AR Sponsor
Posted: 1/15/2025 9:55:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: IDMilton][Edited]
|
I know the information is probably somewhere here but I can’t find it and I’ve googled it and I have searched the ATF site. Let’s say someone had a pistol lower with a SB4 brace and wanted to put an upper with a 12.3 inch barrel on it. This would bring the overall length from the buffer tube to the end of the barrel to about 26 1/2 inches. If I’m understanding what I’m reading correctly, because it’s over 26 inches it’s now an “other firearm“. Does this mean that it cannot have a brace on it since it’s no longer a pistol? Would it mean that since it’s not a pistol, it can now have a vertical foregrip? And since it’s not a pistol, can I put a rifle scope on it? Thanks for any help. And if you happen to have the ATF source, I would like to be able to print it out and throw it in the gun case. |
Joined:
May 2023
Posts:
145
EE: 0% (0)
WI, USA
|
Originally Posted By IDMilton: [...]This would bring the overall length from the buffer tube to the end of the barrel to about 26 1/2 inches. If I’m understanding what I’m reading correctly, because it’s over 26 inches it’s now an “other firearm“. Does this mean that it cannot have a brace on it since it’s no longer a pistol? Would it mean that since it’s not a pistol, it can now have a vertical foregrip? Thanks for any help. And if you happen to have the ATF source, I would like to be able to print it out and throw it in the gun case. First, 26 U.S. Code § 5845 does not define pistol or handgun. It defines what IS covered by the NFA, and gives qualifications/definitions for: SBR, SBS, AOW, DD, Silencer, machine gun, and destructive device weapon types. 18 U.S. Code § 921 defines firearm types and for "rifle" "shotgun" and "handgun" doesn't include lengths in the definitions. (It does to distinguish when they become "short barreled" versions.) Handguns are defined simply by "a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand". As long as your design has no provisions for a second hand to hold it (vertical foregrip), a pistol it remains. The vertical foregrip removes it from the pistol category. Because of the lack of stock, it isn't a rifle (SBR or otherwise). Because of the length > 26" it isn't an "AOW". This leaves it as being a "firearm" without a specific type. Braces can go on anything, as they are not mentioned in law. They are used on pistols only because stocks make the same gun a rifle or shotgun. Federally speaking, yes, if your firearm is over 26", it may have a vertical foregrip, and then is no longer a pistol, but simply a "firearm". My understanding is a 26"+ pistol with no vertical foregrip (or other feature qualifying it as an NFA category) is still just a pistol. The length question only comes into play when other features, like a vertical foregrip are added, and it falls into a different category. Be careful with the word "other", as "any other weapon" is an NFA category - a stockless firearm which includes a vertical foregrip and is UNDER 26" OAL. The 26" question for a stockless rifle-barreled firearm (a pistol) is only is of for determining if it is an AOW. AOW is a tricky category. IF you take your 26"+ "firearm" with no stock and a vertical foregrip, and you hide it under your trench coat, you just concealed it, and an AOW can ALSO be created if a weapon is concealable, regardless of length. So, a 26.5" AR w/o stock, but w/vertical foregrip is just a federally unregulated "firearm" under the NFA. If you hide it under your trenchcoat, you now are carrying an unregistered AOW prohibited by the NFA as it is now "concealable". Beyond federal law, this status change can affect if and/or how a firearm is dealt with by state laws, which may be different. (E.G., concealed carry laws, like WI, only include handguns, but not a weapon over 26".) Double check your state laws, and consult with a real firearms lawyer if you can't read the referenced sections of law and come to the same conclusions. I'm not a lawyer. |
|
Originally Posted By IDMilton: I know the information is probably somewhere here but I can’t find it and I’ve googled it and I have searched the ATF site. Let’s say someone had a pistol lower with a SB4 brace and wanted to put an upper with a 12.3 inch barrel on it. This would bring the overall length from the buffer tube to the end of the barrel to about 26 1/2 inches. If I’m understanding what I’m reading correctly, because it’s over 26 inches it’s now an “other firearm“. Does this mean that it cannot have a brace on it since it’s no longer a pistol? Would it mean that since it’s not a pistol, it can now have a vertical foregrip? And since it’s not a pistol, can I put a rifle scope on it? Thanks for any help. And if you happen to have the ATF source, I would like to be able to print it out and throw it in the gun case. When you add a VFG it converts from a "pistol" (fired with one hand) to a weapon that is intended to be fired with two hands. Therefore it is no longer a "pistol". You can put a brace on it. You can put a scope on it. And, for gawdsake do not send AFT a letter.... |
|
