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Haenel CR223 and B&T BT-15 (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 1/17/2021 7:47:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EnablerNo1][Edited]
| I haven’t seen these discussed on arfcom yet. These look very interesting. Did anyone here pick up a Haenel? BT-15 is supposed to land soon’ish. |
 The Haenel CR223 is Coming to the US as the B&T-15! #GunFest2021 Holy Bejemamus! $3400 MSRP? I guess they really are patent infringing upon H&K, even in their obnoxious over-pricing. They get a military contract and then use that as an excuse to rake your butthole over the coals. No spank you. Even LWRCI is cheaper. By a full grand. |
| Looks quite nice. A few interesting improvements over the 416. At that price though I bet they sell very, very few. Not hating, I own B&T goodness but there is a whole tier of premium AR's that are $1k less expensive and arguably a better value (Knight's, Barrett, LMT, LWRC, Radian, etc, etc). |
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Originally Posted By Craigjones56: I picked one up and it’s a very nice rifle, only one problem...for the life of me I can’t figure out what the muzzle thread is. Can anyone chime in? OK so is it a pistol or a rifle? As I have been scolded for a number of times, did you contact the importer about the threads? I would not be surprised if it is the same spec as the G36 (present german service rifle) but this would be a guess. |
| Pistol, my mistake! I’m bad for using generalized terms lol. I have contacted literally everyone I can think of and no one seems to know. I was told 1/2x28 by the importer but that is incorrect. I assumed m15x1 after that but it’s way too wobbly when I thread it on. |
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Originally Posted By Craigjones56: I picked one up and it’s a very nice rifle, only one problem...for the life of me I can’t figure out what the muzzle thread is. Can anyone chime in? @Craigjones56 Mind sharing some photos? I'm curious about the bolt carrier group if you're willing to share. According to all the media I've read it should be 1/2x28, is it a right or left handed thread? |
Mil-Spec: The best you can get for the lowest amount of money possible.
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Originally Posted By JoEnge1136: @Craigjones56 Mind sharing some photos? I'm curious about the bolt carrier group if you're willing to share. According to all the media I've read it should be 1/2x28, is it a right or left handed thread? I’ll take some quality photos of the bcg and everything else when I get home today! I can confirm the build quality is extremely nice and it’s very German with its markings lolAttached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By AKR: OK cool! Nice tango down grip, but I must say that the key-mod handguard is a turn off for me. Do you have an HK product to compare it to? I am curious about the way it stacks up. I do, I’ll take detailed pictures comparing it to my 416 today (time got away from me yesterday). To me the haenel appears to be slightly more refined and polished with the exception of tool marks on the bcg. Shooting suppressed will be the real test. My 416 tends to choke up suppressed depending on the kind of mags/ammo I use. |
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As promised, here are some comparison pictures. You’ll notice that aside from a few subtle changes they are extremely similar systems. Obviously the haenel is missing a full auto profile carrier and the respective drain hole on the bottom of the carrier. Both systems have the OTB barrel tab which is interesting considering they opted not to put the drain hole on the bcg. The haenel has a vented gas block unlike the HK however, sadly it isn’t adjustable. I appreciate the steel cam path insert on the haenel not that it’s really a huge issue but nice to have. All in all both excellent guns with the haenel being more practical IMO for general use vs the older HK. Kicking myself for not buying one of the A3 MR’s last year! Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Many photos or YouTube videos of the civilian Haenel's in Europe (223 and 308) have a bolt lock/release on the right side, similar to the HK MR223A3. Looks like these do not, although they have ambi mag release and selectors (Earlier Haenels didn't have that either). The big question is whether the "BT" marked guns will or not. Every photo of the B&T with their USA guys, they don't show a good view of that side of the gun, or its hidden by an open ejection port cover. Photo from an ad on Sturm, you can clearly see the button:  If you think the Haenel is expensive, check the recent GB prices of those HK MR223a3's that sold within the last month.  |
| Thank you for the photos and detail. It looks like that barrel nut is proprietary (i.e. it will not swap with the HK style handguards) - I am a huge german gun guy and I appreciate the "A5" style features but do you know if say, a geissele rail will fit on that barrel nut since you had it apart? Just curious so see if I have found my next obsession. Thank you for humoring me. |
