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Posted: 8/26/2013 7:01:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wolfganggross][Edited]
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From left to right:
M777 - LC/76 this was pre m855 M778 - Tracer - LC/76 - orange tip - I had no where else to place it SS109 - Pre NATO M855 - LC/81 we didn't approve it until 1982? M855 - tin/ tungsten core - LC/98 M855 - nylon/ tungsten core - LC/98 M855A1 - LC/08 - prototype with tin/ bismuth core M855A1 - LC/11 - copper core Wolfgang ( playing around with new camera ) 
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Cool.
How are they cut so smooth? laser or heat would leave some kind of melt marks, grinder or saw blade would leave some kind of jagged edges on the case and jacket, even by enlarging the pix the cuts are clean. Can tell they are cut length wise by the witness marks on the lead. Beyond that, it beats the hell out of me. |
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For those who don't know me, been posting my OWN cutaways on the ammo board from time to time.
They are done by pulling everything all apart, cutting in half, gluing back together, and then sanding smooth. Posted for free for all to enjoy! Its been awhile and photobucket has changed there format again. Can someone please remind me how to post pictures without everyone being able to look into my account by clicking on the photo? Don't mind if you look since they have all been posted before, but would be nice to keep it private just in case. Thanks wolfgang Oh yeah, I'm unemployed too! |
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M855 - tin/ tungsten core - LC/98
M855 - nylon/ tungsten core - LC/98 Since when did m855 have a tungsten core?! 
Last i checked it was half lead, half steel and a copper jackets. The new m855A1 is either bismuth-tin alloy core with a steel tip and copper jacket or copper core with a steel tip and a copper jacket, not sure which one is actually being used. EDIT: apparently the copper core is standard on the m855a1, the tin-bismuth allow was just during testing. |
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: Since when did m855 have a tungsten core?! Last i checked it was half lead, half steel and a copper jackets. The new m855A1 is either bismuth-tin alloy core with a steel tip and copper jacket or copper core with a steel tip and a copper jacket, not sure which one is actually being used. Originally Posted By Spartikis: M855 - tin/ tungsten core - LC/98 M855 - nylon/ tungsten core - LC/98 Since when did m855 have a tungsten core?! Last i checked it was half lead, half steel and a copper jackets. The new m855A1 is either bismuth-tin alloy core with a steel tip and copper jacket or copper core with a steel tip and a copper jacket, not sure which one is actually being used. |
Lost in PA ....
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Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
They are done by pulling everything all apart, cutting in half, gluing back together, and then sanding smooth. That's how I had it figured in my head, while it obviously takes time and effort, your work pays off. They look incredible. |
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot and kill him." Mark Twain
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Before the M855A1, the military was looking for a "Green Alternative" to all the lead pollution on rifle ranges. The two rounds with the tungsten powder where final prototypes
that were made in small quantities (1,000,000) for live fire testing, July 99. They found that the "push" on the steel tip was not strong enough with the material spreading out the sides, unlike lead, in a field test at Camp Edwards, Oct 99. I had boxes in hand for both rounds and made photo copies with lot and date info. Had to label the extras as they look like normal M855 with green tips! One round that is elusive to me, and is not pictured, is a green tungsten cored (not powdered) m855 that was fired at Stewart River Alaska, August 98. Anyone have any extras laying around? |
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Thank you very much.
That is superb display. Really nice work! A great historical presentation. I personally do not believe the marketing Schtick about M855A1 as far as the "Green-ness" is concerned. For one thing, lead BULLET MATERIAL is simply NOT the toxic nightmare it is said to be by the Marxist/Green/Anarchist/Industrial-Environmental political movement. And as far as that goes, just wait until a few more billion rounds of M855A1 have been dumped into US military ranges and the "toxic effects of copper" are "discovered". Yup, we will see THAT issue looming, too. PLUS in every war since WW1 and among ALL nations, copper has almost with the first shot fired become a strategic material demanding extreme conservation with immediate replacement required. Makes no sense. Especially since iron and mild steel alternatives have been developed, are well-known and produce superb terminal ballistic performance. One downside is of course the lower mass which is a bit of a troublesome issue for small-cal bullet development but this is an obstacle that could have been overcome pretty easily. At any rate, the use of a solid copper "slug" is VERY curious to me, and sort of reeks of inside dope. Maybe John stossel needs to investigate to determine if a Retired General is on the Board of a copper mining conglomerate.... 
wolfganggross, go to your "LIBRARY" and click on the "lock" icon next to the title on the left side. You can change individual pix, etc to locked or unlocked as you will. I think they are defaulted to unlocked when you form a new folder, so beware of that. Make sure to lock up front each time. |
At the heart of catechesis we find...the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father...who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever. para 426 CCC.