Originally Posted By PreacherOfGadget: Federally speaking, yes, if your firearm is over 26", it may have a vertical foregrip, and then is no longer a pistol, but simply a "firearm". My understanding is a 26"+ pistol with no vertical foregrip (or other feature qualifying it as an NFA category) is still just a pistol. Except when the manufacturer says its a rifle, and pays the excise tax on it as a rifle. Like the OEM rifles from colt, anderson, aero precision, etc. They ship with a long barrel, over 26" length, and no stock. You'd think they would qualify as a pistol, but they transfer as a rifle and somebody 18yr old can have one transferred at their FFL. The other thing OP needs to worry about are local laws. Some states have their own stupid rules around firearms and that magic 26" number. VFG + brace is kosher as far as uncle sam is concerned, but may not be according to the state. |
|
Assuming it was a legit pistoled lower. +26" with a brace and a 90 degree VFG would be legal on a Federal level. It is an non-NFA other, I think either MASS or CT or NJ that used to allow for that specific combo. Troy used to make that weapon. It was called the A4 Other. https://elite-noire.com/2a-video/troy-industries-a4-other-review |
Joined:
May 2023
Posts:
150
EE: 0% (0)
WI, USA
|
Originally Posted By giantpune: Except when the manufacturer says its a rifle, and pays the excise tax on it as a rifle. Like the OEM rifles from colt, anderson, aero precision, etc. They ship with a long barrel, over 26" length, and no stock. You'd think they would qualify as a pistol, but they transfer as a rifle and somebody 18yr old can have one transferred at their FFL. Originally Posted By giantpune: Except when the manufacturer says its a rifle, and pays the excise tax on it as a rifle. Like the OEM rifles from colt, anderson, aero precision, etc. They ship with a long barrel, over 26" length, and no stock. You'd think they would qualify as a pistol, but they transfer as a rifle and somebody 18yr old can have one transferred at their FFL. Yes. The full phrase, in law, included in both shotgun and rifle definitions is: 26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions [...]a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive[...] By completing the firearm and selling it as a rifle, the manufacturer has "designed" and "intended" it to be "fired" from the shoulder. Legal declarations carry weight, as long as they're valid. Without an upper, the lower wouldn't yet be validly designed to be "fired" at all. OP mentioned a pistol, so I was only addressing that initially. |
|
You might have all things correct too, you may even have just a regular pistol with a brace, or even a normal carbine, but it has "auto" marked on it, but still get charged by a Cop that doesn't know any better and a lawyer that feels like learning these details is way more work than just getting your charge reduced to a 3rd degree felony (lawyers are lazy and really just represent their own interests of money and leverage, favors etc that help them somehow) And then you get a judge that also doesn't feel like being educated about this shit and doesn't understand why anyone needs more than 5 rounds to kill a deer or a "weapon of war" . Luckily your bail bondsman is more than happy to take your soul, but your employer isn't really happy about you being on emergency leave while he reads about your arrest and now you are no longer employed. But hey, we know it's legal and I'm sure you'll fight it and win with a jury of people that are up on these obscure rules that your lawyer never even brought up and you'll never plea to something you didn't do... |
|
Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: You might have all things correct too, you may even have just a regular pistol with a brace, or even a normal carbine, but it has "auto" marked on it, but still get charged by a Cop that doesn't know any better and a lawyer that feels like learning these details is way more work than just getting your charge reduced to a 3rd degree felony (lawyers are lazy and really just represent their own interests of money and leverage, favors etc that help them somehow) And then you get a judge that also doesn't feel like being educated about this shit and doesn't understand why anyone needs more than 5 rounds to kill a deer or a "weapon of war" . Luckily your bail bondsman is more than happy to take your soul, but your employer isn't really happy about you being on emergency leave while he reads about your arrest and now you are no longer employed. But hey, we know it's legal and I'm sure you'll fight it and win with a jury of people that are up on these obscure rules that your lawyer never even brought up and you'll never plea to something you didn't do... I don't understand the point you are attempting. The reason we fought and won over braces and bumpstocks and such is because the issues were forced and people got tired of backing down. It is either legal, or it isn't....and by the books....it is legal. The particular set-up he wants it the only way folks in some states can have AR's. |
|
