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Posted: 1/28/2026 10:18:22 AM EDT
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Been playing with this one for some time, it took a bit longer to get it all to come together, but finally was able to get some rounds down range. Before getting into the weeds with numbers and such - yes, there are several other cartridges that are similar, or similar-ish. Within the confines of the AR15 platform, there are only so many variations on the theme. We had a few specific ideas in mind when we designed this one the way we did. Design aspects that were taken into account: - larger projectile diameter than the .223 to get more mass on target - longer, slender projectiles to get good BC - shorter case to allow such longer bullets - optimized for shorter (10.3" or less) barrels - smaller case with faster powder - still able to use the standard M27 links - standard bolts, barrel extensions and magazines Where we ended up was .257 Ifrit, our little 'malevolent fire demon'. A 39 mm or 1.535" long case, optimized for 100 gr projectiles. 24.4 gr water capacity, using faster powders such as Win296 or VV 3N37. Here is what they look like, along with the projectiles - ranging from 67 gr Hammer on the left, to 133 gr Berger ELD on the right. Attached File Attached File Here are the numbers for 10.3" and 16" barrels, as well as some first range results - we weren't able to test all the loads yet. Attached File We have formed cases from .222 Remington and .223 Remington, but found that the .277 Wolverine cases are ideal, as it is only a neck down to form the Ifrit cases. Again, there are other cartridges that are quite similar, including the .25-45, .25-.223, .257 Ocelot, to name a few. Most of these, from what we can tell, cannot readily use the long, slender 100 gr and higher bullets, due to their longer case length. Shooting this little one has been very fun, the recoil impulse is very light, and accuracy has been very good. More testing to follow. Part of the design was to optimize this for use in shorter barrels - we REALLY dislike the .223 in 10.3" or shorter barrels, especially indoors. Looking at QuickLoad, for a .223 with a 62 grain bullet, when fired from a 10.3" barrel, the muzzle pressure is 16,000 psi and change. For the Ifrit, with the 100 gr bullet, that drops to ~10,000 psi. That makes a fair bit of difference in terms of 'discomfort' to the other folks around, so we feel that we met that requirement. And pushing the 75 gr HP at ~2600 fps from a 10.3" barrel is bit faster than the 77 SMK load in the .223 in that barrel length... Might have to try the Sierra 90 gr HPBT, we think it will do around 2300 fps. Happy to answer any questions. |
Be careful when the boss asks "Have you ever been to ...?"
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
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Side note - why .257? Why not 6 or 6.5mm? Two reasons: 1 - we had .257 on hand from another project, so this allowed us to use those bullets 2 - we feel the .257 is underdemiciated (name that movie reference). It sits right between 6mm / .243 and 6.5mm / .264 which are considered the main long range, high accuracy bullets. Yet the .257 does not get the same amount of love. Middle child syndrome? Who knows. But the quarterbore can do some great things and thus we wanted to give it some more love.... Oh, and that Maker 87 gr? It normally has a nice little flex tip, but that makes the COAL too long, so we pull those and end up with the HP in the picture... |
Be careful when the boss asks "Have you ever been to ...?"
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
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I'll admit to having used the .277 WLV several years back. Also a fan of the quarter bore, my email is even associated with the .257 Rbts. Curious on what are the advantages of the .257 lfrit over the semi established .277 WLV? A safety feature of the .277 WLV is that the bolt will not close if a .277 WLV round is chambered in either 5.56/.223 or .300BO chambers, is this safety feature also in the .257 lfrit design? |
Call the tune and let's dance; but beware that the devil is the piper and the tab for that soiree will be hell to pay.
