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MIL-SPEC, MIL-STD, TDP and More, Explained: Colt, KFC, and the Fried Chicken Theory of the AR15 (Page 3 of 3)
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Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Augee's OP consists of some opinions as well...so your point? The bias that some of you have reeks in here. Post anything but high praise in here, and get your response removed. Post an opinion that differs from the OP's opinion, and get flack for it. What makes this thread different than any other around here? Someone please elaborate. Are healthy constructive conversations no longer welcome around here, or does that new rule just pertain to threads where Augee is the OP? Please enlighten me on the new rules around here. Dude, what "constructive criticism" are you offering? All you ever parrot is "such and such is better," yet you fail to qualify any of your assertions. Unless, of course, you're offering similar gems like your statement in the Mk18/CQBR thread about the FSB being an exposed gas block prone to problems. Gee, since when did a dual taper-pinned FSBs serve as a failure point on these weapons? That must be one of those pieces of "fresh air" that the unknowns are IM'ing you about. The issue(s) people are taking with you are not with your points since you haven't really made any. You are still stuck on which brand is "mo better" and you're missing the point of the OP. In fact, [Augee] carefully tried to avoid such issues, yet you are bringing this thread (like all others) into a dick-measuring pissing contest, which the OP never intended it to be. The irony out of all this is how (semi) tight your skinny jeans got when, in the Mk18/CQBR thread, Joe Marler of DD chimed in that they were offering complete uppers to the military/govt. When it was pointed out that their gas ports are typically oversized (with video evidence of their own rep indicating it), he suggested that they sell different barrels to the .mil, yet offered no additional evidence. The point here is that there is a spec that must be met for military use. You chide this spec as being dated, yet you got giddy, nay, downright defensive (even moreso than normal) when you were given information that your favorite parts are alleged to meet that spec. So, which is it? Spec good? Spec bad? You really can't have it both ways unless you're just trying to be a pain in the ass. In closing, I didn't mean to add further derailing to this thread (dammit, Augee, you tried hard to keep it from getting to this) or make specific points regarding one poster's behavior in other threads. But it's worth saying that that behavior is evident in this and the aforementioned threads, and that single individual is pretty much solely responsible for taking it to this point. Others have tried to tell you to just move along, but you can't do it. You're not telling us anything other than your unsubstantiated opinion (which reeks of anti-Colt bias...again, ironically) or anything that we can't read from certain manufacturer's marketing materials.* I guess some people just like to shit on everything.  
*While I'm picking on DD here, what is "Mil-Spec+"? If the TDP is a trade secret, how can they make such a quantitative claim? If I had to go on a simple part (in comparison to the only mil-spec that currently exists), such as the A2 grip, I would say it meets "Mil-Spec-". Which makes me wonder, what other discrepancies in parts are there? Since manufacturers don't have access to the TDP, there's really no accountability in making any quantitative or qualitative comparisons to the "mil-spec." |
| Thank you for an entertaining read. While I've had an AR for years, I was not that familiar with the history of the AR. This post and your take on that history was an easy learning session. As a side note; I've seen and experienced the elitist attitude of some of the members on ExtraTastyCrispy.net. I have found Arfcom friendly and it's members more than willing to help with a question or problem. |
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Where did I claim any brand is better than another in this thread?
I simply made comments in regards to the TDP. Nothing more. Because my opinions on the TDP differ from Augee's, that for some reason seems to be an issue. Augee's stance on the TDP is no less an opinion then mine. It can't be any more proven that the TDP has never been leaked than that it has been. I also have a fair argument that beyond leaked TDP documents, that with modern technology and solid engineers, the TDP can also more than be replicated identically. The TDP is relevant to the OP at least. Your rant, however, is not, and has easily derailed this thread more than any other comment in here to thus far. You've taken your butthurt from my stance on DD parts in comparison to Colt parts from the MK18/CQBR thread, and now thrown that argument into this thread. Show me the relevance, please. |
"They are not men, they are weapons."