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Originally Posted By wolfganggross: For those who don't know me, been posting my OWN cutaways on the ammo board from time to time. They are done by pulling everything all apart, cutting in half, gluing back together, and then sanding smooth. Posted for free for all to enjoy! Its been awhile and photobucket has changed there format again. Can someone please remind me how to post pictures without everyone being able to look into my account by clicking on the photo? Don't mind if you look since they have all been posted before, but would be nice to keep it private just in case. Thanks wolfgang Oh yeah, I'm unemployed too! I have found that the easiest way to post pics here is to use the ar15.com media server. To use that you need a gold team membership. You'll figure it out when you log in again. Thanks for the fascinating work. Bill |
"My irritability keeps me alive and kicking" --Howard Devoto
"Didn't watch it. You don't rack up 100k posts by reading the articles before commenting on them, slow poke." --Aimless
"Didn't watch it. You don't rack up 100k posts by reading the articles before commenting on them, slow poke." --Aimless
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As EVR pointed out, lead in ranges is not shown by any real evidence to be an environmental problem. Getting it OUT of ranges gets to be a surface problem because workers run into so many different ways the metal has reacted with berm/air/other bullets. But it doesn't "leach into the ground water" the way the environmental reactionaries think...that comes from knowing a little about one thing and applying it incorrectly. Modern ranges are built to prevent anything getting into the ground water anyway.
BUT... the Ordnance Corps was ready to take action on an actually non-issue. Hurrah! 
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Heinlein
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Originally Posted By EVR:
Thank you very much. That is superb display. Really nice work! A great historical presentation. I personally do not believe the marketing Schtick about M855A1 as far as the "Green-ness" is concerned. For one thing, lead BULLET MATERIAL is simply NOT the toxic nightmare it is said to be by the Marxist/Green/Anarchist/Industrial-Environmental political movement. And as far as that goes, just wait until a few more billion rounds of M855A1 have been dumped into US military ranges and the "toxic effects of copper" are "discovered". Yup, we will see THAT issue looming, too. PLUS in every war since WW1 and among ALL nations, copper has almost with the first shot fired become a strategic material demanding extreme conservation with immediate replacement required. Makes no sense. Especially since iron and mild steel alternatives have been developed, are well-known and produce superb terminal ballistic performance. One downside is of course the lower mass which is a bit of a troublesome issue for small-cal bullet development but this is an obstacle that could have been overcome pretty easily. At any rate, the use of a solid copper "slug" is VERY curious to me, and sort of reeks of inside dope. Maybe John stossel needs to investigate to determine if a Retired General is on the Board of a copper mining conglomerate....
wolfganggross, go to your "LIBRARY" and click on the "lock" icon next to the title on the left side. You can change individual pix, etc to locked or unlocked as you will. I think they are defaulted to unlocked when you form a new folder, so beware of that. Make sure to lock up front each time. But Iron/steel cored bullets are bad according to some obscure and illogical ATF ban on armor piercing ammo!!
Never mind the fact that mild steel isn't even much better at penetrating than traditional lead/copper bullets 
Until the ATF gets rid of that rule the civilian market is pretty much stuck with copper, powdered metal or lead core bullets. Yet again the government stands in the war of progress. |
| I live in the mid-Atlantic in an area of intense and prolonged fighting during the Civil War. You can find lead bullets of all types just under the surface, and eroded areas usually will show them. They are covered in a white oxide and retain their original weight. I've always been curious as to how they're supposed to 'poison the earth' if there has been no degradation since 1865. BTW, fighting was so intense in this area that examples of bullets hitting each other head-on, forming a star shape, are not rare. |
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Originally Posted By 1saxman:
I live in the mid-Atlantic in an area of intense and prolonged fighting during the Civil War. You can find lead bullets of all types just under the surface, and eroded areas usually will show them. They are covered in a white oxide and retain their original weight. I've always been curious as to how they're supposed to 'poison the earth' if there has been no degradation since 1865. BTW, fighting was so intense in this area that examples of bullets hitting each other head-on, forming a star shape, are not rare. Indeed, data was collected using just that scenario...battlefield bullets...in Norway to defeat the lead ban in Sweden a number of years ago. Battlefield bullets there were in situ since the 1600's. No lead migration... |
At the heart of catechesis we find...the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father...who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever. para 426 CCC.
