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Posted: 5/13/2025 12:51:12 PM EDT
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Alright... I get tons of mixed answers when I research.... from tons of various sources that one would think might be aligned. So, I'll ask here.... If the AR Pistol... has an OAL of 26" NOT INCLUDING the muzzle device or brace (ONLY the 7.25" lower receiver extension is counting here)... can you put a vertical foregrip on it? |
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Originally Posted By OmegamanX: A pistol is still a pistol, so I don't think you can! You can have a long barreled pistol that totals over 26", but it's still a pistol! So no handgrip on the front. I get lots of "think"... but find no substance other than "26 inches is the cutoff". It's maddening.. and even moreso.. when this is ATF rules and interpretations.. and not legislation. See my conundrum? |
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Originally Posted By BigHunt: Yes. Anything over 26" is no longer considered "concealable upon the person" and is therefore a "Firearm" under federal law and is no longer a pistol. So... what does that mean? Does that mean I CAN... or CANNOT... put the vertical grip on my PSA 11.5 stealth pistol w/ brace and it still be a pistol and run the brace? Please.. .I'm beggin... talk to me like I'm 4. LOL |
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Originally Posted By AGospelofFireandIron: So... what does that mean? Does that mean I CAN... or CANNOT... put the vertical grip on my PSA 11.5 stealth pistol w/ brace and it still be a pistol and run the brace? Please.. .I'm beggin... talk to me like I'm 4. LOL Safest bet would be to use something like the BCM slightly angled grip. No one really uses the grip as a full grip anymore anyway, just more as a hand stop. |
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Originally Posted By BigHunt: Yes. Anything over 26" is no longer considered "concealable upon the person" and is therefore a "Firearm" under federal law and is no longer a pistol. Technically it's still a handgun until it's no longer designed to be fired with the use of a single hand. Being over 26" without a stock simply keeps it non-NFA. |
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Sorry OP, but anyone who puts their freedom and/or treasure on the line based on internet legal opinions deserves whatever happens to them. My advice: consult an attorney or contact the ATF and get an answer in writing. Being cheap and lazy has its risks. Don’t be either. . |
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Originally Posted By AGospelofFireandIron: If the AR Pistol... has an OAL of 26" NOT INCLUDING the muzzle device or brace (ONLY the 7.25" lower receiver extension is counting here)... can you put a vertical foregrip on it? If you put a VFG on said pistol, it will no longer be a pistol, but rather it will be an non-NFA "firearm" as defined by law. The reason it is not considered an AOW is because it being over 26" the ATF considers it "not concealable" and thus not under the AOW definition. If you take the VFG back off, it returns to legally being a "pistol" again. |
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Originally Posted By BigHunt: Yes. Anything over 26" is no longer considered "concealable upon the person" and is therefore a "Firearm" under federal law and is no longer a pistol. Jesus no. Once you put a VFG on it, then it's no longer a pistol. But a 30" handgun is - still a handgun under Federal law. |
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Originally Posted By OmegamanX: A pistol is still a pistol, so I don't think you can! You can have a long barreled pistol that totals over 26", but it's still a pistol! So no handgrip on the front.  A pistol can be converted to any number of Title 1 and Title 2 firearms and revert to a pistol - but while in the configuration of a different Title 1 firearm, it is that type of firearm. OP, an "Other" firearm is at least 26" long, may be made from an "Other" firearm (receiver) or a handgun. If your AR pistol is at least 26" long, not including the pistol brace and non-pinned & welded muzzle device, then yes, you may add a vertical forward grip. ETA: Legal transitions under the NFA & GCA of 1968, assuming you add parts sufficient to make the configurations below: Pistol > rifle > pistol Pistol > shotgun > pistol Pistol > "other" > pistol Rifle > shotgun > rifle Rifle > SBR > rifle Shotgun > 18" barreled "other" (Pistol grip smoothbore) "other" > shotgun > "other" Lower > pistol > rifle > pistol Lower > rifle > shotgun > rifle Non-legal transitions: Rifle > pistol Shotgun > sub 18" barreled "other" Rifle > unstamped SBR Shotgun > unstamped SBS Lower > rifle > pistol |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Jesus no. Once you put a VFG on it, then it's no longer a pistol. But a 30" handgun is - still a handgun under Federal law. Originally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By BigHunt: Yes. Anything over 26" is no longer considered "concealable upon the person" and is therefore a "Firearm" under federal law and is no longer a pistol. Jesus no. Once you put a VFG on it, then it's no longer a pistol. But a 30" handgun is - still a handgun under Federal law. So, there's a couple things that are touched on here that are related fairly closely conceptually, but not legally as tightly. The " 26" rule ": Title 26 U.S. Code § 5845 - subsection (a) defines NFA firearms -- rifle ("short barreled rifle/sbr"), shotgun ("short barreled shotgun/sbs"), weapons made from rifles and shotguns, any other weapons (AOWs), machine guns, silencers, and destructive devices. Those definitions for SBRs and SBSs use 26" OAL/16" BBL as the cutoff for NFA regulation. There's a common misconception that a pistol with an OAL > 26" or barrel > 16" stops being a pistol. As stated by backbencher, length has no place in the definition of a pistol. A pistol's definition