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
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Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Where did I claim any brand is better than another in this thread? I simply made comments in regards to the TDP. Nothing more. Because my opinions on the TDP differ from Augee's, that for some reason seems to be an issue. Augee's stance on the TDP is no less an opinion then mine. It can't be any more proven that the TDP has never been leaked than that it has been. I also have a fair argument that beyond leaked TDP documents, that with modern technology and solid engineers, the TDP can also more than be replicated identically. The TDP is relevant to the OP at least. Your rant, however, is not, and has easily derailed this thread more than any other comment in here to thus far. You've taken your butthurt from my stance on DD parts in comparison to Colt parts from the MK18/CQBR thread, and now thrown that argument into this thread. Show me the relevance, please. Please troll elsewhere dude. Or at least put a thin veil on. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
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For Christ's sake. People can't have a fucking opinion when Augee is the OP or something?
How the fuck am I trolling? I've offered my own opinions that are relevant to the OP. This is the most absurd thread I've ever seen around here by a mile. Any other thread, people chime in with tons of different opinions. Nobody bats an eye to that. |
"They are not men, they are weapons."
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
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Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
For Christ's sake. People can't have a fucking opinion when Augee is the OP or something? How the fuck am I trolling? I've offered my own opinions that are relevant to the OP. This is the most absurd thread I've ever seen around here by a mile. Any other thread, people chime in with tons of different opinions. Nobody bats an eye to that. I think a significant issue is the gross irony in the fact that you accused Augee of bias, when your own bias is clearly evident. I don't find your posts to be inflammatory in the least, and you make some relevant points. I think it's best to simply take Augee's post for what it is. A clever, well reasoned, fact supported analogy. And if you are going to challenge it, just be sure to have your ducks in a row. |
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Originally Posted By wolverine05:
I think a significant issue is the gross irony in the fact that you accused Augee of bias, when your own bias is clearly evident. I don't find your posts to be inflammatory in the least, and you make some relevant points. I think it's best to simply take Augee's post for what it is. A clever, well reasoned, fact supported analogy. And if you are going to challenge it, just be sure to have your ducks in a row. Originally Posted By wolverine05:
Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
For Christ's sake. People can't have a fucking opinion when Augee is the OP or something? How the fuck am I trolling? I've offered my own opinions that are relevant to the OP. This is the most absurd thread I've ever seen around here by a mile. Any other thread, people chime in with tons of different opinions. Nobody bats an eye to that. I think a significant issue is the gross irony in the fact that you accused Augee of bias, when your own bias is clearly evident. I don't find your posts to be inflammatory in the least, and you make some relevant points. I think it's best to simply take Augee's post for what it is. A clever, well reasoned, fact supported analogy. And if you are going to challenge it, just be sure to have your ducks in a row. That's a very fair point. Thing is, I've already stated in this thread that I don't take issue with some of the underlying bias I detected in Augee's OP. I know he didn't intend for it, he's since edited it, and I admitted that I myself am guilty of the exact same thing often. So in fairness, I've already long acknowledged all of that, and as said, took no issue in it. The issue and bias I have been speaking of lately is with these folks trying to bash me for offering a differing opinion to Augee's opinion...all while I've remained completely relevant to the OP with my differing opinions. That's surely nothing that needs to be faulted around here, and in nearly every other thread, it isn't. This thread for whatever reason seems to have special rules though... |
"They are not men, they are weapons."
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
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Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
This thread for whatever reason seems to have special rules though... You seem to bring out the best in people and somehow make them misunderstand what you are saying. It is a very unique skill. 
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"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here." - Jayne Cobb
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Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote:
You seem to bring out the best in people and somehow make them misunderstand what you are saying. It is a very unique skill. Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote:
Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
This thread for whatever reason seems to have special rules though... You seem to bring out the best in people and somehow make them misunderstand what you are saying. It is a very unique skill. I guess, brother. 
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"They are not men, they are weapons."
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
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As far as the moderated comments, this thread is the first time I've had comments removed.
