Norrell "DEA" integrally suppressed 9mm upper from the '90s, what do we know about these?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Norrell "DEA" integrally suppressed 9mm upper from the '90s, what do we know about these?

Posted: 9/3/2021 10:08:05 AM EDT

The price was too good so I picked this guy up on a whim, currently sitting in my SOT's safe taking the long nap while my form 4 clears. I've got original R0633 and R0635 SMG uppers so I figured since it seems like the KAC/Colt version is unobtanium, I'd go for the next best thing to complete the holy SMG trinity. Anyone have any experience with one of these or an original? I did some basic disassembly on it and it looks like the suppressor is 2 part. The back 2/3 is an expansion chamber filled with brass eyelets(?) and the barrel is ported at 12/3/6/9 to allow the bullet to bleed enough speed to hopefully be subsonic. In front of that, the last 1/3 is a more traditional 3 or 4 baffle stack in its own assembly. Very interested to see how it runs. Either way, just a cool piece of old tech I thought I'd share.

Posted: 9/3/2021 10:41:40 AM EDT

[#1]

PRetty neat

I forgot those existed. I don't have anything productive to add though.

Posted: 9/3/2021 10:42:23 AM EDT

[#2]

WOW, that’s weird. Kind of ugly, kind of want it and definitely never heard of it.

Any way that you’ll be able to shoot it before pickup? My SOT has a range and allows us to shoot what we buy while waiting for the Form 4 to clear. Still can’t take it home, but it’s nice to be able to play with them. Looking forward to hearing more about it.

Posted: 9/3/2021 10:52:12 AM EDT

[#3]

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Quoted:
WOW, that’s weird. Kind of ugly, kind of want it and definitely never heard of it.

Any way that you’ll be able to shoot it before pickup? My SOT has a range and allows us to shoot what we buy while waiting for the Form 4 to clear. Still can’t take it home, but it’s nice to be able to play with them. Looking forward to hearing more about it.

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Definitely a little pug ugly, but that's where the charm comes from! From what I understand, there were only maybe 20-25(?) originals made by Reed Knight with Colt. I know there's a few guys who have them here, I've seen their posts in the past, but I'm already blushing just thinking about what they're worth.

Thankfully that will be an option. One of my shooting buddies is an RP for the SOT so we'll take it out here before too long. I'll post some pics/videos when I do.

Posted: 9/3/2021 11:11:06 AM EDT

[#4]

Man, I'd love to see the internals

The brass eyelets are to transfer the heat energy of the propulsion gases and reduce pressure.

Posted: 9/3/2021 11:36:17 AM EDT

[#5]

Very quiet moon rock. A neat product that colt failed to exploit.

Posted: 9/3/2021 11:36:31 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
Man, I'd love to see the internals

The brass eyelets are to transfer the heat energy of the propulsion gases and reduce pressure.

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Ask and ye shall receive. I'll head over there at some point and tear it down for shits and giggles. I'm curious myself. I took off the front baffle stack and kind of left it at that. I'm searching for a small pin upper to swap it out with as well so a teardown is in the works regardless.

Makes sense on the brass as well, though I didn't consider it from that perspective. I just figured it was something to slow down the gas velocity, but I hadn't considered temp. I talked to John on the phone about it for a few minutes and he said he decided on brass eyelets because it was easier to pack than steel mesh and he could buy them by the trillion

Posted: 9/3/2021 12:09:52 PM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:
Very quiet moon rock. A neat product that colt failed to exploit.

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It's a shame too because I think the Colt SMG's had a lot of advantages over their main competitor at the time, the MP5. Better sights, better trigger, better selector lever, BHO, magazine changes, bigger standard magazines (+2 rds), longer barrel, better adjustable stock, even lighter! And when you think about it, at the time they had a competitor to every MP5 offering too.