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Originally Posted By Ohio_Bill:
I have found that the easiest way to post pics here is to use the ar15.com media server. To use that you need a gold team membership. You'll figure it out when you log in again. Thanks for the fascinating work. Bill Originally Posted By Ohio_Bill:
Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
For those who don't know me, been posting my OWN cutaways on the ammo board from time to time. They are done by pulling everything all apart, cutting in half, gluing back together, and then sanding smooth. Posted for free for all to enjoy! Its been awhile and photobucket has changed there format again. Can someone please remind me how to post pictures without everyone being able to look into my account by clicking on the photo? Don't mind if you look since they have all been posted before, but would be nice to keep it private just in case. Thanks wolfgang Oh yeah, I'm unemployed too! I have found that the easiest way to post pics here is to use the ar15.com media server. To use that you need a gold team membership. You'll figure it out when you log in again. Thanks for the fascinating work. Bill That was a very nice thing you did there |
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I'm sure I'm being stupid but isn't lead dug (mined) out of the ground? As in it is natural? But then again, so is C02 and that is now a "poison"... Lead is a toxic heavy metal. It's not like it's recently been called a poison. I mean the switch to UL from leaded gas happened a while ago. |
“Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Lead is a toxic heavy metal. It's not like it's recently been called a poison. I mean the switch to UL from leaded gas happened a while ago. Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I'm sure I'm being stupid but isn't lead dug (mined) out of the ground? As in it is natural? But then again, so is C02 and that is now a "poison"... Lead is a toxic heavy metal. It's not like it's recently been called a poison. I mean the switch to UL from leaded gas happened a while ago. Your statement here is exactly the type of misinformation that feeds the industrial environmental movement and deludes many. Lead in gas was dangerous because it forms an extremely fine particulate and the material is readily ingested and can migrate into water supplies, etc. Kids living near or by major highways were found to have high levels of lead in their blood and the only source could have been the lead in gas engine exhaust. Bullet lead is completely different. In the ground it is effectively inert except under rare circumstances of extremely acidic soils. Even then migration of toxic lead into water is debated. And that is RARE. |
At the heart of catechesis we find...the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father...who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever. para 426 CCC.
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Originally Posted By EVR:
Your statement here is exactly the type of misinformation that feeds the industrial environmental movement and deludes many. Lead in gas was dangerous because it forms an extremely fine particulate and the material is readily ingested and can migrate into water supplies, etc. Kids living near or by major highways were found to have high levels of lead in their blood and the only source could have been the lead in gas engine exhaust. Bullet lead is completely different. In the ground it is effectively inert except under rare circumstances of extremely acidic soils. Even then migration of toxic lead into water is debated. And that is RARE. Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I'm sure I'm being stupid but isn't lead dug (mined) out of the ground? As in it is natural? But then again, so is C02 and that is now a "poison"... Lead is a toxic heavy metal. It's not like it's recently been called a poison. I mean the switch to UL from leaded gas happened a while ago. Your statement here is exactly the type of misinformation that feeds the industrial environmental movement and deludes many. Lead in gas was dangerous because it forms an extremely fine particulate and the material is readily ingested and can migrate into water supplies, etc. Kids living near or by major highways were found to have high levels of lead in their blood and the only source could have been the lead in gas engine exhaust. Bullet lead is completely different. In the ground it is effectively inert except under rare circumstances of extremely acidic soils. Even then migration of toxic lead into water is debated. And that is RARE. I never said that bullet lead was a problem. |
“Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
I never said that bullet lead was a problem. Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I'm sure I'm being stupid but isn't lead dug (mined) out of the ground? As in it is natural? But then again, so is C02 and that is now a "poison"... Lead is a toxic heavy metal. It's not like it's recently been called a poison. I mean the switch to UL from leaded gas happened a while ago. Your statement here is exactly the type of misinformation that feeds the industrial environmental movement and deludes many. Lead in gas was dangerous because it forms an extremely fine particulate and the material is readily ingested and can migrate into water supplies, etc. Kids living near or by major highways were found to have high levels of lead in their blood and the only source could have been the lead in gas engine exhaust. Bullet lead is completely different. In the ground it is effectively inert except under rare circumstances of extremely acidic soils. Even then migration of toxic lead into water is debated. And that is RARE. I never said that bullet lead was a problem. Don't worry about it. I really couldn't tell what you were saying in your post but I knew there were those who would glom on to the whole "toxic" thing and that would send them off the trail into the thick brush. 