My first was that the fried chicken thing was a bit much and probably not necessary. This is a tech forum last time I looked. My second was suggesting people find "The Black Rifle" books for a more in depth and technical look at the development of these rifles. Otherwise it is a job well done as usual and makes a good layman's guide. |
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First, thanks to the OP for a very informative post. I found it too lengthy and unorganized when I first started to read it. Now that he has broken it down in chapters it is very readable and organized, and I think an excellent reference for those who care to know about such things.
Second, we are all biased and anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves. Unfortunately, the Internet is a difficult place to have meaningful discussion. Take the information for what it is. You don't have to believe any or all of it, but at least the OP tried to put information out in context that is arguably on point, even if there are slight differences of opinion. If anyone thinks the OP is really saying "just by a Colt", they failed reading comprehension in their education. Third, according to the link below, the M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors by NSWC Crane in 1996 and only Wendy's refused to return their copy after KFC complained. The result was an addendum to the TDP that insured only KFC could sell chicken over an agreed about time period. I can't confirm this is accurate, but the source seems reputable. How The TDP Got Out I think the anology by the OP is actually brilliant if you can take it in context and keep the emotion out of it. The business practices of all the companies are not relavent to the topic of the quality of the end product. It's all about the chicken on your plate. I would not recommend KFC if asked, because their chicken menu is limited and they don't make it "my way". That may change according to some things I read in another forum. They might actually start making some of their raw ingredients available soon to home chef's like me. That is encouraging. Thanks for the well written post and your efforts to make the process understandable. |
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Originally Posted By DWood:
First, thanks to the OP for a very informative post. I found it too lengthy and unorganized when I first started to read it. Now that he has broken it down in chapters it is very readable and organized, and I think an excellent reference for those who care to know about such things. Second, we are all biased and anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves. Unfortunately, the Internet is a difficult place to have meaningful discussion. Take the information for what it is. You don't have to believe any or all of it, but at least the OP tried to put information out in context that is arguably on point, even if there are slight differences of opinion. If anyone thinks the OP is really saying "just by a Colt", they failed reading comprehension in their education. Third, according to the link below, the M4 TDP was distributed to 20+ manufacturers by NSWC Crane in 1996 and only Wendy's refused to return their copy after KFC complained. The result was an addendum to the TDP that insured only KFC could sell chicken over an agreed about time period. I can't confirm this is accurate, but the source seems reputable. How The TDP Got Out I think the anology by the OP is actually brilliant if you can take it in context and keep the emotion out of it. The business practices of all the companies are not relavent to the topic of the quality of the end product. It's all about the chicken on your plate. I would not recommend KFC if asked, because their chicken menu is limited and they don't make it "my way". That may change according to some things I read in another forum. They might actually start making some of their raw ingredients available soon to home chef's like me. That is encouraging. Thanks for the well written post and your efforts to make the process understandable. Originally Posted By DWood:
First, thanks to the OP for a very informative post. I found it too lengthy and unorganized when I first started to read it. Now that he has broken it down in chapters it is very readable and organized, and I think an excellent reference for those who care to know about such things. Second, we are all biased and anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves. Unfortunately, the Internet is a difficult place to have meaningful discussion. Take the information for what it is. You don't have to believe any or all of it, but at least the OP tried to put information out in context that is arguably on point, even if there are slight differences of opinion. If anyone thinks the OP is really saying "just by a Colt", they failed reading comprehension in their education. Third, according to the link below, the M4 TDP was distributed to 20+ manufacturers by NSWC Crane in 1996 and only Wendy's refused to return their copy after KFC complained. The result was an addendum to the TDP that insured only KFC could sell chicken over an agreed about time period. I can't confirm this is accurate, but the source seems reputable. How The TDP Got Out I think the anology by the OP is actually brilliant if you can take it in context and keep the emotion out of it. The business practices of all the companies