Training&Trigger Time are more important than chasing a hardware Holy Grail
Training&Trigger Time are more important than chasing a hardware Holy Grail
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Originally Posted By wganz: Curious on what are the advantages of the .257 lfrit over the semi established .277 WLV? A safety feature of the .277 WLV is that the bolt will not close if a .277 WLV round is chambered in either 5.56/.223 or .300BO chambers, is this safety feature also in the .257 lfrit design? The .277 WLV is a great little round, we wanted the slightly more 'slippery' .257s - the BC is a hair better, especially with the longer 100+ grainers. We did look at this, the neck diameter of the .223 is .253" whereas the bullets for the Ifrit are .257", so it should not work, but would have to check if some of the really slender 257s might not just be able to 'slip in' a .223 chamber. Something to try this afternoon - update to follow. The longer Ifrit case will not fit a BO chamber plus having the 257 in the 30 is not as much an issue. Same as the WLV. As to fitting a BO in the Ifrit, the Ifrit is a smaller neck diameter version of the WLV. So just like the BO does not fit the WLV chamber, it won't fit the Ifrit chamber. |
Be careful when the boss asks "Have you ever been to ...?"
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
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Originally Posted By NotIssued: Is that an india-frit, or lima-frit? Damn font isn't putting the little crossbars if it's a capital "india." Where'd the name come from? LOL. India Foxtrot Romeo India Tango. Persian Jinn or malevolent demonic being, said to be born of smokeless fire. From Wikipedia, source of all knowledge  Ifrit, also spelled as efreet, afrit, and afreet (Arabic: عفريت, romanized: ʿifrīt [ʕifriːt] ⓘ), plural عفاريت ʿafārīt), is a powerful type of demon in Islamic culture. The ʿafārīt are often associated with the underworld and identified with the spirits of the dead, .... In Islamic folklore, the afarit became a class of chthonic spirits, inhabiting the layers of the seven earths,[19][20] generally ruthless and wicked, formed out of smoke and fire.[b][21] Despite their negative depictions and affiliation to the nether regions, afarit are not fundamentally evil on a moral plane; they might even carry out God's purpose. Such obligations can nevertheless be ruthless, such as obligation to blood vengeance and avenging murder Seemed like a fun and appropriate name for a smokeless cartridge that is intended to make things 'identify with the the spirits of the dead' ...  |
Be careful when the boss asks "Have you ever been to ...?"
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
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Originally Posted By MartytW: LOL. India Foxtrot Romeo India Tango. Persian Jinn or malevolent demonic being, said to be born of smokeless fire. From Wikipedia, source of all knowledge Ifrit, also spelled as efreet, afrit, and afreet (Arabic: عفريت, romanized: ʿifrīt [ʕifriːt] ⓘ), plural عفاريت ʿafārīt), is a powerful type of demon in Islamic culture. The ʿafārīt are often associated with the underworld and identified with the spirits of the dead, .... In Islamic folklore, the afarit became a class of chthonic spirits, inhabiting the layers of the seven earths,[19][20] generally ruthless and wicked, formed out of smoke and fire.[b][21] Despite their negative depictions and affiliation to the nether regions, afarit are not fundamentally evil on a moral plane; they might even carry out God's purpose. Such obligations can nevertheless be ruthless, such as obligation to blood vengeance and avenging murder Seemed like a fun and appropriate name for a smokeless cartridge that is intended to make things 'identify with the the spirits of the dead' ... Thanks 
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: Looks similar to 6.8 SPC proportions. .223 parent case, so smaller diameter than the 6.8 SPC case, shortened to 1.535" or 39mm (shorter than the 6.8 SPC at 43mm), necked to .257. Closer to a 6.5 Grendel perhaps? |
Be careful when the boss asks "Have you ever been to ...?"