MP5 = R0635 SMG

MP5k = R0633 "DOE"

MP5SD = R0636 "DEA"

The real benefit that the MP5 had was just the recoil system, which is significant no doubt, but not that significant. At least in semi. I have an SP5 as well which I love, but I'm a sucker for the SMG. I would be very curious to have a head to head with this against an SD.

Posted: 9/3/2021 1:25:46 PM EDT

[#8]

All I remember is they were made for meth house raids to prevent explosions if they had to be fired while inside the house.

Posted: 9/3/2021 1:33:45 PM EDT

[#9]

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All I remember is they were made for meth house raids to prevent explosions if they had to be fired while inside the house.

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Yep, C.L.E.T. teams which I guess was really more of a Massachusetts thing? I don't know my DEA history. Either way, it's a funny concept because while your gun might not set off meth fumes, there's nothing to stop their guns from making the house go kaboom

When I got the upper though, I figured I had to get a patch to go with it. It's from the phillipines so definitely a knockoff but it was $5 shipped on eBay so it's not like it was expensive.

Posted: 9/3/2021 2:38:15 PM EDT

[#10]

I've always liked those, any chance of a photo without the handguards?
thx

Posted: 9/3/2021 3:12:37 PM EDT

[#11]

I run by the SOT about once a week to shoot the shit. I'll be there on tuesday next week so I'll tear into it then and post some pics.

Posted: 9/3/2021 5:18:54 PM EDT

[#12]

Posted: 9/3/2021 5:51:37 PM EDT

[#13]

Photo from autoweapons or is that yours? I'd love to get some more detailed photos under the hood of a legitimate one.

Or y'know...buy it.

Posted: 9/3/2021 9:49:26 PM EDT

[#14]

Not mine. If it was I'd be posting videos to make y'all jealous.

Posted: 9/3/2021 9:54:38 PM EDT

[#15]

That is awesome, I can’t get much more jealous as it is

Posted: 9/3/2021 10:35:33 PM EDT

[#16]

Will it generate more less jealousy if I can get my SOT to throw it on a post sample??
^{Asking for a friend obviously}

Posted: 9/3/2021 11:55:04 PM EDT

[#17]

I've only ever seen pictures of them. Also interested to see the guts.

Posted: 9/6/2021 3:15:24 PM EDT

[#18]

Cool score OP. Haven't seen one in a long time.

Brings back memories.

Posted: 9/6/2021 4:42:58 PM EDT

[#19]

One man's 'butterface' is another's 'dead sexy!'.

I pretty much love all the oddball stuff like this.

Makes you go: "Why?" Then: "Ooooh."

The pics I've seen of the KAC version always gave me the impression of the handguard portion being custom.

Less tapered?

Or were those just crappy pics?

ETA: Were there any documented kaboom incidents that actually justified the concern?

Don't get me wrong, I understand meth labs are very unstable environments.

But is the need based on facts or 'anecdotal evidence'.

Posted: 9/7/2021 2:15:44 PM EDT

[#20]

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ETA: Were there any documented kaboom incidents that actually justified the concern?

Don't get me wrong, I understand meth labs are very unstable environments.

But is the need based on facts or 'anecdotal evidence'.

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I'm with you. I've always found that rumor about it being made to "not set off flammable vapors" a bit hard to take at face value. An integrally suppressed 9mm SMG makes enough sense on it's own without that capability as a "feature". Without any supporting evidence, it just seems like lore. HK never promoted their MP5SD in the same way as far as I'm aware. Maybe I'm wrong?

That said, it would be interesting to test it and find out. Any volunteers?

Posted: 9/7/2021 2:23:37 PM EDT

[#21]

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I'm with you. I've always found that rumor about it being made to "not set off flammable vapors" a bit hard to take at face value. An integrally suppressed 9mm SMG makes enough sense on it's own without that capability as a "feature". Without any supporting evidence, it just seems like lore. HK never promoted their MP5SD in the same way as far as I'm aware. Maybe I'm wrong?

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That sounds more like what the purchasers in each agency "told their bosses to get the funding" kind of thing.