are not relavent to the topic of the quality of the end product. It's all about the chicken on your plate. I would not recommend KFC if asked, because their chicken menu is limited and they don't make it "my way". That may change according to some things I read in another forum. They might actually start making some of their raw ingredients available soon to home chef's like me. That is encouraging. Thanks for the well written post and your efforts to make the process understandable. Sorry, I'm insulted by your reading comprehension comment. That's uncalled for and patently untrue. Consider this original version on which I based my comments: Listen, dude, you may eventually settle into exactly the piece of fried chicken that you like best - but for now, for your first piece - just go to KFC, order Original Recipe, and enjoy. Later on, when you have a basis for comparison, you can start hitting up other chicken joints and figure out which one tugs at your heart strings, but right now - KFC is the best advice if you want to get good chicken that you're going to enjoy. Sure, there might be better chicken joints - but there are also worse ones - and there's a lot more of them around than the other kind! Since KFC is Colt by the OP's own definition, this, simply translated, is "First AR? Just go buy a Colt until you figure things out". So don't tell me I fail at reading comprehension. It's pretty damn clear to see what the point of that paragraph is. I'll be waiting for your apology..... |
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A good takeaway is that if you are new in town, you might not know all the "hole in the wall" amazing chicken places. You are likely, however, to have encountered KFC, Church's or Popeyes at some point in your life, and are also likely to find one somewhere nearby. While you figure out where the really good chicken supposedly is, you know you can at least head to KFC etc and get chicken that's probably about the same as anywhere else you've had it. Yeah, maybe every once in a blue moon you'll find a chicken head in the KFC, but that's what happens with a big-name chicken place with a nationwide presence. And while you're trying to figure out who the "best" local place is, every local you talk to will probably tell you something different. Jim's chicken is really greasy, but their breading is the best! Mama's Kichen only uses organic, free range chicken and fries it in peanut oil! Yadda, Yadda, you have to taste the chicken for yourself at some point to figure out what your favorite is. Two places might taste and cost about the same, but maybe Mama's comes with 2 scratchmade sides and a biscut for the same price.
TRANSLATION Colt is often used as the baseline because they are common, decently priced for what you get, and have pretty solid quality control. Maybe you are a Popeyes or Church's kind of guy, so you always buy and recommend BCM, or DD. Sure, it isn't "original recipe AR-15" from the guys that made big name fried chicken a household thing, but that doesn't make it worse, and you prefer that flavor. Heck, maybe you recommend one place because you feel their rifles are about on par, but you get more extras like mags, a sling, cleaning kit, and coupon towards an Aimpoint. The whole idea of Mil-Spec is that it is "A" standard, and not necessarily THE standard for everyone. But when you evaluate what actually goes into those standards, and a manufacturers compliance with said standards, you can make the decision for yourself whether you can go at, above, or live with being below that standard for your uses. As always on the internet, YMMV. Some folks need to take that to heart a bit more. |
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Sorry, I'm insulted by your reading comprehension comment. Oh, wait, I don't get to have my opinion, but you get yours? If that is the only thing you can take from the story, I stand by my my statement. You can't look at the OP's buy KFC in the context of the whole post, which involves reading comprehension. Don't wait up for the apology. No meaningful comment on something that could add to the discussion, like the link I posted? Good info, bad info? And don't accuse me of blindly defending Colt. the only Colt's I own are a Detective Special and a Cobra. |
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Originally Posted By DWood:
Oh, wait, I don't get to have my opinion, but you get yours? If that is the only thing you can take from the story, I stand by my my statement. You can't look at the OP's buy KFC in the context of the whole post, which involves reading comprehension. Don't wait up for the apology. No meaningful comment on something that could add to the discussion, like the link I posted? Good info, bad info? And don't accuse me of blindly defending Colt. the only Colt's I own are a Detective Special and a Cobra. Originally Posted By DWood:
Sorry, I'm insulted by your reading comprehension comment. Oh, wait, I don't get to have my opinion, but you get yours? If that is the only thing you can take from the story, I stand by my my statement. You can't look at the OP's buy KFC in the context of the whole post, which involves reading comprehension. Don't wait up for the apology. No meaningful comment on something that could add to the discussion, like the link I posted? Good info, bad info? And don't accuse me of blindly defending Colt. the only Colt's I own are a Detective Special and a Cobra. You are entitled to your opinion. When you start insulting others on their "opinion" then you're gonna get called on it. I don't care what you think is the best answer when a noob asks what to buy or whether to build, but I do care that you say my opinion is wrong and insult me for posting it It's ironic that you want your opinion posted and defend that right, yet insult others whose opinion differs from yours. I provided a quote with a clear and direct translation supporting my opinion...you've made no attempt to show me where I'm wrong or to support your opinion. Instead you insult me further. Please link where I've accused you of blindly defending Colt. Trust me, I won't wait up. Clearly you don't have the ability to support what you said and don't have to class to apologize for a clearly unfounded insult. I can live with that...I'm not the one who looks like an ass here. |
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Originally Posted By DWood:
First, thanks to the OP for a very informative post. I found it too lengthy and unorganized when I first started to read it. Now that he has broken it down in chapters it is very readable and organized, and I think an excellent reference for those who care to know about such things. Second, we are all biased and anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves. Unfortunately, the Internet is a difficult place to have meaningful discussion. Take the information for what it is. You don't have to believe any or all of it, but at least the OP tried to put information out in context that is arguably on point, even if there are slight differences of opinion. If anyone thinks the OP is really saying "just by a Colt", they failed reading comprehension in their education. Third, according to the link below, the M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors by NSWC Crane in 1996 and only Wendy's refused to return their copy after KFC complained. The result was an addendum to the TDP that insured only KFC could sell chicken over an agreed about time period. I can't confirm this is accurate, but the source seems reputable. How The TDP Got Out I think the anology by the OP is actually brilliant if you can take it in context and keep the emotion out of it. The business practices of all the companies are not relavent to the topic of the quality of the end product. It's all about the chicken on your plate. I would not recommend KFC if asked, because their chicken menu is limited and they don't make it "my way". That may change according to some things I read in another forum. They might actually start making some of their raw ingredients available soon to home chef's like me. That is encouraging. Thanks for the well written post and your efforts to make the process understandable. Wish I had more time to reply in a little bit more depth to this - but the situation with the TDP being released to FNMI and other vendors, I've already covered in a response to AR-Ryan21 on Page 2. Suffice to say - it's hard to determine what all the whole situation is there, and if that means that the TDP ended up being released to the "rest" of the commercial market - what I will say, though, is you'd likely never be able to prove it, because no one would be willing to admit to it, as it would go against the whole "not been improperly used" for FNMI to have not only used it themselves, but released it to other commercial companies to use. At the same time, the MagPul Gen. I PMag situation, along with BCM's recent release of a "new" M4 upper earlier this year because of what they claimed was a "40% rejection rate" from OEM supplies of flattop M4 uppers would point attest to the continued legacy of "reverse engineering" and its pitfalls - if the TDP for as ubiquitous a part as the M4 upper was open source, the implication would either have to be that some OEM suppliers are still not using it, or have such shitty QA/QC that they can't seem to properly stick to it. And since most vendors won't tell you who their OEMs are and/or what their rejection rates on outsourced parts are - I'll leave it up to others to determine which scenario they'd prefer to believe in. As for the source - I'll probably end up adding on the first page a selected bibliography and recommended readings - but I'll put it this way - D. E. Watters is to whom I go to when I have questions about the history and development of the AR15/M16/M4 family of weapons and/or specific dates or information. His 5.56 Timeline is a collection of pretty much every contract, patent, and event in the history of the M16 FOW from the fifties until about 2009. His 5.56 Timeline, along with The Black Rifles I and II (TBR) are where a lot of my information in the original post has come from, which I have simply both analogized to make it more accessible to a wider audience, and greatly simplified and summarized, and all three are highly recommended by me for those with more interest in the history and development of the M16 FOW. The one big addition that I've added to those sources, I believe, is applicability to the civilian/commercial market, as TBRII only goes up to about 2003, while the 5.56 Timeline tapers off around 2009, and all three deal almost exclusively and entirely with military weapons and military use. ~Augee |
The first KFC opened in Salt Lake City, so the Kentucky Fried Chicken is a sham! 