Originally Posted By panthermark: I don't understand the point you are attempting. The reason we fought and won over braces and bumpstocks and such is because the issues were forced and people got tired of backing down. It is either legal, or it isn't....and by the books....it is legal. The particular set-up he wants it the only way folks in some states can have AR's. Originally Posted By panthermark: Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: You might have all things correct too, you may even have just a regular pistol with a brace, or even a normal carbine, but it has "auto" marked on it, but still get charged by a Cop that doesn't know any better and a lawyer that feels like learning these details is way more work than just getting your charge reduced to a 3rd degree felony (lawyers are lazy and really just represent their own interests of money and leverage, favors etc that help them somehow) And then you get a judge that also doesn't feel like being educated about this shit and doesn't understand why anyone needs more than 5 rounds to kill a deer or a "weapon of war" . Luckily your bail bondsman is more than happy to take your soul, but your employer isn't really happy about you being on emergency leave while he reads about your arrest and now you are no longer employed. But hey, we know it's legal and I'm sure you'll fight it and win with a jury of people that are up on these obscure rules that your lawyer never even brought up and you'll never plea to something you didn't do... I don't understand the point you are attempting. The reason we fought and won over braces and bumpstocks and such is because the issues were forced and people got tired of backing down. It is either legal, or it isn't....and by the books....it is legal. The particular set-up he wants it the only way folks in some states can have AR's. I guess my point is that the fight IS never over and the system is against us. So don't think it is in the bag just because you did your research and you think you are within compliance. The system can screw you just the same, so be ready to roll with this info. Sitting in jail trying to recall it to your lawyer that doesn't care won't help, but it would be good to have this info saved in a draft email that is quick to find. |
|
Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: You might have all things correct too, you may even have just a regular pistol with a brace, or even a normal carbine, but it has "auto" marked on it, but still get charged by a Cop that doesn't know any better and a lawyer that feels like learning these details is way more work than just getting your charge reduced to a 3rd degree felony (lawyers are lazy and really just represent their own interests of money and leverage, favors etc that help them somehow) And then you get a judge that also doesn't feel like being educated about this shit and doesn't understand why anyone needs more than 5 rounds to kill a deer or a "weapon of war" . Luckily your bail bondsman is more than happy to take your soul, but your employer isn't really happy about you being on emergency leave while he reads about your arrest and now you are no longer employed. But hey, we know it's legal and I'm sure you'll fight it and win with a jury of people that are up on these obscure rules that your lawyer never even brought up and you'll never plea to something you didn't do... 
|
|
Whatever indeed. In 1990 I got pulled over in VA for rolling through a stop sign ( coming out of a parking lot late at night). My registration had VOL noted as the make. I was driving a Volkswagen, never paid attention to it. In VA that's a Volvo. Cops starts grilling me about a Volvo, had no idea what he was talking about about and was laughing at the absurdity and said it was obviously an error. He's pissed. I get charged with "forged license plates" among other things. Class 1 misdemeanor in VA. $5000 and 1 year in jail. Once I get it corrected at DMV, court clerk doesn't care, "tell it to the judge". In the end it gets dismissed by the judge, 6 months without my car which is impounded, cost me over $4000 in lawyer fees, additional court costs too for something that wasn't my fault. He didn't dismiss the moving violation. Had to borrow money I didn't have, 4k wasn't chump change back then. Lost my job, ruined my credit. Be careful out there! |
Joined:
May 2023
Posts:
159
EE: 0% (0)
WI, USA
|
@gurn-blanston -- I see that you're still going. I think the reactions to you are because you are giving a broad, rambling, anti-government-abuse rant in response to a very technical legal question. Everyone in the room gets your point, probably agrees with your point, but doesn't see why you're bringing it up and now beating it to death in response to a question involving legal terminology and manufacturing/assembly process. You're kinda off topic, and not in a concise or entertaining way. If there's specific laws or rulings the OP should know about, or specific jurisdictions that are known for handling weapons cases pertaining to this type of a build in a certain way, then please write more. Your issue with the DMV and state courts sucks and represents a sadly common class of government malfunction, but is a bit far afield of a question about vertical foregrips and weapon lengths and classifications. |
|
