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Posted: 8/29/2025 2:28:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cjcutter][Edited]
| Just bought a complete rifle brand new contract overrun. With various GI mags, Colt, Okay, Brownells, D&H, 20 and 30rnders failure to lockback on last round with pmags and Bulgarian steel works as it should. I've ran 190 rounds of 556 including Igman, PMC Xtac and primarily AE all 55gr. Contacted LWRC said perhaps a gassing issue was having weak ejection at my feet they had me send it in called me said they tested with various mags and ammo 223, 556 and "proof" rounds deemed it fine and experienced zero issues so it wasn't deemed warranty and I had to pay $50 shipping they waived the $75 range fee. I got rifle back and ran 20 rounds of AE loading one round at a time in 8 different mags the problem still exists only pmags and steel seem to be ok otherwise GI even brand new fail to lock the bolt back on last round using the factory buffer spring and H2 I switched to a carbine spring and buffer it still isn't helping. Any thoughts? I bought a springco yellow and blue spring and a BMC carbine spring and LMT H and H1 buffer yet to try them. 16" with midlength gas. Any input appreciated. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Originally Posted By Dano523: Need to see photo's of your sent cases, both the sides of cases and the spent primers as well. next, do not use the mag as either a hold point, or as a bipod off the bench, since will cause mag to tilt in well and cause problems. Brass isn't dented. Last one, when loading mags, make sure to rasp back of mag off your palm or some other surface, to make sure that all the rounds in the mag are seated all the way back with rims tight against back of mag. During firing, the rounds will be kept to rear of mag. As for charging, either pull CH all the way back and let it go, or lock B/C on catch, the hit catch so B/C is running full speed to strip/load/ock the bolt home. Hence do not ride the charging handle forward, and if you do, then will need to use the forward assist to lock the bolt all the way home. As for failure for mag release to raise the bolt catch to lock the bolt back on last round fired, Shotgun upper open, insert empty mag in well with it follower pushed forward in mag body, then push back of mag forward in well while holding bolt catch down, then release mag catch to make sure that back of mag follower is able to push the mag catch back up. Don't have this happening, http://80percents.com/images/thumbs/m1_machining_lower_bolt_catch.jpg Next, if follower is lifting mag catch up, make sure it lifting is all the way to the stop. If it seems that the catch is not coming all the way up, then may have to pull the catch to check the detent spring channel, since may have debris in it, that is causing the spring to have more tension that needed to keep it down. Also point out, brand new mags, and mags that have seen say 20 reloads, they need to be pulled all the way down, to be CLP cleaned inside and out of all the mag parts. From here, pull all the way back of the charging handle, and make sure that face of the bolt stops 1/8"~1/4" in front of the back edge of the ejection port, and the last inch of pull of the CH is the same tension as the middle of charging handle pull. If rear of pull seem harder, then could be problem with recoil spring, or could be problem with hammer binding in the FCG when carrier comes all the way back. from there, spent cases should be ejected a clean 5-10' out of the ejection port on a reaward path (before striking the upper defector) and if spent cases are dribbling out, then time to check for leaks or blockages that may be causing the problem in the first place. Note, metal expands when it gets hot, so rig may be boarder line colds, but a few round through the rig to heat the metal up, and could be why the gas leak problem is only happening then. As for LWRC, get them on the phone again, since does sound like rig does need to go back to them again, ,and they should be refunding any funds that you had to pay for the first time around. Hence without chucking lawn darts in the neibors yard blindly/nothing is binding up, problem could be as simple at gas leak between the key to top of carrier. I appreciate the very indepth response. I got it back last evening and placed a single round in each mag and the GI mags even on first round didn't lock back the pmag did as well as Bulgarian steel mag. No monopoding of the gun shooting done freehand. I typically always make a point tap/seat ammo in the mags. It's not consistent certain mags will work as intended some wong lock back, some brand new some slightly used some well used. I thought to try the upper/lower on different uppers/lowers and even a different bcg. Brass isn't dented. Tested 8 different mags, Colt, D&H, Okay, Brownells, pmag and Bulgarian steel. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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| Put another 20rnds of AE 556 one round at a time in 5 different mags 2 pmags and 3 steel. Gassing was 1-3 o'clock. The non windowed pmag worked perfectly the windowed had one round not lockback, the steel a few rounds did lockback a few didn't, I even tried with resting mag on porch and pmag worked fine. |