Thanks for the read Augee, just finished it. |
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here." - Jayne Cobb
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Selected bibliography and recommended readings added to first page.
~Augee |
WTT Custom 1911 for IR lasers, suppressors&More:
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| Yay! It's unlocked. Thank you DWood for posting about the tdp debacle. That link was very helpful in explaining what happened with the whole M4 contract hoopla that went on. |
Listening to GD talk about violence is a lot like listening to fifth graders talk about sex.--tommytrauma
Augee, excellent read and very informative. I also think you hit the nail on the head with the secret recipe analogy. My only question is where does Zaxbys and Chick-fil-a fit into the equation  .
One very basic way I have described it to friends is name brand products versus premium/gourmet brand versus store/off brand products. You can buy Lays potato chips, the store brand that says on the bag it has the same ingredients and taste as Lays, or the gourmet brand potato chips that claim to be healthier, better tasting, more crunch etc. at double the cost. Is the gourmet brand better than Lays? Opinions may vary, with some saying hell yes and others hell no. Same with the store brand. Some can't taste or tell a difference, while others can tell just by looking at it. One thing they all do is compare themselves to Lays claiming to be either as good as (store brand) or better than (gourmet) them. Another comparison could be done with sedans. A Toyota Camry is considered a standard. Some cars are cheaper and claim to be as good, others are more expensive, claim to be better and rightly so. Others will fall into the same price point, miles per gallon, horsepower, and other specs as the Camry and will serve just as well, but they are not a Camry. The one common is these companies will all compare their cars to a Camry, whether their product is better or worse. Whether I agree or disagree I always enjoy your posts and usually find them informative. |
Thank you sir ! One of the best analogies for this ever, if not the only one ! Enjoyed it fully, and appreciate all the time and effort to pin this together. This weapon has, for a ton of reasons, a rather convoluted history....but a great one none the less. And one we need to hear, what with all the BS about this system over the years. Great Job ! 
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Originally Posted By Augee:
the Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 PMags: this statement from MagPul not long after the first PMags were released to wide distribution speaks a bit to what I'm talking about: (emphasis added) ~Augee Originally Posted By Augee:
the Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 PMags: this statement from MagPul not long after the first PMags were released to wide distribution speaks a bit to what I'm talking about: Well, yes and no. From almost the very beginning we've been individually gauging every single PMAG that leaves the warehouse to fit in the Colt M16 magwell. However, we have tightened up our gauges over time to help the PMAG drop from an ever wider variety of smaller-than-spec magwells. Basically, the older PMAGs are in-spec and will still drop from a Colt M16 but the newer ones are a slight bit smaller.
What is causing all these issues in the first place is two fold: 1. The Colt TDP (Technical Data Package) has never been made available and consequently all AR lowers have been reversed engineered with a wide variety of tolerances. 2. Marketing factors. The in-vogue thing today for manufacturers is to make their magwells smaller and smaller so that USGI alloy mags don't rattle around so much. If mags rattle less in your lower versus the competition then it gives the impression that you build a higher quality product. Hence the incentive to make a tight well. The question has also been asked in the past of why a PMAG may not drop when most of the time a USGI alloy mag will? The reasoning is that aluminum sheet metal can be made pretty thin which gives a decent amount of room to work with. However, due to the increased wall thickness necessary for a robust polymer magazine along with our smoother-feeding constant-curve internal geometry we need all the magwell space we can get as afforded by the Colt design. Justin Beard Magpul Industries Tech Support / Customer Service ~Augee Augee, thanks for the excellent topic and information. I have a question specifically about this part: How to USGI magazines come into play in this whole TDP, Mil-spec, Mil-STD business? The magazines are clearly part of the rifle system in one way or another, and must have been from the start, right? Related to that; how do PMAGs and the like then fall into that? |
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Just one thing...