Also, just so everyone knows, an employee need not be an RP to possess FFL/SOT inventory off-premises. Any employee can do that (if authorized by their employer).

Posted: 9/7/2021 2:26:24 PM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:
That sounds more like what the purchasers in each agency "told their bosses to get the funding" kind of thing.

Also, just so everyone knows, an employee need not be an RP to possess FFL/SOT inventory off-premises. Any employee can do that (if authorized by their employer).

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Sounds par for the course.

Also, good to know, thanks for clarifying and correcting me. As a non-FFL, it's sometimes muddy.

Posted: 9/7/2021 7:32:13 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:

Yep, C.L.E.T. teams which I guess was really more of a Massachusetts thing? I don't know my DEA history. Either way, it's a funny concept because while your gun might not set off meth fumes, there's nothing to stop their guns from making the house go kaboom

When I got the upper though, I figured I had to get a patch to go with it. It's from the phillipines so definitely a knockoff but it was $5 shipped on eBay so it's not like it was expensive.

https://i.imgur.com/4t2PQ4r.jpg

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CLET was definitely not just a Massachusetts thing. Nice rifle btw.

Posted: 9/7/2021 11:00:25 PM EDT

[#24]

Alright, y'all asked for disassembly so disassembly is what you get.

You already know what the upper looks like so I'll jump right in. First the handguards are retained in the front by a regular triangular front handgaurd cap and clamped down with this muzzle nut. An adjustable pin wrench is all you need to get it off.

The front of the handgaurds are positively retained between the end of the suppressor and the handguard cap/muzzle nut. With the front removed, you can take the handguards off and this is what's under the hood. Everything forward of the silver break near the FSP is standard suppressor design. Everything aft is an expansion chamber surrounding the ported barrel.

Next is another cap at the end of the traditional suppressor stack. This is what the muzzle nut threads in to. Again, this is removed with a pin wrench.

There are also 4 screws which hold the back of the suppressor housing on to the end of the silver looking cap on the barrel/expansion chamber assembly. Four little baffle cups and a mini blast chamber(?) slide right out.

Nothing special here, just simple turned cups.

Next, the silver cap which connects the expansion chamber to the front suppressor half is retained by the modified FSP. Knock out the taper pin and that comes off.

With that removed, the rest simply slides off the front. With the cap off the expansion chamber area, you can see all the little brass eyelets/grommets used to pack it.

The main tube here is the serialized part and is simply a hollow tube, so I suppose it's unlikely you'd ever destroy the actual "suppressor" in this setup which is nice.

At last all that's left is the barrel. 42 ports drilled in total lining up at the 12/3/6/9 o'clock positions. It's very clearly a standard SMG/9mm cabine barrel that's been heavily modified and turned. You can see the original hole for the rear front sight pin is still there.

Not much else to it really, a pretty simple design. Very curious to run it here this weekend and see what kind of racket it makes. I'll update with video then.

Posted: 9/7/2021 11:23:47 PM EDT

[#25]

That’s so cool. Looks like a lot of work but would be fairly straight forward to replicate if someone wanted too build some

Posted: 9/7/2021 11:46:49 PM EDT

[#26]

Yeah there’s definitely not a lot to it. The most complex part is the expansion chamber cap and even that doesn’t seem too bad. Otherwise it’s a straightforward barrel reprofile/porting and a simple can. Probably plenty of room for modern improvements to make it run better/quieter too.

Posted: 9/8/2021 12:23:29 AM EDT

[#27]

Thanks for sharing.

It’s quite a bit different from the KAC units. The front sight is partially cut and still attached to the barrel while the KAC units’ front sight is just the A-frame welded directly on to the tube.

John Norrell is a legend in the community and I think his aluminum welding skills especially are still talked about. His M16 rewelds in particular are full of stories…

Posted: 9/8/2021 7:09:04 AM EDT

[#28]

what a neat upper

Posted: 9/8/2021 10:22:22 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thanks for sharing.