Originally Posted By PreacherOfGadget: @gurn-blanston -- I see that you're still going. I think the reactions to you are because you are giving a broad, rambling, anti-government-abuse rant in response to a very technical legal question. Everyone in the room gets your point, probably agrees with your point, but doesn't see why you're bringing it up and now beating it to death in response to a question involving legal terminology and manufacturing/assembly process. You're kinda off topic, and not in a concise or entertaining way. If there's specific laws or rulings the OP should know about, or specific jurisdictions that are known for handling weapons cases pertaining to this type of a build in a certain way, then please write more. Your issue with the DMV and state courts sucks and represents a sadly common class of government malfunction, but is a bit far afield of a question about vertical foregrips and weapon lengths and classifications. Understood, my apologies for getting off topic. |
|
Originally Posted By PreacherOfGadget: @gurn-blanston -- I see that you're still going. I think the reactions to you are because you are giving a broad, rambling, anti-government-abuse rant in response to a very technical legal question. Everyone in the room gets your point, probably agrees with your point, but doesn't see why you're bringing it up and now beating it to death in response to a question involving legal terminology and manufacturing/assembly process. You're kinda off topic, and not in a concise or entertaining way. If there's specific laws or rulings the OP should know about, or specific jurisdictions that are known for handling weapons cases pertaining to this type of a build in a certain way, then please write more. Your issue with the DMV and state courts sucks and represents a sadly common class of government malfunction, but is a bit far afield of a question about vertical foregrips and weapon lengths and classifications. You must be a preacher for more than just gadgets. That was well said. 
|
|
Originally Posted By giantpune: Except when the manufacturer says its a rifle, and pays the excise tax on it as a rifle. Like the OEM rifles from colt, anderson, aero precision, etc. They ship with a long barrel, over 26" length, and no stock. You'd think they would qualify as a pistol, but they transfer as a rifle and somebody 18yr old can have one transferred at their FFL. What the manufacturer says is irrelevant. It either meets the definition of pistol, rifle, etc in federal law or it doesn't. The "Colt OEM" does not meet the definition of "rifle", never has. It is a barreled receiver, arguably a pistol. But definitely not a rifle. If it was designed to be fired from the shoulder, it would have a shoulder stock, it doesn't. Hence, not transferable to anyone under age 21. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: Whatever indeed. In 1990 I got pulled over in VA for rolling through a stop sign ( coming out of a parking lot late at night). My registration had VOL noted as the make. I was driving a Volkswagen, never paid attention to it. In VA that's a Volvo. Cops starts grilling me about a Volvo, had no idea what he was talking about about and was laughing at the absurdity and said it was obviously an error. He's pissed. I get charged with "forged license plates" among other things. Class 1 misdemeanor in VA. $5000 and 1 year in jail. Once I get it corrected at DMV, court clerk doesn't care, "tell it to the judge". In the end it gets dismissed by the judge, 6 months without my car which is impounded, cost me over $4000 in lawyer fees, additional court costs too for something that wasn't my fault. He didn't dismiss the moving violation. Had to borrow money I didn't have, 4k wasn't chump change back then. Lost my job, ruined my credit. Be careful out there! Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: Whatever indeed. In 1990 I got pulled over in VA for rolling through a stop sign ( coming out of a parking lot late at night). My registration had VOL noted as the make. I was driving a Volkswagen, never paid attention to it. In VA that's a Volvo. Cops starts grilling me about a Volvo, had no idea what he was talking about about and was laughing at the absurdity and said it was obviously an error. He's pissed. I get charged with "forged license plates" among other things. Class 1 misdemeanor in VA. $5000 and 1 year in jail. Once I get it corrected at DMV, court clerk doesn't care, "tell it to the judge". In the end it gets dismissed by the judge, 6 months without my car which is impounded, cost me over $4000 in lawyer fees, additional court costs too for something that wasn't my fault. He didn't dismiss the moving violation. Had to borrow money I didn't have, 4k wasn't chump change back then. Lost my job, ruined my credit. Be careful out there! Post pics of your D9 |
Magadonia
|
Originally Posted By Bhart89: Post pics of your D9 Ha! Nope, no D9. I couldn't beat them so I joined them. 25+ years in govt, LE and other stuff.. Saw way worse done to people than my DMV escapade. Seriously though. If you are going to dable in the fringe of these rules and push the legal limits, keep the info above posted by @PreacherofGadget handy, electronically or in your safe, gun case etc. Most enforcement people have no idea. |
AR Sponsor