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Posted: 8/20/2008 12:21:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: --bullseye--][Edited]
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Well, I decided to put together a test to see if PRVI M193 would fragment. I have seen one or two threads here saying that PRVI actually did not fully fragment in water, so I was hoping to find out if this was true for myself. My brother (also an arfcommer) and I put together a plywood box and lined up some plastic crates in it. We lined the crates with garbage bags, and used a hose to fill them with water. The crates each provided a distance of about 13 inches that the bullet could pass through, with minor gaps between crates. Pic below. Pictures moved to second post of thread for easier reading on 15" screens; please scroll down to see the pics. We decided to run the test at a distance of seven yards (21 feet) from muzzle to target. I know this is rather close, but I figured it would accurately represent a home defense scenario distance (home defense being the most likely scenario any of us would ever use an AR- and a rather remote possibility at that). For a rifle we selected my brothers S&W M&P 16" carbine. The barrels twist rate is 1:9. I run a 1:7 CMMG middy personally, but we both figured a 1:9 16" barrel is one of the most common home defense ARs out there, so we ran with that. Weather was nice, sunny with few clouds. Not overly humid (guessing mid 40% RH). Temp was right around 75 degree F. I'm sitting at an elevation right around 1200 feet above sea level. First up we thought we should test out something that we knew would fragment. Federal XM193A. My brother had bought a couple cans of this stripper clipped ammo from Jason last year, and graciously lent a couple rounds for the test.  Lot number was SMQ07K037-180. Brass was LC 07.After a shot to get sighting at this close of a range figured out, we blasted the the water filled crates with a round of XM193A. The bullets jacket peeled back nicely, emanating from the cannelure. Lead "specks" were scattered throughout the water. The main portion of the bullet (most of the jacket with lead left in the tip) penetrated far into the second crate; we found it resting 23"-24" from the entry point. Due to time constraints, I wasn't able to gather up every lead particle from the now perforated garbage bags, but I did grab the jacket fragment, and some of the lead. Pic below. Picture moved to second post of thread for easier reading on 15" screens; please scroll down to see the pics. Next up was the '08 PRVI. I just got this from Wideners a few weeks ago. Headstamp PPU 08. Lot number was PPU 0803-04. Same distance, same rifle, crates lined with new bags, and filled with water. First shot went OK, we recovered the lower jacket and lead fragments. Unfortunately the shot was a little high and the bullet tip had apparently broken off and yawed out of the open topped testing rig; lost. We cleaned up the box, reset the crates, and this time set a piece of plywood over the crates hoping to keep everything in the box. This shot went better. As before, the jacket from the cannelure and below had broken off, and straightened out. It was recovered about 20" in (forgot to take an exact measurement). The bullet tip once again broke off yawed out of the water. We were now running the tests with just three crates (as we now knew the bullets were only penetrating two). The bullet tip had been contained by the new plywood cover, and it was found laying in the back of the box were the fourth crate had been. It had not penetrated the third crates bag; it must have flown over it and bounced down into the back of the box. Lead particles were found throughout the first two garbage bags. Pic of recovered fragments below. Pictures moved to second post of thread for easier reading on 15" screens; please scroll down to see the pics. Verdict? I'd say they both would mess someone up pretty good. UPDATE: '07 PRVI M193 TEST Got a chance to test the '07 PRVI M193 that I have. This was bought from AIM this spring. It has an '07 headstamp. Lot number is PPU 0707-03. Test conditions were almost identical to the last round of testing. Temperature was about 75 degrees F today. Set up 3 plastic crates lined with garbage bags and filled them with water. Fired one round into the the water- distance was 21 feet (7 yards) from muzzle to first crate. 16" barrel 1:9 twist S&W M&P carbine was the test rifle. Fragmentation seems to have actually happened sooner than with the '08 PRVI. The lower jacket fragment was found at the back of the first crate (it was found in the second crate during the '08 PRVI test). The bullet tip stayed in the water this time (the '08 PRVI's tip had flown out of the water. I was aiming a little lower in the water with the '07 than with the '08 test; that might explain it). The bullet tip was found about 23-24" into the water. Lead fragments were spread between first and second crates. Found a few lead fragments between the first and second crates but since I couldn't be 100% certain they were from this test I did not include them in the picture. Picture added to the second post of this thread. So it looks like '07 PRVI fragments (at least this lot). |
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The test box. (This was our first try, air gaps were reduced in subsequent tests). '07 Federal XM193A  '08 PRVI M193  '07 PRVI M193 
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"Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did, however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones." Dwight Schrute ('The Office')
I've also got some '07 PRVI sealed up that I got from AIM earlier this year. Once I get a chance to run to Sam's Club to buy a case of garbage bags I should be back with more info... 