It’s quite a bit different from the KAC units. The front sight is partially cut and still attached to the barrel while the KAC units’ front sight is just the A-frame welded directly on to the tube.

John Norrell is a legend in the community and I think his aluminum welding skills especially are still talked about. His M16 rewelds in particular are full of stories…

View Quote

To be honest, I didn't really know who he was so when I was about to buy this thing I gave him a call. He seemed more than happy to give me 15-20 minutes of his time letting me know what I was getting in to. One of the nicest guys I've had the pleasure of speaking with in the industry, especially considering he was getting nothing out of the deal. It seemed like he was just happy someone else found it interesting.

Posted: 9/8/2021 10:39:39 AM EDT

[#30]

That's really cool, ringer

Posted: 9/8/2021 10:55:39 AM EDT

[#31]

I would be so in if someone would start making these.

Hint, hint, nudge, nudge Ringer. I know you know people.

Great score and write up by a great arfcommer!

Posted: 9/8/2021 11:39:48 AM EDT

[#32]

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Quoted:
Great score and write up by a great arfcommer!

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+1

Posted: 9/8/2021 11:41:43 AM EDT

[#33]

What is the weight of that upper fully assembled?

Does anyone know what KAC packed their expansion chamber with?

Posted: 9/8/2021 12:50:30 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
+1

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Great score and write up by a great arfcommer!

+1

Thanks everyone! Wasn't expecting this guy to receive this much attention

Quoted:
What is the weight of that upper fully assembled?

Does anyone know what KAC packed their expansion chamber with?

The one tool I forgot to bring with me was a scale. I'll weigh it with the BCG/CH installed next time I go back or if we're able to shoot it this weekend.

Posted: 9/8/2021 1:38:19 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
I would be so in if someone would start making these.

Hint, hint, nudge, nudge Ringer. I know you know people.

Great score and write up by a great arfcommer!

View Quote

I'm never opposed to seeing what interest I can drum up...

Posted: 9/8/2021 7:34:15 PM EDT

[#36]

I have one. Made by Gemtech but sold by AAC as the Mirage. It has I believe a 4” barrel instead of a ported one. I bought it new in 2004.

Attached File

Posted: 9/8/2021 11:28:10 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:

To be honest, I didn't really know who he was so when I was about to buy this thing I gave him a call. He seemed more than happy to give me 15-20 minutes of his time letting me know what I was getting in to. One of the nicest guys I've had the pleasure of speaking with in the industry, especially considering he was getting nothing out of the deal. It seemed like he was just happy someone else found it interesting.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thanks for sharing.

It’s quite a bit different from the KAC units. The front sight is partially cut and still attached to the barrel while the KAC units’ front sight is just the A-frame welded directly on to the tube.

John Norrell is a legend in the community and I think his aluminum welding skills especially are still talked about. His M16 rewelds in particular are full of stories…

To be honest, I didn't really know who he was so when I was about to buy this thing I gave him a call. He seemed more than happy to give me 15-20 minutes of his time letting me know what I was getting in to. One of the nicest guys I've had the pleasure of speaking with in the industry, especially considering he was getting nothing out of the deal. It seemed like he was just happy someone else found it interesting.

He’s obviously most famous for his Ruger 10/22 full-auto conversions, both suppressed and nonsuppressed. But he was one of the first to “reweld” demiled M16 receivers back together. Anyone who knows welding knows that welding aluminum is very difficult. He recreated and registered these M16 receivers to such an exacting degree down to the Colt and US Property markings that during a routine ATF compliance visit, they didn’t believe that what they were seeing were rewelds. They knew what rewelds were, but they could not see the welds in his receivers and it became a thing until, I believe, he provided xrays that clearly showed the dissimilar metals at the weld lines.

He’s one of the original pioneer SOTs from the 1980s. He’s an irreplaceable wealth of knowledge, it’s great you talked to him.