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Originally Posted By Kisara: Many photos or YouTube videos of the civilian Haenel's in Europe (223 and 308) have a bolt lock/release on the right side, similar to the HK MR223A3. Looks like these do not, although they have ambi mag release and selectors (Earlier Haenels didn't have that either). The big question is whether the "BT" marked guns will or not. Every photo of the B&T with their USA guys, they don't show a good view of that side of the gun, or its hidden by an open ejection port cover. Photo from an ad on Sturm, you can clearly see the button: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2019_08/IMG_4544.jpg.d97ea9337f58aa1e5c0fd71b4c1ddd9f.jpg If you think the Haenel is expensive, check the recent GB prices of those HK MR223a3's that sold within the last month.  The Haenel CR223 is Coming to the US as the B&T-15! #GunFest2021 |
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Originally Posted By AKR: Thank you for the photos and detail. It looks like that barrel nut is proprietary (i.e. it will not swap with the HK style handguards) - I am a huge german gun guy and I appreciate the "A5" style features but do you know if say, a geissele rail will fit on that barrel nut since you had it apart? Just curious so see if I have found my next obsession. Thank you for humoring me. The rails are unfortunately not interchangeable, I like the factory one however but I get the sentiment! |
| Too bad - that could be a deal breaker for me. Thank you and enjoy it. I doubt a whole heck of those will make it over so you may have a unicorn there. I wonder why they would go with what looks like key-mod this late in the game when M-Lok appears to be taking over. |
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Originally Posted By AKR: Too bad - that could be a deal breaker for me. Thank you and enjoy it. I doubt a whole heck of those will make it over so you may have a unicorn there. I wonder why they would go with what looks like key-mod this late in the game when M-Lok appears to be taking over. That’s Germans for you! Lol the upcoming b&t one has mlok which is nice and I’m sure might lead to some aftermarket support! |
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Originally Posted By Kisara: Many photos or YouTube videos of the civilian Haenel's in Europe (223 and 308) have a bolt lock/release on the right side, similar to the HK MR223A3. Looks like these do not, although they have ambi mag release and selectors (Earlier Haenels didn't have that either). The big question is whether the "BT" marked guns will or not. Every photo of the B&T with their USA guys, they don't show a good view of that side of the gun, or its hidden by an open ejection port cover. Photo from an ad on Sturm, you can clearly see the button: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2019_08/IMG_4544.jpg.d97ea9337f58aa1e5c0fd71b4c1ddd9f.jpg If you think the Haenel is expensive, check the recent GB prices of those HK MR223a3's that sold within the last month. Thats my question as well. I understand that the MK556 has also the ambi bolt release, and some civilian CR223's too but not all. The civilian Cr308 has also the ambi bolt release, but the majority of the CR223's available do not. So it looks like that ambi bolt release on CR223 is some newer version than the one that doe snot have it. So I wonder whether a Phase 5 V3 ambi bolt lever does fit on the lower, as the lower has some raised sections on the lower that might interfere with a Phase 5 V3 lever. And it may also interfere with the mag release. Can anyone who has these items confirm wither this is the case or not? A picture with the Phase 5 installed on a CR223 would be awesome. Also I'd like to understand how the Haenel AMbi bolt release works. Anyone can make a picture of it? This is what H&K's solution loooks like: 
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Originally Posted By Craigjones56: I do, I’ll take detailed pictures comparing it to my 416 today (time got away from me yesterday). To me the haenel appears to be slightly more refined and polished with the exception of tool marks on the bcg. Shooting suppressed will be the real test. My 416 tends to choke up suppressed depending on the kind of mags/ammo I use. I agree, but would like to remind that the HK BCG has a black finishing on it. I don't think that Haenel is using lower quality machinery to produce their rifles. I understand, that most of the machine marking is covered up by that layer of finishing on the HK BCG, while on the Haenel, you have no finishing on it and thus you see every machining line. But the Haenel BCG seems to do its job just fine. And i like the stainelss look of it. Do you see any advantage of that finishing on the HK BCG compared to the stainless Haenel BCG? |
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Originally Posted By ARGuy101: I agree, but would like to remind that the HK BCG has a black finishing on it. I don't think that Haenel is using lower quality machinery to produce their rifles. I understand, that most of the machine marking is covered up by that layer of finishing on the HK BCG, while on the Haenel, you have no finishing on it and thus you see every machining line. But the Haenel BCG seems to do its job just fine. And i like the stainelss look of it. Do you see any advantage of that finishing on the HK BCG compared to the stainless Haenel BCG? Originally Posted By ARGuy101: Originally Posted By Craigjones56: I do, I’ll take detailed pictures comparing it to my 416 today (time got away from me yesterday). To me the haenel appears to be slightly more refined and polished with the exception of tool marks on the bcg. Shooting suppressed will be the real test. My 416 tends to choke up suppressed depending on the kind of mags/ammo I use. I agree, but would like to remind that the HK BCG has a black finishing on it. I don't think that Haenel is using lower quality machinery to produce their rifles. I understand, that most of the machine marking is covered up by that layer of finishing on the HK BCG, while on the Haenel, you have no finishing on it and thus you see every machining line. But the Haenel BCG seems to do its job just fine. And i like the stainelss look of it. Do you see any advantage of that finishing on the HK BCG compared to the stainless Haenel BCG? You’re right both are extremely solid just nitpicking lol. The hk coating is marginally slicker and I do mean marginally. Aside from the coating it’s essentially the same bcg as far as design and what not goes. |