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"Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did, however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones." Dwight Schrute ('The Office')
| This makes me feel slightly better about the 2K of '07 Prvi I have. |
Now some men like the fishin’ and some men like the fowlin',
and some men like ta hear, the cannon ball a roarin'.
Me? I like sleepin', especially in my Molly's chamber.
But here I am in prison, here I am with ball and chain, yeah.
and some men like ta hear, the cannon ball a roarin'.
Me? I like sleepin', especially in my Molly's chamber.
But here I am in prison, here I am with ball and chain, yeah.
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I would imagine performance to actually be better on living things, as the elastomasteric properties of skin (vs. Sam's Club Garbage bags) provide much more resistance and shear forces to projectiles. This is why with game often shot with rapidly expanding projectiles, you can recover the slug under the skin on the far side and is visibly seen as a lump. It stretches the second skin encountered, but does not have the energy left (given the expanded state) to penetrate it. Bodies, while 90% water, have another 10% consisting of tissues of various densities and bone. I plan on using some PPU M193 for hogs and coyotes later this winter. Necropsies will be documented. |
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The 07 XM193 is Federal ammo made here in the USA. It's rejected or cancelled military ammo(I don't think anyone really knows for sure why all this XM193 ammo flooded the market) The 08 M193 Prvi Partizan ammo is made in Serbia. I was refering to the 07 M193 Prvi Partizan that has been tested before and did not show fragmentation results when compared to Q3131. |
| Thanks for sharing. They look pretty much identical to me, which would make sense being both are M193 spec loads. |
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The thing to keep in mind is that the M193 spec doesn't say anything about jacket composition or thickness. You could easily have M193-compliant ammo with a non-fragmenting jacket. |
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True, but from the posted test, it would appear that the PRVI and Federal both fragmented about the same. This would lead one to assume (yes assuming is VERY dangerous) that the jacket material and thickness is similar. |
Or you could just section the bullet and compare it to known M193.  www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=361786&page=1  www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=271478 |
Now some men like the fishin’ and some men like the fowlin',
and some men like ta hear, the cannon ball a roarin'.
Me? I like sleepin', especially in my Molly's chamber.
But here I am in prison, here I am with ball and chain, yeah.
and some men like ta hear, the cannon ball a roarin'.
Me? I like sleepin', especially in my Molly's chamber.
But here I am in prison, here I am with ball and chain, yeah.
That still doesn't prove anything. 12_gauge tested 07 Prvi(that's what the sectioned bullet is) against Q3131 and it did NOT react the same way. The tests were different than --bullseye--'s but he did do the same tests with Q3131 as he did with the 07 Prvi. The Q3131 bullet showed much different results, aside from the turkey shoot. Links to 12_gauge's testing. |
I was out of town for the weekend. I might have time to get some testing done early this week though. |
"Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did, however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones." Dwight Schrute ('The Office')
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bump. added '07 PRVI test to original post. |
"Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did, however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones." Dwight Schrute ('The Office')
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Originally Posted By ––bullseye––: bump to keep this out of the archive for a little while longer...http:///images/smilies/anim_peep.gif I marked the post as "do not archive", so you don't have to bump it anymore. I'll also link to this thread in the PRVI ammo review. |
Daddy loves you. Now go away.
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Originally Posted By rpddsmith: sorry for my ignorance, but what are the blue pieces in the first two pictures? Also have you tried the.223 69gr hollowpoint match? Those are the lead fragments from the bullet...the lighting was a little off that day so I guess they do have a blue-ish hue to them... Haven't tried the 69 gr. HPs...I've been spending most of my ammo money on 7.62x39 and 9mm recently... |
"I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog." Dwight Schrute 'The Office' (NBC)
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Originally Posted By rpddsmith:
sorry for my ignorance, but what are the blue pieces in the first two pictures? Also have you tried the.223 69gr hollowpoint match? We already saw happened with PPU 75gr. If its consistent with what we see with the 77gr vs 69 SMK or the 75gr vs 68gr hornady then it would actually be WORSE than the PPU 75gr |
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I would really like to test the M855 PRVI stuff, but my "test facility" was sold. I am pretty sure I can do water-jug testing at the range I go to now as we have no range-master and it is pretty low-key and as long as you clean up your mess noone really cares. If I can, I will lug some phone books and water jugs out there.