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Describe what solutions/methods you are using to clean the rig/mags, and what solvents you are using to lube the bearing areas of the rig once they have been cleaned correctly, and the rig is being put back together. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Originally Posted By Dano523: Describe what solutions/methods you are using to clean the rig/mags, and what solvents you are using to lube the bearing areas of the rig once they have been cleaned correctly, and the rig is being put back together. I haven't cleaned it since purchasing and no cleaning of mags some are brand new, I religiously clean my firearms this one I was vetting then will teardown and clean. I switched upper/lower with a colt upper/lower and bcg and charging handle to confirm function I believe the rig is greatly over gassed and am gonna try a H3 and a springco red or orange. When switched bcg or upper/lower combo worked fine and with pmags had lockback 100% in original configuration ran another 50rnds of 556 through it yesterday. Still not 100% lockback with various GI mags and it's 1-2 o'clock ejection approximately 5 feet good primers strikes no dented cased. |
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Originally Posted By cjcutter: Balistol, bore snake, Tuff cloth Sentry. Switch over CLP (either breakfreeCLP or RADCOLUBE CLP if you want to buy it in the gallon or larger containers) ditch the bore snake, and go back to solid one piece cleaning rod with brass brushes, patch jig, and chamber brush), https://www.amazon.com/Lubricates-Preserves-Military-Grade-Revolutionary-Must-Have/dp/B073RNR8XR And will bank that problems go away once you have removed the old Balistol (that has parfin wax in it that is causing problems) from the rig. To point out, do not use Hoppers solvents to clean the rig either, since it leaves being a protective layer that will cause the rig to foul choke out very quickly too (plus does not mix well with CLP, and the mess that those two mixed leave behind, even faster fouling choke out of the rig) If you want to make clearing the rig faster (bore fouling), then add Sweats copper solvent as your first cleaning agent, to first clean the copper out of the bore, get all that out until patches are not longer coming out blue, but dry, switch over to chamber brush with CLP to get chamber clean, push that mess out to the muzzle until patches come out dry, then CLP for the fouling of the other parts of the rig, get all the fouled CLP out, then light coat of fresh CLP on the upper bearing parts, including light coat of the buffer and recoil spring, and outside and in of the B/C before it installed into the upper. Hence truth be told, does sound like the rigs problems, could be solved at the range with a can of BreakfreeCLP to give it bearing areas a fresh coat of the correct lube in the first place. Hence with breaking the rig in, when you get to the range, pull the B/C to give it a fresh light coat of CLP inside and out, before you start shooting for the day. the Fresh CLP on it, will transfer to the rest of the bearing surfaces, to combat the fouling to slow its build up down. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Originally Posted By Dano523: Switch over CLP (either breakfreeCLP or RADCOLUBE CLP if you want to buy it in the gallon or larger containers) ditch the bore snake, and go back to solid one piece cleaning rod with brass brushes, patch jig, and chamber brush), https://www.amazon.com/Lubricates-Preserves-Military-Grade-Revolutionary-Must-Have/dp/B073RNR8XR And will bank that problems go away once you have removed the old Balistol (that has parfin wax in it that is causing problems) from the rig. To point out, do not use Hoppers solvents to clean the rig either, since it leaves being a protective layer that will cause the rig to foul choke out very quickly too (plus does not mix well with CLP, and the mess that those two mixed leave behind, even faster fouling choke out of the rig) If you want to make clearing the rig faster (bore fouling), then add Sweats copper solvent as your first cleaning agent, to first clean the copper out of the bore, get all that out until patches are not longer coming out blue, but dry, switch over to chamber brush with CLP to get chamber clean, push that mess out to the muzzle until patches come out dry, then CLP for the fouling of the other parts of the rig, get all the fouled CLP out, then light coat of fresh CLP on the upper bearing parts, including light coat of the buffer and recoil spring, and outside and in of the B/C before it installed into the upper. Hence truth be told, does sound like the rigs problems, could be solved at the range with a can of BreakfreeCLP to give it bearing areas a fresh coat of the correct lube in the first place. Hence with breaking the rig in, when you get to the range, pull the B/C to give it a fresh light coat of CLP inside and out, before you start shooting for the day. the Fresh CLP on it, will transfer to the rest of the bearing surfaces, to combat the fouling to slow its build up down. I do have some breakfree I believe I'll give it a try and give a good cleaning of the original lube/grease it shipped with, I appreciate your insight. |
| No worries, since carry a small can of BreakfreeCLP in my gear, and can not count the amount of times that someone has had problems with a rig on range, just pulled their B/C to douched it hard with CLP inside and out, installed it back into the upper and empty cycled the lubed B/C a few times in the rig to migrate the CLP to the other bearing areas of the rig, handed the rig back to them, and rig ran without problems afterwards. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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| Blue springco/H3 had 20 mags all GI one pmag, Brownells, Okay, Colt, Ar stoner 20rnders, D&H, couple unknown all used some very well used, 20 rnds of AE 556 one round each mag. Ejection 2-3 o’clock mainly 230-3 about 10 feet, 16 locked back 4 did not, Ar stoner 20rnd, Colt, unknown and okay all have follower hump on right fwiw, many of the Brownells have the left side “bullet” follower. Freshly cleaned/lubed prior to testing not seeing any unusual wear, I have a springco red and an orange coming to test, I’d say it’s very overgassed. |