involves it being designed to be shot one handed. Adding a vertical foregrip makes it designed to be shot with two hands, and it no longer meets the definition of a pistol. A stock makes it designed to be shot from the shoulder, which makes it a rifle, which makes it not a pistol. Subsection (e), definition of "Any Other Weapon", includes first, "any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive". Unlike the definitions of shotgun and rifle, it does not specify it fires a projectile. It is agnostic to the presence rifling. More or less, if it doesn't fit "pistol", "rifle", or "shotgun", or fit a different NFA firearm category, it falls into this category. (The definition ALSO includes other fancy shotgun-related configurations that aren't relevant to this conversation.) AOW's definition carves out some exclusions by stating, "Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition". So, despite being concealable, pistols can't be AOWs, nor can short muzzle-loading rifles & shotguns (<26" OAL and/or 16"/18" BBL). Rifle and shotgun definitions, likewise, exclude muzzleloaders and other non-"fixed ammunition" firearms. "Any other weapon" was an intended catch all for other NFA firearm configurations, but the wording is highly imperfect due to, frankly, politics and politicians. So it goes. There's no law that 26" makes a weapon non-concealable. If you carry your 26.5" non-NFA "firearm" under your trench coat, it becomes an NFA AOW by virtue of you concealing it. But if you carry your 26" pistol under your trench coat, federally speaking, it's still just a pistol -- some state laws vastly differ on whether that's legal, and some states change firearm classifications for state law purposes based on different criteria. The angled foregrip, by federal caselaw and ATF rulings, is not considered the same as a vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip vs an angled foregrip or rail grips has been FEDERALLY held to be the sufficient difference in whether a handgrip indicates two handed usage is intended. This differentiation based on the foregrip angle/style could change if ATF rules/rulings change, or if caselaw changes based on court rulings. Again, state laws can define and criminalize these things completely differently. |
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Originally Posted By ForwardResist: Sorry OP, but anyone who puts their freedom and/or treasure on the line based on internet legal opinions deserves whatever happens to them. My advice: consult an attorney or contact the ATF and get an answer in writing. Being cheap and lazy has its risks. Don’t be either. . Maybe the worst advice that will be given on the internet today. |
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Alright.... I think it clicked and I now am conceptualizing the disconnect I had. Next question: HOW angled does it have to be? Will this work: https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-vertical-grip-mod-3-m-lok-compatible-black/ thanks! You guys are the best and I knew one of you would say something that made this congeal for me. |
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OP, how long is your AR pistol? If you're a free men do wtf they want guy, then just buy a vertical grip and mount it. If you're trying to stay legal, don't fuck around, that is sold as a Vertical forward grip. It's in the description on the website. If you want to win a sterling victory at the Supreme Court that 89 degrees is not vertical, then that is the grip for you. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, how long is your AR pistol? If you're a free men do wtf they want guy, then just buy a vertical grip and mount it. If you're trying to stay legal, don't fuck around, that is sold as a Vertical forward grip. It's in the description on the website. If you want to win a sterling victory at the Supreme Court that 89 degrees is not vertical, then that is the grip for you. 26.25" from threads to the end of the lower receiver extension/buffer tube. |
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Originally Posted By AGospelofFireandIron: 26.25" from threads to the end of the lower receiver extension/buffer tube. Originally Posted By AGospelofFireandIron: Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, how long is your AR pistol? If you're a free men do wtf they want guy, then just buy a vertical grip and mount it. If you're trying to stay legal, don't fuck around, that is sold as a Vertical forward grip. It's in the description on the website. If you want to win a sterling victory at the Supreme Court that 89 degrees is not vertical, then that is the grip for you. 26.25" from threads to the end of the lower receiver extension/buffer tube. So just put a vertical forward grip on it. Poof! It's an other. Take it off. Poof! It's a pistol again. Perfectly legal in most of the free states. |
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Originally Posted By AGospelofFireandIron: It's just that simple, huh. Once again, I made a mountain sized mole hill here.  Thanks. Gun control laws are intentionally ambiguous and confusing to deter you from exercising your 2nd Amendment rights. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Gun control laws are intentionally ambiguous and confusing to deter you from exercising your 2nd Amendment rights. And they're written by weaselly politicians, many of whom lack full knowledge of the subject matter they are legislating, most whom care more about the next election cycle than any legal document in the history of this country, and all of whom are subject to the same increase in human failings we all are when working extended periods in adversarial conditions under the unrelenting stress of input from so many competing interests while writing legislation. Sure thing, there's a faction that doesn't want you to exercise your rights. But that's only the beginning...the obvious part. |
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