I am waiting until my Sabre A4 arrives though before chronographing, ect. As far as my testing with the '07 PPU I had went, I never got it to fragment. The best I got was a small piece of lead maybe 5-10gr in weight being squeezed out the base of the projectile and flattening and SLIGHT sickling of the projectile when fired from a 20" HBAR 6601 into water at a distance of 5 feet. Shooting it through pin boards it would go sideways and snap at one side of the cannelure and fold in on itself. I have no idea why it did not fragment. My postulation was that it yawed at a later depth than other M193 rounds due to slight shape difference in the projectile and thus by the time it was yawed 90*, it was at a low enough velocity to preclude fragmentation. I am not saying that is the reason, it was just the best I could come up with. Who knows. As a side note, Winchester M855 that I have tested at 100y in phone books would penetrate 3-5 books, yaw, snap in half, and the nose would go one way and the base the other, usually penetrating to different depths. Reliably. Every time. I like the stuff! (It also would go through 3/8" mild steel plate and then a 2x4 afterwards. At 150 yards. |
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Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
I would really like to test the M855 PRVI stuff, but my "test facility" was sold. I am pretty sure I can do water-jug testing at the range I go to now as we have no range-master and it is pretty low-key and as long as you clean up your mess noone really cares. If I can, I will lug some phone books and water jugs out there. I am waiting until my Sabre A4 arrives though before chronographing, ect. As far as my testing with the '07 PPU I had went, I never got it to fragment. The best I got was a small piece of lead maybe 5-10gr in weight being squeezed out the base of the projectile and flattening and SLIGHT sickling of the projectile when fired from a 20" HBAR 6601 into water at a distance of 5 feet. Shooting it through pin boards it would go sideways and snap at one side of the cannelure and fold in on itself. I have no idea why it did not fragment. My postulation was that it yawed at a later depth than other M193 rounds due to slight shape difference in the projectile and thus by the time it was yawed 90*, it was at a low enough velocity to preclude fragmentation. I am not saying that is the reason, it was just the best I could come up with. Who knows. As a side note, Winchester M855 that I have tested at 100y in phone books would penetrate 3-5 books, yaw, snap in half, and the nose would go one way and the base the other, usually penetrating to different depths. Reliably. Every time. I like the stuff! (It also would go through 3/8" mild steel plate and then a 2x4 afterwards. At 150 yards. Have you ever tried the 08 PPU? From the looks of the pictures, it fragments much better than the 07. I wonder what's different about it? |
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Originally Posted By ColdAudio:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
I would really like to test the M855 PRVI stuff, but my "test facility" was sold. I am pretty sure I can do water-jug testing at the range I go to now as we have no range-master and it is pretty low-key and as long as you clean up your mess noone really cares. If I can, I will lug some phone books and water jugs out there. I am waiting until my Sabre A4 arrives though before chronographing, ect. As far as my testing with the '07 PPU I had went, I never got it to fragment. The best I got was a small piece of lead maybe 5-10gr in weight being squeezed out the base of the projectile and flattening and SLIGHT sickling of the projectile when fired from a 20" HBAR 6601 into water at a distance of 5 feet. Shooting it through pin boards it would go sideways and snap at one side of the cannelure and fold in on itself. I have no idea why it did not fragment. My postulation was that it yawed at a later depth than other M193 rounds due to slight shape difference in the projectile and thus by the time it was yawed 90*, it was at a low enough velocity to preclude fragmentation. I am not saying that is the reason, it was just the best I could come up with. Who knows. As a side note, Winchester M855 that I have tested at 100y in phone books would penetrate 3-5 books, yaw, snap in half, and the nose would go one way and the base the other, usually penetrating to different depths. Reliably. Every time. I like the stuff! (It also would go through 3/8" mild steel plate and then a 2x4 afterwards. At 150 yards. Have you ever tried the 08 PPU? From the looks of the pictures, it fragments much better than the 07. I wonder what's different about it? I have not |
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