The USG always had rights to the AR15 design. And, the USG maintained their own set of drawings that governed USG procurement, this was, and still is, the 'M16/M4 technical data package'. The USG bought stuff was always made to USG drawings, not necessarily Colt's drawings, mainly for configuration control purposes. Look at the drawing below, you will note that the drawing is a Rock Island Arsenal drawing, not a Colt Drawing. This is why Hydra-Matic and Harrington Richards could get contracts and make M16A1s with such little difficulty, (and later FN). The other thing to note on the RIA drawing is the disclaimer in the upper left-hand corner, which states, while these drawing are maintained by RIA, the design belongs to Colt, and shall not be given out unless given to those under contract with the USG. The design was not a 'secret", merely legally protected. The problem with your analogy is unlike the 'secret blend of herb and spices' used by KFC or the 'secret formula" of Coca-Cola, there were quite a few places that had all the information required to make parts to spec, but were only legally restrained from doing so. As to the technical data being 'officially released' is somewhat a moot point. It has been released, and you can find quite a bit of it out there if you look, so parts being made "to print is not really a question, whether or not the QA is at the same level as for USG procurement is the proper question. 
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Originally Posted By Augee:
While we're on the subject of PSA: PSA is little fried chicken shop that just opened up in town. Now, they, like everyone else are making some variation of a copy-cat KFC Original Recipe, but they, like everyone else, have never actually seen KFC's Original Recipe. What makes PSA weird is that they claim to follow all the rules of fried chicken preparation that are required by the military, and they also claim that they use all high quality ingredients, better ones than most of the other fried chicken joints in town, and right there on the same level as the ingredients that KFC themselves use. What's weird, though - is that they're able to sell their fried chicken for 50% less than any other decent and comparable chicken joint in town. A couple people have tasted it, and they all say "as far as we can tell, it's great fried chicken!" They've made overnight converts that say their fried chicken is way just as good or better than other places' fried chicken, up to and including KFC - except it's way cheaper. Not only that, they run crazy as shit promotions like "five cent chicken wings as long as they last!" that people absolutely love. What no one can figure out for sure is if how they're able to sell chicken so cheap and it still be as good - how can they continue making a profit? If you ask them, you might get a variety of answers - about how they care more about their customers than other restaurants, about how they buy so much fried chicken at once that they're able to afford to sell it so low, that they don't have as many employees as other servers so they don't have as much overhead, etc. Not only that, but you notice that it turns out - Wendy's big catering kitchen is practically in their backyard - they can pretty much just walk over and pick up more fried chicken whenever they need it - no need for delivery vans, drivers, etc. - so you wonder if maybe that's how their chicken is so cheap. Problem is, no one can tell you for sure - they could also be using reject cancer chicken that the USDA "swears they got the whole tumor out," or they could be buying Grade D flour that's more sawdust than grain for their batter - but hey, it looks the same, and the people that eat there don't seem to really notice the taste difference. On top of that, a couple of people that went there early on got a couple of pieces of chicken that had obvious hairs in them or were only half-fried. Just so happens a couple of those customers were also the types that post reviews on Yelp! They go and post a review on Yelp! and everyone else ends up reading it - some of them start blasting the restaurant on the basis of the review and say "HA! I knew it! I knew there was something shady going on! This place sucks!" Thing is though, no one really knows how often this kinda thing happens - there are a couple of negative reviews on Yelp!, a couple of positive reviews, and a whole bunch of customers who've never even heard of Yelp! much less read or post fried chicken reviews there. Of course, you've also got to filter the fact that you have no idea who the reviewers are on Yelp! You might notice a couple of reviewers who tend to review restaurants you've been to and whose reviews you generally seem to agree with, but beyond those few reviewers, you have no way of knowing whether the guy writing the review is someone who has been eating fried chicken for decades and used to work in a fried chicken restaurant - or if it's a guy whose never eaten fried chicken in his life before, much