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
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Kind of a big brother to the 6x35 kak . Good bore area to case volume for short bbl use . Better sectional density and bc than .277 or .264 for weight thereby allowing more usable energy. The 85gr nosler looks like a good middle ground . 87gr sp Speer would probly be good economically. * eta - forgot to ask twist rate on the 10.3" ! |
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When the .458SOCOM was developed, yeah this guy... The way I recall it... He and Tony punished their reasons for every step of the development. .50AE case for a definite shoulder for headspacing. .458 for a selection of hunting bullets, rather than pistol bullets. Trying different twist rates in actual barrels, before available ballistic calculations on a smart phone. Marty, welcome back, glad to see quality posts! db |
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Originally Posted By DBrown: Definitely will exceed 6x35. Does look like the precision rounds that the 6.5g was developed from. Would not be surprised if it is a VERY consistent little round. db No doubt its outclassed the 6x35 , I was referring more to the packaging criteria with efficiency in the short bbls. The 110ftx looks like performance left on the table . Why not load it out a little further ? One thought I had was on the nickel alloy stainless cases . The makers claim a 14% increase in case capacity over similar sized brass cases . If the 300 blk cases could be necked down to 250 fireball 22gr capacity becomes 25gr with the NAS3 cases. Might be able to leave some tips on the longer stuff . Neat cartridge as is though . * I also have 25-45 (14.5" 1:9) and 277wlv (9.25" 1:11) |
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I had fun playing around with the .25-223 with a shortened case that we did a group buy on about 15 years ago. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/25-223/121-499109/? Case is shortened by 2 mm so the longer bullets can fit. I never got to shoot a deer with it, but it worked great on feral hogs. One of these days I'll dig it out and start shooting it again. |
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Originally Posted By VaFish: I had fun playing around with the .25-223 with a shortened case that we did a group buy on about 15 years ago. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/25-223/121-499109/? Case is shortened by 2 mm so the longer bullets can fit. I never got to shoot a deer with it, but it worked great on feral hogs. One of these days I'll dig it out and start shooting it again. Kurt (7.62x40) made his cartridges off the 222 rem with a shortened neck ...a 17 rem has the shoulder bumped between that and the std 223 . Almost a perfect spot for a .257 variant. * the 556/223 cases are fun to mess with and the .257 bullets need more exposure. |
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Hey, glad to see we have a nice discussion going. Let's see if we can answer a few of the questions... - Have to admit, wasn't aware of the 6x35 KAK, but we did look at the 6x35 TSWG, does that count? Played a bit with the KAC rifle in that caliber and upset Reed Jr when we loaded the mag with another one of our wildcats.  We have a 6mm in our line-up (240 Spectre) so we wanted to give the 257 more love (and use the bullets we had).- During the design we started where we left off 15 years ago when we made the 256 Win Mag Rimless - never did come up with a clever name for that one. Just as the name implies, trim .223 brass, into standard .256 Win Mag dies and Robert is your dad's brother.. Only drawback is that the original reamer has a pretty short throat (IIRC) so that limited what it would do. It was fun playing with it and we have a bunch of loaded ammo still laying around, no clue where the barrel went... - From there (256 WMR), we looked at various case lengths, finally settling on 39mm, having run all sorts of QL simulations. At this length, it makes sure the M27 links fit properly, the shorter ones, the top of the link would be over or too close to the shoulder in our opinion. And those 100 grainers fit nicely in the 39mm case. More on bullet choices below. - Yeah, we really like the .257 as a caliber in general. It needs more love. As 9D1Alpha pointed out, good SD and BC. Where is Quarterbore? He started us down this path.... - Accuracy and consistency - we need to spend more time at the range, and use one type of brass to see how consistent it is, mixed brass wasn't working that well, to be honest. The WLV brass from Starline seems to be absolutely perfect for forming the 257. Starting with 223 and 222 brass, we harmonica'd a number of cases, maybe less bourbon and more patience when forming cases? That said, while merely shooting at paper for velocities, it was making a single ragged hole without