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At the heart of catechesis we find...the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father...who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever. para 426 CCC.
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Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Link to older pics: http://wwwar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Section/index.htm Many of my older cutaways have been redone, if you don't see powder its old. Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Originally Posted By Mav2u:
Do you have links to your other older pic cutaways? Link to older pics: http://wwwar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Section/index.htm Many of my older cutaways have been redone, if you don't see powder its old. Your URL has a missing dot between www and ar...which leads to an intercept that has nothing to do with ARFCOM. Unfortunately it looks like the link will also fail because it didn't keep up with the ammo projects content. 
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Heinlein
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Your URL has a missing dot between www and ar...which leads to an intercept that has nothing to do with ARFCOM. Unfortunately it looks like the link will also fail because it didn't keep up with the ammo projects content. Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Originally Posted By Mav2u:
Do you have links to your other older pic cutaways? Link to older pics: http://wwwar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Section/index.htm Many of my older cutaways have been redone, if you don't see powder its old. Your URL has a missing dot between www and ar...which leads to an intercept that has nothing to do with ARFCOM. Unfortunately it looks like the link will also fail because it didn't keep up with the ammo projects content. Just below the pink bar, AR15 Ammo forum Rules, on the main ammunition page, is another bar in yellow AR15 Ammo Forum FAQ. Click on this and go down to #16 Ammunition Cross Section. Funny it worked the other day?!? Thanks wolf |
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Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Just below the pink bar, AR15 Ammo forum Rules, on the main ammunition page, is another bar in yellow AR15 Ammo Forum FAQ. Click on this and go down to #16 Ammunition Cross Section. Funny it worked the other day?!? Thanks wolf Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Originally Posted By Mav2u:
Do you have links to your other older pic cutaways? Link to older pics: http://wwwar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Section/index.htm Many of my older cutaways have been redone, if you don't see powder its old. Your URL has a missing dot between www and ar...which leads to an intercept that has nothing to do with ARFCOM. Unfortunately it looks like the link will also fail because it didn't keep up with the ammo projects content. Just below the pink bar, AR15 Ammo forum Rules, on the main ammunition page, is another bar in yellow AR15 Ammo Forum FAQ. Click on this and go down to #16 Ammunition Cross Section. Funny it worked the other day?!? Thanks wolf |
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Heinlein
| http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Sections/index.htm |
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Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
For those who don't know me, been posting my OWN cutaways on the ammo board from time to time. They are done by pulling everything all apart, cutting in half, gluing back together, and then sanding smooth. Posted for free for all to enjoy! Its been awhile and photobucket has changed there format again. Can someone please remind me how to post pictures without everyone being able to look into my account by clicking on the photo? Don't mind if you look since they have all been posted before, but would be nice to keep it private just in case. Thanks wolfgang Oh yeah, I'm unemployed too! Yeah, Photobucket has gone wild. I assume NSA and so all other government agencies and large corporations have access to your photos and your jpeg generator has dope buried in the digital info. I no longer assume any privacy on my internet posted photos. {off topic rant, sorry} Anyway, thanks for the great photos. Those two on the right look like beginnings of the new barrier penetration rounds. |
“But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”—Luke 22:36, NIV
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just saw this. wow. |
Darkness there and nothing more......
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Amazing at how these posts still pop up from time to time. I looked for that picture in my records to repost but can not find it so will take another. It will have to be tonight as we are about to leave for the Blue Angels air show at Beaufort, SC.
Those M995, M993, SLAPs are tungsten semi carbide, you don't cut W2C! That's why they are intact and the hardened steel cores can be ground down. At this last SLICS show I didn't see any for sale which means the supply is drying up and will be costing even more. If you can find a SLAP under $35 you are doing good. $50 for the M993 and M995 the same or more, you just don't see them any more. Thanks for looking, wolfganggross |
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