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Originally Posted By Craigjones56: They are indeed interchangeable! Thanks for the feedback. That is good to hear, because the CR223 lower does not have a ambi bolt lock/release, while the A3 version of the HK does. But problem is HK rifles are not available anywhere right now. So my plan is to get a CR223 and at a later time add a HK or another AMBI lower to have ambi bolt catch and finally have fully ambidextrous piston rifle that is readily available without having to fool around with BAD levers. It would be cool if you could post some pics of the interchanged uppers and lowers. I'd love to see what it looks like. |
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Here in Europe, precisely in France, nobody want them, dispite the fact that it is quality rifle. The street price on them is 1800-2000 euros, which is much less than KAC, LMT, or Noveske 3800-4000 euros. The reason of that is the weight.This rifle is a very heavy rifle, even heavier than HK, so you understand what I am talking about. |
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Originally Posted By Vlad75: Here in Europe, precisely in France, nobody want them, dispite the fact that it is quality rifle. The street price on them is 1800-2000 euros, which is much less than KAC, LMT, or Noveske 3800-4000 euros. The reason of that is the weight.This rifle is a very heavy rifle, even heavier than HK, so you understand what I am talking about. Wow, 8 pounds without an optic or full length rail. |
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Originally Posted By Vlad75: Here in Europe, precisely in France, nobody want them, dispite the fact that it is quality rifle. The street price on them is 1800-2000 euros, which is much less than KAC, LMT, or Noveske 3800-4000 euros. The reason of that is the weight.This rifle is a very heavy rifle, even heavier than HK, so you understand what I am talking about. Its 3,6 KG vs 3,8 for an HK for the full length rifles. Ain't that average weight for an AR? And are HK rifles available right now in France? |
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Originally Posted By Vlad75: Here in Europe, precisely in France, nobody want them, dispite the fact that it is quality rifle. The street price on them is 1800-2000 euros, which is much less than KAC, LMT, or Noveske 3800-4000 euros. The reason of that is the weight.This rifle is a very heavy rifle, even heavier than HK, so you understand what I am talking about. I wouldn't say nobody wants them because of the weight or because they are cheaper than the american rifles. The american rifles are more expensive because they need to be imported from the US; which is a third country from EUropean perspective, while the German made rifles can be transferred within Europe without any tax or duties on them. So just because the Haenel rifles are therefore cheaper than the US rifles in France doesn't mean nobody wants them. At 3800-4000 euros these rifles are already significantly more expensive than what they are sold for in the US, where they are sold for around 2.600 $ only. Convert that to EURO and you get 2,137.58 Euro. So the prices of these rifles are equal at their places of production. Only taxes and duties make them more expensive in one place over the other. |
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Originally Posted By boynty77: It turns out to be the same thread pitch as the G36. m15x1 rh Does anyone else have any finish damage on the side of the barrel? I sent B&T an email late last week about it but haven't heard back yet. https://i.imgur.com/lbgecEw.jpg |
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OK i bought a thread pitch gauge - it is confirmed its M14x1 RH (not M15x1RH nor M14x1LH). Serial # CHExxx220 - mine is not marked B&T, just Haenel and doesnt have the ambi bolt release. So will need an adapter from M14x1RH to 5/8x24, or M14x1RH to 1/2x28 These guys make a M14x1RH to 1/2x28 adapter ... https://www.cncwarrior.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=25092&CartID=1 |
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I think the barrels are different between the first import batch of Haenel marked CR223s and the BT-15s. For one, I notice the barrel profile of my B&T BT-15 is different from the original CR223 shown in the TFBTV coverage video, so it's possible the thread pitchs are different as well. I hope the B&T BT-15s are indeed M15x1, then I can use the Warcomp natively. I'm going to email C.G. Haenel directly with my serial and try to find out. Update received response from Haenel: “The BT-15 comes with a metric M15X1 Thread and the barrel is not chrome lined. We use our own cold hammer forged barrels from high quality steel. This is a big difference to the regular button rifled barrels.” |
Haenel CR223 and B&T BT-15 (Page 1 of 4)
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