry in daylight whether or not you have an astigmatism, just an fyi. It's just how they are, but the more I've used one, the more it grew on me as an outstanding choice for a 0-200 rifle. You can always add the 3x or 5x magnifier to get some magnification. For triggers, if you didn't like the 2-stage, then I fully endorse something like a CMC 2.5 or 3.5 pound single stage cassette trigger. Takes like 5 minutes to install and I've put over 3,000 rounds through the rifle I have with one with zero issues, and a whole lot of those were suppressed. In general, I believe strongly in suppressors, and suppressors are easier to use in tactical situations on shorter rifles like an 11.5. When you put one on a 14.5 or longer, you do feel the weight and it slows your target transitions because the physics of momentum further from the pivot point are undeniable. I have a Huxwrx 762 and on my 8" 300blk it feels natural, but on my 13.9 pin and weld, it's very noticeable. (Yeah, yeah, I need to finally bite the bullet and buy a lightweight dedicated 556 can) |
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: 0-200? High quality 11.5” to 16” with a decent red dot, which light and sling. Why are you overthinking this? This. Your application doesn’t need anything complicated. Hell, I’m more than comfortable with my 7” .300BLK out to 200y on man size targets with nothing but an RDS when I’m shooting supers. |
Joined:
Sep 2022
Posts:
159
EE: 0% (0)
TX, USA
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Originally Posted By WUPHF: This. Your application doesn’t need anything complicated. Hell, I’m more than comfortable with my 7” .300BLK out to 200y on man size targets with nothing but an RDS when I’m shooting supers. I did some 100 yard tests with my 8" 300BLK using cheap AAC 125g supers and my 1x prism, and I was pleasantly surprised by how tight the groups were. I need to take it out to a 200 yard range to see what the drop looks like. I wish it was a bit cheaper to shoot that gun, because 8" with a 10.7" handguard and tucked suppressor has the same hand position as my 13.9" 556 main rifle and it's so pleasant to handle. |
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