less KFC - and would therefore probably, and accurately in their case - swear that the fried chicken they ate was the best fried chicken they'd ever had. The point, however, is that no one really has any idea why PSA's fried chicken is so much cheaper - and suspicions run the gamut from the way too "butterflies and rainbows" opinions of some folks, to the "cancer chicken" doom and gloom opinions of others - truth is probably somewhere in between. What we do know is that some of their catering is done through Wendy's, that they've sold a couple of pretty fucked up pieces of chicken a couple times that got written up on Yelp! - and unrelated, perhaps to the overall quality of their fried chicken - when you order it - their servers are usually slow as fuck, and it takes forever to get your fried chicken at your table. Whatever they are, what they are not is a fast-food fried chicken purveyor. But hey, for 50% cheaper - and five cent wing nights when you can catch 'em, some people are happy to deal with the slow service. Yelp! is AR15.com and sites like it on the internet. Meanwhile, there might be a couple of reviewers on Yelp! who consider themselves "serious fried chicken connoisseurs" who insist on "KFC or gourmet fried chicken only, if you're not going to eat fried chicken from one of those places, you may as well not even bother eating fried chicken at all." Well, they get sick of all the people on Yelp! saying things like "Wow! BI-LO fried chicken is the best chicken ever!" because they've only ever eaten... like... BI-LO and Hungry Man TV dinner fried chicken, and get pissed at them for "not being serious fried chicken eaters" because fried chicken isn't their be all, end all of existence, and they don't spend every spare moment and dime they have buying and eating fried chicken. So, they say "fuck you, Yelp!" and go off and start their own website, called "Extra Tasty Crispy.net," after a later (and some would argue better) variation of Original Recipe that most of the military is eating now, and aggressively run off, ridicule, and insult anyone whom they consider not to be a "serious fried chicken eater" who dares to open their mouth on ExtraTastyCrispy.net. ~Augee I was reading a post on the PSA forum where a PSA rep stated that they could sell quality items so cheaply because the sales of AR15's and components are not a large part of their business. He said that they have been selling ammo, gear and other firearms long before they branched out into the AR15 field... and half the reason they do it was to lure more cutomers who would also buy ammo andone of the many other products they sell. E.G= Guy opens up a bar... bar is selling beer and whisky ok but he wants to sell more so he puts in a few pool tables...that works out pretty well since most pool players also like beer and whisky.... to add a little zing to this approach the bar owner set up a montly pool turnament with prizes and a party afterward..... the extra sales drummed up by the pool tables and tournaments increase sales in other areas and increase his profits and name recognition. Great though... and well done Aug... but i dont think anything is secret about the ingredients of O-KFC |
Our revolution will have been in vain if a Virginia farmer is held in hock to a New York stock jobber, who is in hock to a London banker. The opportunities for corruption would prove irresistible.
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Originally Posted By Augee:
...but they, like everyone else, have never actually seen KFC's Original Recipe.... First, I it's not much of a secret recipe any more. Very little effort need be expended in an internet search to turn up most of the drawings for the parts other than the pins and springs, which are easily reverse engineered as the pins are pretty much standard pins and the springs are about the easiest thing in the world to reverse engineer. All of the applicable military specifications and standards are freely available to the public from the USG. Now, none of these places making all this AR interchangeable stuff, BCM, RRA, PSA, DD, etc, etc, are not going to admit publicly where they got the information on how to make bolts and receiver extensions that are so closely toleranced across brands that they generally do not need to be headspace to be safe, or any or this AR stuff. After any drawing has been redrawn on new letter-head it is rather hard to prove you did not actually measure a parts to make the drawing, especially if you have a good draftsman that knows which tolerances are not that critical and can be changed slightly so they do not does not exactly match. If these things were truly "reverse engineered" from a collection of Colt parts by a collection of different places, you would have the .308 AR situation, a whole bunch really close, but often not quite compatible, copies. |
MIL-SPEC, MIL-STD, TDP and More, Explained: Colt, KFC, and the Fried Chicken Theory of the AR15 (Page 3 of 3)
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