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If rig is over gasses, then spent cases should have the rims bent back from the extractor pull to start with. So lets take this back to the beginning, with photo of spent case, cleaned chamber and photo's of it to make sure camber is not reamer ringed to hell, and even checking the head space and leade (to make sure bullets are not embedding on loading) with head space gauges. Simply put, if its taking all that to get slow the unlock back to normal with standard 223 ammo with the barrel gas port over sized, you stand no chance in hell of trying to get the rig to run with Mk262 ammo instead. And I bring that up, since barrel is 1/7 twist, so not going to shoot the tightest with 55 gr, maybe with 62gr that will work in 1/8 twist barrels, and will really want 69gr or heaver bullet to print is best. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Originally Posted By Dano523: If rig is over gasses, then spent cases should have the rims bent back from the extractor pull to start with. So lets take this back to the beginning, with photo of spent case, cleaned chamber and photo's of it to make sure camber is not reamer ringed to hell, and even checking the head space and leade (to make sure bullets are not embedding on loading) with head space gauges. Simply put, if its taking all that to get slow the unlock back to normal with standard 223 ammo with the barrel gas port over sized, you stand no chance in hell of trying to get the rig to run with Mk262 ammo instead. And I bring that up, since barrel is 1/7 twist, so not going to shoot the tightest with 55 gr, maybe with 62gr that will work in 1/8 twist barrels, and will really want 69gr or heaver bullet to print is best. All my testing has been done with 556 ammo primarily AE 55gr some Igman and pmc X-tac as well. 223 was shot by LWRC supposedly when sent in for evaluation. Cases aren't deformed I know what you're describing from other rigs I have. |
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Again, if rig is over gassed, meaning bolt unlocking to soon with the residual pressure on the bore too high/the spent case still over pressure locked to chamber walls, to cause bolt/extractor to have one hell of a time trying to get the spent case out that is slowing way down the rear stroke of the B/C, then extractor should be bending the hell out of the case rim on the pull. Or, chamber conditions are less than stellar, if bolt is unlocking at correct timing, but side walls of chamber are not cleanly releasing the spent case as the residual pressure in the bore has dropped on pull for what should be a clean release of the spent case from chamber walls. https://www.lwrci.com/IC-DI-Standard-556_p_246.html#mz-expanded-view-1448543813416 Bottom line, if barrel gas port is correct, then should be no reason anything more than standard carbine buffer and standard carbine spring in the rig for the rig to run correctly. The reason that the M-4 runs the H buffers (H3 when older higher blow back supressor are in play), and the Colt extra tension extractor spring, is Mk-262 ammo uses slowing burning power, which pushes the peak spike of the powder burn closer to the barrel gas port, this speeds up the bolt unlock timing, and the heaver buffer slows the unlock back down to normal, the extra tension extractor spring, makes sure that spent case is not dropped from the bolt face on the pull. So again, if your having to throw that much buffer weight and even stronger buffer spring at the rig to get it to run correct with comercial 55gr 55K psi ammo, and have the last round hold open work correctly its got problems. It does sound like the stroke may be correct, and the problem more of bolt hold open spring/its channel to shallow in the lower receiver, and the weight of the heaver buffer is causing more rig jarring at back of stroke (more felt recoil), which is allowing the bolt catch more time to be raise by the mag followers in the end. So here is a set of lower drawing that you an download if you want to see if catch spring channel is drilled deep enough/wide enough in the lower. Note, bolt catch detent should drop freely in to the channel as well. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1067/2310/files/AR15_Lower_receiver_blueprint.pdf?3587052860788957110 Pull the bolt catch, and using a 5/16 drill bit by hand, clean up the bolt catch spring channel in the lower, and double check the depth of channel to make sure it deep enough as well. Also, make sure that bolt catch is not binding in the slot for it in the lower as well. ______ And again, although you can shoot 55gr ammo through a 1/7, it not going to print its best. So may want to look into some 62gr ammo, or start to reload 69gr ammo instead. And with the spent cases rims not being bent, the bolt stops correctly on CH pull and not increase in tension from buffer spring binding, don't see the problem as bolt unlocking too soon, but problem with either bolt catch binding, its spring too strong/its channel not drilled deep enough, and why some of the mag spring and followers, are not able to get the catch up fast enough to stop the bolt on last round fired (if mag springs are still in spec), and the heaver buffers just causing more felt recoil, more jarring of the rifle at back of stroke, while is helping the mag springs get the catch up in time to catch the bolt on the way back forward. Ot, if the problem really is the barrel gas port too large, the rig is over functioning with bolt unlock too advance with standard carbine spring and buffer with the 55gr ammo from too much gas from gas port, then rig needs to go back, to have the barrel replaced (with a barrel that does have correct size gas port instead). As stated, barrel is 1/7 twist, designed to stabilize 69gr ammo, and that ammo uses slower burning power, and it going to cause even more pressure through the barrel gas port, to make the bolt unlock even faster. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Originally Posted By Dano523: Again, if rig is over gassed, meaning bolt unlocking to soon with the residual pressure on the bore too high/the spent case still over pressure locked to chamber walls, to cause bolt/extractor to have one hell of a time trying to get the spent case out that is slowing way down the rear stroke of the B/C, then extractor should be bending the hell out of the case rim on the pull. Or, chamber conditions are less than stellar, if bolt is unlocking at correct timing, but side walls of chamber are not cleanly releasing the spent case as the residual pressure in the bore has dropped on pull for what should be a clean release of the spent case from chamber walls. https://www.lwrci.com/IC-DI-Standard-556_p_246.html#mz-expanded-view-1448543813416 Bottom line, if barrel gas port is correct, then should be no reason anything more than standard carbine buffer and standard carbine spring in the rig for the rig to run correctly. The reason that the M-4 runs the H buffers (H3 when older higher blow back supressor are in play), and the Colt extra tension extractor spring, is Mk-262 ammo uses slowing burning power, which pushes the peak spike of the powder burn closer to the barrel gas port, this speeds up the bolt unlock timing, and the heaver buffer slows the unlock back down to normal, the extra tension extractor spring, makes sure that spent case is not dropped from the bolt face on the pull. So again, if your having to throw that much buffer weight and even stronger buffer spring at the rig to get it to run correct with comercial 55gr 55K psi ammo, and have the last round hold open work correctly its got problems. It does sound like the stroke may be correct, and the problem more of bolt hold open spring/its channel to shallow in the lower receiver, and the weight of the heaver buffer is causing more rig jarring at back of stroke (more felt recoil), which is allowing the bolt catch more time to be raise by the mag followers in the end. So here is a set of lower drawing that you an download if you want to see if catch spring channel is drilled deep enough/wide enough in the lower. Note, bolt catch detent should drop freely in to the channel as well. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1067/2310/files/AR15_Lower_receiver_blueprint.pdf?3587052860788957110 Pull the bolt catch, and using a 5/16 drill bit by hand, clean up the bolt catch spring channel in the lower, and double check the depth of channel to make sure it deep enough as well. Also, make sure that bolt catch is not binding in the slot for it in the lower as well. ______ And again, although you can shoot 55gr ammo through a 1/7, it not going to print its best. So may want to look into some 62gr ammo, or start to reload 69gr ammo instead. And with the spent cases rims not being bent, the bolt stops correctly on CH pull and not increase in tension from buffer spring binding, don't see the problem as bolt unlocking too soon, but problem with either bolt catch binding, its spring too strong/its channel not drilled deep enough, and why some of the mag spring and followers, are not able to get the catch up fast enough to stop the bolt on last round fired (if mag springs are still in spec), and the heaver buffers just causing more felt recoil, more jarring of the rifle at back of stroke, while is helping the mag springs get the catch up in time to catch the bolt on the way back forward. Ot, if the problem really is the barrel gas port too large, the rig is over functioning with bolt unlock too advance with standard carbine spring and buffer with the 55gr ammo from too much gas from gas port, then rig needs to go back, to have the barrel replaced (with a barrel that does have correct size gas port instead). As stated, barrel is 1/7 twist, designed to stabilize 69gr ammo, and that ammo uses slower burning power, and it going to cause even more pressure through the barrel gas port, to make the bolt unlock even faster. Thank you, you are extremely knowledgeable. They LWRC deemed the rig gassed "good" and had no malfunctions I have zero confidence in there CS doing anything but charging me more $ saying there is not a warranty claim, $50 shipping and $75 range/labor fee. |
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If you have another ar15, or know of someone with one, then double check your bolt catch pressure to raise it, against the other rig. As stated, does not seem like the rig is over functioning since not getting bent rims, but isntead the extra mass of the buffer and spring, is making the rifle have more felt recoil to Jar is more as the buffer slams off the back wall of the receiver extension void, which may be helping to get the bolt catch up, before the bolt starts moving forward over it again. |
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...
<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Originally Posted By Dano523: If you have another ar15, or know of someone with one, then double check your bolt catch pressure to raise it, against the other rig. As stated, does not seem like the rig is over functioning since not getting bent rims, but isntead the extra mass of the buffer and spring, is making the rifle have more felt recoil to Jar is more as the buffer slams off the back wall of the receiver extension void, which may be helping to get the bolt catch up, before the bolt starts moving forward over it again. I do, I can test. I did swap lower/upper with a colt lower/upper with original carbine/H2 spring and buffer all functioned fine, even swapped bcg/ch amongst the two. |
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