trying. So it looks like it will be accurate. Need someone who can actually shoot to figure that out, I'm still trying to hit that barn... * side note - these new chronographs are cool. No shooting across it, or having to walk down range to set things up (always a bit unnerving). Less chance of bullet strike, too (not zero, but that is because we're clumsy). - Bullet choices. We have a bit of a soft spot for Barnes, as they did make that nice .458 TTSX for us. So we may have been a bit focused on those. But there are so many choices these days. A few that we still want to try: - Hornady 95 gr ELD-VT - Hornady 128 gr ELD - Speer 87 gr TNT - Sierra 70 gr Blitzking - Cutting Edge 70 gr ESP Raptor - That 110 Flextip - we found those later, after we had already worked with the other 100 grainers. Note that this 110 has a different profile, more 'nose heavy' - the way the reamer was cut, it is designed around those sleek 100's, at around 2.25 COAL to fit all the various mags. The 110 hits the rifling if we seat it out further. We thought about a longer throat, but then the 100s have a pretty long jump, and we didn't want to risk hurting accuracy for the sake of that 110. (OK, we just don't think that 110 is all that sexy....  )- Oh, before we forget - twist rate. It's fast. For a reason. 1 in 7. Yup. We wanted to be sure the 133 Berger was stable, plus there might be some other things in the works that would need that twist  . Doesn't seem to hurt the lighter bullets, the smaller case volume and shorter barrel keeps the velocity low enough that it doesn't spin the lighter ones apart...And to stay with the theme of our signature "People keep asking if I'm back. And I haven't really had an answer. But, yeah, I'm thinking I'm back" |
Be careful when the boss asks "Have you ever been to ...?"
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
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Ah , thanks for the details , Marty . Yeah , I goofed on the 6x35 name haha. Makes sense to keep the accuracy with the wider range of higher bc bullets over that "ugly" 110ftx haha. Good to see .257 interest. Bullet choice does seem to be expanding a bit in the past few years. |
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Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: Ah , thanks for the details , Marty . Yeah , I goofed on the 6x35 name haha. Makes sense to keep the accuracy with the wider range of higher bc bullets over that "ugly" 110ftx haha. Good to see .257 interest. Bullet choice does seem to be expanding a bit in the past few years. Always happy to answer questions. My mistake on the 6x35, I thought you were referring to KAK Industry, didn't think of KAC as we know that cartridge as the TSWG. The 110 FTX is really a bit odd to me - seems like a hold over from old designs. Perhaps for rounds like the 257 Rob or 250-3000? But good to see Hornady is adding some more 'sleek' designs like the ELDs. |
Be careful when the boss asks "Have you ever been to ...?"
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
"You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this (ARFCOM) pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths".
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Originally Posted By MartytW: Always happy to answer questions. My mistake on the 6x35, I thought you were referring to KAK Industry, didn't think of KAC as we know that cartridge as the TSWG. The 110 FTX is really a bit odd to me - seems like a hold over from old designs. Perhaps for rounds like the 257 Rob or 250-3000? But good to see Hornady is adding some more 'sleek' designs like the ELDs. Originally Posted By MartytW: Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: Ah , thanks for the details , Marty . Yeah , I goofed on the 6x35 name haha. Makes sense to keep the accuracy with the wider range of higher bc bullets over that "ugly" 110ftx haha. Good to see .257 interest. Bullet choice does seem to be expanding a bit in the past few years. Always happy to answer questions. My mistake on the 6x35, I thought you were referring to KAK Industry, didn't think of KAC as we know that cartridge as the TSWG. The 110 FTX is really a bit odd to me - seems like a hold over from old designs. Perhaps for rounds like the 257 Rob or 250-3000? But good to see Hornady is adding some more 'sleek' designs like the ELDs. They used it (ftx) for their lever-evolution line like the 25-35 win . Their attempt to give lever actions some bc without getting too pointy due to tubular magazines. They even did a run of 7-30 Waters , as well as .30, .357 , and .44. Excellent SD for killing stuff. The ELDs are pretty and bring that sweet BC , much more inline with maximizing performance box fed ARs. * I think the 110ftx just stayed in my memory bank as one to try in my 25-45 due to its somewhat squat dimensions
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